Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 09 Jul 2013 20:19

At least in Western-MH, cooperatives (sugar, agri, banks, etc, etc) are the major power brokers. INC+NCP control all of that. Pune-Satara again it is INC and NCP (Ajit Pawar seems to be in charge of Pune and Shivaji's vanshaj of Satara). Without BJP-SS-MNS cooperation, MH will at best give 2009 results.

Atriji and others might have more detailed knowledge about whole MH in general.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jul 2013 20:20

Per times now tv, rss has plainly told joshi and advani to play mentor role and make way for younger gen to build their own team.

BhairavP · Post by **BhairavP** » 09 Jul 2013 20:30

Urban centres in MH - BJP+SS/MNS/RPI will do well provided they reach an agreement for seat sharing - in 2009, in 6 out of 7 Mumbai seats, BJP/SS + MNS votes were > Congress votes, except in Mumbai N-W, where there is a significant ROP presence, and Priya Dutt is the sitting MP.
Yet, Congress won all 7 seats, as there was no agreement between the BJP/SS and MNS wrt. seat sharing.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 09 Jul 2013 21:18

Amol.D wrote:^ really its very puzzling. BJP / Sena is not in the picture at all in Sangli. MNS won just 1 seat. Granted its a municipality election but its a cause for concern.
added a bit later : now i think about it, sangli-miraj sugar belt was always a congress strong hold which later become pawars stronghold. its all about the local politics in municipal elections

Sangli Miraj or Solapur area in general is Congress Stronghold. The funny thing is Vijay Sinh Mohite Patil is a bigger politician than Sushil Kumar Shinde but obviously he does not find favour with Congee High Command.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 09 Jul 2013 21:24

fanne wrote:Any Maharastra based (or someone who has some connection with ground, against ppl like us sitting 7 samundar par) would like to speculate what is going on? I think there is paradigm shift right before our eyes which either we do not recoganize or have not bothered to look.

If you take the word of 'bal-mitra' of RT who lives in the bungalow next to 'Matoshri' and have family relations with them, the word is UT/RT will fight it together. They do not want to loose seat to someone whom they cannot control - i.e. INC/NCP. E.g. Thane was won from SS by INC/NCP candidate. In the time is the late Anand Dighe that was next to unthinkable.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Jul 2013 21:49

MH was, is and will remain stronghold of INC/NCP. MH-BJP is slowly beginning to work out things at snail's pace. but it would take 5-6 years to fix things up for them. SS is in decline. MNS is bunch of short-sighted goons who are mostly good for nothing. BJP-SS winning in 1995 was a fluke owing to Pawar's split. Else it has always been a solid INC state.

western MH was always stronghold of INC. after Sharad Pawar split, it remained with UPA. The cooperative banks and sugar factories provides a stable political structure to their polity. The municipal corporation which is lost belongs to RR Patil's area. It only means that NCP is loosing hold on sugar-cooperatives and INC is replacing them.

I had talked about what BJP should do - concentrate on winning gram panchayats, trade-unions and student union elections. On this level, most of the villages are with INC. Loss of western MH would mean a death-knell for INC. They will not let it happen.

Look at opposition in MH - Gadkari, Munde, Uddhav, Raj. None of them leader of masses. Sharad Pawar at least has a tremendous cadre following among rural farmers of western MH. They screwed up Mumbai too and are gradually loosing it. I mean, how the eff could Shivsena lose in Dadar? But they did. Thane will go too, most probably. Being from one of the richer states have made the opposition complacent and lazy. The new state BJP chief is good man. lets see if he can turn tides by 2019. If Mumbai and Thane goes away from NDA, Shivsena is screwed. Hence UT is trying to expand in Vidarbha at the expense of RSS. Rss is strong in vidarbha. I have been advocating separation of Vidarbha and creation of much smaller states, since beginning.

BJP cannot pull a GJ or MP in MH. Because they are not aspiring so. They were eager to get in power without doing the right thing. Thanks to Pramod Mahajan. if Vidarbha separates, it will definitely be a GJ. No room for INC down to gram panchayat levels. the funds from western MH keep vidarbha confused.

but given the state of affairs, apart from some parts of Karnataka and vidarbha (and may be telangana) the Krishna-Godavari basin is off limits for BJP.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 09 Jul 2013 21:53

What is the prognosis for 2014?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Jul 2013 22:00

fanne wrote:What is the prognosis for 2014?

Difficult, fanne ji. SS and MNS are not ready to play together. in urban MH they will win more seats this time than last time, ok. It really depends upon candidate selection. most of the fury is directed against NCP leaders. media has cleverly kept ajit pawar's dam-pissing comments afloat. INC leaders in MH are phantoms. no presence in public narrative which mostly bad. NCP faces all the bad publicity.

