Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 15:22

Momentous changes have swept the Indian political firmament over the past year and a half, that are only likely to accelerate over the next year into 2014 and maybe beyond.

While the idea of India has been debated to death on this forum and other similar ones for more than a decade, the intellectual discourse was always strangely divorced from the on-the-ground political reality. This year finally marks the emergence in the country of a clear delineation of political alternatives - each with their own strongly sketched-out ideas of India and its place in the world.

A key factor bringing these alternate ideas into sharp focus has been the emergence of Narendra Modi as a political force, with ideas that some would say are radical - that India does not need to be forever mired in the Politics of Victimhood & Votebanking, that Governance can indeed be corruption-free at all levels, that Transformative economic development can coexist with drawing strength from Traditions & that Indians can come together meritocratically to push the achievement bar much higher in industry, sciences and other spheres. And that all of this can be achieved without relying on that old Indian (Nehruvian?) failing of Dynastic Raaj.

As opposed to this - we have what has come to be regarded by the vast tribe of JNU Delhi 'intellectuals' as the traditional ‘idea of India’ – that ‘Inclusiveness’ is the supreme ideal taking precedence over either Growth or Meritocracy, that the paternalistic guiding hand of Dynastic Rule is a uniquely ‘Indian’ flavour of democracy that needs to be understood and accepted, that the more evolved Indian liberalism of Sapeksha Dharma needs to be replaced by Western ideas of religious liberalism and that ‘Indian culture’ requires Tolerance of ideologies even when these ideologies don’t reciprocate to make the tolerance mutual.

This thread will NOT be used for discussing poll strategies or for analyzing election results – there are other threads in this forum for that purpose. The focus here will be more on analysis of and study of implications of these contrasting ideals, their key champions / public faces and the likelihood of success for each alternative. Analysis of past events (eg ’84 and ’02 riots), while relevant to some extent to understanding each proponent – will also not be allowed to derail the thread from its main objective. Logical analysis and commentary is encouraged, and consistent evidence of trolling will, I hope, be dealt with appropriately.

Hope the moderators allow this thread to remain for future discussion. India seems to be finally ready politically for mature analysis of these contrasting ideals, and the implications of each are clearly of enormous consequence to India’s future.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 22 Dec 2012 15:42

What is wrong with Dynastic politics? In a civilization that has continuous history for 5000+ years, dynastic element has been intrinsic factor. Be it the Kings or social order perpetuated by varna based systems. Should an individual be disqualified to participate in national discourse and political activities because he or she was born in a family? Should the individual not be judged on his or her abilities and values? Life is not fair, and is it the individual's flaw to use the advantage of being born in an influential family when compared to another individual who has to earn it the hard way? How is it dynastic if people elect the individual and the party behind the indivual in general elections? At best it can be argued that the individual had unfair advantage within the party.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 15:42

http://www.niticentral.com/2012/12/namo-shows-the-way-makes-space-for-opposition.html

Professor PV Indiresan is not a widely known public intellectual when it comes to the world of politics. In the academia however he stands out as a great teacher and institution-builder having worked for forty years within the IIT System. He is most well-known as the Director of IIT Madras, some would even describe him as one of the best Directors at IIT Madras. Professor Indiresan writes a fortnightly column for The Hindu Business Line. Usually his columns focus on technology and public policy with a lot of emphasis on Education and Urban Planning. One sees very little focus on politics in Professor Indiresan’s columns. His latest column that appeared on the December 14 in The Hindu Business Line was a pleasant surprise.

Titled ‘Some Policy Tips for Modi’ the column largely focuses on the populism versus good economics political conundrum. Professor Indiresan, being loyal to the title, went on to spell out an urban agenda that Narendra Modi could focus on. But the more interesting part of the column was what appeared in the concluding sub-section titled ‘The Road Ahead’. In that section Professor Indiresan, while laying down the many pitfalls and challenges in the road ahead for Narendra Modi, subtly expresses a strong endorsement for him by calling upon him to:

…device a convincing case for a programme of development that will appeal to non-Gujaratis — both urbanites and rural folk — that is better than cash doles or caste cohesiveness. He has to reform the judicial process too.

This column by an intellectual and academic of the stature and background of Professor Indiresan is a significant mile marker on how the intellectual debate on Narendra Modi has shifted. The shift is real and palpable as is evident from this morning’s column in The Indian Express by Dr Pratap Bhanu Mehta where he acknowledges:

Narendra Modi’s triumph is an emphatic political achievement. He, like a handful of other Chief Ministers, brilliantly grasped the fact that Indian politics is deeply aspirational. It rewards governance.”


