Boot out the old and bring in new blood?

shiv
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Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2008 05:21

Satya_anveshi wrote: For gods sake...let this place be for jingoes who are otherwise shunned like rodents elsewhere in Indian media.


Not at the expense of creating an environment on BR in which this forum serves as an oil-droplet "dar-ul-jingos" where people holding contrary opinions disliked by mythical "jingos" can be vilified and defamed in less than parliamentary language. What people in the dar ul jingo do not see or are not bothered about is that there are others with other views who are equally not traitors who get put off and stop visiting or posting on a thread making a particular thread give a false impression of "broad consensus", when all that has occurred is a driving out of contrary opinion holders by foul language, sarcasm, sheer crowd pressure and defamation .The situation is not unlike the way minorities or people who think differently are cleared from God's holy places like Pakistan or Makkah.

It was the moderators duty to ensure that this did not happen and they did not - with myself being a prime culprit in failing to see the degeneration from a thread for many views to a place for those who are shunned everywhere else to say whatever they wanted about anyone whose opinions were disliked. BRF then became a kind of mirror image of various fora or other sites in which disgruntled people could collect and vent and post links to other fora in which people were doing the exact opposite thing of collecting and venting about things they could not say on BRF.

Long ago I put an end to this "alter ego" relationship of BRF with Pakistani sites. But we now have enough people sick of BR to have "wars" just like two Pakistani sites used to rival each other. This is a downslide for BRF. It was fortuitous that India Forum did not go that way. But there are new places which collect people who have been driven out of here either by banning or by crowd pressure who go and snipe on there and cause counter sniping on here and much giggling and fun and people who believe it is all tamasha. It may well be tamasha with people taking themselves so seriously - but I see the degeneration of BRF and its insiduous and needless "rivalry" with other sites as anything BUT tamasha.

This must stop.

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Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2008 05:58

Sadly BRF has peaked and lost direction as forward looking approach with Independent thinking is giving way for looking back to bad bad bad past and borrowed thinking .


I agree with this and this is why we are completely unable to generate the kind of workers and work that it took to produce BRM and later SRR. We are now a place where a group of self satisfied people collect to pat themselves on the back and compliment their own presumed forward thinking.

This might be sad in some ways - but probably the best for India in the long term as new sites crop up that allow thinking and sharing of diverse and new opinions.

People who are willing to stick their necks out and bust their butts are neither tolerated nor encouraged any more, and BRF is now popular like IPL which is fine, but is no longer able to keep the best. Neck sticking is allowed, but butt busting has no takers. So we get a forum for timepass itinerants and we blindly archive whole series of flamewars imagining that people will want to sift through all the junk to find a few nuggets of information.
Last edited by shiv on 05 Jun 2008 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby satyarthi » 05 Jun 2008 06:39

shiv wrote:
Sadly BRF has peaked and lost direction as forward looking approach with Independent thinking is giving way for looking back to bad bad bad past and borrowed thinking .


I agree with this and this is why we are completely unable to generate the kind of workers and work that it took to produce BRM and later SRR. We are now a place where a group of self satisfied people collect to pat themselves on the back and compliment their own presumed forward thinking.

Is it completely the present BRF members fault that the spat happened?

One can understand the demand for not taking names while criticizing scientists whose work is not available for public scrutiny. But why was such a big deal made in withholding criticism of GOI? As I recall one particular viewpoint was that "BRF should consider current GOI as their own GOI", and show a unified front of support for GOI, irrespective of which party was ruling.

I failed to understand the rationale for this. And especially the bitterness generated on this count. Politicians' actions are available for public scrutiny to a much larger degree than say a scientist's. So, why couldn't one criticize them? Of course parliamentary language needs to be used at all times. But this expected deification of GOI was strange.

So, before we go into a deep lament mode, we should also hold those who broke away to their part of the blame.

Along with this "deification" of GOI, one can also see some other strange behaviors. There is a distinct "GOI deification" school of thought which wishes to call to question and punish all those who outrage the holy-book (constitution), Gods (Gandhi, Nehru), prophets (PMs), icons (flag etc). Somehow this new "religion" is supposed to be followed by all present day Indians, even when the present religion, goes against other religions follows by them.

