Boot out the old and bring in new blood?

satyarthi
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Postby satyarthi » 05 Jun 2008 19:28

vina wrote:I dont look at any forum other than BR... I have no idea about "India Forum" .. what is the other forum the "non rightists" are on.. Does it have a name?.

The other one is a blog. But since it has taken an anti BR stand, I think it is best not to give it publicity at BR.

shiv
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Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2008 19:56

satyarthi wrote:
vina wrote:I dont look at any forum other than BR... I have no idea about "India Forum" .. what is the other forum the "non rightists" are on.. Does it have a name?.

The other one is a blog. But since it has taken an anti BR stand, I think it is best not to give it publicity at BR.


Well Sunil is a friend and was the best thing that happened to BRM. Sunil has a blog called Maverick's world. I was keen not to link that blog on the nuke thread because of a reason that I have posted on the nuke thread.

I will try and explain using an analogy - regarding my mother and father who are both dead now. When I was a boy they used to have a fight and for an evening or so they would not be on talking terms. my mother would then tell me "Tell your father that dinner is ready if he is interested". On some other occasion father might say "Please tell your mummy that I am off to work now"

Initially, when PakDef and BRF came online at the same time they behaved like my mum and dad after a fight and people on both forums would post what they wanted seen and heard on the other forum, relying on people who visited both fora to play the role of "little boy shiv" to transfer messages of what is going on in one forunm to the other. It then became a competition of bchodgiri and pakdef was better at posting bluff and we had a whole lot of anxious people wailing on BRF about the great things happening in Pakland. i put an end to that by ruling that Pakdef would get NO hits from BRF ad that there would be no cross references to discussions.

I personally have no problem with people looking at Sunil's blog. I see him as a friend and an ally even though his blog is now being used exactly the way my father and mother utilized me after a fight.

The particular reason why I forbade linking to Sunil's blog on the nuke thread was that a parallel discussion was/is going on there and I saw the same warning signs that I saw in the Pakdef/BRF competition days - when people use to revel in going to both places and raking up muck for the tamasha value. I believe that discussions on Sunils blog should remain there and anyone who posts there is welcome to do so - but do not cross post them on here. Whether you cross post stuff from here on to there is your business and I cannot have a say on what is your prerogative. But cross posting discussions from there to here or cross posting meta-discussions of discussions from Sunil's blog in which BRF threads are being discussed will not be looked upon with sympathy by me. If I sense disruption or intent that raises my hackles - I will merely do a Rakesh Koshy style "adi kollu" on whoever does it. But that is BRF.

People who do not like BRF are now fortunate in having at least two alternate sites to visit and I don't believe we need to be in competition with them. That is a far better situation than 7-8 years ago.

ramana
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Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2008 20:09

One person I miss is Kgoan. I thought he had a self imposed restriction on his particpation. I haven't heard from him in some time.

vivek_ahuja
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Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jun 2008 20:43

There has been a lot of discussion on what all has changed and whether it is for the good or bad. Since I wasn't there in the old days to be able to compare then and now, I will take the word of those who were. Even so, one of the features of the BR website that truly put it above the rest and what I will like to comment on was SRR.

It has been seemingly discontinued now for various reasons, and despite a spurt of activity long ago to restart it, it hasn't restarted.

I would like to recommend that it should be restarted, perhaps slowly at first as the team is built up again. It has a lot to offer:

a) There has been a lot of talk of how the BR community has become polarized into different camps on various issues from Nuclear deals to the MRCA and so forth. Something along the lines of SRR is capable of undoing that kind of polarity as teamwork builds along with the work.

b) Shiv mentioned that now there are threads with little material value and lot of noise that serve little purpose for anyone to try and dig information out of. Surely something like SRR can be treated as the concise and to the point output of those long threads and hence a cleaner, productive result?

c) BR was one of the few sites that actually did work of the caliber required to match all actual paper print journals in the Indian Military arena in terms of thoughts and views. If the perception now is that that standard has dropped as far as the discussions are concerned, then going back to the roots and presenting the cleaned out version of those discussions separately while maintaining a free discussion forum is certainly the way to go, is it not?

I know the work is hard going, but there are people willing to contribute stuff, and many of those who cannot would certainly be willing to help out with the editing stuff and so on. All that is needed is the determination to get it back on track. I swift go/no-go decision is all that is required initially and that's where the BR team would start coming back together IMO.

