Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Karan M
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

Guys, India has achieved a historic milestone. LRDE releases data on India's first true home grown, ground based AESA systems (apart from the radar on the CABS AEW&C, which is another achievement). These are truly modern systems and incorporate whatever we can get from the best firms - digital receievers, digital beam formers, have multiple (programmable) modes of operation, can track many targets, have significant ECCM capability.

Arudhra MPR (IAF has asked for 8 already, numbers certain to rise)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EQkI7Z9adIg/U ... +MPR-1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RWvMU3KPjzg/U ... +MPR-2.jpg

Ashwini LLTR (will replace Rohini in production, and may end up being the surveillance radar for the SRSAM program as well). Further orders likely given scale of requirement.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fHKUKW5zbsg/U ... MRSR-1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y6aGyqzA0OE/U ... MRSR-2.jpg

Note use of proven Rohini configuration for the latter.

Both are AESAs and will replace imports from Israel and France - the EL/M 2084 and Flair LLTR respectively.

They can also be used to develop systems for naval use. Also note the detection capabilities against low RCS targets (0.2 sq mtr). Both can provide surveillance against targets such as cruise missiles.

Unlike the GreenPine derived LLTR and the Thales derived MFCR, the above two systems and the one on the AEW&C are from our own stables in every sense, and hence, we now have the ability to move onto even more advanced systems in the future.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Philip »

Huge development.Any idea of size/weight for naval use?
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Philip »

Our designs of armoured vehicles are generally inferior ergonomically when compared with firang wares.Our designers need to go to a school of industrial design so that they can refine the products designed,which v.importantly have to provide comfortable environments for the crews in order to reduce fatigue.The Tata designs are v.interesting,but we see no tracked desi ICV.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by JE Menon »

For a long time we have operated on the basis that we cannot afford form, only substance. Form is a value addition that we could not truly afford. But that has been slowly changing, and the change will accelerate as expertise is transmitted osmotically between and within sectors...

Right now it's tatty no doubt
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Victor »

JE Menon wrote:For a long time we have operated on the basis that we cannot afford form, only substance. Form is a value addition that we could not truly afford. But that has been slowly changing, and the change will accelerate as expertise is transmitted osmotically between and within sectors...
True that. Check out the transformation of Rustom II from a cross between a cake and Qutab Minar to today's bona fide UAV:
2012: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DRDO_Rustom.JPG
2014: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fWuP_QP2rvg/U ... 770195.JPG
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by member_20317 »

About the extra fuel tanks on Arjun - aren't they mounted a bit too high for the turret to make a full turn.

Back side of Arjun with Rustom 2 obstructing the foreground:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fWuP_QP2rvg/U ... 770195.JPG

This shows a better mounting, nahi kya?:
https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.g ... -0082g.jpg
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Austin »

Arudhra and Ashwani should bode well for future of AESA Development , Any Information on BMD LRTR from Defexpo ?
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by JE Menon »

You're right Victor. That's an early example. However, there is still a very long way to go before our own design sensibility emerges prominently as part of a new paradigm, and eventually becomes a significant or even dominant part of the global platform in design ... What is certain is that we cannot do that without adequately learning from the German, Japanese, American, Spanish, French sensibilities that prevail today. What we can do better than anyone else, civilisationally, is to synthesise; fortunately, that's where the world is heading.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by pralay »

ravi_g wrote:About the extra fuel tanks on Arjun - aren't they mounted a bit too high for the turret to make a full turn.
The fuel tanks don't actually obstruct the turret to make full turn(gun is angled up in that part), but its apparent that the gun can not be lowered when over the fuel-tanks.
1. It is bad for brawling(close range combat), if an enemy light tank comes and hides behind while shooting holes in the backside, it will be very hard situation to deal with(although I am not sure if such tactics are used these days).
2. The fuel-tanks will pop out in hull down position(when viewed from sides) as they are as high as the turret
3. The fuel-tanks will increase overall silhouette from side.
As Arjun has very accurate gun, general strategy will be to keep distance and kill the enemy from ranges.
But still those external fuel tanks should be lowered permanently or should be swiveled down when turret goes back.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by rohitvats »