This moment ought to mark the beginning of a long overdue process of engagement between the diverse intellectual ecosystem that is not instinctively left liberal and Narendra Modi. That process of engagement is important for a variety of reasons. Since the 2004 defeat the BJP’s politics have been marked by a streak of anti-intellectualism. The 2009 defeat perhaps exacerbated that anti-intellectual streak with even giants like Arun Shourie ending up in the wilderness. With Narendra Modi advancing a new political discourse to challenge status quo it becomes extremely important for his politics and the intellectual ecosystem to come together and engage in a dialogue.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 16:05

SwamyG wrote:What is wrong with Dynastic politics? In a civilization that has continuous history for 5000+ years, dynastic element has been intrinsic factor. Be it the Kings or social order perpetuated by varna based systems. Should an individual be disqualified to participate in national discourse and political activities because he or she was born in a family? Should the individual not be judged on his or her abilities and values? Life is not fair, and is it the individual's flaw to use the advantage of being born in an influential family when compared to another individual who has to earn it the hard way? How is it dynastic if people elect the individual and the party behind the indivual in general elections? At best it can be argued that the individual had unfair advantage within the party.


Dynasty in Indian politics is both an outcome of and contributor to deep feudalism, a sense of unaccountability and an anti-meritocratic atmosphere. The Gandhi family, as with other Indian dynasties, have clearly been winning on the back of their surnames. Does anyone seriously believe that out of 1.2 Billion folks, its only the next new Gandhi kid on the block who turns out to be the most 'talented' of all ?

Having 3 - 4 odd father-son pairs in 200+ years (as in the US) is not a big deal at all - lets remember that in India you've had one Dynasty ruling across 4 different family members (with media talking of the 5th) for well over 70% of its Independent life.

When Roosevelt won 3 terms in a row in the US (around the time of the Second WW) - Americans were so deeply uncomfortable with the prospect of power going to his head that they passed a resolution that no President could hold office for more than 2 terms. Was that not undemocratic ? No, it was just the Americans being wise- and they would have done the same as regards dynasty if the situation was as dire as in India.

Unfortunately Indians have shown little talent for recognizing loopholes in democracy and plugging them. What about the sense of unaccountable power that arises from Dynasty? How does one put a stop to it - why have these discussions never made it to Indian media ?

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3171
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 22 Dec 2012 16:14

SwamyG ji, already salivating at Modi dynasty kya? :).

But seriously this is a good thread to separate the myth from truth.

Most here have already made their views known on Modi on the Assembly election thread and while there the sticky issue was the 2002 riots there is something less talked about and that has somewhat bothered me. The concentration of power. There have been reports (I cannot confirm, merely reporting what I heard) that just about 15 people decide on the adminstration of Gujarat. Request the better informed ones to share their ideas on how this will affect things if Modi does come on to the national scene.

Then there are other things that we do not even know of in case of Modi. Seems like a very enigmatic leader. His eccentricity in simply ignoring the part of Media that can come outside Gujarat is strange. I mean he can surely be seen on the various Aastha/Sanskaar channels. Baba Ramdev has been using these channels for his work. The daily Pioneer can certainly cover him. A few news channels have come up lately that are not overly into the Kongi camp. He does not even has to speak on things political but what does he have on his mind?

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 22 Dec 2012 16:21

How does feudalism gain foothold in modern politics? How is it different from political networks and power corridors that exist in democracies?
Why should an individual not use family name, if qualified, to win elections? Isn't that individual using his advantages efficiently?

isn't it better to contrast individuals on their policies, values, behaviors,intentions, track record?

Added: It is good thread, hopefully I get to scratch some of my itches.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3171
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 22 Dec 2012 16:34

So far as attitudes are concerned exceptions abound. And for beneficial exceptions, space needs to be created but surely the overall trend in India has been that of Feudalism = = Maa Badaulats or Baap Badaulats. The first generation earns the political capital and hands it over to the next one regardless of what the Baap Badaulat is actually worth.

Anyhow coming back to the focus of Modi. He is by all accounts an autocratic leader. Probably one has to be like that to some extent in our kind of system. But I doubt if he can be categorised as a feudal character.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 16:43

SwamyG wrote:Why should an individual not use family name, if qualified, to win elections? Isn't that individual using his advantages efficiently?

Its efficient for the individual absolutely. Hardly for the country though...Politics is supposed to be for serving others - it cannot be compared to other professions where its OK to maximize your benefits.

Also degree of rot has to be kept in mind...the US is not really comparable on this parameter.
Last edited by Arjun on 22 Dec 2012 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 22 Dec 2012 16:51

Why do you presuppose the individual is selfish? So if the welfare of country is important, will you accept a leader who exhibits that via intentions and actions?