I submit that, I love and worship Bharat Mata, and that is part of my "religion". This new " religion" that involves worshiping GOI, is not necessarily contradictory to it, but I would hold it below the other one. Someone else can of course make a different choice. But why should people who hold "Bharat-Mata" at a higher level than "India that is Bharat" be made to feel as if they don't belong in this forum.

I think there is space for both religions on the BRF, and one side should not try to impose one's religion on other participants.
Last edited by satyarthi on 05 Jun 2008 06:52, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2008 06:50

satyarthi wrote:Is it completely the present BRF members fault that the spat happened?


No.

In fact I believe BRF needs change from admin level down. The people who maintain the military sites are he only "essential" people of BR. But I believe people like myself are becoming more of a liability than an asset by Musharraffing change.

It is ages since BR voted in new forum admins, and while many active admins have receded into the background or retired we have the same old bunch holding the reins.

I see some loyal BR candidates as good admin material and this time - if we get a new bunch, I might just bow out and join the hoi polloi. Maybe this should go on a separate thread.

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Postby satyarthi » 05 Jun 2008 07:06

shiv wrote:I see some loyal BR candidates as good admin material and this time - if we get a new bunch, I might just bow out and join the hoi polloi.
By all means please add any new admins as needed. A while ago names like N^3 and jcage were mentioned.

But why would YOU bow out? That would be a big loss!

As it is we are talking about recovering from losses, it doesn't make sense to add to them.

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Postby ShauryaT » 05 Jun 2008 07:32

JCage, seems to have completely disappeared. I hope all is OK with him.

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Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2008 07:46

ShauryaT wrote:JCage, seems to have completely disappeared. I hope all is OK with him.


JCage was trolled out of the forum by people who are still on the forum.

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Postby Rahul M » 05 Jun 2008 07:49

can't we have him back ?? may be with another handle ??

his absence is a big loss to the forum.

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Postby csharma » 05 Jun 2008 07:50

shiv, what do you mean by trolled out? Asked to leave.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 05 Jun 2008 07:51

Bliss to pring pack Mullah Mahendra. Victim of collateral damage. :oops: :(
Rakesh used 200kT and on the wrong person when 5kT would have been appropriate on the right person.
Last edited by enqyoobOLD on 05 Jun 2008 07:52, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2008 07:52

Rahul M wrote:can't we have him back ?? may be with another handle ??

his absence is a big loss to the forum.


JCage's decision was his own, no doubt expedited by a few people.

But why Jcage - you are admin material yourself.

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Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2008 08:25

Its a good idea. I had myself suggested a sort of Kamraj plan of rotating Admins to let in new thinking. It is still on offer.

Maybe those who went away should be invited too while at it. After all their language is being used here.

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Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Jun 2008 09:22

It is ages since BR voted in new forum admins, and while many active admins have receded into the background or retired we have the same old bunch holding the reins.


Some seem to have been raptured. I do agree that new facilitators could had some punch and clarity to this site. I also agree that some present admins are close to their best-by date.

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Postby Avarachan » 05 Jun 2008 09:40

shiv wrote:
Rahul M wrote:can't we have him back ?? may be with another handle ??

his absence is a big loss to the forum.


JCage's decision was his own, no doubt expedited by a few people.


Please give JCage my regards. I, too, wish he would return to BRF (and that whoever trolled him off would be kicked off themselves).

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Postby Nayak » 05 Jun 2008 09:51

ramana wrote:Its a good idea. I had myself suggested a sort of Kamraj plan of rotating Admins to let in new thinking. It is still on offer.

Maybe those who went away should be invited too while at it. After all their language is being used here.


Does this mean that some of the heavy-weights who were exiled, can come back ?

I mean particularly GJ and Alok N.

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Postby Rahul Shukla » 05 Jun 2008 10:23

There needs to be a grand reconcilation on BR. We need to ignore our petty differences for the greater good. It is a big turn-off watching senior members and adminullahs declare jihad on each other. People may choose to come back or they may not, but a call must go out and they should be respectfully requested to return.

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Postby Satya_anveshi » 05 Jun 2008 10:30

shiv wrote:
satyarthi wrote:Is it completely the present BRF members fault that the spat happened?