Karan M wrote:Guys, India has achieved a historic milestone. LRDE releases data on India's first true home grown, ground based AESA systems (apart from the radar on the CABS AEW&C, which is another achievement). These are truly modern systems and incorporate whatever we can get from the best firms - digital receievers, digital beam formers, have multiple (programmable) modes of operation, can track many targets, have significant ECCM capability.

Arudhra MPR (IAF has asked for 8 already, numbers certain to rise) <SNIP>

Ashwini LLTR (will replace Rohini in production, and may end up being the surveillance radar for the SRSAM program as well). Further orders likely given scale of requirement.<SNIP>
Brilliant news!!!

Completes the information set I had compiled on the radars for a write-up - as I wrote some where else, there is a veritable silent revolution happening in the radar space. Indian radars are fulfilling requirements across the board in three services. And numbers committed and being talked about are huge to say the least.

BTW - wasn't Chorgupta claiming that Arudhra is simply the name of Israel EL/M-2048 being inducted by the IAF (I think 7 or 8) and there exists no such domestic program? :P
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by member_20292 »

Victor wrote: Rustom II from a cross between a cake and Qutab Minar:
:D :rotfl:
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Brando »

Victor wrote: True that. Check out the transformation of Rustom II from a cross between a cake and Qutab Minar to today's bona fide UAV:
2012: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DRDO_Rustom.JPG
2014: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fWuP_QP2rvg/U ... 770195.JPG
Empennage still looks a little tacky IMO but at least the ghastly paint scheme has gone. One wonders if the boys who paint these vehicles and missiles for the DRDO get all their inspiration from comic books and GI JOE toys.
Last edited by Brando on 13 Feb 2014 18:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Brando »

Karan M wrote: Unlike the GreenPine derived LLTR and the Thales derived MFCR, the above two systems and the one on the AEW&C are from our own stables in every sense, and hence, we now have the ability to move onto even more advanced systems in the future.
Swordfish LRTR (not LLTR) is a X-band AESA while the above are S-band. The MPR radar looks very promising as a search radar should be considered for naval use as well. It would be comparable in terms of range and abilities to the SMART-L radar through perhaps significantly cheaper.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by abhik »

AFAIK those early pictures of a mock up the Rustom which was still very much under development. And before you guys start Rona & Dhona on the quality of Mock-ups etc by the DRDO please spare a think how much a cash strapped organization should spend on these given their limited marketing value.
Karan M
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

Brando wrote:
Karan M wrote: Unlike the GreenPine derived LLTR and the Thales derived MFCR, the above two systems and the one on the AEW&C are from our own stables in every sense, and hence, we now have the ability to move onto even more advanced systems in the future.
Swordfish LRTR (not LLTR) is a X-band AESA while the above are S-band. The MPR radar looks very promising as a search radar should be considered for naval use as well. It would be comparable in terms of range and abilities to the SMART-L radar through perhaps significantly cheaper.
The Swordfish/LRTR derived from the GreenPine is L Band. The MFCR is S Band. But both were indigenized derivatives of the originals. These two OTOH are local in genesis and signify a coming of age in AESAs.
Karan M
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

Brando wrote:
Victor wrote: True that. Check out the transformation of Rustom II from a cross between a cake and Qutab Minar to today's bona fide UAV:
2012: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DRDO_Rustom.JPG
2014: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fWuP_QP2rvg/U ... 770195.JPG
Empennage still looks a little tacky IMO but at least the ghastly paint scheme has gone. One wonders if the boys who paint these vehicles and missiles for the DRDO get all their inspiration from comic books and GI JOE toys.
The Rustom-II in the first pic is a mock up.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

rohitvats wrote:
Karan M wrote:Guys, India has achieved a historic milestone. LRDE releases data on India's first true home grown, ground based AESA systems (apart from the radar on the CABS AEW&C, which is another achievement). These are truly modern systems and incorporate whatever we can get from the best firms - digital receievers, digital beam formers, have multiple (programmable) modes of operation, can track many targets, have significant ECCM capability.

