Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

prahaar
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby prahaar » 02 Jan 2014 19:12

saravana wrote:
kapilrdave wrote: He says many of RSS swayamsevaks also voted for farji.

This is a very chastening post. If RSS folks can vote for Kejriwal then the rot has really set in. Then one can't really count on them to rally under Modi then. Then who exactly the core supporter for Modi?
Maybe this country deserves further screwups before it wakes up then so be it. Better to focus on 2019. If the core group deserts and joins a commie naxal like Kejriwal and his group then there is not much that can be done.
EDIT: Arun Mennon, saw your post before posting mine. Let my dhoti shiver stand anyway :)


This thread is not about RSS, but your post makes me clear up some facts. Firstly, RSS swayamsevaks are not BJP members. Secondly, RSS swayamsevaks do not get a party whip or SMS or email from Bhagwatji, about whom to vote. RSS swayamsevaks are just like aam junta.

I guess the point Kapilji was making is that many people who are concerned about corruption, Congress alliance, etc. voted AAP since BJP state unit did not have necessary historical record of fighting Congress. But after seeing AK make alliance at a drop of a hat, many may become more circumspect.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby abhik » 02 Jan 2014 19:14

Modi should go for the kill, make the congress dynasty free or break it up using its satraps. Karnataka is currently headed by an "outsider", constantly in conflict with "insiders". Haryana's Hooda is organizing rallies without any sign of the family. I'm sure he has stashed up a lot of dirt on Vadra, may be the family itself, to use as leverage. This will be as close to a Loha-Garam-Hai moment as one can expect. All that is needed is a good swing of the Hatoda.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Atri » 02 Jan 2014 19:24

prahaar wrote:
Singha wrote:have to agree that its the end of Congis in urban india - mass scale desertions will be the norm.
at rural level some strong state level leaders might be able to stick around but like sharad pawar might see fit to start their own outfit for a better grip on power.


Maan. SharadchandraRaoji Pawar Saheb already deserted the Congi ship almost 15 years back (when SG entered the arena).

On a note related to MH, is the NaMo-Pu.Bhide-Bhonsle rally still on? NaMo official calendar does not mention this particular appointment, on 5th it shows a rally in Delhi.


It is on.. Bhide has ordered his followers NOT to carry ANY OTHER flag except Bhagwa. No party flags allowed. NaMo will arrive by Heli on fort directly and then fly to Delhi thereafter.

New developments hint at MNS-NCP alliance (at least pre-poll understanding). Maananiya Pawar Saheb is a visionary man, when it comes to self-preservation. He is like that Merovingian fellow from Matrix movies.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 02 Jan 2014 19:28

Muraliravi ji,

I would tend to agree with your methodology. But my view was that 20 seats in khatra in cities is not acceptable. I never accepted BJP+SD+Senas at more than 200. But then I admit I had only you guys to rely on and most of you have not given anything more.

How many are you giving to BJP+SD+Senas from your excel sheet. That in my view is the base from which negotiation starts.

AAP can be tackled that is not in doubt. But how much and how fast. I do not see AAP making any dent in rural to semi-urban areas or even in 1 seat cities.

Faridabad+Gurgaon are going the AAP way. Gautam Buddha Nagar may escape if the BJP focuses here with a clear intent. One strange thing I have noticed is that AAP like the tulip bubble loses supporters as fast as it gains them. Just some basic questioning is enough to shake the voters. In fact my pisskological analsys is that the admantine behavior displayed by the online supporters is only because of their deep insecurity. They know all their people are purchase-able and not one makes sense when it comes to running numbers.

My insecurity is on account of my assessment that they have a clear ability to fool almost everybody at least once.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Comer » 02 Jan 2014 19:29

prahaar wrote:
This thread is not about RSS, but your post makes me clear up some facts. Firstly, RSS swayamsevaks are not BJP members. Secondly, RSS swayamsevaks do not get a party whip or SMS or email from Bhagwatji, about whom to vote. RSS swayamsevaks are just like aam junta.

I guess the point Kapilji was making is that many people who are concerned about corruption, Congress alliance, etc. voted AAP since BJP state unit did not have necessary historical record of fighting Congress. But after seeing AK make alliance at a drop of a hat, many may become more circumspect.

Thanks for clearing that up and I understand that RSS and its members are quite independent of politics. But I have an hard time imagining why would an RSS guy skip BJP and vote for somebody like Kejriwal. Admittedly my experience comes from friends who are/were RSS members who are hardcore supporters of BJP. So I understand that RSS is like any other group, it takes all sorts.
My point is then apart from BJP members, are there any core group that can be counted on to vote for Modi/BJP in the coming elections.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby chetak » 02 Jan 2014 19:33

Dhananjay wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:Just now seen seen a bollywood Muslim hero, I don't know his name but he acted in chanikya tv serial as senapathi Bhadrashal, praising khajri. Left and jihadists forces plan to weaken modi wave by all this rubbish.


Irfan minus 'Khan'. He has just removed 'Khan' from his name. Very very pure lefty. I remember seeing many of his skits on doordarshan during mid 80s where he used to play 'Lenin' glorifying bolshevik revolution.