JMT

-Vivek

Karkala Joishy

Postby Karkala Joishy » 05 Jun 2008 20:59

I used to enjoy jrjrao's posts. I checked, its been a year since he posted. Probably busy. Same with the Chicago gang of SridharN, AnantD. I was surprised that Rangudu has left.

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Postby Anujan » 05 Jun 2008 21:05

Shiv-ji,
Old days are not coming back.

I have been a lurker since 99 and I agree that BRF has changed since then. But three things also happened in the interim, membership has increased, I see handles for which I dont remember their previous posts and now I read each post in isolation (earlier, you used to know the thought process and the context of each poster). The number of posts per day has gone up - earlier, I would be surprised if I were to see 50 posts across all threads in a given day. Thirdly, Lastly, the sources of information that were available to us back then was few. Online articles were few (there was no B Raman blog for example), photos were hard to come by, DDMitis prevailed everywhere (frequent DRDO bashing/LCA will never fly etc etc).

I do not think that the change in character is solely a consequence of something that the admins did (intended or otherwise). It is simply more people posting, more frequently, citing more sources of information online. The fixes (if the admins want to fix it) are to make BRF invitation only. Or have voting on each post, (but that introduces its own dynamic), or restrict posting to 5 posts per person per day. Less drastically, I would like to see more moderator postings (3:1 ratio maybe) guiding the discussion.

Finally, the more serious members should put out BRM articles based on consensus opinion based on the discussions and the articles themselves can be debated. Making the publications of BRF the more serious material and the discussion forums as a "proving ground" or a "crucible" for those publications.

As an OT, the trend that I feel troublesome is that discussions frequently degrade to name calling (NPA etc). This has many problems, people get banned (either the perpetrators or the victims who lash back), people who are decent enough not to lash back get trolled off, and finally, fearing that the thread might degrade into flame wars people pull punches. I want to see more forceful posts more viciously attacking the ideas posted but very gracious to the poster.

enqyoobOLD
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Postby enqyoobOLD » 05 Jun 2008 21:11

Interesting. I didn't know about this Sunilblog. Also, any real hard-core LEftists here, pls do go to IndiaForum. 8) That should really be fun to watch, so pls let me know when you do.

Re: SRR, My understanding is that there is a standing offer: U write up a coherent piece (700 words? 1500 words? 5000 words?) and v can* make it appear on the web. Enough of these and v can put an SRR issue.

*Note that I said "CAN", not "WILL". Just for plausible deniability. Note above re: Non-Administ religion. 8)

kunal anand
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Postby kunal anand » 05 Jun 2008 21:11

I've been lurking for nearly a decade now. I heard about BRF in 1998. I miss some of the old folks like Kaushal etc. Shiv is right in so far as the forum has become lots more personal and lot less substantive. The main reason I don't post to be quite honest is that there are cliques on here, much like any other place, and outsider opinions are often rejected by such cliques ad hominem. The collegial spirit that used to exist on here ages ago is fast disappearing and perhaps new blood can solve it. Whatever is the solution, I wish BRF well. The people who run this place have real jobs and I admire what they do on the side. Yet, the level of interpersonal attacks and ganging up has to stop. I think it's a maturity issue quite frankly.

I agree. I have been a regular visitor on BR for about 7 years, the main thing that stopped from joining and nowadays mostly from posting are the reasons stated above. In some ways i have to think 10 times before posting my views and most of times I end up not posting. :(

Rangudu
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Postby Rangudu » 05 Jun 2008 21:22

FYI folks. Thanks for thinking of me. I haven't left BR at all. To be honest, I was a bit peeved at what I felt was rudeness/flaming in the nuke thread but that only caused me to hesitate to partake in that particular thread. I've not posted here recently because my mother passed away suddenly some time ago. I still visit BR all the time but there are things in my life that need more attention, obviously.

As to the topic of this thread, fresh blood is a good idea. I enjoyed and still enjoy the esoteric discussions of the Sainis/KGoan/Ramana days but at the same time, if the majority and high-enthu BR participants want to debate certain topics and the admins also agree, then it is perfectly normal to change the course. I'll definitely continue to post here to the extent I can.

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Postby John Snow » 05 Jun 2008 21:33

Firstly I want to thank the Bradmins for the great job they are doing in spite of thankless nature of the job. It is testimony to their love for India and the passion they have for the matters relating to strategic affairs and military affairs of India and world at large.