Arudhra MPR (IAF has asked for 8 already, numbers certain to rise) <SNIP>

Ashwini LLTR (will replace Rohini in production, and may end up being the surveillance radar for the SRSAM program as well). Further orders likely given scale of requirement.<SNIP>
Brilliant news!!!

Completes the information set I had compiled on the radars for a write-up - as I wrote some where else, there is a veritable silent revolution happening in the radar space. Indian radars are fulfilling requirements across the board in three services. And numbers committed and being talked about are huge to say the least.

BTW - wasn't Chorgupta claiming that Arudhra is simply the name of Israel EL/M-2048 being inducted by the IAF (I think 7 or 8) and there exists no such domestic program? :P
There are some other interesting programs also underway. There is one called Ashwin (I think) which is based on an upscaled Aslesha on a vehicle, for IAF requirements and possibly another derivative (for the Navy) for light ships.
Once these programs are done and dusted, there are Project India and other far more advanced programs to consider.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Philip »

Russia keen to sell anti-missile defence system to India.

https://www.google.co.in/search?newwind ... mIYmsQ65Aw
Amrita Nair-Ghaswalla

Hard-sells fully operational combat model at Defexpo
Mumbai, February 12:

Even as the Indian Army has entered the global market to buy short-range surface-to-air missile defence systems, Russia is keen to offer its anti-missile system Tor-M2KM to India, with the latter slated to undergo a series of tests.

Exhibited outside of Russia for the first time, a fully operational combat model of the Tor-M2KM anti missile system was displayed at the Defexpo-2014 exhibition held in Delhi recently.

Defence purchases have risen from just over $200 million in 2001 to over $14 billion currently. As part of the recently announced tender for 52 short-range air defence systems to form two missile regiments in the Indian Army, Russia has decided to test a modified version of the Tor-M2KM mounted on a wheeled chassis manufactured by Tata Motors.

Incidentally, Tata Motors also unveiled two new combat vehicles at Defexpo 2014. The Kestrel, an 8x8 wheeled armoured amphibious vehicle designed and developed indigenously by Tata and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), and the Light Armoured Multipurpose Vehicle (LAMV), also developed indigenously, with technical input from Supacat, were showcased on the occasion.

Visitors to the Defexpo-2014 were able to check out a real combat model, said Vyacheslav Kartashov, Kupol’s assistant director for military technical cooperation and government orders. According to the company, Tor-M2KM is a highly versatile air defence system that can be mounted on a wide variety of platforms, including railway cars, rooftops and ships.

Yuri Baykov, spokesman for Almaz-Antey, the manufacturer, has said that the versatile nature of the Tor-M2KM missile significantly enhances the scope of its operational deployment, as the system can be used to protect stadiums from airborne attacks during large sports events.
Neutralise weapons

The main mission is to neutralise precision guided weapons, the spokesman added. The Tor-M2KM is equipped with modern electronics and radar capable of detecting and handling up to 48 targets, displaying information on the 10 most dangerous ones, and destroying four air targets simultaneously.

Rahul Madhavan, who leads the aerospace and defence sector with the US-India Business Council, noted in a statement, “Our two democratic governments have made tremendous progress in advancing technology release procedures and streamlining the acquisition process to accommodate two bureaucracies.

While seeking to advance our industrial cooperation, we also hope to advance our defence and strategic partnership.”
(This article was published on February 12, 2014)
Any comparison with rival systems?

PS: Tata Motors headed to Russia, again

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 682020.ece
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

DRDO's Daksh derived UGVs at Defexpo.