A friend had met him once over drinks due to some connection and said he didn't talk anything other than marxism agendas. He has just removed 'khan' from his name and openly says he's not a muslim but an atheist.


Seen some of his comments on godhra/gujratn on TV. Very very malsi onlee. atheist is the usual cover for such agenda driven folks

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 02 Jan 2014 19:38

i would be baffled if all these bjp/congress strong hold analysis is literally thrown away by aap contenders who have no expertise whatsoever. i am trying to help you all think towards the third entity in formation which is quintessence of survivng democracies of the world. the farther we think away from corruption setup, the farther we move away from democracy... after the threshold boundaries, then it would be all app ka quandry.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby hanumadu » 02 Jan 2014 20:27

chetak wrote:
Seen some of his comments on godhra/gujratn on TV. Very very malsi onlee. atheist is the usual cover for such agenda driven folks


+100. They join a communist party with the express intent of dissing Hinduism.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 02 Jan 2014 20:45

Those who believe that AAP wont cut BJP votes.

  • Consider AAP's decision to give free water to middle class and "get lost" to those who live in slums and no water connection, and will suffer 10% raise in tanker charges !!
  • Consider AAP's decision to give 50% cheap electricity to lower middle class , while slum dwellers who live in private sub-meters who will also suffer 10% raise in electricity bill.

So all slum voters will vote for Congress. Across India, now Congress will be able to convince slum dwellers that "AAP will give free stuff to middle class and none for slum dwellers". So Congress's slum, muslim, most dalit votes remain intact. The lower middle class voters which see BJP as Bania\Bhramin party too remain with Congress. The new middle class which was going to vote for BJP will now vote for AAP

First, for any slum dwellers who takes water from tanker in cold/hot weather, free 20000 liters a month water to someone living in small flat is a serious heart burn. To that, charges of commercial water users went up by 10%, so now tankers will cost 10% more !!! So slum dwellers will be back to Congress and will vote for Congress with greater vengeance. Now there is NO 24 hr water in Gujarat. So on this, NaMo cant claim any show to attract slum dwellers. The RSS-workers wasted all time in morning shakha and never worked to enact an administrative setup that will eradicate slums. So sorry, slum dwellers dont see them any better than Congress, who least gives them freebies.

Now why would electricity charges increase for slum dwellers? Well, most slum dwellers get electricity from slum lords via private sub-meters . The slum lord has meter and he gives electricity to locals. Want proof? The population of Deli is 2.2 crore and it has only 32 lakhhousehold meters, i.e. 7 family members per meter. Now many flats have 0 members because flat is closed and there are lakhs of closed flats. And many flats have 1-4 family members. So are there connections with 10-15 family members? NO. What happens is that in many illegal slums, the slum lord has one connection and he gives private sub-meters to 100s. Now slumlord's electricity bill went up by 10%, and so he will charge slum dwellers 20% extra !!! So again, they will all vote back to Congress.

===

Meera Sanyal, Balakrishnan, Lal Bahadur Shashtri's grandson etc are joing AAP because MNC-owners are promising them Rs 50 crore to Rs 100 crore worth paid media publicity to any respectable person who joins AAP and contests for Loksabha. Soon AAP will get 543 Lokasabha MP candidate whose educational , professional and careerbackground will be far far better than typical average BJP Loksabha candidate. And all these people are from private sector so they have never taken bribes. And despite all this "BJP is non-corrupt, only Congress is corrupt" propaganda I see on Bharat Rakshak. the fact is that BJP leaders when get as much power as Congress leaders, do become at least 50% as corrupt as Congress leaders, barring hardly 5-10 exceptions. So all middle class voters will vote for them. And in Loksabha-2014, AAP will NOT give ticket to Dharmesh Koli like slum workers, and so no slum dweller will give vote to AAP.

So via AK, MNC-owners have created a major dent in BJP's middle class voters.

Solution for NaMo? Soon, NaMo will be forced to give tickets to Meera Sanyal , Narayan Murti, Balakrishnan like people. So leftover of Nationalism and Hinduvaad will evaporate. These people would rather do business with Saudi Arabia and demolish makeshift RJB Devalaya and re-build mosque. And these people will never touch KJB Devalaya and KV Devalaya issue. And they will do NOTHING but invite MNC-owners and Missionaries by throwing 10 inch think red carpets.

Solution for Nationalists? I will write tomorrow in my SMS thread

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 02 Jan 2014 20:50

rm sahib, i think you would make good to setup discussions on "policy centric governance model". this will drive the future, better than any party based democracy. slowly consolidated policies as basic tenets of people as din-din life ingrained in every activity and thought process. that is the only way to change.

fundamental policies... abstracted and specialized, and further detailed to specific areas of concern.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby JohnTitor » 02 Jan 2014 20:56


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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby krishnan » 02 Jan 2014 21:01

yes

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 02 Jan 2014 21:27

RM ji, this is a near-benis mere political hacks wala thread.

What makes you think only Congress will be able to speak to the slum dweller. Is it the fact that RSS walas remain in shakhas that forms the basis for your judgement? You think the contours of the elections have not been studied by now by relevant people.