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 17:04

SwamyG wrote:Why do you presuppose the individual is selfish? So if the welfare of country is important, will you accept a leader who exhibits that via intentions and actions?

Look there's two ways to address this - one is through some kind of legislation (similar to the US disbarring more than 2 terms, acts to disallow extreme forms of dynasty CAN be worked out)....the other is to appeal directly to the voters (which I hope Modi will do in a big way and directly heap scorn on the dynastic feudalism of the opposing side). The problem in India is that the voterbase that votes for the Congress (depressed classes and tribes) is also the least likely to even think of issues of feudalism, given the general illiteracy and backward living conditions.

The Dynasty is therefore incentivized to keep the depressed classes dependent on handouts - once they progress beyond that they are likely to be repulsed by the blatant feudalism on display by some parties, as any right-thinking person would be.
Last edited by Arjun on 22 Dec 2012 17:45, edited 1 time in total.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3171
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 22 Dec 2012 17:09

Bhai ji just the way exceptions cannot be ignored, so too the general trend cannot be ignored.

BTW, how many exceptions are their amongst dynasts. Indira Gandhi in 71. One person in one solitary case. There ends the list.

SwamyG ji we are in Kalyug. A general political cull of the dynasts is in order. Dare I say these dynasts will fall in place behind a strong leader as is their wont. What is needed is somebody who can arm twist the harmful kind of people.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 17:31

The ‘idea of Modi’ wins yet again – and why it matters

Fourth-time Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi’s emphatic victory on Thursday has once again brought to the fore several follies in how he is understood by the Indian and global commentariat. Whether it is seeing him through an ideological prism or considering him a mascot for a segment or two, the enormous difference between what it thinks ‘Moditva’ is and what Gujaratis know ‘Moditva’ stands for has eluded many an opinion-maker.

But why have these elections shown us these follies once again? Weren’t 2007 elections all about the ‘maut ka saudagar’ remark and the Sohrabuddin threat, as columnist after columnist, anchor after anchor, so generously summarised for us?

This analysis might throw some light:

“The scale and the context of the victory (Modi’s 2007 win) make it a watershed in Indian politics. This victory subverts every cliché. Incumbents can’t win, they said. Modi proved them wrong. Sonia Gandhi has acquired a new aggression, they said. Modi cut her down to size. Caste equations would work against Modi, they said. Modi managed to rise above standard caste politics.

India is experiencing a political backlash against growth, they said. Modi has ridiculed that idea. It is impossible to win if a significant section of the party works against you, they said. Modi has proved that the party is dependent on the leader rather than the other way round. You can’t cater to both tribals and capitalists, they said. Modi has turned this logic on its head. So-called normal politics would triumph over the politics of polarisation, they said. Modi has made nonsense of this distinction. Modi has created a new paradigm in Indian politics, whose ramifications will be felt for years to come.”

Before this is dismissed as the handiwork of a fawning Modi “stormtrooper” waxing eloquent on a blog, it is what Pratap Bhanu Mehta, one of India’s finest minds, wrote in his column ‘Why the idea of Modi wins’. (For what Mehta wrote after the 2012 victory, read here). As in 2007, so in 2012, the ‘idea of Modi’ – or the fashionable term ‘Moditva’ – continues to be decoded in shallow brackets, possibly for arriving at tempting headline-variety conclusions.

One example is striking. The Gujarat BJP’s manifesto – Sankalp Patra – laid out several initiatives for the “neo middle class,” the lakhs of Gujaratis who are now out of the depths of poverty. Is nurturing this segment important because, as the commentariat would have us believe, this middle class vote is crucial in an urbanised Gujarat?

Sure, electoral appeal is what a politician eventually yearns for. But there is a larger thought which has gone behind this, much beyond the temporariness of favour on the EVMs. Take any developing country that has had rapid sustainable growth and see who its primary drivers have been. Not just economically, the prosperity of this class augurs well even for the social fabric of the nation.

In one of his blogs, therefore, Modi emphasised the importance of nurturing a symbiosis between these “most critical drivers of the Gujarat growth engine” and Gujarat. Modi’s message to them was clear – though we have provided you an enabling environment, you have progressed because of your toil and sweat. We don’t stop here though. We tap in to this huge reservoir of potential within you and ensure that, as you grab opportunities to grow, Gujarat (and India) grows with, and because of, you.

The half sightedness in seeing efforts for nurturing this ‘neo middle class’ as somehow mutually exclusive to poverty alleviation deserves a dose of logic. Instead of endlessly waiting for government generosities, the emergence of a neo middle class and initiatives for this segment would be an inspiration to those still in poverty to utilise the same opportunities that the former grabbed.