I have been on this forum for some time, so in way I can relate to the ups and downs in the perceived standards of the forum.

Basically I would differ to say that standards have not fallen but have certainly changed.
Starting as a bulletin board the forum went to great heights as scholarly forum and then came back to more average “Joeâ€
Last edited by John Snow on 05 Jun 2008 21:42, edited 1 time in total.

mandrake
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Postby mandrake » 05 Jun 2008 21:37

Dont think replacing the old horses is a good idea at all. Complementing them is a different idea altogather.

Paul
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Postby Paul » 05 Jun 2008 21:38

1. Just start sending feelers to selected people who the current Admins think have Good site admin potential.
2. After handing over day to day actvities to the new blood (keep an eye on the threads though) focus on long term activities like revival of SRR.

Karkala Joishy

Postby Karkala Joishy » 05 Jun 2008 21:40

I blame Musharraf!!! :P

Ever since he seized power and ran Pakiland aground in 1999, this site has been a beehive of activity dissecting his every move from Kargil to his latest GUBOs. Now that he is fading away, so are we here.

Bring back Musharraf! Save BRF! :twisted:
Last edited by Karkala Joishy on 05 Jun 2008 23:10, edited 1 time in total.

abhischekcc
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Postby abhischekcc » 05 Jun 2008 21:44

Guys,

That BR has changed is indisputable.

But to bemoan the old days and say that the intellectual content was better in those days is missing the point.

Talking from my own experience, I feel BR is more open, tolerates more points of view (perhaps leading to dilution of discussion) and is generally more intellectual today.

It has also led the way in generating a Hindu Nationalist POV.
I know this has been an important development because in 2001, when I was supporting Modi for his various acts of commission and omission on the Post Godhra riot handling, I was trolled off the forum by N^3 (then called by another name) and kgoan, for 4 years.
Today, support for Modi is standard on the forum. And for the right reasons.

Even N^3 is a Hindu Nationalist, but he is too shy to admit it, hence spends much of his time bashing pakistan in pinglish. :P

------------

BR has been instrumental in informing the online nationalist community (and through them, the rest of the country) of the issues facing the country. That is the raisin dieter :) of BR , and that is what we are good at.

As long as we continue to do it, we are doing quite all right. Thank You.

-------------

>>Like how about a maximum posting right of 10 posts per day? A lot of heartburn will be reduced if this simple rule is implemented.
Only if you want to read the Ramayan in one post. :lol:

-------------

PS
If the forum is reduced to a technical site, believe me, it will lose all its influence. Its main attraction is its rumbunctious community.

Although trolling hasn't ended. But remember you get all kinds of trolls - dumb as well as intellectual. What distinguishes a troll from a non-troll is his willingness to engage another person's POV with consideration.

-------------

>>the most common jingo response to any open question (either sincerely put or ignorantly put) is one of extreme prejudice - ergo, you must be a paki troll or a chini drone, blah blah...
Lalmullah, that is part of the fun of being on BR. Develop a thick skin. I have been accused of advocating genocide of IMs to being a pakistani - all in the space of one month. :shock:
Of course, if you want the forum to become more intellectual, this will have to go.

>>this lack of debate - worsening in the past year - has made BRF less stimulating than it used to be. which is a real pity given the really good information, opinion and structured arguement that was and is sometimes still found here
BR was like this in 1999 as well. No worsening over there, but perhaps there has been some improvement.

BR tends to go thru phases - it will have good phases with lots of stimulating opinions, facts and debate. Then some nuclear winter in which very little takes place. Even the humour thread was banned some years ago - because the Politburo felt it was degrading the level of the forum. :lol:

---------------

On the whole, quality has improved considerably. Most experienced members know how to sift thru facts and guide newer members, this was missing earlier.
Last edited by abhischekcc on 05 Jun 2008 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

Paul
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Postby Paul » 05 Jun 2008 21:49

You have identified the problem to some extent IMO. BRF has done a terrific job in identifying the facts behind the Pakistan project, it's key stakeholders, chief sponsor, culture, piskology etc.

Now that the confrontation on the western front has ebbed, we need to identify new projects and work on. Otherwise this forum risks losing it's focus. For ex. Other than rudimetary references to EJs and their links to Naxals, we have not seen any in depth research on this mythical linkage.