RSS withered away from western MH post 1948. it holds presence in other regions of MH, yes but not in this key region. They need to grow again and flourish organically. This won't happen by 2014 GE. My estimate is not more than 15-18 seats. at the most 20 (I would consider that as a windfall)

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 09 Jul 2013 22:08

isn;t it surprising that pune of all places in MH is a congi stronghold?

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 09 Jul 2013 22:33

isn;t it surprising that pune of all places in MH is a congi stronghold?

IMHO, Pune is more likely to go the NCP way given Kalmadi's present situation. There is no BJP/SS leader strong enough to win the election IMHO....

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 09 Jul 2013 23:22

saumitra, pune is considered the bastion of all things maratha. that this heartland is not a bastion of hindutva is surprising/instructive.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 09 Jul 2013 23:53

MH is in terms of GDP, per capita GDP etc. is a rich state. Given that it has poor agricultural land (omitting parts of Vidharhba) and few natural resources, one would question why this is so. Outsiders would answer; Mumbai. But that is only part of the answer. Calcutta provided West Bengal the same assets as Mumbai did to MH.
One answer is that starting with Y.B. Chavan, many Congress (and then NCP) politicians nurtured and pampered their constituencies during their political lifetimes. It is acknowledged that most Congress and NCP politicians including (and especially) Pawar are corrupt. However, take a look at Baramati, Sharad Pawar's constituency today. Before Pawar it was a dirty, poverty-stricken town. Today it is a thriving agricultural and educational center.
By Indian standards, MH Congress has provided a relatively good standard of adminstration. BJP has to overcome this to conquer MH. Hinduvata alone may not do that.

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 10 Jul 2013 00:03

^The term Maratha can be deceptive for outsiders. In earlier times, the term Maratha included all Marathi speaking folks. Now ‘Maratha’ generally refers to the so called Kshatriyas (using 'so called' because some academics say that former agriculturalists were promoted to Kshatriya jati around Shivaji's times). Brahmins and other marathi-speaking jatis are not part of the Maratha categorization any more.

Largely speaking, the Pune Brahmins lean more toward the Hindutva thinking while the Marathas vote more for NCP/INC, largely on caste basis. The Maratha caste-based pride is so high and politicized that some of their leaders even worked to remove Shiv Shahir Purandare (a Brahmin), a noted and probably the most prominent Shivaji expert, from the Chairmanship of the committee tasked to conceptualize/implement the Shivaji statue project off the Mumbai coast in Arabian Sea a few years ago because he was, well, a Brahmin. The Maratha leaders even removed the satue of Shivaji’s Brahmin Guru from a Pune Municipal Corporation Building because, well, he was Brahmin! (Search for Maratha Seva Sangh to understand their thought process). Obviously, not all Marathas think on these lines.

Pune has had a strong Hindutva strain because of Peshvas, who were (largely devout, intellectual, and nationalist) Brahmins and who attracted a greater percentage of Brahmins, especially those from Konkan (Chitpavans), into administration. Nowadays, people from traditional INC/NCP strongholds of Satara/Sangli/Kolhapur migrate to Pune in large numbers, bringing with them their voting preferences from their hometowns, which as mentioned by Atri is for NCP/INC.

It may appear from my post that Marathas are less Hindutva-wadis than the Pune Brahmins in general. I would say that that's true in my humble view. But I must add that Marathas and other jatis in Maharashtra are more Hindutva-wadis than Kshatriyas and other jatis in other states, say UP and Bihar.

The pragmatic solution for BJP to do well is to identify a Maratha leader with a strong Hindutva strain, kinda like a Maratha Modi. This is the only way to merge the Maratha and Hindutva identities to win in Maharashtra. RSS may not believe in casteism, but mango men do.

The above is IMVHO and apologies in advance if anyone is offended (that’s not my intention in any case). Just reporting what I think the ground position is. Ultimately, we are all children of Bharat Varsha (May not be able to respond to questions or comments.)