The other fallacy, one committed by several socialist-minded Central and State governments and one that has dominated the intellectual discourse, is that poverty alleviation is somehow seen as merely handing out doles to pull the poor out of the utterly ill-conceived poverty line, largely to beautify statistics. There is little thought given to the real possibility that this segment might fall back into poverty, unnoticed and unrecorded, due to several reasons (say, if a dysfunctional government fails to control price inflation in basic commodities).

What Modi has done is that he has focused on giving this segment a sustainable atmosphere for their continual upward mobility notwithstanding the regular stabs of inflation. And he has done it in a manner different from most. Doles last for a day, month and, at the most, a year and usually bleed government coffers. Infrastructural facilities in, say, irrigation and agriculture last generations and are bound to enrich government coffers!

Crucially, this impetus is not aimed at a preferred religion, caste or ideology. Ironic it is that, as Mehta wrote back in 2007, a man considered as the “arch polariser of Indian politics” should be the most vocal in saying that “poverty has no religion”. What drives this ‘section-neutral’ approach towards governance is Modi’s belief that the magnetism in this Gujarat story would inspire sections long used to receiving crumbs from governments considering them politically useful to appreciate the creation of the enabling environment.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1743
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby eklavya » 22 Dec 2012 18:21

How does Modi even get past Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley, etc. in his own party, let alone convince NDA allies to serve in a government lead by himself?

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9202
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Hari Seldon » 22 Dec 2012 18:41

eklavya wrote:How does Modi even get past Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley, etc. in his own party, let alone convince NDA allies to serve in a government lead by himself?

Let's say he does. Of course, feel free to disagree only.
Arjun ji, interesting dhaga and thoughts. Kindly build on further, moi will follow in earnest.

Chandragupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3469
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 15:26
Location: Kingdom of My Fair Lady

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Chandragupta » 22 Dec 2012 18:54

ravi_g wrote:SwamyG ji, already salivating at Modi dynasty kya? :).

But seriously this is a good thread to separate the myth from truth.

Most here have already made their views known on Modi on the Assembly election thread and while there the sticky issue was the 2002 riots there is something less talked about and that has somewhat bothered me. The concentration of power. There have been reports (I cannot confirm, merely reporting what I heard) that just about 15 people decide on the adminstration of Gujarat. Request the better informed ones to share their ideas on how this will affect things if Modi does come on to the national scene.

Then there are other things that we do not even know of in case of Modi. Seems like a very enigmatic leader. His eccentricity in simply ignoring the part of Media that can come outside Gujarat is strange. I mean he can surely be seen on the various Aastha/Sanskaar channels. Baba Ramdev has been using these channels for his work. The daily Pioneer can certainly cover him. A few news channels have come up lately that are not overly into the Kongi camp. He does not even has to speak on things political but what does he have on his mind?


He doesn't need to be seen on any channel. He not being on MSM adds to his enigma & 'exclusivity'. If the requirement is of connecting with the people, then NaMo has shown that he can do it without a third party medium. That's what he should carry on doing.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 22667
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SSridhar » 22 Dec 2012 19:19

I am going to move this thread to GDF pending decision on whether to allow this or not.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 19:32

SSridhar wrote:I am going to move this thread to GDF pending decision on whether to allow this or not.

Sridharji,

Please see the introductory post to this thread - this thread will be discussing issues of significant consequence to a future India...While political references absolutely cannot be avoided in a thread of this sort - the core issue being addressed relates to the contrasting ideas of India that are on offer and need discussion.

I don't think any person whether rightist, centrist or leftist would disagree with the notion of the import of current events - and all media outlets reiterate this attitude. It would be quite odd for BRF alone to be out of the loop on these changes.

And I do think this needs to be in the Strat Forum - otherwise it would landup duplicating parts of the current assembly elections thread in GDF.
Last edited by Arjun on 22 Dec 2012 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2012 20:02

It is deeply saddening that we are either family centric or kingship lovers when it comes to be governed in the future. We have no policies, no process (implemented) nor have any administrative values for governing the nation. We generally are careless when it comes to public life and property. Our ownership is a big question, that is basic fact that has made Gandhi family and other leadership based models.

Sad.. a billion planet going down.. [note: this is not against modi, but the approach to future is wrong]. Gandhi family itself was wrong idea. We need to move to a process centric governance and policy driven form of administration. If Modi delivers that, then he is the man, but not the king.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17260
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby RamaY » 22 Dec 2012 20:10

Cross posting from Indian interests thread dated 11/12/2012


RamaY wrote:The Gujarat experiment is very important in many levels.

First the C-system called this state the Hindutva-Lab! To indicate two things. The first part is Hindutva, as if it is a non-Hindu, anti-human and anti-national political paradigm. The second part is that Gujarat is the lab where this anti-minority, anti-nationalistic and most importantly non-Hindu ideologies are tested. This effort is to impose Naziness on Hindutva. This failed to convince Gujaratis in 2002.