The armed (7.62mm Machine Gun and 30 mm grenade launcher + surveillance optics) named the Rudra

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-x0tM-ev7amE/U ... C08529.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jaWjxuLkXOo/U ... C08531.JPG

Daksh and Daksh Mini
The Daksh and a new NBC UGV able to navigate in hard places (check out the tracks)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2I31bXLT0Kk/U ... C08533.JPG
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KKShNBwwKjA/U ... C08532.JPG
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

DRDO (NPOL)s new sonar for small ships - Abhay
http://i.imgur.com/7xDSXyY.jpg

The Low Frequency dunking sonar from NPOL
http://i.imgur.com/mJaYz1V.jpg

Mareech (NPOL) towed array, towed and expendable decoy system for torpedos
http://i.imgur.com/ZWLCqpj.jpg

DRDO (LRDE) XV-2004, substantially refined and matured (TWS of 100 targets f.e.)
http://i.imgur.com/op4T3Ev.jpg

The LRDE SAR package in devpt for the Rustom-2
http://i.imgur.com/ShBgf9b.jpg
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

IRDE systems at Defexpo - multiple different classes of systems there:
http://imageshack.com/a/img607/2042/gu3d.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img855/1697/v525.jpg

HEMRL BMCS for 155mm
http://imageshack.com/a/img842/2244/jhiq.jpg
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

Brahmos Blocks explained:
http://imageshack.com/a/img703/1986/jjga.jpg

Tata Kestrel (very high import content, hope they indigenize if ordered in volume)
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-27.jpg
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-29.jpg
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

DRDO (LASTEC) ordnance disposal laser system

Board says 250+mtr range, and successfully demonstrated to IA, mounted on Tata LSV

http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-44.jpg
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-45.jpg
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-42.jpg
Karan M
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

Russian Weapons of Mass Distraction at DEfexpo

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bf5KuEtCUAARXfW.jpg:large
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Will »

Karan M wrote:Russian Weapons of Mass Distraction at DEfexpo

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bf5KuEtCUAARXfW.jpg:large
Now you know how the Russians manage to sell us so many weapons :rotfl:
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Sagar G »

Karan M wrote:Russian Weapons of Mass Distraction at DEfexpo

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bf5KuEtCUAARXfW.jpg:large
Did any SDRE named Arjun bitchslapped them later ???
Karan M wrote:DRDO (LASTEC) ordnance disposal laser system

Board says 250+mtr range, and successfully demonstrated to IA, mounted on Tata LSV

http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-44.jpg
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-45.jpg
http://www.rushlane.com/wp-content/uplo ... 014-42.jpg
Another good usage I can think of is to use them to bhasma the ding dongs of jihadi-PA munnas. Will cause major takleef and fear among them.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by titash »

Karan M wrote:DRDO (NPOL)s new sonar for small ships - Abhay
http://i.imgur.com/7xDSXyY.jpg

The Low Frequency dunking sonar from NPOL
http://i.imgur.com/mJaYz1V.jpg

DRDO (LRDE) XV-2004, substantially refined and matured (TWS of 100 targets f.e.)
http://i.imgur.com/op4T3Ev.jpg

Karan M,
Where are these products currently seeing (or projected to see) use?

I thought the LFDS died with the Dhruv, seeing that the SeaKings, Kamovs, and projected NMRH will come with their own imported dunking sonars. Ditto for the XV-2004...are these products going to be used in any numbers? Hopefully...

The ABHAY might be used on the 16 'janata' class shallow water ASW boats or perhaps refitted to the Pauk class...it would be a gross injustice if the P-28s mounted them; that ship should have a full HMS/ATAS suite given its otherwise low sensor/armament

Thanks,
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

Titash, the project is apparently alive and a variant developed for IMRH

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 227728.ece

KOCHI, October 12, 2013
The low-frequency dunking sonar (LFDS) developed by DRDO’s Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL) at Thrikkakara has shown steadfast progress in trials and is on the threshold of induction into naval inventory, Rear Admiral D.M. Sudan, Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Air), has said.