Image

Also the 50% headstart you give to BJP compared to Congress looks a lot lot lot on the higher side. If BJP walas can give 20% reduction in corruption during my lifetime alongwith a bunch of other things, I will drench all my friends in Vijaya Malaya ki daru.

But seriously you seem to be putting the cart before the horse. If I remember correct and correct information, than Gita has been around for about 7500 years last, yet we have......... well whatever have we. I have actually seen netas, businessmen and commoners, who do their jobs with intent and clarity of purpose but yet have not held legislation either in support or as an excuse. Off course time takes a toll on all and some who exert beyond their abilities end up with ulcers. Ulcers that they then need to control by taking short cuts too which is when the corruption bug bites them too. The short of it being does legislation and legislative compliance, ensure corruption free life or is it the other way round?

BTW hope you are not trying to sell a new Religion of Anti-corruption and its innocence certifications. I concede, I lose if that is the case.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Singha » 02 Jan 2014 22:01

btw the Yeddyurappa KJP officially merged with BJP today and Yeddy has made it known far and wide he will work for Namo as PM.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ShyamSP » 02 Jan 2014 22:44

Singha wrote:btw the Yeddyurappa KJP officially merged with BJP today and Yeddy has made it known far and wide he will work for Namo as PM.


Namo Namoha! Subha Sakunam.

D4 and Fat guy achieved nothing for kicking Yeddyurappa out and instead they lost Karnataka to Congress.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Muppalla » 02 Jan 2014 23:28

ramana wrote:Muppalla, You are right on the dot!!!



Hind Times:

Can Modi win BJP new allies?

The BJP's ability to win over new allies highlighting its prime minister candidate Narendra Modi will taste its first success when a few parties in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh join the National Democratic Alliance (NDA).

The first expansion of the NDA after Nitish Kumar-led JD(U)’s exit in July is expected mid-January, which marks the festivities of Pongal and Sankranti in the two southern states.

Vaiko-led MDMK and S Ramadoss-led PMK in Tamil Nadu and the Telugu Desam Party (TDP) in Andhra Pradesh are set to join the NDA.


The BJP also hopes it will successfully woo Tamil actor-turned politician Vijayakanth, who leads the DMDK and is assiduously being wooed by the Congress and the DMK too.

To try its luck in coastal areas, the saffron party finally decided to stay hitched to the TDP led by Chandrababu Naidu than with Jagan Mohan Reddy-led YSR Congress in Andhra Pradesh. Naidu was with the NDA till 2004.

Senior BJP leader Venkaiah Naidu, who is keen for a tie-up with the TDP, is counting on some Union ministers from Seemandhra region to contest under the BJP banner.


In Tamil Nadu, the PMK and the MDMK will formalise their decision to support Modi this week. Vaiko and Ramadoss concluded parleys with central BJP leaders a few days ago.

Vaiko confirmed that he had held talks with BJP leaders, saying his MDMK's main objectives were to remove the Congress-led government at the centre and also prevent formation of any other Congress-supported government.

According to Vaiko, support for the BJP was gaining and a "Modi wave" was visible across the country.

In fact, both Vaiko and Ramadoss had welcomed the BJP’s announcement of Modi as the PM candidate. While Vaiko has pockets of influence in southern Tamil Nadu, Ramadoss' party influence is over the Vanniyar community in northern part of the state.

Besides the MDMK and the PMK, the BJP hopes it could stitch a rainbow alliance by including regional outfits like Kongunadu Munnetra Kazhagam and Thevar Paervai.

The BJP's decision to leading a front of smaller parties came after Modi addressed a huge rally in Tiruchi in September. Its leaders decided against aligning with the DMK due to its image as a corrupt party. Jayalalithaa-led AIADMK made it clear that it was not keen for any alliance with a national party.

The saffron party eyes Kanyakumari, Coimbatore, Tiruchi, Tirupur and the Nilgiris Lok Sabha constituencies it had won in the 1998 and 1999 Lok Sabha polls.

Already, BJP cadres are on village-to-village campaign called "Veeduthorum Modi, Ullamthorum Thamarai (Modi in every household and lotus in every heart)".


It seeks to highlight Modi’s achievements and corruption under the UPA.


Wow who would have thunk even a few months ago that BJP would have candidates in non Karnataka states and hope to win.


The entire social media can salivate for or against AAP but BJP and especially Modi is quietly working on the ground. They are working on seat by seat to maximize themselves. Once election process starts a lot of citadel from congress and UPA suddenly may be BJP and NDA instead of INC and UPA.

The BJP is not ignoring the Congress-B (a.k.a AAP) effect but it is on a different plane.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ramana » 02 Jan 2014 23:41

kapildave, Did your guest give the real reasons for the RSS types voting for AAP? Was it because they thought AAP was best option to get Congress out of Delhi as BJP in delhi appeared not viable with its infighting and crony candidates?