We need to do similar work on PRC as we did on Pakistan....Ramana has already referred to this a few times.

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Postby Arun_S » 05 Jun 2008 22:05

The idea of limiting number of posting/day is not a good idea. I do know of people who post more than 5 posts/day and I think it is too few, yet there are some that IMO post 5 posts/day that adds no value or negative value.

I think value of posters is shown when other posters join that discussion to embellish or debate an issue to a better understanding of an issue. And I do think that posters know immediately if they adding value to Indian cause or just killing their time.

And if we talking of inviting back people who have voluntarily or involuntarily severed links with BR, perhaps we should also think of inviting back all who were banned? But as someone said earlier split milk cant be converted back into milk.

As sant Kabir-das once said:
    "RAHIMAN DHAGA PREM KA, MAT TODO CHATKAYE |
    TOOTE TE FIR NA JUDAY, JUDIE GANTH PARH JAAYE ||"
      Translated:
      O folks, do not break the thread of love/affection |
      For once it breaks, it does not reconnect, and even if it reconnects, it leaves behind a knot
      ||

satyarthi
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Postby satyarthi » 05 Jun 2008 22:12

Forum has been rather slow in number of posts but still quite high in views, compared to some time ago. It appears people's curiosity is still high, but topics of interest are not that engaging.

One reason as mentioned by others is decline of Pakistan's Musharraf (in every sense of the word). And BRF did a great job on that front.

A renewed focus on China will be useful. But I am not sure same methods that were successfulregarding Pakistan can be used against China or not.

Another reason is that security situation of India has eased quite a bit. Compared to 10 years ago, India is in a much happier and secure place. This has relieved some of the pressure that jingos felt. And many of them seem to have permanently retired to Nukkad thread discussing virtues of alcohol among other things. But that is a reserve. When something big or important happens, I think the hounds will be let loose from the Nukkads.

John Snow wrote:I for one certainly miss Yogi Patel, Kgoan, Sridhar, Spinster yes of course Dr. Tim through him I learned the art of imparting spin, and he is my Guru indeed.

John Snow is missing Spinster. Guru, you have realized the essence of Vedanta. :)

gandharva
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Postby gandharva » 05 Jun 2008 22:12

As sant Kabir-das once said:
"RAHIMAN DHAGA PREM KA, MAT TODO CHATKAYE |
TOOTE TE FIR NA JUDAY, JUDIE GANTH PARH JAAYE ||"


That would be Rahim not KAbir.

Arun_S
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Postby Arun_S » 05 Jun 2008 22:32

gandharva wrote:
As sant Kabir-das once said:
"RAHIMAN DHAGA PREM KA, MAT TODO CHATKAYE |
TOOTE TE FIR NA JUDAY, JUDIE GANTH PARH JAAYE ||"


That would be Rahim not KAbir.

No sir that dhoha is from Kabir.

Karkala Joishy

Postby Karkala Joishy » 05 Jun 2008 22:33

Man, those dohas were great. Kabir was my favorite. I was shocked that Kabir and Rahim both were muslims. :shock:

Back to the topic, were are Pak obsessed. I sure am myself. However, China is a bigger threat. We need to focus there. And the Evanjihadi threat. Pakistan is old news.

John Snow
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Postby John Snow » 05 Jun 2008 22:38

Satya Vaakk! Satyarthi garu

:)

enqyoobOLD
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Postby enqyoobOLD » 05 Jun 2008 22:41

I was trolled off the forum by N^3 (then XXXXXXXX) and kgoan, for 4 years. Today, support for Modi is standard on the forum. And for the right reasons.
Even N^3 is a Hindu Nationalist, but he is too shy to admit it, hence spends much of his time bashing pakistan in pinglish.


AllahoAkbar! Et tu, Abhiskekcc, my guru on the Eight Steps Of Propaganda? :(( You sound like the Paki journalist (I forget its name) who once called me at work claiming to be a journalism student at Columbia U, and then wrote an article ascribing religion and politics to my opinions. Haven't seen anything from that particular entity for a few years, maybe he's vacationing in Guano Bay (NOT THAT I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT, other than putting a permanent 'hex" on him and sticking pins in a voodoo doll with his name on it)

What does "troll" mean pls? You mean ROTFL, I assume? For that matter, what does "TN" mean on the nook threads? I assumed it meant "Tamil Nadu" since it referred to Throw Weight and seismic events, like Mohterma Jayalalithaa jogging?