Then the C-system tried to create rift within Hindu society by using (sic) secularism as the denominator in addition to scaring the religious minorities. This too failed to convince Gujaratis in 2007.

Now the C-system is trying to use Caste to divide Hindu society. We need to see how this pans out.

If NM wins 117 seats in the upcoming elections we can conclude that -

"The Indian nation can be ruled using a governance model that will not divide its people in the name of Religion or Secularism or Casteism. Such a governance model is appreciated and supported by all Indians irrespective of their religion, caste, social and economic status. And such governance can lead to overall progress and empowerment of that society. And such a society is not only recognized by other powers in the world but also respected by them. And all this is achieved without leaving Hindu Dharma"

ShauryaT garu - That is your Hindutva definition.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 20:25

SaiK wrote:It is deeply saddening that we are either family centric or kingship lovers when it comes to be governed in the future.

Saikji,

Why would you conclude that support for Modi is akin to 'kingship loving'? Its the same as support for Obama or any other popular leader...

If you think the US is led by processes and not through leadership qualities, that's an incorrect assumption. There's no country, corporate or other organization that would not benefit from dynamic leadership.

As a matter of fact, I would say typically 'bureaucratic' India suffers from too much of process and too little of leadership.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 22 Dec 2012 21:17

Arjun: you have not answered my questions. You are resuming the conversation with dynasties being guilty
stance.

Ravi: shouldn't culling be on case to case basis?

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 21:22

SwamyG wrote:Arjun: you have not answered my questions. You are resuming the conversation with dynasties being guilty stance.

If you are refering to these questions:
Why do you presuppose the individual is selfish? So if the welfare of country is important, will you accept a leader who exhibits that via intentions and actions?

My answer would be, it does not matter if the presupposition is such in order to protect the nation, & no I would not accept such a leader in case the dynastic statistics of the country leadership are bad.

Your same questions can be applied to US Presidents being allowed more than 2 terms - why do you think the US places a restriction on democracy using legislation to bar this?
Last edited by Arjun on 22 Dec 2012 21:26, edited 2 times in total.

Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7038
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Muppalla » 22 Dec 2012 21:22

The point is not to use 1984 to politically exonerate Modi. The point is that it is hard to attack evil when we so widely condone it in other contexts. Third, the social and political isolation of Muslims is a large, complex phenomenon, in part a product of the tyranny of the compulsory identities the Congress has produced. It is also exacerbated by the fact that friends of minorities like the Samajwadi Party are running no more than protection rackets for them, depending on a permanent tutelage. Unfortunately, attacking Modi has become a way of disguising our larger complicities. It is more about assuaging our guilty conscience than setting things right. No wonder the attacks lose their sheen.


Best ever way to put it.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2012 21:25

vijak, at the very least let us not name call..[every person has his own entitlement as a human being] just for the reason to say, we are better than street talks [argument: with one name call, one could entirely sway away from the focus of the point you are conveying].

Arjun, you are wrong.. actually, speaking a process not implemented is not a process in place. bureaucracy exists all over the world. what kind and type, depends on individual country's wishes and their people. America is much more streamlined than that you highlight about Obama etc.. obama is just a position holder in the process. where as, our processes are driven by the political leadership.

you turned ulta pulta on the argument. just socho... no need to hurry up your thoughts in a bandwagonish approach towards our future.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 21:28

Saikji, I seriously have difficulty understanding your argument. How is support for Modi in India any different from support for Obama in the US?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2012 21:37

It is not about the support to modi or obama in the argument. It is about the support to Modi or Obama in what they do. In essence, corrections is what is needed for the future. We need to support a process change. If you return to my original thought post, you should read me as saying that. If Modi is the man, so be it!.. he is a good admin. great. let us have him as PM. But, that will only change him and not us.

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9202
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Hari Seldon » 22 Dec 2012 21:39

^^^SaiK garu,

Allow me to explain.

NM represents an alternative, democratically viable as well as demonstrateably sustainable template of governance. Arbit allegations of monarchist tendencies are more diversionary BS than anything else, IMVVHO.

Even if NM were never to make it to the Dilli gaddi (Shivaji never did, after all), his mere strength and presence and sway is enough to pull the polity out of its wanton branzen-ness and stupor, pull it towards the right, offer a credible alternative that might change non-BJP manifestos and so on.

Of course, I hope and pray, every single day, NM get the opportunity to serve Maa Bharti at least for one full term. You don't need 2/3rd majorities to make a difference. You only need clarity of purpose, vision and strength of character.