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 02 Jan 2014 23:52

Took sometime to find it but here it is. Next few months some would find this handy.

http://karnatakajudiciary.kar.nic.in/scrolls/wp-44071-11.pdf

Dr. KBJ & KGRJ

07.03.2012

JUDGMENT

IN

WRIT PETITION NO.44071/2011 (GM-KLA)

Further, there is no material produced by the Lokayukta to establish that
the petitioner has done any favour to any of the alleged companies
during the period 2007 to 2010. Even during the course of
arguments a specific question was put to the learned counsel for
the Lokayukta to produce any material to connect the petitioner for
the alleged offences, but he was mum.
Suspicion cannot be a
ground to tarnish the image and reputation of a person who is
holding a constitutional post. Courts shall decide on the materials
produced by the police or party; whereas the commission has to
collect materials by inquisitorial method by investigation; if
necessary, to inquire into truth or otherwise of the facts available.
The commission of Inquiry Act is perhaps unique in the world
where the commission takes the role of investigator, prosecutor,
defender and judge of facts, with due safeguards of the rights of
the involved parties as in a juridical proceeding, though it is not.

29. Lokayukta being a quasi-judicial authority, his decisions
should be reasoned.
The writ of certiorari will lie to set aside the
decisions made in violation of the principles of natural justice.
When important rights of parties of far-reaching consequence are
adjudicated in a summary fashion, without giving a personal
hearing where proposals and counter proposals are required to be
examined, otherwise it would be directly destructive of judicial
propriety and fair-play. The catena of decisions cited by the
learned counsel of the petitioner on the point of violation of
principles of natural justice supports the case of the petitioner. The
contention of Respondent/Lokayukta that he has not given any
direction for the petitioner to vacate his office and therefore
question of giving him an opportunity of hearing the petitioner did
not arise, holds no water,

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Shanmukh » 02 Jan 2014 23:57

ramana wrote:kapildave, Did your guest give the real reasons for the RSS types voting for AAP? Was it because they thought AAP was best option to get Congress out of Delhi as BJP in delhi appeared not viable with its infighting and crony candidates?


The kids of BJP leaders (Ashok Goel and Ajay Malhotra) lost by humongous margins in BJP strongholds like Model Town and Greater Kailash respectively. So, I don't wonder that there may have been sabotage internally.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 03 Jan 2014 00:06

nageshks wrote:
ramana wrote:kapildave, Did your guest give the real reasons for the RSS types voting for AAP? Was it because they thought AAP was best option to get Congress out of Delhi as BJP in delhi appeared not viable with its infighting and crony candidates?


The kids of BJP leaders (Ashok Goel and Ajay Malhotra) lost by humongous margins in BJP strongholds like Model Town and Greater Kailash respectively. So, I don't wonder that there may have been sabotage internally.


Sahab Singh Verma's son won though didnt he. It is important to note that second generation politicans are accepted if they themselves have a solid track record based on their own performance.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Shanmukh » 03 Jan 2014 00:38

Sanku wrote:Sahab Singh Verma's son won though didnt he. It is important to note that second generation politicans are accepted if they themselves have a solid track record based on their own performance.


Parvesh Verma had established himself after a decade of toiling away in the backrooms, and he was well known and well liked in his constituency. Parvesh Verma was given a ticket because he was Parvesh Verma, not Sahib Singh Verma's son.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 03 Jan 2014 02:17

Chilling....US does not want Modi as the PM. Read it all you suckers who think democracy is where people vote on issues and the best wins. Entering lungi shivering and knee jerking mode onlee.

http://www.indiafacts.co.in/stopping-mo ... wjHbA.dpbs

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 03 Jan 2014 02:19

nageshks wrote:
Sanku wrote:Sahab Singh Verma's son won though didnt he. It is important to note that second generation politicans are accepted if they themselves have a solid track record based on their own performance.


Parvesh Verma had established himself after a decade of toiling away in the backrooms, and he was well known and well liked in his constituency. Parvesh Verma was given a ticket because he was Parvesh Verma, not Sahib Singh Verma's son.


Umm, I suppose we are in agreement on this topic then ?

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 03 Jan 2014 02:20

VikramS wrote:The biggest mistake BJP did was to allow AAP to form a government. His credibility is now gone up 1000x, his base is motivated and it allows the media to tom-tom him 24x7.

Do we know who made that decision? Was it Modi or someone else from BJP that allowed AAP to "sweep" though and get the "mandate" from people to rule?

As of now, it clearly looks like a blunder from BJP's perspective.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2014 02:22

there are more mutus than we thought exists with kala angrez gov.. anyways, here is another article to read

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/aap-k ... 19103.html
This weakening of the caste impulse is happening at the top end too. Or why would a Marwari/Bania name like Kejriwal resonate so much in Delhi? Or why would a V Balakrishnan (ex-Infosys CFO) decide to join the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP)? The renewed rise of the BJP in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar is also the result of a weakening of caste leanings. Not all Yadavs will vote for Mulayam Singh or Lalu Prasad, and not all Kurmis think Nitish Kumar needs to be supported merely because he is one of us. In fact, I am willing to bet that the BJP can make a big impact south of the Vindhyas (in terms of votes, not seats) if it seeks to build the party on its own rather than in alliance with the usual caste-based suspects.