I have been learning on BRF since July 1999 when I got kicked off the CNN forum (for making an honest effort to get some anti-India shi* sena nut banned - instead the whole bloody forum got shut down). I miss Salman the most. The times have changed, but until musharraf gets hanged for his crimes, our job is not done here. Meanwhile, the troubling thing is that ppl keep forgetting the FIVE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES:
1. Don't attack India. (which is not same as attacking GOI)
2. Don't seek foreigners' help to attack India (lesson from experience with 1700,000,000 years of foreign invasions and slavery)
3. Don't put petty party politics above Indian interests.
4. Don't take the line that "all our PAST leaders were crooks and incompetents" because that just says that we and our PRESENT leaders are crooks and incompetents AND traitors and fools.
5. Don't post on the internet what you don't want your Boss and Supreme HQ reading. Because you can be sure they will.

and the ONE OVERARCHING THEME:
6. Be nice to enqyoob.

Abhijit
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Postby Abhijit » 05 Jun 2008 22:51

BR lost its zing when the towel thread was sent to houristan :D
Seriously, now everybody and his/her aunt, including pakis and their goats have accepted the fait accompli that pakiland is fast approaching irrelevance except for a little bit of nuisance value. We have also dissected Islamism and its modus operandi and reached a consensus that it is a major threat. It took several years and the process of learning and disseminating that knowledge and it was fun and instructive to traverse the path. Now the threats are known and reasonably well analyzed. We should be in a different stage now, speaking from the product lifecycle perspective. The forum, as a product has reached a state of maturity.

So we need to introduce a new product to again rekindle the restless spirits.
Do we have consolidated wisdom/knowledge capsules, say, a 1/2 pager bullet points list and ppt on
- how prc is a threat from the security, economic perspective
- how should we deal with each aspect of the prc threat
- what is the maoist threat and its history
- what is an NFU and why Indian policymakers took this stance
- why do you agree/disagree with NFU
- what is the evanjehadi threat and what effects it can have on the Indian polity
the list of topics is endless, but the postors need to take efforts to create these one pagers/ppts so that we can do evangelization of our own. JMT.

abhischekcc
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Postby abhischekcc » 05 Jun 2008 22:53

Heh N^3, I wasn't calling you a troll. :-o

And:
I was trolled off the forum by N^3 (then XXXXXXXX) and kgoan, for 4 years. Today, support for Modi is standard on the forum. And for the right reasons.


Why are you blowing kisses my way?

I know you like me, but this is too much. :D

Prem
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No booting but why cant we all get along !! RK

Postby Prem » 05 Jun 2008 22:56

Folks who have gone on self imposed Banwas or otherwise should reconsider. BR has greater audience and exposure . Their own way of strengthning Indian interests can better serve here by getting maximum return on their indvidual efforts. BR has the potential to become a guiding force in its field. The passion, energy and the various capabilties of the posters are proven. We must come together or we risk fading away. India is bigger than any individual and BR exists for Bharat with only one creteria i.e to weed out the weaknesses and impart strength to India and my simple understanding is this is our meeting point.

Prem
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Postby Prem » 05 Jun 2008 23:03

Arun_S wrote:
gandharva wrote:
As sant Kabir-das once said:
"RAHIMAN DHAGA PREM KA, MAT TODO CHATKAYE |
TOOTE TE FIR NA JUDAY, JUDIE GANTH PARH JAAYE ||"


That would be Rahim not KAbir.

No sir that dhoha is from Kabir.


Arre Bhai , are you talking about my lost Dhaga ? (PREM KA)

:)

vina
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Postby vina » 05 Jun 2008 23:03

enqyoob wrote: You sound like the Paki journalist (I forget its name) who once called me at work claiming to be a journalism student at Columbia U, e they will.


Tell me that you are making this all up and that you are high on crack or something and just dreaming about it.. dude.. Paki journalist.. claiming to be from Columbia U and calling at work ?..Surely man, that is the stuff of nightmares...I mean, Columbia U and journalist.. my mind immediately leaps to N.Ram. but you say a Paki ..so a Paki version of N.Ram or was it more onthe lines of Ms Shrileen and Ms Jalebi.

and the ONE OVERARCHING THEME:
6. Be nice to enqyoob.


Ah.. but that makes it 6 principles and not 5, doesn't it ?.