No.

In fact I believe BRF needs change from admin level down. The people who maintain the military sites are he only "essential" people of BR. But I believe people like myself are becoming more of a liability than an asset by Musharraffing change.

It is ages since BR voted in new forum admins, and while many active admins have receded into the background or retired we have the same old bunch holding the reins.

I see some loyal BR candidates as good admin material and this time - if we get a new bunch, I might just bow out and join the hoi polloi. Maybe this should go on a separate thread.


Firstly, Shiv, what I meant in that post of mine you quoted, that this forum being related to defence/strat, it is normal of people who come here to hold right of center views. These views, IMO, act as a balance for the views politicos might take in regard to vote banks or the indian media, which is notoriously leftist.

Now, on the aspect of deterioration of quality, I believe there have been some changes in the BRF in not so distant past which have contributed to this "perception."

- Earlier the admin policy was strict. I still recall Alok N referring Vulcan to post here and asking him to be cautious in his postings. It is unfortunate these two gems don't post here anymore.

- Formation/Existence of nukkad, camera, penis etc like threads, which are not really quality products consistent with other threads of BRF (I know I can expect some brickbats) is enabler of that perception or at least attracting less rigorous postors(I don't mean n3).

- As satyarthi mentioned, it is just the situation we are in, this nuke deal has broken the strategic community like nothing else. So, you guys just need to carry on with a big danda till this is over.

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Postby Anant » 05 Jun 2008 10:47

I've been lurking for nearly a decade now. I heard about BRF in 1998. I miss some of the old folks like Kaushal etc. Shiv is right in so far as the forum has become lots more personal and lot less substantive. The main reason I don't post to be quite honest is that there are cliques on here, much like any other place, and outsider opinions are often rejected by such cliques ad hominem. The collegial spirit that used to exist on here ages ago is fast disappearing and perhaps new blood can solve it. Whatever is the solution, I wish BRF well. The people who run this place have real jobs and I admire what they do on the side. Yet, the level of interpersonal attacks and ganging up has to stop. I think it's a maturity issue quite frankly.

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Postby Rahul M » 05 Jun 2008 10:52

There needs to be a grand reconcilation on BR. We need to ignore our petty differences for the greater good. People may come back or they may not, but a call must go out and they must be respectfully requested to return.


I agree whole heartedly !
from the top of my head: GJ, AlokN,JC and some more who do not post any more.

In the recent past, more so over the last six months I've noticed a gradual decline in BRF's discussion level.
there are many posters who post just to score a few brownie points in endless arguments which are entirely devoid of substance.

Of late, BRF's tolerance of far right/paranoid views has also gone up a notch, much to the exasperation of posters with more moderate viewpoints.

And the problem of proliferation of such posters lie in the fact that anybody and everybody with a different POV is hounded.

The symptom is even more evident in the Military fora, which IMO is BRF's
raison d'etre.
Most posts are one liners intent on showing the posters deep understanding of the complex issues at hand, while a cursory glance shows that even elementary knowledge or understanding is absent.
As a result, there are very few actual discussions in that fora.
The way out is stricter policing, IMO.

- Formation/Existence of nukkad, camera, penis etc like threads, which are not really quality products consistent with other threads of BRF (I know I can expect some brickbats) is enabler of that perception or at least attracting less rigorous postors(I don't mean n3).

this is one development which I support, if only because it keeps other threads free of clutter and lets others know about a member's stand on general affairs.
The pressure cooker effect, if you will. :wink:
Last edited by Rahul M on 05 Jun 2008 11:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2008 10:57

One thing I always admired about Rakesh was his "adi kollu" attitude to anyone who was disrupting the forum with mindless clutter or any other irritant. I did not necessarily agree with him - but it certainly helped populate the forum with only serious minded people.

Those were the days before the admin warning thread - which is itself only a couple of years old, and it was also the day before we went into a phase of Track Pee Diplomacy with a lone resident Paki and assorted other trolls.

Ruthless weeding out without warning has its uses because 90% of people who post don't even need warnings. They just participate without creating any ripples. All needless ripple makers could be weeded out with no mercy.

The "softer" admin policy actually allowed the proliferation of trolls and people whose posts can be completely ignored without missing anything at all.