In the caste and religion-defined politics of Tamil Nadu and Kerala, the BJP would be as refreshing a change today as the AAP is/was in Delhi. In fact, the BJP’s rise in Karnataka was also the result of this same upsurge, but the party messed up big during BS Yeddyurappa’s reign in the wrong belief that it was all about getting the Lingayat vote and somehow staying in power.

Tamil Nadu is ready to break out of the iron-clasp of the Dravidian parties, and Kerala out of the bipolarity of the UDF-LDF, Tweedledum-Tweedledee options – just as Delhi showed last month. Caste politics may be on its last legs in Tamil Nadu, and religious politics in Kerala, but no one has been bold enough to test the hypothesis. The Congress missed a golden opportunity, and maybe the BJP will miss it too. AAP does not exist in Tamil Nadu as yet. Maybe it will catalyse change.

Why is the middle class emerging from chrysalis now, and why did everyone miss its significance till Delhi proved otherwise?

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby nachiket » 03 Jan 2014 02:23

SwamyG wrote:
VikramS wrote:The biggest mistake BJP did was to allow AAP to form a government. His credibility is now gone up 1000x, his base is motivated and it allows the media to tom-tom him 24x7.

Do we know who made that decision? Was it Modi or someone else from BJP that allowed AAP to "sweep" though and get the "mandate" from people to rule?

As of now, it clearly looks like a blunder from BJP's perspective.

Did they have a choice? A BJP govt. couldn't have survived the trust vote. The nature of the result was such that the Congress became the kingmaker.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 03 Jan 2014 03:14

Nachiket: If BJP did not survive the trust vote, what would be the next step in the process? Call for elections? Is the alternative that bad is the question. It is never wise to nurture an opposition - how much ever small. I do not think AAP will win 272 seats in LS 2014, it is tough hearing din raath how AAP is the greatest party in this World.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby disha » 03 Jan 2014 03:28

If BJP had not survived the trust vote., AAP+CongIs would have formed the government.

It was given that BJP will *not* survive trust vote.

Only way BJP could have survived trust vote, would be to run the government as a minority government. That means there will be no legislative changes., only execution powers. This would enable AAP+CongIs to take the BJP to cleaners by for eg. emanding to pass their version of Jan Lokpal and if not agreed by BJP, show them as "truants". That is BJP will be running an a toothless aged tiger. All its executive decisions will be up for criticisms.

Given that challenge, it is better for Congress(AAP) to be made to sit in power. The pressure should be now on CongI(AAP) to go after corruption cases. And within 2-3 months, euphoria will die, reality will set in and CongI(AAP) will get a boot.

Either way, PaidMedia is going to make Kejriwal (Loose Motions*) as a superhero.

*Kejriwal tried to show himself as "naive" by giving too much details about his stomach upset. Even a 13 year old nowadays wisen up and say fewer words. Given that, it is perfectly fair to call him up on that and okay to tag him as such. Just as Modi is tagged as Modi (Puppy).

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby LakshO » 03 Jan 2014 05:43

saravana wrote:
kapilrdave wrote: He says many of RSS swayamsevaks also voted for farji.

This is a very chastening post. If RSS folks can vote for Kejriwal then the rot has really set in. Then one can't really count on them to rally under Modi then. Then who exactly the core supporter for Modi?
Maybe this country deserves further screwups before it wakes up then so be it. Better to focus on 2019. If the core group deserts and joins a commie naxal like Kejriwal and his group then there is not much that can be done.
EDIT: Arun Mennon, saw your post before posting mine. Let my dhoti shiver stand anyway :)


Sir, No need to doubt the RSS. If true that Sanghis in Nai Dilli voted for Craziwaal, they were not aware that:
1. AAP/AK will be such a big phenomenon to hurt even BJP's chances in elections
2. AAP/AK will take the support of CongIs to form government.

Now that AAP/AK formed with CongI's support, all BJP/NaMo's supporters will be chastened not to fall for every passing snake oil salesman (even if the snake oil salesman has IIT pedigree :P )

Hari Seldon
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Hari Seldon » 03 Jan 2014 07:01

SwamyG wrote:Chilling....US does not want Modi as the PM. Read it all you suckers who think democracy is where people vote on issues and the best wins. Entering lungi shivering and knee jerking mode onlee.

http://www.indiafacts.co.in/stopping-mo ... wjHbA.dpbs


Dr Gautam Sen writes like a true blue BR jingo guru onlee... :)

Prem
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Prem » 03 Jan 2014 07:11

Hari Seldon wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Chilling....US does not want Modi as the PM. Read it all you suckers who think democracy is where people vote on issues and the best wins. Entering lungi shivering and knee jerking mode onlee.
http://www.indiafacts.co.in/stopping-mo ... wjHbA.dpbs
Dr Gautam Sen writes like a true blue BR jingo guru onlee... :)


First term of Modi will be facing serious challenge from many anti India power centres at home and abroad. I think he was invited to China precisely sensing this trouble some scenario. Either way , interesting time ahead. Most important initiative he can take is to clean the house by removing Gungadins from scene. India is as strong as it is internally. Its becoming Arr Paar Phaar,Maar, Dhaar,Jhaarr and Pacchar larai. Jo Arre Woh Charre paradigm in motion Past E2014..