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Postby BijuShet » 05 Jun 2008 23:20

I have been a lurker since 1999 but only started posting since 2007. I have considered BR to be a communal trough from which I quench my thirst for geo-political and MIL knowledge. Whether we drink or piss in it is a choice each one will make on their own but for all those who dare piss, there is BR admins. The BRAdmins have rendered superb service through the years and, while it is a largely thankless job, there are many among us who silently thank you daily for this selfless service.

In my opinion BR has evolved from a forum of wise men gathered around a fire to the forum of the Hoi polloi. This change whether it is for the good is open to debate. What is not debatable is that BR continues to attract attention among the new and the old and that it still has the rare ability to put complex things in perspective for the aam junta. As example, in my case, the hot debate about the nuke deal helped me better understand the nuances of the deal and helped me make up my mind about the pros and cons of signing the deal.

With BRs growing popularity and the manifold increase in the number of active threads the task of thread administration has increased significantly. Most admins/stakeholders who govern this site have actual outside gainful employment (i.e. are not typical JNU types) hence, I believe adding a few more admins would be a good start. The idea of limiting the number of posts per day as it keeps one-liners at bay or at least limits their ability to damage discussions should also be explored by BRAdmins and the wise men.

As regards troll behavior sometimes vigorous defense gets construed as troll behavior. What I would like is for posters to sometimes agree to disagree and move on rather than bicker over a singular issue. It helps to move on and then provide additional evidence to support your stance than to keep chanting that the other opinion is invalid and/or the other person is a fool and/or a traitor.

Also how about implementing a mechanism to indicate the nature of the post (a query, on observation, a statement of facts, a posted links, a point of disagreement or a vehement opposition to the issue at hand) for e.g. sometimes due to poor writing skills, a sincere and innocent query comes across as irreverent challenge or a taunt to some Gurus.

I am saddened to see some of the Gurus of yore leave this forum due to disagreements, disillusion or due to other pressing personal issues. Could BRAdmins who in many cases have other channels of communication with these people write to such people and seek a critical review of this forum. They may have left but I find it hard to believe that they can remove BR from their minds. A mirror may help us recognize our flaws and helps us improve. These people may have left but I don’t think they would ever think ill of BR.

I feel an SRR like compilation (articles/reports) of all the pros and cons on important issues would be a great start. I know it sounds very 1980s but how about establishing some kind of committee or e-groups of wise men to browse specific threads and synthesize all the arguments into concise thoughts.

Ps: On a personal level, I missed scenario or role playing exercises like Leila-1 Grand Strategy Wargame. I wish Gurus and wise men conduct more such games for the unwashed among us to learn to think like the Gurus and to be able to recognize the breadth of issues at play when the leaders of the nation decide to implement a national policy.

PPs: Apologies for OT portion of this post but Ranguduji please accept my condolence and may the departed soul find its rightful place with the gods above. I also read that you have completed your MBA so please accept my congratulations on that accomplishment.

ramana
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Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2008 00:57

Another thing is there is proliferation of interest groups and think tanks. It might be useful for BR to track these new type of pressure groups in US. For example we heard about USINPAC etc but do we know their raisins? What else exists?

Katare
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Postby Katare » 06 Jun 2008 01:00

Change that we can believe in :P

We need an Obama to run BRF to unite the divided communities and once more bring all of the lost hero’s back together :idea:
Last edited by Katare on 06 Jun 2008 01:02, edited 1 time in total.

Rahul M
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Postby Rahul M » 06 Jun 2008 01:01

Seriously, now everybody and his/her aunt, including pakis and their goats have accepted the fait accompli that pakiland is fast approaching irrelevance except for a little bit of nuisance value. We have also dissected Islamism and its modus operandi and reached a consensus that it is a major threat. It took several years and the process of learning and disseminating that knowledge and it was fun and instructive to traverse the path. Now the threats are known and reasonably well analyzed. We should be in a different stage now, speaking from the product lifecycle perspective. The forum, as a product has reached a state of maturity.


that is very true, abhijit, but BR needs to concentrate those years of hardwork, analysis and painstaking research in the form of concise articles, a kind of magnum opus, if you will, which will be accessible to all and sundry w/o the requirement of going through scores of archived threads and understanding BRspeak.