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Postby Philip » 05 Jun 2008 11:11

Right on! BR has to get "back to basics",feee independent debate without getting personal on relevant issues,a Forum for intelligent thought and expression,humour very welcome too.The cut and thrust of debate can be made without viciousness.Authenticity of information (without allowing classified info.revealed) on matters of discussion is what has made BR's reputation.I was also told by a former high ranking service veteran,still connected to military matters,who checks the site regularly, that BR was getting to be a bit too chauvanistic and could return to its objectivity.If the admins keep this goal alive,"what we worry?".

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Postby Satya_anveshi » 05 Jun 2008 11:15

shiv wrote:One thing I always admired about Rakesh was his "adi kollu" attitude to anyone who was disrupting the forum with mindless clutter or any other irritant. I did not necessarily agree with him - but it certainly helped populate the forum with only serious minded people.


It would have been better for the forum if Rev. Rakesh Koshy had some strategic insight too to do a quick pros/cons analysis before he took out his hammer to boot out every kind of participants. People are not like robots who come only in 'serious' mode. Further, posters / posts are driven by the events mostly. So, if there is a big dhamaka tomorrow, sure enough all those past posts will show up (barring some).

As I understand, he was cental to booting out Alok, Vulcan, and SS etc.

Now that the topic has come, where is Calvin? I know not many here miss him, but in most cases he was also a great source of moderation on the forum.

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Postby ASPuar » 05 Jun 2008 11:16

I felt JCage was frequently a voice of reason, and a welcome visitor to the forum.

Its true, trollage has increased, and there has been an overproliferation of testosterone fuelled typists.

The forum these days is collecting a lot of "Arise and Awake", and bumlicking sycophancy towards certain viewpoints, and virulent attacks against those who do not appreciate them.

If we're not careful, we'll end up looking like Free Republic, viz. populated by people who think its their right to make largely irrelevant and opinionated comments, packaged off as facts.

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Postby andy B » 05 Jun 2008 11:23

Hi all,

Please let me introduce myself, my name is Anand Barve. I have been reading BRF since about 98/99. I still remember how the forum looked in its old guise. As a kid I always wanted to join the IAF and be a fighter pilot. Unfortunately I got glasses when in year 11 and it broke me so I had to give up my childhood dream. I moved out of India to the Land of OZ after year 12.

Today BRF helps keep my flame for military aviation alive, even though I work in the Finance industry which has no relation whatsoever to aviation. BRF is something that I check out every single day (multiple times some days) it takes my mind off work and I get to read stuff about a topic that I am still deeply passionate about.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone from Shankar to Vivek to Cairn, Igorr and all other BRFites. It’s been great reading your posts.

On a more serious note, it’s quite sad to see some of the senior members bickering and fighting over very small issues that really most of the times are caused by ego clashes. I have never posted on this forum for 5 years but having Jcage leave I thought I should put my 2 cents in.

I am more of a believer in the admins adopting a serious policy for people who make irrelevant or unnecessary comment. I hope that this issue can be settled out ASAP as it’s a waste of time to discuss about.

Admins is there any way that we can get in touch with Jcage and just let him know that the people that ticked him off did not represent the view of BRF as whole.

Kind Regards

Anand.

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Postby Jagan » 05 Jun 2008 11:26

FYI. Sunil and GJ were never banned. they left on their own - out of frustration on various things. There never was any barrier for them to post on BRF if they wanted to. I did try to tempt GJman to come to the dark side, but he remained strong :D

I never had an idea that Jcage left till recently when shiv mentioned it on one fo the threads.

Others were ofcourse banned - for reasons they very well know.

Personally, I miss TSJones as well. :)

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Postby Arun_S » 05 Jun 2008 11:31

I do not wish to speak on behalf of JCage, but last I had conversation with him, he is dealing with personal issues, that are much more important and time consuming.

Just pray for his well being and by Ishwar's grace he will spring back in action.

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Postby Nayak » 05 Jun 2008 11:35

One more whine, Adminullahs have no sense of humor and eveready to lower the boom on mortals.

:(( :(( :((

Police the Military thread as strictly as you please but leeway must be granted on the TECO forum.