Two terms of NM back-to-back and his level of governance and service delivery will become the new normal in Delhi - the benchmarks and standards would themselves have risen spectacularly by then, as has happened in Guj.

Anyway, let's hope and see. Only.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2012 21:44

Not a bad thought for a good guy to get in there and cleanse up. But, it would be just like what MG did.. his policies can be followed by only him only.. how many of us billion can become MG? impossible. go away dude is what an aam admi will say., and that is exactly happened.. our setup is filled with raasta roko, public property destruction, rowdysim, babooze and rapes.

I want these elected leaders to vouch for a certain process change.. let Modi come out on those reforms list as his election plank. Cleaning up the $h!t we have made is no easy matter, till everyone clean up themselves. It is just not Modi alone. An agenda should be process and country wide, at the majority speak.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 22 Dec 2012 21:47

SaiK wrote: We need to support a process change.

We need to support a process change or a change of governance ideas / vision for India. And that is exactly what this thread is all about.

Modi has introduced a paradigm shift to the whole 'idea of India'. The point of this thread is to compare the two ideas of India (outlined in my introductory post) and choose the one which is better.

This is not about a person at all - it is about the core ideas / ideology that best suits India, and to identify the person that is most representative of the selected ideology, or best positioned to implement it.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7760
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Pratyush » 22 Dec 2012 21:56

To copy a highly respected member of BRF, gentle rakshaks, are we clear about the Idea of India? What does the ancient rashtra and the modern republic stand for? That we can contrast Modi with the Dynasty.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5337
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby vishvak » 22 Dec 2012 22:17

It is clear that at a level of state a specialized approach, such as development for Gujarat state, can be done within a decade.

That itself is a great situation. That itself shows that one doesn't have to be European to be proud of modern lifestyle.

Surely each state has something special, may be repeatative or similar.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3171
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 22 Dec 2012 22:20

SwamyG wrote:Ravi: shouldn't culling be on case to case basis?


SwamyG garu, the political cull sure has to be on a case to case basis. And to that extent we need to remember that all ie. all successful leaders have dealt with the legacy set-ups with maturity. If they do not the legacy strikes back. In fact Modi's relationship with Keshu Bhai is a good indication of what Modi is offering. He is quite willing to compete against what he sees as out of place and yet he would not go so far as to deny the legacy itself. Look at it this way, had he went over to Keshu Bhai only rub the salt in, he would never have done the Charansparsh. This is big symbolism - Modi style. Modi is obviously trying to send out and control his message. Modi is not acting like a later day Maharaja Sagar. He knows quite well that others before him have had as big or even bigger mandates and yet he is not willing to hold back his punches against Kongis, his real opponents (witness his Himachal Kong+Gujarat Kong < Gujarat BJP). Did you come across any comment by Modi against GPP that was filled with accusations.

Besides SwamyG garu you need to realise that Modi has a chance that most people (including successful politicians) do not get easily. The guy is still young by the standards of his profession and is not a dynast. Such an opportunity will make even the most mature men somewhat impatient. Which is what Modi is displaying right now and which is what is interpreted or sought to be projected at times as a disrespect for the legacy.



----------------------------------------------------

Re. Modi = = Hitler

While I say this I am acutely aware that we too can get more then what we bargain for. That risk is certainly there. Well sir welcome to the real world. Somebody like Modi may actually turn out to be the next Idi Amin. But I guess we have to draw a line between reasonable solutions for an understandable problem which is what Modi brand represents right now and just plain sh_ty luck which is how he is presented to the world by our Media. See to an easily perturbed mind, every prophecy of 'end of times' will be a matter of faith to be taken seriously.

To clear up the matter in context and as Vina ji failed to point out Hitler absolutely never ceased to draw out a hateworthy caricature of what he claimed were his opponents. In fact his rise was initiated and facilitated by his high vitriol against the Jews. Indian Muslims or other minorities are neither the Jews of that period nor is Modi using his any vitriol against minorities. In fact the nearest world is to Hitler is the Chicom.

Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 685
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Abhi_G » 22 Dec 2012 23:42

I sincerely hope NM does not have the same fate in BJP as Bose had in INC.