In other words, these finding have to be put in the form of articles that can be easily understood by an interested lay person, can be readily cited (emphasis added), and lastly and most importantly for the forum, be accessible for the newcomers to let them understand the prevalent viewpoint(s) (emphasis added) that forumites have reached over years of analysis.
This would help remove a lot of misconceptions first time round and lead to more constructive discussions.
The vicious cycle of naive questions/rants-->same old arguments--> frustation of experienced members--> specialised BR parlance --> naive questions/rants that we see in the Islamism thread/Psy-ops thread/TSP thread/Nuke thread/TIE thread needs to be broken.

But more importantly, IMHO BR has the potential to provide unbiased info to a lot of non BRFites.
Fine tuning and refining the discourses only go so far, forumites are mostly knowledgable on this stuff anyway. Preaching to the choir only leads to endless hair splitting and bickerings, scenes we are witnessing regularly on BR nowadays.

Our task should be to try and spread whatever we know to the general populace. A sense of purpose will go a long way in removing and redirecting the excess energy that is evident on BR these days. It is the lack of such a purpose that has contributed to lowering the discussion level on BRF. Yes, BRFites gather around the fire, exchange opinions and ideas and learn a lot on various topics but after a while it does become a bit pointless or even pedantic.
BR needs to survive for the multitude of people called the bharatiyas, not just a few hundred BRFites, IMO.


Topics on which BRFites can pen articles :
Islamism and Pakistan are two subjects on which BR gurus are past masters. Both subjects are close enough to the hearts of many forumites to sufficiently interest them to write on the subjects.
Different aspects of pakistan has been covered in many articles of BRM/SRR, but newer policies and players have come up since the journals
were halted and this may not be a bad time to show if and how the current happenings dovetail with the past ones and in turn try and predict some of the future.
Islamism is a topic that is probably outside the purview of SRR. But given the importance of the internal as well as the external dynamics of the problem to our security, it certainly deserves a gamut of articles covering every aspect of that threat for the future. If shiv ji's insights on this topic does not find a permanent place on BR, the loss would be terrible.
May be that won't be to the liking of every BRadmins, but I believe BR needs to break out of some of the self imposed shackles and engage the greater world on every issue of security importance.

On Admins:
I certainly believe that the current squad has done superb work over the years. but the sheer volume of posting nowadays coupled with the regular absence of most of the admins except 3-4 means that policing has gone slack. the situation can be improved if some new mods can be added to the ranks with duties specified viz. mod for mil fora etc.
the older guard should continue IMHO and the not so active admins (like calvin, rakesh, JEM) can be encouraged to participate more if they don't have any pesonal problems.

PS kudos to shiv ji for starting another thread of interesting thought processes.

enqyoobOLD
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Postby enqyoobOLD » 06 Jun 2008 02:10

What distinguishes a troll from a non-troll is his willingness to engage another person's POV with consideration.


Thanks, abhishekcc. High praise indeed. That's me all right - ALWAYS willing to ENGAGE another person's POV with consideration. Famous for this generous nature, all over PakDefDumb, Londonistan and Ohio State University, the Home of the Amreekan Paki. Now I c.

vina, better believe it. I am sure I can dig up and post the name too, but against policy to give publicity to such things. It was the start of a major effort by him which fizzled like the Chagai tests. The crack was "(mera naam), a yindoo Indian (job title) of (type of field ) at (name of employer), said that ... (twisted misquote)". It was an act of frustration because I (a) conveyed my sympathies for where he was studying, (b) told him certain redlines which if crossed would cause me to come after him, (c) told him to send questions by email and then blew them off after I did some background check and realized what he was, (d) warned others whom he was going to call b4 he got to them. I could have, and probably still will, caused some serious damage to him by writing to his boss, but I may do something much sweeter if he raises his head again.

By the way, some ppl seem to associate "intellectual discussions" with "civility". The two are not mutually exclusive in theory, but generally are in practice. If u c 2 self-proclaimed "intellectuals" in peaceful discussion, u can bet they r not talking about either one's opinions, but about cheerleaders or the govt.

ramana
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Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2008 02:32

Do we think we had enough glasnost or let the rhona/dhona continue?

Rahul M
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Postby Rahul M » 06 Jun 2008 02:35

why not come to some kind of a decision before we sign off ??

achy
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Postby achy » 06 Jun 2008 03:05

Having been a BR lurker for long time, I am seeing some very pessimistic talk. BR has certainly evolved. But, is it for worse ?