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Postby Jagan » 05 Jun 2008 11:35

I personally like the moderator model from keyforums -unfortunately i dont think we have the software features to enforce the same (Voting, warnings, etc).

mods can be rotated - and there should probably be a compulsory time off after each term. (dunno if it makes sense)


A few names that I would throw - RayC, ASPaur, Mort, Cyb, jais, rishi, sumeet, vivekA - but who is willing to wear the crown of thorns? (there are more names that deserve to be there, but these are what i can recall on top of my mind)


Sarcasm switch should probably be in OFF for all mods (enqyoob and singha, i guess that rules you out? :D

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Postby Raja Ram » 05 Jun 2008 11:42

I have been on BR ever since the individual sites were created and have seen many veterans and gurus on the forum. But always remained a student who could learn a lot by being here in my thinking. I have also occassionally shared my own views (rambles).

FWIW, I do not think there is anything wrong with the present Bradmins. They are still doing a fine job. With regard to slide in quality of postings and tolerance, it is not going to be arrested by changing the admins or even adding to it.

What is needed is four simple rules to be followed by those using the forum

1. If you are new, DO NOT post, but read a few threads and get to know about topics, postors and BR expectations.

2. If you want to post, type what you want to post, READ IT ONCE, this time as if some one else is reading it, check if it is a personal attack or can be construed as one, see if it is presenting an idea in an unoffensive way, does it avoid sharing information that shoud not be shared, is the post in line with the subject - ONLY THEN click the submit button

3. Be tolerant and have a sense of humour; this is just a forum of people who share a common interest and a common passion for India. Do not assume that opposing view point expressed to yours is an attack on you. Be open to accept that the other person may be right. Even if a person is a jerk leave it to the Admin to deal with. If they are untolerable just a quite word with admins will do. They have a process that seems to work.

4. Even when you are a veteran and an acknowledged guru or admin, follow the above three rules and BR will regain quality and focus that seems to be slipping.

I am just an ordinary postor here and do not qualify in any way to be advising a fine bunch of fellow Indians whom I have come to respect, know and like. But sometimes it is also important that the ordinary folks views to be heard too. Hence this submission.

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Postby Rahul M » 05 Jun 2008 11:49

IMO, best way to select new mods would be for BRadmins to put their head together and put their choices to ballot.

democracy, as in general voting isn't going to help us improve BRF's standards. Better to leave the selection to the hands of the few trusted ones.

JMT.

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Postby amit » 05 Jun 2008 12:04

If I may add.

Senior members – especially Admins – not only need to be fair and balanced in what they post, they also need to appear to be fair and balanced.

The problem, as I saw it in the nuclear threads was that intemperate posting by ordinary members were tolerated and, in some extreme cases even applauded. I would guess inadvertently since it is such a high-octane subject.

However, according to the law of unintended consequences, that sent a very wrong signal, not only to these posters – who occasionally came out of the woodwork, made an outrageous post which poured spleen into the thread and disappeared - but also to the general mass of BRFites.

By all means all politicians, irrespective of how high a post they hold must be held accountable and even ridiculed if they prove to be wrong. But what purpose does it serve to equate them with Nightsoil or call them a constable or head constable and insinuate that they have a World Bank job on hold till such time that they remit public office? Did it contribute to the general debate?

I think Shiv’s intervention was long overdue. Since then, if you notice, the quality of debate and information on both the Indian nuclear thread and the bomb threads have gone up exponentially? I for one have learnt a lot of things that I did not know about before.

It’s a tough call to be an Admin I guess. But once you take the gauntlet and become one, one needs to be extra careful and more circumspect.

JMT
Last edited by amit on 05 Jun 2008 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Duangkomon » 05 Jun 2008 12:08

Hello everyone,
I have been big fan of BRF for a while now until the apparent change of direction BRF took towards certain political leanings. It is disheartening to see the forum which once was a cool place for clever and lively debates now reaching the level of paki forums.
More bewildering though is this apparent ignorance among the admins on how it is happening and the refusal to boot out these entities that troll and hound honest posters. Or may be it is being done by the tacit approval of the admins.
Case in point is this entity called Sanku. He mercillessly trolled and hounded Rangadu off the forum yet he was let to continue to fester. This supports the view that certain admins used him as their pet attack dog on posters who reject their world view. The posts of Sanku itself has brought down the forum to third rate Paki forums. Yet this was let to go on as long as it suited the admins agenda.
Is the need to control public opinion in the forum worth destroying what was once one of the best forums on net?