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Victor » 03 Jan 2014 08:01

SwamyG wrote:Chilling....US does not want Modi as the PM. Read it all you suckers who think democracy is where people vote on issues and the best wins. Entering lungi shivering and knee jerking mode onlee.

http://www.indiafacts.co.in/stopping-mo ... wjHbA.dpbs

Big difference between Egypt-Iraq-Syria and India is the nuclear capable Indian armed forces.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby johneeG » 03 Jan 2014 08:37

Hari Seldon wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Chilling....US does not want Modi as the PM. Read it all you suckers who think democracy is where people vote on issues and the best wins. Entering lungi shivering and knee jerking mode onlee.

http://www.indiafacts.co.in/stopping-mo ... wjHbA.dpbs


Dr Gautam Sen writes like a true blue BR jingo guru onlee... :)


Love his writings! Truly BResque! :D

----
Any new political entity has some advantages and disadvantages.
Adv:
a) It has a clean history. So, it can go bonkers on the opponents claiming that 'sab chor hain'.
b) It can claim that heaven can be created on the earth, only if the parties and politicians had done their job properly.

Both the above points are not necessarily wrong. And many people believe in the above points in almost all societies regardless of the system.

Dis-Adv:
a) They don't have many funds or sponsors. So, they are not able to compete with established players.
b) They are unable to get their message across to the audience.
c) They don't have any dedicated cadre or vote-bank.
d) They are novices who can be tricked by their opponents.
e) They are not seen as viable option.

These dis-advantages do not allow new political entities to immediately play any major role. They have to work for a long time on the ground to neutralize the above dis-advantages.

But, when a new entity is helped or supported by old established entity(for some nefarious reason), then the whole scenario changes. The old entity can make sure that the new entity gets funds, vote-banks/cadre, good advisers, and media coverage. With these tools, the new entity can grab lots of public attention and project itself as a new and clean alternative. People will always like to give atleast one opportunity to such new entities just to check out what they are made of. It is hope and curiosity. Clean history and huge promises definitely play a very attractive role. But despite all that, the new entity may not be seen as a viable alternative.

Now, Fordriwal is this kind of new entity. He is getting sponsored by old entities. So, he has advantages of being a new comer while also having advantages of being an old player. His only drawback is that he is not seen as viable entity in many areas. To counter that a sort of blind optimism is sought to be built.

Coming to dilli decision:
lotus had a tough task. I don't think there was any easy decision here. If lotus had formed the Govt with jod-thod, Fordri would have used it to go to town to pain the lotus as a party of crooked and dishonest people hungry for power. In one swoop, he'd have done equal equal between lotus and kongis(who have been in power for 15 yrs). If there were no immediate parliamentary elections, then no doubt lotus would have done just that without caring what Fordri did or said. But, there are elections in immediate aftermath, not just in dilli but entire country. So, they decided to give up smaller thing for the bigger thing. They decided to take moral highroute.

This meant that the ball was in Fordri's court. Fordri could have easily gone for another elections. I think most people were expecting Fordri to go for another elections. But, it seems Fordri backed out of that option due to pressure from Mlas who won win with small margins. It means that Fordri was not confident of winning the same number of seats again. So, instead, he went for the option of forming the Govt. But, he had already put himself in a tight corner by announcing that he would not take or give support to lotus or kongis. So, he had to do some drama. But, the biggest thing is that he eventually took the help of kongis. This is an albatross around his neck.

Now, lotus will keep saying that kongis and Fordri are same team with different tags to fool people. What can Fordri do now to counter this? Well, he can dump the kongis or force the kongis to dump him and go back to voters. But, before doing that he will try to earn some publicity by announcing all these schemes and doing some action. Its like ek dhin ka CM. Its just for a few days, so he can give maximum performance. Then, he can go to voters after dumping(or being dumped) by the kongis. This also helps him in parliamentary elections. His main brief seems to be to hurt the TsuNaMo. Being CM is just an incidental benefit, but his main job seems to be to take away the urbane support who were inclining towards NaMo.

So, the gameplan of Fordri is pretty simple and clear. What can lotus do? Well, it can expose the anti-national character of this new entity. Its funding, its ideology, its support to secessionist movements, its support to illegal foreign immigration, its support to terrorism ...etc. Lotus can also highlight the fact that Fordri does not talk about blackmoney.

Someone made a post that all this is not important in elections and that people only look at day-to-day issues. This is not really true. People do respond to various issues when they are properly communicated. People do vote based on ideology, patriotism, social issues, ...etc. I don't mean to say that day-to-day issues are not important. But if it is conveyed that a particular entity actually supports terrorists or gets foreign funds or wants to break bhaarath, I think most people will not support such entities regardless of the promises made by them. Infact, the rich mercenary elites may not give much importance to such topics and may be ready to compromise. But the lower and middle classes give a lot of importance to these issues. Even now, there is a reason why even Fordri's guys chant Vandhe Maathram. Because it has emotive appeal. This should not be under-estimated. So, if lotus can convey these issues effectively to people, people will respond positively. The recent 4-0 drubbing of kongis is the best example in this regard particularly in Raj. NaMo conveyed very effectively the perfidy of the Family starting from the chacha himself. Thats why even the erstwhile kongi votebanks deserted them.