My opinion is mixed. Here are my thoughts :

1. What is the idea of BR .

With my limited brain, I think the idea is two fold.

a) Create a community interested in Strat/Mil affairs, mainly Indian Strat/mil affairs.
b) Provide a medium for guru log through which they impart their knowledge to the BR community and thus create awareness.

In my mind both are necessary objectives of the idea. But they are also divergent in their nature.

If BR wants to have large community, then obviously there will be lot of noise, Which will then dilute the second objective.

I think to control quality and at the same time provide the free flowing spirit, my suggestion will be :

Identify threads as High Value thread, Topical threads and Others.

High value threads must be closely policed with respect to posting rights and Admin oversight. Objective shd be to maintain good quality and low noise level. In fact allow posting in such threads only if the poster fulfils certain criteria. E.g. Poster shd have been member for at least year or so, exceptions granted by Admin, If required . More such objective criteria can/needs to be devised.

Topical threads : These threads, by their nature, will be high traffic threads resulting in high noise. Policing shd be done only to ensure that onset of degeneration is delayed. Degenaration will be inevitable in these threads.

Other threads should be for commons where free wheeling can discuss, dissect, rib among themselves and ask pertinent questions. Experts can deign upon the commons to throw their nuggets of wisdom as and when required.

Some threads will encompass any two classification e.g Nuke thread.

At least , my perspective is that, although there is too much noise, there is immense nuggets of wisdom in Nuke threads.

Since we are on Kabir, here is another doha :

Kabir Lahare Samudra Ki
Moti Bikhare Aaye
Bagula Parakh Na Jaan Hi
Hansa Chun Chun Khaye

Also, on lighter side. Every posting member will have to swear on NFU doctrine and also declare their CMD :D . Let's see how deterence works among BR members.

As a final note: Current Admins have done a great job. Please dont accept blame where there is none. As far as inducting more blood,more is always merrier.

SaiK
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Postby SaiK » 06 Jun 2008 03:14

may be admins need a break.. they can't do more than 40 hours per week! :twisted:

shiv
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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 05:39

lakshmic wrote:Shiv-ji,
Old days are not coming back.
<snip>
Finally, the more serious members should put out BRM articles based on consensus opinion based on the discussions and the articles themselves can be debated..


LakshmiC I realise that the old days will not come back. I used to watch the hit count of the Paki thread in the old days and now as a "meter"

But many of the people whose posts used to "matter" and who used to contribute articles to BRM or other media have been trolled out by people who are still on this forum. That tells me that I am going to have to be les tolerant of the type of reactions to posts than I used to be. Having said that - this will not be easy.

I am sure that newcomers who will be just as valuable as the old serious contributors will similarly get trolled out. One possibility that I see is banning pointless flamewars started by sarcastic insults. That could mean post deletion without notice. It could also mean ban without notice.

In fact one of the things I am thinking is to throw away the admin warning thread and hit the ban button without warning.- or with only a little warning. I have seen over the years that such action are rarely to the detriment of the forum. The people who irritate me are also irritating everyone else on the principle of "Jo Lahore mein.."

svinayak
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Postby svinayak » 06 Jun 2008 05:54

Abhijit wrote:
Seriously, now everybody and his/her aunt, including pakis and their goats have accepted the fait accompli that pakiland is fast approaching irrelevance except for a little bit of nuisance value. We have also dissected Islamism and its modus operandi and reached a consensus that it is a major threat. It took several years and the process of learning and disseminating that knowledge and it was fun and instructive to traverse the path. Now the threats are known and reasonably well analyzed. We should be in a different stage now, speaking from the product lifecycle perspective. The forum, as a product has reached a state of maturity.

How did it take the Islamism thread to come inside BR forum. it was not allowed in the early years.

enqyoobOLD
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Postby enqyoobOLD » 06 Jun 2008 08:12

one of the things I am thinking is to throw away the admin warning thread and hit the ban button without warning.- or with only a little warning.

Bismillah! Pls don't do that! :eek: :shock: The warning thread is an outstanding idea, and very successful IMO. No-notice exile is too harsh - ppl need to know why they/others are being kicked out. Also serves the same exemplary / guidance purpose as public hangings.

Shirish
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Postby Shirish » 06 Jun 2008 08:36

What you babas need is a good DANK story :eek:
Lot me see what I can do about that.

Also, make n mistake, its going to be a hot summer in Kashmir so u will have lots to chat about


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