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Postby Lalmohan » 05 Jun 2008 14:22

I don't know if a change of admins are required. but what is required is a willingness from all participants to be more open in debate and less prone to hair trigger responses and impulses.

the most common jingo response to any open question (either sincerely put or ignorantly put) is one of extreme prejudice - ergo, you must be a paki troll or a chini drone, blah blah...

this does not encourage debate. frankly JCage used to do the same to others, including myself, so no one is blameless here.

this lack of debate - worsening in the past year - has made BRF less stimulating than it used to be. which is a real pity given the really good information, opinion and structured arguement that was and is sometimes still found here

Raju

Postby Raju » 05 Jun 2008 14:38

I would prefer if people do not shoot the messenger since that is the easiest thing to do. Many issues of national importance are brushed away as conspiracy theories. If there are facts to be put on the table, then doing that would help everyone learn as well. Just sitting around attacking people who post a view is taking the easy way out. It is not correct. :mrgreen:

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Postby Tanaji » 05 Jun 2008 14:58

Shiv,

As another long time user, my 2 cents worth

The forum has certainly changed over a period of time, I am not sure whether its a definite for the worse. Earlier, during the time we had Sunil Sainis and others, the forum was highly technical. The discussions were often at times very esoteric and certainly not to the taste of everybody. It would seem at times that the forum was the preserve of the PhD types: Sainis, Ramanna, Matt T etc. Due to the sheer knowledge breadth, if anyone else participated, his/her views would not be taken seriously. This wasnt on purpose, it would be because the new comer may not have the required skill set. This led to a the feeling that the forum was for a select clique, and was not helped when some admins (I recall it was Ramana, but I may be mistaken, so apologies in advance) used to say that membership of BR should be restricted to a select few and be by invitation only.

From my perspective, that time certainly wasn't the best of times. Yes, the quality of BRM and then SRR was really high, but there wasnt a sense of openness at the time.

Later on, the admins got a bit more lenient. Expectedly, the atmosphere has become more lenient, but predictably the quality has gone down. I suppose one cant expect to have it both at the same time. Yet, now we seem to have some strange characters on forum spouting views that would have invited an instant ban earlier ("Destroy Mecca as the pillar of Islam" being one of the more charitable ones). But the forum is more catering towards the masses.

One must also take into consideration the changing times with respective to India. Earlier, Indians were a bit more deferential, mainly due to the state of affairs in India. Now with a growing economy and better exposure, people are more assertive and demand that they and India be treated at par with the best. This view is derided by the PhD types such as Sainis as frivolous and "Dil Chahta Hai" attitude and something to be frowned upon. They want things to be the same as old times where a select few would make commentary for the rest. That view has its advantages as laid out earlier, but it does make the forum less interesting and a bit out of touch with the rest.

Ultimately, I think the main stake holders of BR, the ones who actually put money in it have to make a decision on what they want BR to be.
I think the Silent One aka Rupak C. is one of the main ones and there may be well others. If they want a forum like the older days, admins should make this a forum by invitation only. The quality will certainly increase. We can have people like KGoan, Alok_N, Sainis come back and pontificate on how a third order differential equation be solved and what EOS parameters are useful, or how cunning Indians are when they lured Pakistan into a monkey trap vis-a-vis Pakistan. These are certainly very valid and debatable issues. Just not sure whether its for a lot of the others. Perhaps it is for the best: surely there is India Forum for the likes of the rest. Admins will have to be very strict, and have only one forum: strategic and maybe military news one on BR in that case.

One thing to understand is people still want to come here, even after the existence of India Forums, and there is something that makes people coming back.

No offence meant really.

---------------------------
Allakh Niranjan!

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3240
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Postby Tanaji » 05 Jun 2008 15:07

Another point:

Not sure if a change of mods is what is required. Its more a case of introspection by the forum admins on what they want the forum to be. After all as Dr. Shiv keeps reminding us, its a private forum and they are the ones putting their money on it. They need to decide what they want to pour in their money for.