Another issue is the development model of Fordri/Kongi and NaMo:
At an individual level, what does development mean?
It means money and power. Thats all, right? NaMo is promising development(Vikaas) in such a way that everyone in Bhaarath can develop and at the same time Bhaarath will become powerful and rich. This is supposed to be Guj model. There will be 24X7 bijli(electricity), good sadak(roads and other connectivity like internet) and proper supply of paani(water). For all this to be accomplished, people will have to be provided with employment. And NaMo is promising that. He missed no opportunity to convey that many people are flocking to Guj from other states for employment. So, infrastructure is provided and employment is provided. Thats Guj model.

What is the Fordri/Kongi model?
Subsidy and reservation. Fordri has promised subsidies. Kongis have promised reservation for jats. At individual level, it should not matter to a person whether he is getting money or power due to development or subsidy... due to merit or reservation. Kongis and Fordri are saying to people, "have fun at other expense. Take subsidy or reservation and have fun. If in the process, others are screwed, so be it(infact, so much more fun!)." They don't have any idea of providing people with employment. Their model is just to give freebies. Where will the money for this come from? Most likely from taxes, either directly or indirectly. And tariff on Alcohol will be seen as most attractive way of funding these freebies. In this model, infrastructure build up is not given a big attention. Knowing the kongis, even if they announce any infrastructure build up, it is just to line their pockets with corruption money during these projects. What this model does is that it bankrupts the country, creates unemployment, creates social tensions(due to partial treatment where one is pitted against the other), and leads to country going to dogs.

So, at individual level, both of them are offering power and money. But the difference is that NaMo's idea implicitly has a patriotic undercurrent. NaMo is saying,"sabka vikaas due to suraaj" i.e. everyone's development due to good governance. He is not pitting one group(class/caste/region) against the other. And he promising development, not subsidy or reservation. He is not against subsidy or reservation per say. So far, he has shown that he is not against subsidy or reservation as long as they are used in a targeted manner to help certain needy sections of society to bring them immediate relief. But, he views it as a crutch which has to be discarded at some stage. On the other hand, kongi/Fordri model is limited to providing only this crutch. There is no other idea. Even if one assumes that the kongi/Fordri are not corrupt, they are bankrupt in terms of ideas. Their model appeals to lowest inclinations of people. They want people to be selfish and screw everybody else to satisfy their own needs. NaMo is saying people can satisfy their needs while contributing positively for the country(i.e. suraaj) and society(i.e. sabka vikaas). NaMo's idea is win-win for country and people. Fordri/Kongi's idea is lose-win. In Fordri/Kongi scheme, people cannot win if country wins and country cannot win if people win.

People, in recent elections, have rejected this kind of Kongi politics. They want to live in a good country and good society where everyone can develop. People may be selfish inclinations. But people also have higher inclinations. People will be willing to work hard and even sacrifice for the country or society if they see that such sacrifice helps the country or society. People look towards the leadership for guidance. The problem with weak, inefficient, corrupt or anti-national leadership is that it fails to inspire people. When people see that rulers themselves are not interested in doing anything, everyone tries to get by in whatever way they can(even if it involves corrupt activities). On the other hand, if they have an inspiring leadership, people will do everything to better the country, society and their own lives. Thats the essential difference between kongis and NaMo.

Fordri is also inspiring people. He is inspiring non-political people to join up politics. Its good. It would have been better if he was not a foreign funded agent or if he had better model than mere subsidies or reservations. I am not against subsidy or reservation. But, they are just like first-aid. They are not permanent solutions. Moreover, Fordri seems to be doing whatever he is doing with an eye on parliamentary elections. Giving water in winter is easy. The real test will be in summer.

BTW, when Fordri's party guy wants Kashmir to secede, does he not know that if Kashmir secedes the dilli's people will have very hard time due to water shortage? Kashmir is the source of rivers in most of North Bhaarath. If that place is not in Bhaarath's control, then it can get very difficult for people.

When I first saw Fordri(in Anna's company), I also supported him. So, I can understand many people jumping on to his bandwagon right now. At that time, when I read theories about him in BR, I thought that they were extreme CTs. But now, I agree with them. I guess it takes some time for the things to sink in. So, I think people will take some time to realize. Honestly, it would have been very good if Fordri was not a foreign agent. Maybe, he still can take a u-turn and change that(which is not such a difficult thing because he seems to specialize in ditching his old partners once his job is done).

Who will lose more due to Fordri: Kongi or NaMo?
I think NaMo will not lose much. Some voters may get swayed but most will remain loyal. Fordri may dent a few, but I think largely he will be just a paper tiger. In places where kongis have an organization but are facing a rout, they can transfer their votes to Fordri.

The only places where Fordri can make any impact(like dilli) is if the local lotus(or any anti-kongi party) is seen as equally inept as kongis. Even then, it may be difficult for Fordri to be seen as viable option. So, Fordri can hope for a max of 30 seats in a most optimistic scenario. As Muraliravi saar's chart seems to show. Even in such a optimistic scenario, NaMo will not be dented much. Honestly, I think outside dilli(and perhaps, areas sorrounding dilli), Fordri will not have any impact. Even Blore and Mumbai may not welcome him much.