ranjbe
BRFite
Posts: 262
Joined: 12 Apr 2011 21:25

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ranjbe » 23 Dec 2012 00:36

Swamyji's arguments make sense in theory. However, it is not the principle of having dynastic rule that is being questioned, it is the qualifications of the dynasty itself. Any dispassionate reading on the Nehru-Gandhi clan brings up the following facts:
Motilal was the patriach and also the most successful of the clan, in the sense that although he was not educated in Western institutions, but was a very successful lawyer and became rich.
Motilal wanted Jawaharlal to join the ICS. He was sent to school in England (Harrow) in order that he get a head-start. Jawaharlal got a lower-second class degree from Cambridge, and knew he would never pass the ICS exam. More academically gifted (and poorer) cousins of his, such as RK Nehru and Kaul went to Allahbad University to get their first degree, and then took a loan to go to England, where they passed their ICS after getting first-class degrees from Oxbridge. Jawaharlal came back as a lawyer and was unsuccessful in his practice, before he joined politics.
Indira failed to pass her entrance exams to Oxford.
Rajiv tried to get a bachelors degree in Cambridge and then Imperial College. He failed in his efforts. He decided to become a pilot and then became PM, because what else, he was the Yuvraj. Sanjay was so poor in his studies that college was never an option for him.
Sonia had a high-school diploma and went to England to improve her English. She worked as an 'au pair' girl and waitress to support herself. She met and married Yuvraj and her fortune changed.
Current Yuvraj went to St. Stephen's on an athletic scholarship (?), then to a 'no-name' college in Florida. However, he defintely has a Masters degree from Cambridge (Cambridge is sure of this; as they are sure of Benazir's degree) in developmental economics (whatever that means).
One admits that academic skills are not prerequisite for being a successful politician. However, the degree of mediocrity in this family for generations makes one ask the obvious question: Where would they have been had they not being born where they were? What if Jawaharlal had been SDRE rather than TFTA? What if Sonia was a Nigerian instead of a gori, gori Italian? and so on, and so on...

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35640
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 23 Dec 2012 01:20

The problem with nomenclature is limiting a paradigm shift.. meaning, the very moment we classify human behavior like SDRE, TFTA, then it is all going towards stereotypical analysis with clear demarcations. We need out of the box thinking, when we are thinking of a solution for future INDIA. Please remember, these discussions might become the seeds of change for the future "great power" role India has to do. We don't want china to take that role in the Asian sphere. We have better history than them for both taking responsibilities and taking revenge on every nation on the planet. We are suited better to take the great power role, only to succumb to such divisive and categorical angle of how we are, so it is not possible.. and as such some brain shoots up with brilliance, we all go gun-go and lose the core essence of all these struggles.

Stronger people needed for core changes.. this is a framework and architecture approach for the future of the nation. We have a whole system that needs correction. It is high time we bring these out in public and tell the world around us, here is the challenge, now who want to mantle this? End result is going to be "the United States of India".

Sushupti
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5198
Joined: 22 Dec 2010 21:24

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sushupti » 23 Dec 2012 07:40

A new idea of India?

Tavleen Singh

Can Narendra Modi sell Indians a new dream of India? The first time I asked myself this question was after a university commencement ceremony he presided over in Ahmedabad some years ago. What was unusual about the ceremony was that it was completely Indian without being self-consciously so. The graduating students wore Indian clothes and saffron scarves instead of black caps and gowns and when they received their degrees from the Chief Minister, it was to the sound of Sanskrit chanting. It was as beautiful and pristine a commencement as I have seen anywhere. But, the reason why the occasion has remained vivid in my memory is because I saw in it the possibility of an Indian education system that could one day be decolonised.

This is crucial to a new dream of India is because if we continue to breed Indian children who dream American dreams, we can bet on our dear Bharat Mata remaining forever a second rate clone of some other country. The results from Gujarat indicate that Modi appeals to young, urban, middle-class Indians and most of my fellow political pundits have attributed this to his having touched an ‘aspirational’ chord. He himself spoke during the campaign of a ‘neo-middle class’ so he knows that he has tapped into a deep desire across India for better governance and an aspiration for prosperity. But, if Modi wants to sell a new dream, he will need to do much more than this.

In this column last week, I said that he is the only Indian political leader today with a clear economic vision. It is a vision that glorifies prosperity and not poverty and this has led poverty and this has led some commentators to already start speaking of him as India’s Deng Xiaoping. Deng brought prosperity to China by throwing Chairman Mao’s economic ideas into history’s trash can and if Modi decides to enter national politics, he will need to throw a lot of foolish economic ideas away and especially those that the RSS continues to propagate. But, he will need to do much more.

He will need to examine how to decolonise politics and governance especially in Delhi that to this day remains the last outpost of the British imperial system of governance. So we have political leaders who, in the name of security, live like minor potentates. They are served faithfully by bureaucrats trained to serve colonial masters and not the natives. The horrific gang rape of a medical student in Delhi has turned a harsh light on the police and revealed to the whole country how the police is more concerned about VIP security in India’s capital city than about the safety of young girls. Modi has done some good things in Gujarat but he has not even begun to think of modernising governance or policing.