Helicopter-borne dunking sonars play a key role in the detection of enemy submarines. NPOL’s LFDS programme, which carries forward its experience of developing dunking sonar Mihir, had made substantial progress with encouraging results in extensive trials on board the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). We would not let this effort be wasted, said the Rear Admiral, asking sonar scientists to give the programme a final push to make the system worthy of induction.

Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory Director S. Anantha Narayanan said efforts were on to simultaneously fashion an enhanced version of the sonar for fitment on the Navy’s Multi-Role Helicopter (MRH), whose acquisition is under way.

On the sidelines of a workshop on ‘Challenges in Development of Airborne Systems and Sensors’, Rear Admiral Sudan later added that field evaluation trials of the helicopters competing in the MRH bid was over and contract negotiations would start very soon.

“Offset issues are being deliberated at the moment,” he said. (Helicopters NH-90, jointly developed by AgustaWestland and Eurocopter and Sikrosky’s S-70B are vying to win the contract for purchase of 16 MRH.)
Abhay sonar is meant for the smaller ASW class boats, coastal surveillance and patrol boats as you say.

About the one area where NPOL is still maturing its products are towed array sonars but even those programs continue with Naval support.

Some more naval stuff
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yF3XWcsR_2Q/U ... ines-1.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ivhjemPqLFs/U ... TRITON.jpg
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Karan M »

xv-2004 may make it onto the Kamovs & variants on CG aircraft/inductions, and Rustom-2.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Philip »

I'm all for acquiring with extreme indecent haste those "weapons of mass distraction"! Weapons which can defeat any army what?!

The new dunking sonar meant for ASW helos and smaller patrol craft,has perhaps taken the example of the Soviet sonar standardised for both Pauk and Kamov helos.It makes sense to develop a sonar that can be fitted to multiple platforms,at sea and in the air.We however do have reports of German TAS sonars also being acquired for our surface warships.One wonders why we have no indigenous programme for the same,or do we?
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Rahul M »

is there a HAL stall ? if so could anyone ask about the status of LUH and medium helo ?
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Austin »

Karan M wrote:Russian Weapons of Mass Distraction at DEfexpo

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bf5KuEtCUAARXfW.jpg:large
Hahaa Cute one ....At AI had many cute Indian girls on the stalls

here is more on WMD from Defexpo :)

http://gurkhan.blogspot.in/2014/02/blog-post_9.html

Another one DGMF Lieutenant-General of India S.Kulkarni, meeting rep of Uralvagonzavod headed by Oleg Sienko

http://www.uvz.ru/i/att/pic/r438t37i12364.jpg
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Philip »

Phewww!!! How I would love to be remote controlled by those WMDs!

On a more boring note,The Germs are about to clinch a sonar deal for the IN,details in the naval td.
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by merlin »

Philip wrote:Phewww!!! How I would love to be remote controlled by those WMDs!

On a more boring note,The Germs are about to clinch a sonar deal for the IN,details in the naval td.
Isn't that an active towed sonar? What about a passive one?
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by Austin »

Looks like new Pantsir-S1 has been proposed for IA requirement , 16 missile but no Guns compared to previous 8 missile and 2 30 mm Guns

http://i.imgur.com/9DoQ03z.jpg
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by sum »

NPOL’s LFDS programme, which carries forward its experience of developing dunking sonar Mihir, had made substantial progress with encouraging results in extensive trials on board the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). We would not let this effort be wasted, said the Rear Admiral, asking sonar scientists to give the programme a final push to make the system worthy of induction.
Truely appreciate the IN for their perseverance and foresight in these matters!
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Re: Defexpo India 2014 : News Discussion & Pictures

Post by srai »

Locked