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 10 Jul 2013 04:20

shaardula wrote:saumitra, pune is considered the bastion of all things maratha. that this heartland is not a bastion of hindutva is surprising/instructive.

usually, the bait is supposed to be more subtle. the fish have to eagerly lick their lips and start swimming towards it.

not take one look and decide to not waste energy on useless adventures.

member_24042 · Post by **member_24042** » 10 Jul 2013 04:57

I think Modiji should ditch BJP as it is seen as nothing but a front for Brahminical forces such as the RSS. For this reason since he is a Shudra, he can galvanize the masses, and he should capitalize on it. BJP is too much Hindutva where Hindu fanatics will basically want to impose 'varnashrama dharma' if they ever come to power. For this reason BJP always loses elections.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 10 Jul 2013 05:18

TonySoprano wrote:I think Modiji should ditch BJP as it is seen as nothing but a front for Brahminical forces such as the RSS. For this reason since he is a Shudra, he can galvanize the masses, and he should capitalize on it. BJP is too much Hindutva where Hindu fanatics will basically want to impose 'varnashrama dharma' if they ever come to power. For this reason BJP always loses elections.

well, looks like I'm the fish today. but the fish knows that it is a fish.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 10 Jul 2013 05:42

^^^ Good one, devesh ji. Folks get good at detecting flame-baits as they mature in forum time...

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 10 Jul 2013 05:53

Jagannath Yatra kicks off in Ahmedabad today, Modi to be the first CM to perform 'Pahind Vidhi' for the 12th time

On the eve of the yatra, Modi visited the more than 400-year old temple in Jamalpur area of the city to take stock of security and other arrangements and also to pay obeisance to the deity.

The rather heartwarming picture that accompanied the story...

Joi Jagannath!

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 10 Jul 2013 06:41

I actually typed out a response to that bait, and then thought better of it and canceled. One does develop some kind of spidey sense, especially after the way that Chinese feller halaled Rajesh saar in the other thread.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jul 2013 06:46

How Modi undoes the political math

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 10 Jul 2013 06:47

yoy mean rajesha sir? which thread?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jul 2013 06:48

Managing Chinese Threat

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jul 2013 06:49

here

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1469977

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 10 Jul 2013 07:21

TonySoprano wrote:I think Modiji should ditch BJP as it is seen as nothing but a front for Brahminical forces such as the RSS. For this reason since he is a Shudra, he can galvanize the masses, and he should capitalize on it. BJP is too much Hindutva where Hindu fanatics will basically want to impose 'varnashrama dharma' if they ever come to power. For this reason BJP always loses elections.

Are you sure you were not on drugs when you wrote that. In-fact Its only RSS that I see can remove castism. I still don't believe I red this on BR.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 10 Jul 2013 07:43

Looks like one fish did take the bait. Brace yourself to be reeled in now.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jul 2013 07:55

sudarshan wrote:Looks like one fish did take the bait. Brace yourself to be reeled in now.

Well the fisherman got halaaled by a watchful Bredator, before the fish took the bite. (see Buddhism thread). So no worries.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 10 Jul 2013 07:57

TonySoprano wrote:I think Modiji should ditch BJP as it is seen as nothing but a front for Brahminical forces such as the RSS. For this reason since he is a Shudra, he can galvanize the masses, and he should capitalize on it. BJP is too much Hindutva where Hindu fanatics will basically want to impose 'varnashrama dharma' if they ever come to power. For this reason BJP always loses elections.

Nice try, but kaam na aaye...

This fish is swimming to Nukkad...

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 10 Jul 2013 08:07

thanks saraff. i was using maratha as a general id. i didn't know the distinction.
I agree with your observation, not just pune but MH there is a lot of latent hindu pride, especially bcoz MH contributes so much to what is defined as hindu culture.
Your observation about the distinction between the shades of hindutva and correlation to caste is also important. imo caste is important because it directly affects local realities. so just mere halbali about hindutva is not sufficient. caste issue aside, i think one of the important aspects of modi has been his focus on common sense rather than theories. for example, in education he was focused on enrollment and completion rather than fooling around with irrelevant stuff. this is exactly opposite of what bjp govt did in ka.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jul 2013 09:36

Faking News:

Indian Mujahideen defuses bombs planted at Digvijay Singh’s house

Digvijay Singh threatens to raise an army of 11000 bullshitters

Digvijay Singh diagnosed with a disease called Digvijay Singh

Digvijay Singh loses bet to Abhijit Mukherjee for making senseless statement

Digvijay Singh has got silicone brain implants

Digvijay Singh becomes first man to have ISO certified integrity

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Jul 2013 09:43

and in serious contest with Shinde for the post of cheif joker of UPA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jul 2013 09:45

HMji is a lot better - atleast he keeps his maun vrat on most issues.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 10 Jul 2013 09:53

abhishek_sharma wrote:Faking News:

Indian Mujahideen defuses bombs planted at Digvijay Singh’s house

Digvijay Singh threatens to raise an army of 11000 bullshitters

Digvijay Singh diagnosed with a disease called Digvijay Singh

Digvijay Singh loses bet to Abhijit Mukherjee for making senseless statement

Digvijay Singh has got silicone brain implants

Digvijay Singh becomes first man to have ISO certified integrity

We can make jokes and show how deranged and inconsistent views are promoted by Digvijay Singh, but he is a person who is close to the highest seat of power in India. So his statements carry a credibility (at least in the eyes of certain sections of the society (read certain Ulemas), in terms of taking the signals to be passed on to the faithfuls on Fridays).