Its more of a philosophical statement that needs to be made than the admin change. And btw, I think the past few years have proved that you cant be both at the same time at least on the Strategic Forum, you have to be very strict. A mixture of India Forum attitude with SRR/BRM attitude does not work as is evident now.

satyarthi
BRFite
Posts: 179
Joined: 21 Aug 2006 08:50

Postby satyarthi » 05 Jun 2008 17:51

In fact fissures on BR have mirrored the situation within Indian society and polity.

For a decade now BJP and other rightist organizations have been making inroads into society and into power. The response of the established parties was to treat them as pariahs. Any association with them or sympathy for them was considered a crime in these circles. That attitude is still very prominent and is reflected in the media too.

But the right leaning views have been gaining in India and are occupying a large mindshare in reality however denied and suppressed by the media.

The two major fissures that BRF went through, have also mirrored the socio political fissures and pressures in India, but followed a different trajectory.

The first which led to forming of India-Forum, involved removing a chunk of rightist participants from BR, was quite civilized as IF never went actively against BRF, and had at least initially tried to be complementary.

The more recent one which led to removal or self-removal of participants of non-rightist bend, has turned out to be much more acrimonious. This new formation has posited itself to an active and bickering role against BR instead of making itself complementary.

This scorched earth policy of non-rightists also mirrors what is happening in India. Where a Modi contnues to be vilified even after delivering the most rapid development any state has seen.

Apparently the rightists are willing to accomodate while the non-rightists are not.

Fact is that the people who broke away recently were highly qualified. Of all I miss kgoan the most. And hope they can be brought back.

But if that involves swinging the pendulum to one extreme again then that might prove to be an unstable equilibrium just as in the past. Existing lack of BRM/SRR kind of material amongst the newbies should not convince one to make value judgement for all eternity. Older generation was rarely rightist. And it is their expertise gained through long experience that shows through their posts. Younger gen is leaning much more towards right, but they are still raw and under development. It doesn't mean that few years down the line they won't make "BRM/SRR" type of material. Even in India chaddiwalas were laughed at as retrogressive until Modi shut them up.

Instead of swinging to any extremes, what is needed at BRF is a reconciliation between the "Bharat-Mata" and "India that is Bharat" types. Both previous divisions happened due to the same kind of pressures. The problem is not going to go away by just pretending that only one side exists or that only one side deserves to exist.

I think a strict moderation is needed which weeds out unnecessary and pointlessly confrontational posts/postors. But I would be extremely wary of any developments that wish to swing the focus to one extreme.

rocky
BRFite
Posts: 142
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 22:52

Postby rocky » 05 Jun 2008 18:17

Maybe before the admins start thinking about changes at the top, we could have much simpler solutions in place?

Like how about a maximum posting right of 10 posts per day? A lot of heartburn will be reduced if this simple rule is implemented.

enqyoobOLD
BRFite
Posts: 690
Joined: 09 Sep 2004 05:16
Location: KhemKaran, Shomali Plain

Postby enqyoobOLD » 05 Jun 2008 18:27

Sarcasm switch should probably be in OFF for all mods (enqyoob and singha, i guess that rules you out?


Thank u very kindly etc 4 thinking of me, but I had no plans to rule myself IN, unless it was a question of forum survival needing a dictator. 8) This business of being a manager is simply not in my blood, thanks. I depend on the Forum Police to gauge the limits to which "creative expression" and the occasional soccer practice, can be pushed. In fact every day I look at the "Ban Thread" to see if my name appears, before wasting time composing posts. Being an Admin would take all the fun out of it, sorry.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Postby vina » 05 Jun 2008 18:52

Satya_anveshi wrote: - Formation/Existence of nukkad, camera, penis etc like threads,


Oh the camera thread is pretty good.Leave that out of the other parts.. Nukkad of course is nice ""time pass"... The "unmentionable " of course depends on whether you want to read it and get your kicks out of it or not..

I dont look at any forum other than BR... I have no idea about "India Forum" .. what is the other forum the "non rightists" are on.. Does it have a name?.


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