But what is coming out of all this is that the kongis are done and dusted in dhesh. NaMo is already successful in his mission of kongi mukth bhaarath.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby a_bharat » 03 Jan 2014 09:45

johneeG-ji, excellent write-up.

johneeG wrote:Who will lose more due to Fordri: Kongi or NaMo?
I think NaMo will not lose much. Some voters may get swayed but most will remain loyal. Fordri may dent a few, but I think largely he will be just a paper tiger. In places where kongis have an organization but are facing a rout, they can transfer their votes to Fordri.

The only places where Fordri can make any impact(like dilli) is if the local lotus(or any anti-kongi party) is seen as equally inept as kongis. Even then, it may be difficult for Fordri to be seen as viable option. So, Fordri can hope for a max of 30 seats in a most optimistic scenario. As Muraliravi saar's chart seems to show. Even in such a optimistic scenario, NaMo will not be dented much. Honestly, I think outside dilli(and perhaps, areas sorrounding dilli), Fordri will not have any impact. Even Blore and Mumbai may not welcome him much.

We have to see how this plays out. Not many have expected AAP's performance in Delhi elections. Now the MSM is hyping AAP a lot more and is trying to project AAP as a viable alternative.

Either BJP should be able to totally discredit AAP, or it should find a way to use AAP to dent Cong votes more than BJP's and anti-congress votes. AAP may not win many seats for itself, but may be able to influence the result in a significant number of constituencies.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2014 09:52

It looks like Delhites who want non Congress and non BJP voted for AAP. So if AAP was not there either they would have sat at home or held their noses and voted for Congress.

So in a way its clear what Delhi fortells. Some urban folks would vote only for non BJP. And no point in getting distracted to get their vote for they wont vote for BJP anyhow.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Abhijit » 03 Jan 2014 09:57

IMO, BJP should not try to discredit or bad-mouth AAP. The reason why NaMo is also not getting entangled into AAP is that NaMo has given the clarion call of a congress-mukta Bharat - not BJP-yukta Bharat. All the CT's apart, AAP is not congress. What BJP should say, especially in Delhi, is as follows:
"We are all aiming to serve the country and its people. We know for sure that congress is absolutely unable/unwilling to do so and has only looted the country and gravely damaged its institutions. If AAP manages to better the lives of Delhi-ites and also destroy the corruption then BJP will be a happy and willing partner in any endeavor that helps the people and makes the country strong. But we will be keenly watching over AAP's performance. If AAP continues the politics of entitlements and populism devoid of constructive development then we will oppose it just like we oppose congress' culture of the same. it is up to AAP to prove that they are an anti-thesis of congress.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby krishnan » 03 Jan 2014 10:17

Abhijit wrote:IMO, BJP should not try to discredit or bad-mouth AAP. The reason why NaMo is also not getting entangled into AAP is that NaMo has given the clarion call of a congress-mukta Bharat - not BJP-yukta Bharat. All the CT's apart, AAP is not congress. What BJP should say, especially in Delhi, is as follows:
"We are all aiming to serve the country and its people. We know for sure that congress is absolutely unable/unwilling to do so and has only looted the country and gravely damaged its institutions. If AAP manages to better the lives of Delhi-ites and also destroy the corruption then BJP will be a happy and willing partner in any endeavor that helps the people and makes the country strong. But we will be keenly watching over AAP's performance. If AAP continues the politics of entitlements and populism devoid of constructive development then we will oppose it just like we oppose congress' culture of the same. it is up to AAP to prove that they are an anti-thesis of congress.


you sure abt the bold part

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby hanumadu » 03 Jan 2014 10:22

^^Congress supporters on this forum have now taken to supporting AAP just like whats happening out side the forum.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Victor » 03 Jan 2014 10:26

Abhijit wrote:IMO, BJP should not try to discredit or bad-mouth AAP...

This IMO is a mistake. The biggest claim AAP makes is that it is "clean" and everyone else is corrupt. While BJP should say the things you mention, it should also forcefully refer to this at every opportunity to prove that AAP is not a "clean" party and cannot be the corruption police. If AAP can behave like this even before they have come to power, what can we expect after they have been in power for a few years? BJP should also hold their feet to the fire on their corruption loud talk and demand action against Vadra et al. No holds barred.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby devesh » 03 Jan 2014 11:25

SwamyG wrote:Chilling....US does not want Modi as the PM. Read it all you suckers who think democracy is where people vote on issues and the best wins. Entering lungi shivering and knee jerking mode onlee.

http://www.indiafacts.co.in/stopping-mo ... wjHbA.dpbs



I get the feeling that 2014-15 is not just about Modi. in all likelihood, we will get a glimpse of the direction in which BJP is headed.

elimination of Lal-Bal-Pal and consolidation of MKG's coterie in INC was the signal of INC's direction in the last century.

BJP is already at the fork in the road.

tipping point is here.

Atri ji, what is your view on this?


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