India remains colonial not just in the way it is governed but in its mindset. So in the engagement with modern ideas and modern technology what younger Indians are losing very quickly is their sense of being Indian. One of the things that depresses me most on my travels in our fair and wondrous land is the number of young Indians who speak no Indian language well and speak English so badly that it is sometimes hard to make out whether they are speaking English at all. This has not happened in countries that are proud of their identity. China’s communist rulers may have obliterated their traditional architecture and crafts but the Chinese continue to speak, read and write Chinese. In India, books in Indian languages sell in such small numbers that the publishing industry survives on books written in English. Do we need more proof of India still being colonised in its essence?

So can Narendra Modi make a difference? Is it not already too late? And, what can he really do since he belongs to a political party whose idea of decolonisation when it was in power was to try to erase historical references to Brahmins eating beef? I do not know the answers to these questions but if Modi is interested in becoming prime minister in 2014, then he has more than a year in which to dwell on them.

Only a new dream will restore in India a sense of who she once was and what she would like to be again one day. As things stand all we do is pay lip service to our ‘ancient civilisation’ while watching it slowly disappear under the onslaught of modern ideas and modern technology. It is hard to think of a time when we needed a new dream more than we do now. It has to be a dream that is bigger than just a new economic vision but the glorification of prosperity instead of poverty is not a bad foundation for a new dream.

Follow Tavleen Singh on Twitter @ tavleen_singh

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-new ... /1048996/0

pentaiah
BRFite
Posts: 1676
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby pentaiah » 23 Dec 2012 09:43

What is wrong with dynasty politics nothing except
My father nor mother was
PM or CM
Minister nor Babu
MP or MLA

All they did was give me useless education which does not give power over others

The worst part of dynasty
Neither can I do what my parents failed to do, to my kids
Hence I hate dynasty
Why should I be nice when they are nasty?

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Agnimitra » 23 Dec 2012 10:09

Sushupti wrote:

She hit the bullseye in saying that the revival of the innate spirit of India is the chief feature of all this 'asmita' politics of Modi, and secondly that this dharmic flowering has its foundation in the strength of the new rashtra's political economy. According to one theory of the purushaarthas, dharma has its natural basis in artha. So the romanticization of poverty and tragic karma, of dhimmitude, and the glorification of macaulayism needs to be kicked out lock, stock and barrel.

At the same time, I am worried that dynastic sycophancy has its rival in a personality cult. If Modi can use his personal charisma (gifted largely by the incredible campaign to demonize him) to build a new infrastructure and cadre of leadership and institutional reform, that would be best. If he can bite off a faction from the RSS and 'saffron brigade' and make them followers of his ideology, then it would be best. If at least one other regional leader like him can emerge, it would be a good trend setter.

Tavleen Singh wrote:Deng brought prosperity to China by throwing Chairman Mao’s economic ideas into history’s trash can and if Modi decides to enter national politics, he will need to throw a lot of foolish economic ideas away and especially those that the RSS continues to propagate.

Thirdly, could knowledgeable people here summarize the differences, if any, between Modi's ideology of political economy and K.N. Govindacharya ji's? The so called political-economy ideological schism in the 'saffron brigade' between current RSS thought and Modi-ism would be a welcome development if it eventually materializes explicitly. It would lead to the emergence of an Indic Left that can stand in opposition to an Indic right wing, establishing a strong presence on both sides of the isle. If Modi can cause such an Indic Left to consolidate ideologically and politically by first tearing away a faction from it and going one way, then such internal schismatic politics might be a good thing. IMHO, ultimately a politically powerful Indic Left will carry the day, not least by attracting a large number of cadre and intellectuals who currently are stuck in the pinko brigade, but who are actually ripe for defection if an alternative exists and a bridge is provided. JMT.

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6821
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby archan » 23 Dec 2012 10:25

pentaiah wrote:What is wrong with dynasty politics nothing except
My father nor mother was
PM or CM
Minister nor Babu
MP or MLA

All they did was give me useless education which does not give power over others

The worst part of dynasty
Neither can I do what my parents failed to do, to my kids
Hence I hate dynasty
Why should I be nice when they are nasty?

If you cannot post in simple English with properly formed statements, stop posting on these forums, or else you will be debarred. Final warning.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 23 Dec 2012 10:33

Carl wrote:She hit the bullseye in saying that the revival of the innate spirit of India is the chief feature of all this 'asmita' politics of Modi..

The 'Asmita' factor is hugely significant...Hopefully this concept can be refined and rolled out across India at a state-level. What that would mean for example is that 'Moditva' is supportive of say revival of Tamil spirit and cultural identity as long as (a) it does not become chauvinistic and (b) the local revival remains harmonious with and within the context of the larger Indic spirit....I am taking TN as just one example - hoping this concept would be applicable to all states.


Return to “BR Nostalgia Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests