Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Locked
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by kmkraoind »

National Interest: One dynasty dimming - Shekar Gupta on Indian Express
I asked a senior (and always elected) Congress leader, then why was the Gandhi family still so important and had total sway over the party. He said, surely they cannot help anybody win elections, but they keep the party together. Their word is law and the party needs that discipline. Illustration: the moment Sonia or Rahul says something, everybody nods and falls in line. If Narasimha Rao or Sitaram Kesri said something, everybody broke out in rebellion and rashes.

You have to assess Rahul Gandhi's recent Jaipur speech in this perspective. It tugged immediately at fellow partymen's heartstrings, but made little impact beyond. So here is the answer to the first half of our question: the dynasty has become even stronger within the Congress, with not even a whiff of discontent of the kind Nehru (occasionally), Indira (twice and substantively so) and Rajiv (most significant of all) faced. The dynasty owns the party as never before. But its pan-national vote-catching appeal is history. At least for now.(courtesy of CBI, ED and IT)
This is the central problem with the party: its top leadership can no longer win national elections. Its efforts to rekindle the Gandhi-Nehru family nostalgia cannot go beyond the party faithful today. And it has no regional leaders to counter these 15-odd regional dynasts. Its own group of political scions is like a chamber of princes. They have failed to extend their influence beyond their own constituencies. The party's politics is trapped now in this rut. And you cannot pull it out of this simply by invoking the name of the family, even five generations of it. This just won't do in the India of 2014, three decades after Indira Gandhi's assassination.
ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1390
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by ashish raval »

Simple stuff. Not rocket science to understand it. You are only going somewhere in the party if you follow, nobody otherwise. Leaders in India are not hard to find as it required lowest iq level in the world.
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

Hopefully even the dim-witted among Indians starting to perceive that there is a little bit of a problem with this 'dynastic' thingie..?

Why the Gandhi family has outlived its sell-by date
member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20317 »

Arjun wrote:Modi bats for dalits to solemnize Hindu weddings
GANDHINAGAR: That Dalits are not even allowed entry into temples in some pockets of Gujarat has not stopped the Narendra Modi government from coming up with the revolutionary idea of training 'safai kamdars' or manual scavengers in karma-kand (Hindu religious rituals).

The move was endorsed by the state budget presented in the assembly earlier this week—a couple of days after BSP chief Mayawati announced her prime-ministerial ambitions, throwing her hat into a ring already occupied by Modi's.

Its spellbinding, for me, to see NM actually do what people just talk about.

I have lived in and around UP my whole life but even during the heydays of Mayawati, she could not think of anything of the sort.
Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4080
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Lilo »

My respect only increases for this man
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9373
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

Lilo wrote:
My respect only increases for this man
Amen.

I would love it if aspiring netas elsewhere latch onto these brilliant ideas and implement them in their areas - even if for vote-bang considerations, even if half-assedly, even if uncomprehendingly and even if they give zero credit to the idea source. Good things and best practices need to spread, regardless of whether NM gets credit for it or not.

-Hari
member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20317 »

Arjun wrote:Hopefully even the dim-witted among Indians starting to perceive that there is a little bit of a problem with this 'dynastic' thingie..?

Why the Gandhi family has outlived its sell-by date


Seems like there is a widespread feeling even among some educated folks that INC is worthless without dynasty.

Actually INC without this silly dynasty can be made to work. After all historically all the effective INC governments were those that were lead by Leaders from outside the dyansty. This silly notion that INC is dependent on dynasty for the votes that it can get needs to be killed.

The success of NM may actually end up giving us a viable opposition too.

In any case if INC cannot survive without the dynasty at the center then I am dead sure INC needs to go for good.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16268
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SwamyG »

Suraj wrote:Please keep this thread to discussions about Narendra Modi. This thread isn't ever going to be anything like a campaign headquarters if so many posts in multiple threads are reminiscent of rudalis railing about everything remotely negative that's tangentially associated with the man.
How can one keep it only about Modi? I am not sure why Tharoor or others are out of scope, as they belong in the INC camp, or as some would call from the dynasty camp? Modi being a politician better face tangential attacks as well. If Rahul, Sonia et al face tangential attacks from the others, so why not Modi? The use of the word rudali isn't it inappropriate?
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

SwamyG wrote:How can one keep it only about Modi? I am not sure why Tharoor or others are out of scope, as they belong in the INC camp, or as some would call from the dynasty camp? Modi being a politician better face tangential attacks as well. If Rahul, Sonia et al face tangential attacks from the others, so why not Modi? The use of the word rudali isn't it inappropriate?
SwamyG, This thread was originally envisaged to contrast and analyze the ideologies, performance, values and electoral potential of both Modi and the Dynasty. These two represent the driving forces today behind the two leading political organizations in India, and are the main contenders for 2014 - and hence the focus on the two.

One key feature of the Dynasty is a belief in cynical politics, as opposed the aspirational tone of Modi. On this aspect alone - I agree that Tharoor is a misfit in the Congress. I really do think he would be a much better fit in the Modi camp. Unfortunately - his presence in the Congress does not in any way change the fundamental orientation of that party - which is driven by the ideology of the Dynasty. So, not sure what a discussion of Tharoor's personality contributes to the larger scheme of things.

Also, this thread provides 'equal opportunity' to both Modi and Dynasty supporters - but certainly not any expectation of 'equal outcome'.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RoyG »

Modi doesn't give interview to Ashutosh so he is suppressing his freedom of expression. How do the other participants manage to keep a straight face. :lol:

[youtube]-wQN68zh7gU#![/youtube]
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7113
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Muppalla »

Pretty good article about Modi's strategy, BJP's strategy and also gives some clues about Karnataka.

Will BJP let Modi follow his own logical pace in 2014 run-up?
Gujarat CM may have risen the BJP ladders ahead of next year’s Lok Sabha polls but for now he is on a wait-and-watch move, and the strategy makes sound political sense

Narendra Modi's rapid evolution from provincial leader to prime ministerial favourite is a testimony both to the failure of the Congress and the middle-class hunger for a hero figure. Disappointed in Manmohan Singh, the upwardly mobile millions are now pinning their hopes on Modi. But for Modi himself, the willy-nilly projection on to the national centrestage is fraught with risk.

Rahul Gandhi's reluctance to be projected as the Congress’s prime ministerial nominee is understandable; battered by scams and an economic slowdown, his government has little to offer the voter. The hype generated by the youth brigade at the Jaipur chintan shivir has died down all too quickly and the party is sceptical about Gandhi’s efforts to run it like a corporation.

Modi's restraint is less understandable, given that he is at present the tallest leader not only in the BJP but across the political landscape — a fact acknowledged by the party leadership that seeks to make him the face of its electoral campaign. Even the RSS leadership, which has no love at all for Modi, has accepted him.

Modesty is not one of Narendra Modi's vices but he seems to have realised that his ascension to the national space may be too big a challenge, and too soon. Ten assembly elections lie between the budget and the general elections. For both Gandhi and Modi, they represent an opportunity to test the electorate's response in their roles as campaign pointsmen, before committing themselves to a mutual contest.

At the very least, Modi would like to wait until after the Karnataka elections, due by May this year. The state represents a Catch-22 situation for Modi. If he is projected as the face of the BJP, he has no choice but to go to Karnataka. And then, if the BJP fails to hang on to its government — as appears likely in the current scenario — it would appear that Modi is not effective outside of Gujarat. This may suit a section of BJP leaders, who would therefore seek to bring him into the limelight.


Later in the year, the BJP faces critical contests in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Delhi. But with strong chief ministers, or chief ministerial candidates, its prospects in these states are brighter. So none of these states represents a challenge like Karnataka, where the party might just be humiliated by one of its own, former chief minister BS Yeddyurappa.

There are two streams of thought in the BJP regarding Karnataka. The first, propounded by the likes of general secretary Ananth Kumar, is that Yeddyurappa’s split from the party will make no difference to its electoral prospects. His vote bank will be split and he will end up in the wilderness, like Uma Bharti and Kalyan Singh before him.

The second is that Yeddy's Lingayat votebank is intact and will damage the BJP; and so he needs to be brought back into the fold.

BJP president Rajnath Singh subscribes to the latter stream of thought. However, he cannot offer Yeddy the chief ministership, which is his basic demand. In fact, a message was sent to Yeddy from the Rajnath camp that he should congratulate the new party president as a precursor to talks between the two.
But Yeddyurappa flatly refused.

Rajnath has since offered Yeddy a CM of his choice, a role at the centre and deputy chief ministership for his trusted aide and former state power minister, Shobha Karandlaje, though Yeddy is yet to respond.


Modi has carefully kept out of the Karnataka imbroglio, though Yeddy admires him as a leader and keeps in touch with him through a trusted intermediary.

Modi is also carefully building up his equity both within the party and with regional players. Although the JD(U) has refused to comment on Modi as a potential PM, the SAD and AIADMK clearly have no problems. And even as RSS’s number 2, Suresh Joshi, prefers Sushma Swaraj as the PM candidate, number 3 Suresh Soni prefers Rajnath Singh and both RSS number 1 and 2 regard Madhya Pradesh chief minister Shivraj Singh as a potential compromise candidate, it is generally accepted that if Modi cannot be stopped if he manages the numbers through regional alliances.

For now, Modi is waiting to assess the Congress strategy. First, will it advance general elections to 2013, clubbing them with the assembly elections? Or would it like to present another budget before going to polls, thus giving Modi more time to establish himself? Second, will the Congress harp on the communal plank, even as Modi relies on the secular appeal of economic development? Third, will Rahul Gandhi attempt to distance himself from the crony capitalistic policies of his own government and project a pro-poor image while painting Modi as pro-rich?

So while Modi's measured approach may irritate his supporters within and outside the party, as well as the media, the strategy makes sound political sense. The question is whether he will be allowed to follow his own pace.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RoyG »

His strategy is to let the Congress cook in the pot while building up his mystique in the media and society. If he were to be declared PM all the excitement will drop after 1 month. Moreover, I agree with the above assessment regarding Karnataka. Congress may declare early elections which would explain timing of "dream budget", so that it can hold onto seats in coordination with other sec-left parties. In this case, if the Modi and Modi faction within BJP and RSS were to have any doubts, Jaitely could be a dark horse in the event that UPA-3 cant muster the numbers and other parties in NDA coalition fear their vote base would swing to Modi.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

ravi_g wrote:
Arjun wrote:Hopefully even the dim-witted among Indians starting to perceive that there is a little bit of a problem with this 'dynastic' thingie..?

Why the Gandhi family has outlived its sell-by date


Seems like there is a widespread feeling even among some educated folks that INC is worthless without dynasty.

Actually INC without this silly dynasty can be made to work. After all historically all the effective INC governments were those that were lead by Leaders from outside the dyansty. This silly notion that INC is dependent on dynasty for the votes that it can get needs to be killed.

The success of NM may actually end up giving us a viable opposition too.

In any case if INC cannot survive without the dynasty at the center then I am dead sure INC needs to go for good.
I don't think so! As Shekhar Gupta says, the power of the dynasty has grown in the Congress simply because after them there is absolutely no one who can lead the party. The party would agree to no one else. The crop of non-Gandhi leaders in INC are perhaps second-generation, none has the charisma of their parent's time, and as second-generation princes they command only so much respect among their peers. The pan-Congress leadership is in the hands of sycophants and they too would not be accepted. Pranab Mukherjee has been rocketed to Rashtrapati Bhawan!

The Congress knows that they can be together only if the Gandhis stay. If the Congress stays 10 years in the opposition, then most probably even within the party the Gandhi magic will not work anymore, and Congress can fall apart.

So it would be the next elections, say 2019 that would decide whether Congress remains or breaks up into regional parties.
Saral
BRFite
Posts: 1663
Joined: 16 Jan 2005 14:05

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Saral »

Warning: Praising Narendra Modi is injurious to your career in "secular" India.
http://pic.twitter.com/HVWf6HocQb
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by VikramS »

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/setu ... 51414.html

This Ram Sethu project has the potential to become a rallying issue for those who are still not concerned about economic issues.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RoyG »

No doubt, there will be a political confrontation if they do indeed decide to go ahead with the project.
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

nsriram wrote:Warning: Praising Narendra Modi is injurious to your career in "secular" India.
http://pic.twitter.com/HVWf6HocQb
Yes, certainly if one is dreaming of a 'career' with leftist and Islamist organizations (though I can't imagine why anyone would actually want that) - it would be injurious. In mainstream corporate India though - Modi's stock is very much on an upswing and is poised to go much higher.
member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20317 »

RajeshA ji, there is no doubt that the present crop amongst Kongis have hardly a chance in electoral politics without the Dynasty.

In fact if you remember there was a Predictions thread sometime back and I had said that this man baby will never be PM. Right now Rahul is a rock tied to the Kongis neck while the poor Kongi is in deep waters.

The way I see it is that this is a big multi year decline of Kongis. In fact the harder they try their old tactics the more motivated will the Internet Hindu get. And unlike the MSM, Internet Hindu is actually linked to at the ground level in at least the Urban areas.

But what I was hoping for is that somewhere hidden behind this decrepit Kongi leadership is a future PVNR.

Basically it is time for Kongis to do Prayaschit and get their Sanchit Karm in order.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

I would vote for congress for the rest of my life, if they
1. Build Ram Temple and
2. Recaptures PoK
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Pranav »

Arjun wrote:Hopefully even the dim-witted among Indians starting to perceive that there is a little bit of a problem with this 'dynastic' thingie..?

Why the Gandhi family has outlived its sell-by date
G family will continue as long as foreign entities controlling voting systems find them useful.

But if G's get too unpopular, then foreign entities will ease them out so the present colonial system can continue with another face.

The safe assumption being that if we are happy to have unverifiable foreign-installed voting software, then it is perfectly reasonable and legitimate for foreign entities to exercise that influence.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12271
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Pratyush »

RamaY wrote:I would vote for congress for the rest of my life, if they
1. Build Ram Temple and
2. Recaptures PoK

Wont it loose them the sikular votes.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

^Pratyush ji,

If one were to go thru various threads of this forum, the following Axioms can be said about the socio-electoral politics of India

1. Majority of Indians vote on the basis of their caste, creed, religion, money power, alliances etc of the candidate. These voters value the victory of the candidate from their caste/religion and who gives them most money than raising prices, corruption, failure of law-and-order, lack of basic civic infrastructure, unemployment etc.,

2. There is little impression/influence/motivation a national party leader can make w.r.t voting patterns and the electability of a candidate. The role of the national parties and their leaders is limited to making the right alliance of the winnable candidates, regional power structures, castes and religions.

Lets call this school of thought as "Yatha Praja, Tatha Raja" - Since the people elect the corrupt, inefficient and selfish people as their leaders, those qualities bubble up. The Congress-System personifies this thought process.

Then we have the other perspective as articulated by Sri Narendra Modi in his SRCC speech.

3. That there is a possibility that leaders of this nation can bring tangible and visible change in law-and-order, civic infrastructure, employment, national security, economy, inflation etc., using the same constitution, laws, democracy, govt administration and citizenry.

4. That the leadership of the nation can make the ordinary and even uneducated (often people think education reduces corruption and I posted why this is wrong) public to go beyond caste, creed, religion, money power, alliances etc in electing their leaders.

I call this school of thought as "Yatha Raja, Tatha Praja" - Since leaders provide honest, efficient and nationalistic vision and governance these qualities sink down in to underlying society. The Narendra Modi system personifies this thought process.

Given this,

Decades of secular education, mainstream media propaganda and divisive votebank politics created a large group of dhimmi indians (my guesstimate is ~30% voters) who want to get the second type of governance system by electing first type of leadership. No wonder they are disappointed time and again, and in turn become violent social jambies hurting the larger society around them with their secular fundamentalism and dynasty sycophancy.

Now Narendra Modi is offering a different option to this large group of voters and slowly but surely the message is sinking in. The mainstream media and congress-system will raise the bets till the last moment of the elections and even after that thru EVM manipulation.

All patriotic and hopeful Indians must make better use of this opportunity. If they reject this opportunity they may have another 20 years same before another honest leader can raise in this great nation.
member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20317 »

'Yatha Raja, Tatha Praja' in the next step becomes 'Yatha Praja, Tatha Raja'

The problem is the establishment of a working relationship.

Right now as it is it is a barely working relationship. Mostly subsidizing of Rajas by the Prajas. Raja has developed new loyalties secure in the belief that they will be well looked after once they are overthrown the question of which arises only when the Praja can get wiser.

So has the Praja moved on, having being stung more then once. All constitutents of this Praja are today at one or the other stage of "once it is excusable twice it is my mistake thrice I am idiot".

And that is right about the 20 years that it would take for the fresh option.
svenkat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4727
Joined: 19 May 2009 17:23

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by svenkat »

But off the cuff- let me just say this - back in Pandit Nehru and Mme. Gandhi's days, there was a lot more direct contact between the people and Gandhi family. A lot of people jump on that and often times blame every Gandhi family member after Rajiv Gandhi for lacking adequate competence.

After that era, the population became so large that only some form of distant contact - electronic or print media - could truly be maintained.

It has nothing to do with the calibre of the leadership - there simply wasn't enough time to talk to people.

This is true of other political parties also - not just INC and the Gandhis.

If one thinks the head of the BJP goes around talking to each and every constituent - then one is being deluded.

Because of this communication problem, India is today reduced to the distorted media image of itself - a 160 character twitter update that somehow allegedly captures the mind of a billion and a half souls!

While the rest of the India slowly lurches towards its cyberpunk reality, a few brave ones speak of a post-cyberpunk India where individuals still matter and where the actions of a small group of people can deeply affect the percetions of national reality.
Forum baiter-in-chief on communication in modern indian polity.

The Nehru-Gandhis build on the communication established by Nehru-Indira with leaders in different parts of India-in far flung areas.
kvraghavaiah
BRFite
Posts: 126
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 17:20
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by kvraghavaiah »

Hi here is a 'good government model' proposed. Please check and post your opinions here.

http://www.theknowledgeone.com/documents/Government.htm
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

Ravi_g garu,

Yes over a period of time "Yatha Raja Tatha Praja" becomes "Yatha Praja Tatha Raja". But what kind of Raja makes what kind of Praja, who in turn make what kind of Rajas? If you see the current Praja are the product of the Rajas since independence and no wonder they are begetting the Napunsaka Narakasuras of today.

The working relationship between Raja -> Praja is the constitution, law and order and governance, while it is democratic elections and effective civic behavior w.r.t Praja -> Raja. Both these equations are being subverted by the Raja group (Congress-system) starting from subverting constitutional bodies such as Election Commission, Justice System, Police, CBI, Economy, Stock Markets as well as the other side of the equation thru Mainstream Media, political B-teams and EVM manipulations.

The praja cannot move on in a given nation. They have to live in the country and have to elect/bring their leadership. 1.21 billion Bharatiyas cannot leave India and go to United States over night.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9373
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

The loose cannon is determined to outdo Doggy raja, seems like.... that too by writing in the Pak press...

Should malnourished children of Gujarat eat Modi's roads and factories? Katju writes in Pak daily

Dunno who is the intended audience, but it certainly ain't aimed at aam aadmi or swinging the fence sitters or anything like that. The audience could be (i) 10 john pot (ii) the moose limb vote bank (iii) paki ISI sponsored fai types ogling for some paid vacations, err, conferences (iv) serving judges nearing retirement... who knows?

Whatever, the more this crackpot opens his mouth and exposes his utter bankruptcy of reason, the better for the NM camp only. Maybe NM is sponsoring him only, who knows....
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RoyG »

NCTC slowly being pushed into fruition. They will try to give IB arrest powers before elections and break up the growing anti-cong political opposition.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

RoyG wrote:NCTC slowly being pushed into fruition. They will try to give IB arrest powers before elections and break up the growing anti-cong political opposition.
Add the fact that >100 people were given notices(?) against their social networking comments against Kuriyan.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16268
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SwamyG »

Arjun wrote: SwamyG, This thread was originally envisaged to contrast and analyze the ideologies, performance, values and electoral potential of both Modi and the Dynasty. These two represent the driving forces today behind the two leading political organizations in India, and are the main contenders for 2014 - and hence the focus on the two.
When rubber meets the roads, it boils down to discussion between two cults. A cult formed by millions who became disgruntled, disenfranchised, hopeless after witnessing the vision-less leaders and politicians, and the other cult formed around worshiping a particular family - because that family was involved in the freedom struggle.
One hopes Modi does not become another Jayalalitha, Mamta ityadi. Hope the values and lessons he learned during his Sangh days keep him grounded to earth and not act with authoritarianism or eccentricity. If you look at our recent history, people pretty much voted on personalities - be it Laloo, MGR, NTR, YSR, Rajiv, Jaya, Mamta etc etc and on personalities who controlled power for a particular caste or group.

I voiced my opinion against the usage of dynasty, because an ardent INC supporter has to just google, and bring out family connections in BJP and the parties it usually associates itself with.

In my opinion, this thread is discussing only personalities, and not policies.
Last edited by SwamyG on 26 Feb 2013 08:22, edited 2 times in total.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

SwamyG wrote: One hopes Modi does not become another Jayalalitha, Mamta ityadi. Hope the values and lessons he learned during his Sangh days keep him grounded to earth and not act with authoritarianism or eccentricity. If you look at our recent history, people pretty much voted on personalities - be it Laloo, MGR, NTR, YSR, Rajiv, Jaya, Mamta etc etc and on personalities who controlled power for a particular caste or group.
This is not a fair ==ing!

If we study any leader be it Lalloo, MGR, NTR, YSR, Rajiv, Jaya, Mamta, Maya, Gandhi, Nehru, Patel etc., we can understand one thing. A leaders world-view, temperament, attitude towards power is predetermined before they come to power and it shows up within first year or two of them coming to power.

Very rarely we see an individual change their world-view and temperament after few years of them coming to power. One example that comes to my mind is Ashoka.

NM's world view, temperament and attitude towards power/rashtra/governance is all there in open for public to see. He has been CM of Gujarat for past 11 years.

Would it change if and when he becomes PM of India? I do not think so. It will need a Kalinga type event for him to change, even then he would have to seek an non-Bharatiya ideological/spiritual guru for that.
Misra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 100
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 09:03

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Misra »

Modi is different from the others mentioned in the post above. He is, to me, a very progressive leader who, refreshingly and consciously, shuns the conventional divide-and-rule politics (aka vote bank politics). He is a student of politics, is both self-aware and has a finger on the pulse of the nation, and has shown the integrity and courage needed to change nation-defining discourse. He has steadfastly avoided getting trapped in tokenism. Even in his speech to the SRCC students, we did not hear him refer to religion/caste/ethnicity/gender based topics. He takes great pains to emphasize (by silence!) that when he talks of development he makes no distinction between Hindus or Muslims, for instance. He understands his responsibility to educate by example. That is the kind of leadership I would like to see, not just in India.
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8851
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vijayk »

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/the-c ... 38466.html
The confused criticism of Narendra Modi
With Narendra Modi increasingly taking centre stage as BJPs possible Prime Ministerial candidate, the voice of Modi baiters is becoming shriller. Most critics have two sticks to beat him with – 2002 riots and malnourishment. Let’s take a few recent articles in this genre:

India, as dreamt up by Modi by Salil Tripathi in Mint

All the perfumes of Arabia by Markandey Katju in Outlook

What makes Modi unacceptable by Rohit Pradhan in Outlook
. Modi spoke of exports, education, teachers training, agricultural growth, industrial development, employment generation and Tripathi could see no big ideas. Modi’s biggest idea is to spur people on to realise their dreams and aspirations. Tripathi completely missed it and he may have done well to read Sandipan Deb’s “Modi’s motivational message” in the same paper.
Tripathi goes on to accuse that the youth wing members of the BJP heckled the few hundred protesters outside SRCC. He conveniently forgets to mention that a couple of thousand students were cheering him inside the auditorium and that the protesters outside also belonged to different political parties. And for a person who can see nothing right with Modi, he goes on to say that some of the women protesters who were arrested have said that they were groped at the police station. Tripathi sitting in London probably doesn’t know that Delhi is ruled by the Congress and the Delhi police is under the control of the central government, also run by a Congress led alliance. :lol:
And is that the shape of things to come, of a leader addressing the cult, while some women protesters got molested…”. So the SRCC students are now part of an imaginary cult and women protesters were molested! Where did Tripathi source his information from? His allegation sounds more and more like Rahul Gandhi‘s discovery of graves in Bhatta-Parsaul ahead of the elections in Uttar Pradesh. In Rahul Gandhi‘s favour at least is the fact that he travelled to Bhatta-Parsaul, which is more than what can be said of Tripathi. Today this passes off for journalism. India, as dreamt of by Modi, was very well articulated by Modi in his speech at SRCC, if only Tripathi had listened to it. It is an India which is prosperous, and without vote bank politics, whether that is based on caste, creed, religion, gender or age. :rotfl: OUCH . Tripathi... That got to hurt ..
Markandey Katju in his piece writes, “To those who talk of development of Gujarat under Modi I ask this question: Should the malnourished children of Gujarat eat the roads, electricity and factories which Modi has created?”
While Katju may not know the reason why some Muslims disagree, these two Muslims very clearly said that communalism has been a scourge of Gujarat, like the rest of India, for long and this is the first time that ten years of tranquillity and peace has been enjoyed in Gujarat. Both these individuals run businesses – one is Nadeem Jaffri who runs Hearty Mart enterprises, a retail venture and the other is Talha Sareshwala, CEO & MD, of Parsoli Motors.
Gujarat’s human development indicators (HDI) in most cases is better than the all India average. While it is not the best in India, it is nowhere close to being the worst and its improvement in the last ten years is in most cases among the best. That is why it features among the top performing states in India Today‘s annual rankings consistently. However, there is no gain saying that the HDI indicators of India and Gujarat as well are appalling. When starvation deaths happen in Thane district, what can be more shameful than that for India.
And for those who want to quote Modi’s remarks to Wall Street Journal on malnourishment of figure conscious women, please go and listen to the audio recording available on the Journal’s website. Modi said that the dietary habits of Gujarati’s has lacked proteins and then half in jest his comment as about middle class and upper middle class women. His comment was not on all malnourished children.
As far as eating factories, roads and electricity is concerned, people in Gujarat do not need to do that. People in Gujarat will have enough jobs if there are proper roads, electricity and factories so as to earn decent and respectable livelihoods to afford balanced and healthy diet and have access to other facilities like education and healthcare. :rotfl: :rotfl: Kajtu says "So the people are not eating factories, electricity and roads. That's exactly what I said. Ha Ha Ha Ha.. Modi lovers! I won this one"

Gujarat’s growth is not all about big industries, even though headlines would suggest as such. Read this excellent piece from Mint – “The Surat Fashion Matrix“. While Tirupur and Coimbatore are losing out, thanks to very poor power availability and environmental challenges, Surat and Gujarat are winning.
While criticising the HDI of Gujarat, the same people fail to ask similar questions of other governments, both at the states and the Centre. Often it is written that Modi’s treatment of minorities has been unfair without providing any basis for the same except that in 2002 riots took place. See what Sachar Committee has to say about Muslims in West Bengal, where BJP has virtually no presence and only secularists like the Left Front, the Congress and the Trinamool Congress dominate the political firmament.

Twice senior policemen have been assassinated in broad daylight in Kidderpore, and 48% of prisoners in jails are Muslims (when their share of population is 27%). The HDI of Muslims in the state? The less said, the better. Read Sunanda K Datta Ray’s “Bengal’s rough and tough underbelly“. Without economic growth, there can be no upliftment and improved HDI – whether for any community or for the entire population of a state or of a country. And Modi talks about that growth and not about reservations, financial and other hand outs. No noblesse oblige for him. The fruits of growth and better infrastructure are available to everyone irrespective of gender, caste, creed or religion.
Rohit Pradhan writes, “India can survive poor governance for the next few years but what it cannot survive is the further estrangement of its Muslim minority.” Indeed after the loot of the last five years, as evident from the daily scams that are being unearthed, I am not too sure that India can “survive” another five or ten years of such loot. I fervently pray that whoever comes to power next believes in better governance and less loot. And is the Muslim community feeling estranged just because of Modi? I have no doubt that India is much polarised today along religious lines. While most Indians have moved beyond 1992 an 2002, there is a segment which derives its sustenance from dividing India and they will not allow the fault lines to heal.
A final word on what even some Modi supporters feel is a valid criticism against him – he has not expressed regret for what happened in 2002 when he was the chief minister. I have felt that he probably didn’t apologise because that wouldn’t suit his constituency in the state and also he didn’t want an apology to be used as an admission of guilt by his numerous critics. But a recent article by William Dalrymple – Apologising for Amritsar is pointless. Better redress is to never forget - has me rethinking. If Modi is proven guilty in the court of law, let him get the severest of punishment under whatever provisions of the penal code he is convicted. That will be the best lesson to ensure that something like what happened in Delhi in 1984 and Gujarat in 2002 (both Godhra and post-Godhra) is not repeated. But this charade of apologizing 20, 30 and 200 years later for electoral and/ or trade gains is something that can be stopped. The Congress apologised for 1984 and at the same time gave tickets to the accused for elections even in 2009 till a Sikh journalist threw a shoe at Chidambaram. What are such apologies worth and why demand them?
Theo_Fidel

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

You lost me at point #1. We can not have this sort of nonsense that reeks of privilege and eugenics. We have had hyper competitive exam for IAS work, so tell me how wonderful that service is again....
kvraghavaiah wrote:Hi here is a 'good government model' proposed. Please check and post your opinions here.

http://www.theknowledgeone.com/documents/Government.htm
1. For nominating in elections, the candidates must meet the requirements in intelligence, observation, aptitude, assertiveness, honesty, knowledge, wishing the well being of the country and enough physical health. Nationwide competitive test for the job of a politician has to be conducted for checking the above qualities through examinations.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Misra wrote:Even in his speech to the SRCC students, we did not hear him refer to religion/caste/ethnicity/gender based topics. He takes great pains to emphasize (by silence!) that when he talks of development he makes no distinction between Hindus or Muslims, for instance. He understands his responsibility to educate by example. That is the kind of leadership I would like to see, not just in India.
It is OK at state level to ignore these issues, but they are inescapable at national level. Sooner or later he is going to have to confront these demons, ignoring them only pushes the question further down the road. We can walk and chew paan at the same time. Development and social justice must go hand in hand.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9373
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ So if NM refuses to play identity politics - which is basically a game designed by and for the Congress & clones ecosystem - and changes the rules by going directly to the people (his #1 strength is popular support from the rank and file, not backroom wheeling-dealing with the neta-babu types), he is ignoring "social justice"?
We can walk and chew paan at the same time. Development and social justice must go hand in hand.
Classic motherhood+apple-pie statement, no?

Topped by vague assertions ("Inescapable") sans supporting evidence only. "Inescapable"? "Social justice"? Sure. Each to his opinion. Jai ho.

P.S.
Yikes, I know, moi took the bait only...
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RamaY »

:) HS garu,

Did you notice? The prophets now claim that it is :eek: OK :eek: to ignore (the correct word would have been "overcome") religion/caste/ethnicity/gender based identities :P

Why? Why? Why?

Allah knows the best.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Suraj »

Modi should continue to appeal to people the way he does, rather than attempt to peddle snake oil like the average neta. His SRCC talk does talk about social justice and economic development. He just happens to do so differently from the norm, which amounts to pandering to the sentiments of narrow vote banks separately. For him and his advisors to be swayed by such advice to 'tell people what they're used to hearing' would be a big mistake; his primary appeal lies in his proven background in accomplishing things his way.

Another mistake is associating his ability to influence upcoming local elections, with his momentum on the national level for the next general elections. This is setting him up for failure, by associating him with the inabilities of others, and projecting their failures upon him. The BJP should do whatever it can to win the local polls, and should also use that as an opportunity for Modi to meet people around the country and get them to know him and his accomplishments, but people vote differently for national and state elections, even when they're held simultaneously, as has been the case in the past.
Misra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 100
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 09:03

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Misra »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Misra wrote:Even in his speech to the SRCC students, we did not hear him refer to religion/caste/ethnicity/gender based topics. He takes great pains to emphasize (by silence!) that when he talks of development he makes no distinction between Hindus or Muslims, for instance. He understands his responsibility to educate by example. That is the kind of leadership I would like to see, not just in India.
It is OK at state level to ignore these issues, but they are inescapable at national level. Sooner or later he is going to have to confront these demons, ignoring them only pushes the question further down the road. We can walk and chew paan at the same time. Development and social justice must go hand in hand.
My view is different from yours. We need to facilitate a tomorrow in which a political leader should have no business handling issues of religion/caste/ethnicity/gender etc. These issues are ideally best left to other specialized institutions--existing, nascent, or not yet imagined. Government must over time disengage from it's traditional role in these areas and in doing so redefine "governance" for itself. In addition, development and justice must necessarily be blind to these issues. Is this not what Modi appears to be striving for? In the speech he delivered in English in Chennai, he says categorically that secularism is development. That definition makes sense. On what basis are you saying that he is ignoring these issues? He understands the link between aspiration, development, governance and prosperity for all. Why should he and others like him not be encouraged?
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RoyG »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Misra wrote:Even in his speech to the SRCC students, we did not hear him refer to religion/caste/ethnicity/gender based topics. He takes great pains to emphasize (by silence!) that when he talks of development he makes no distinction between Hindus or Muslims, for instance. He understands his responsibility to educate by example. That is the kind of leadership I would like to see, not just in India.
It is OK at state level to ignore these issues, but they are inescapable at national level. Sooner or later he is going to have to confront these demons, ignoring them only pushes the question further down the road. We can walk and chew paan at the same time. Development and social justice must go hand in hand.
It's exactly your sort of mentality which perpetuates the problem. You label people based on religion, caste, etc and give them rights based on those labels. All this leftism and secularism nonsense has divided the country further and we now have too many categories all clamoring for more. What has social justice done for Muslims since independence? The best thing India can do is treat everyone equally and stop this stupid welfare business. Invest in infrastructure, security, power etc and let society take care of the rest. This is the best "social justice" we can give to the citizenry.
Locked