So a vast majority of people who never read mediacrooks or twitter get their news and information from the above mentioned channels. In those circles, the word from the "pulpit" (I know it is a misnomer, but could not find a better word) has street cred.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Jul 2013 10:37

Ulemas are first in propagating conspiracy theories like 9/11 was done by CIA etc. They like Diggi Raja statements and it supports all their ideas that no Muslim is involved in terror attacks and all convicted as innocent etc. Jihadi ideas are regularly propagated by Diggi to create vote bank.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Jul 2013 13:42

from Being Cynical blog

Though the standard of Congress party and all its constituents don’t look much brighter than the collective IQ of Pakistan

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Jul 2013 14:34

No sir, all the dramas are for getting Muslim votes. The feel Indian Muslims and Pakiland fellows are on the same level. unfortunately for our Muslim brothers they do feel that INC is their party and vote for them time and again. More bazare ideas like beheading Bush will be done by SP fellows. Now Nitish will also join diggi raja, Mulayam, Lalu and other sickular people, big season afoot for secular imagination.

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 10 Jul 2013 15:25

sudarshan wrote:Looks like one fish did take the bait. Brace yourself to be reeled in now.

Yes sir.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 10 Jul 2013 16:25

shaardula wrote:thanks saraff. i was using maratha as a general id. i didn't know the distinction.
I agree with your observation, not just pune but MH there is a lot of latent hindu pride, especially bcoz MH contributes so much to what is defined as hindu culture.
Your observation about the distinction between the shades of hindutva and correlation to caste is also important. imo caste is important because it directly affects local realities. so just mere halbali about hindutva is not sufficient. caste issue aside, i think one of the important aspects of modi has been his focus on common sense rather than theories. for example, in education he was focused on enrollment and completion rather than fooling around with irrelevant stuff. this is exactly opposite of what bjp govt did in ka.

It is dissipated in four streams on ground - RSS, SS, MNS, NCP.. Even INC (the ground cadre) is staunchly Hindutva types, when compared to some other parts. This is seen in the riots (malegaon, dhule etc).

INC cannot afford to let go MH from their hands. The conventional wisdom of British legacy tells them to avoid emergence of shivaji like movements which spread too fast and are quite unscrupulous in means while dealing with enemies. When 1857 was being conspired, British completed Mumbai-Pune rail road on war-footing ensuring deployment of Bombay army in Pune within a day or two (which would take weeks, without rail). There is a reason why most of IA military garrisons (which they inherited frm BIA) are located in cities like Pune, Gwalior, Mathura, Lahore, Indore etc. Apart from logistical reasons, these centers were Maratha-Sikh centers of resistance.

As Ranjbe ji has said, Y B Chavan provided a really good administration and good growth model for Maratha farmers. They form bulk of population in MH. The cooperative sugar industry movement was immensely successful. The revnues of Mumbai helped here. While INC never really wanted Mumbai in MH nor did they fight for bringing Mumbai in MH. But they have ruled MH ever since.

Things are nicely arbitrated at village level in favor of INC system. Hence I have repeatedly asked people to be patient and not compromise on ideals nor to take a short cut to success like Pramod Mahajan did.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 10 Jul 2013 18:28

What scares Sonia

Govt to probe FERA violation charges against Sonia - PM

PATNA, SEPT 12: Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee today said the allegation of violations of FERA against Congress president Sonia Gandhi would be examined after the completion of the poll process.

``If we are voted to power, the charges against the Congress president would be studied after the elections,'' he said, in reply to questions from newsmen here rounding off his two-day visit to Bihar.

BJP general secretary Narendra Modi had on Thursday last alleged that Sonia Gandhi had violated the Foreign Exchange Regulation Act (FERA) by becoming a director of Maruti Tractors and Maruti Technical Services while not yet becoming an Indian citizen.

http://expressindia.indianexpress.com/i ... 13028.html

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 Jul 2013 19:42

It doesn't scare her. She has survived much worse. If she was truly scared she would've fled the country.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 10 Jul 2013 21:59

RoyG wrote:It doesn't scare her. She has survived much worse. If she was truly scared she would've fled the country.

100% correct. The only way to checkmate her is to destroy congress electorally