Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

SwamyG
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 19 Feb 2014 03:14

nageshks wrote:Saar - outside of NaMo and a few self made leaders, most of the BJP is compromised, powerless, or useless. Rajnath is also a D4 that did not make it into the D4. He is now riding the Modi bandwagon for his own benefit. He is just as useless, probably compromised too. Recall his consorting with the Mulayam government in 2005-2007, leading to loss of BJP credibility as an opposition to the SP? Rajnath has been single handedly responsible for finishing off the BJP in UP, and decimating the BJP in Jharkhand (Rajnath engineered the sidelining of the very capable politician and administrator, Babulal Marandi if he returns to the BJP, I have hopes he will be the next NaMo) to favour his protege, Arjun Munda. The idea that Rajnath will take on the compromised elements in BJP is utterly laughable.

So the leader is compromised. The top 4 or other important are all compromised and stooges of Congress. In essence what you are saying is BJP ========== Congress.

There was once a time, in my mind, when BJP party projected itself to be different. It was the AAP of 80/90s so to speak. Seriously why should then people vote for BJP in places where Modi's recognition is not at peak?

Why I have been always disappointed with BJP, and in fact I have called it names like Bechara Janata Party, Bekhar Janata Party etc. But it is illuminating to see how quickly people who were supporting BJP/Modi turn the other way immediately. Things are so emotional, and why do we expect Indians to vote for development and progress when all any political party has to do is play with human emotions. The AP politics does throw interesting facets of human and BRFites behavior. We get to see different colors (true colors ?).

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 03:15

>>No - not really. Many wanted to ensure an equitable split.

was referring to the folks who have been discussing the issue in the split thread, and clearly, there's a personal issue there for some folks (not meant as a slam, one can often appreciate the gravity of a situation if one is near to the issue at hand) but yes if BJP went along with the INC like a patsy thats not good either.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 03:18

>>Saar - outside of NaMo and a few self made leaders, most of the BJP is compromised, powerless, or useless.

here i disagree with you.

many leaders, and not most are compromised. i would say the ones who have been power brokers & doing the work of the dilli power brokers are the most compromised.

namo just represents the other leaders of the BJP who have been waiting for a change.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rony » 19 Feb 2014 03:26

Karan M wrote:because many people here are from united AP and they wanted the person they believe in to somehow save the day, and keep the current status quo.


Thats not a correct summary.The question is not about separation perse but how it is being bulldozed without proper engagement, or dialogue with people from other regions and without any clear idea how the distribution will take place or what compensation is on the table or the status of govt employees.

PS: The very fact that many people here are from United AP should tell you something on where the BJPs core ideological supporters lie.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Shanmukh » 19 Feb 2014 03:36

SwamyG wrote:So the leader is compromised. The top 4 or other important are all compromised and stooges of Congress. In essence what you are saying is BJP ========== Congress.


No - there is still an order of magnitude of difference between the crimes of the Congress and the crimes of the BJP. If the Congress deserves to go to the 9th level of hell, the BJP deserves to to the second level. Does that make sense?

There was once a time, in my mind, when BJP party projected itself to be different. It was the AAP of 80/90s so to speak. Seriously why should then people vote for BJP in places where Modi's recognition is not at peak?


What is the alternative? The BJP is not great, but all other options are a million times worse. None of them care about development or Indic interests. Unless you want to vote for a member of our forum who is going to contest, probably against NaMo :D

Why I have been always disappointed with BJP, and in fact I have called it names like Bechara Janata Party, Bekhar Janata Party etc. But it is illuminating to see how quickly people who were supporting BJP/Modi turn the other way immediately. Things are so emotional, and why do we expect Indians to vote for development and progress when all any political party has to do is play with human emotions. The AP politics does throw interesting facets of human and BRFites behavior. We get to see different colors (true colors ?).


Not emotional, saar. Just disappointed. The worst thing BJP did, IMO, was raising the hopes of the SeemaAndhra folks that it would defend their interests, and then do a volte face. BJP was committed to Telangana from before the Congress announcement of the state. They could have said from the day of announcement - we are going to screw the SeemaAndhra interests. That would have been a legitimate thing to do - as a party, they are entitled to their opinion, and I would respect it. But to deliberately give false hope and dash it at the last moment, i submit, is cruel emotional manipulation. To give you an instance from British history, King James II went and met the Duke of Monmouth after the rebellion of 1685, when the latter, who had been sentenced to death for his role in the revolt, was pleading for mercy. In English history, there is no other instance of a sovereign meeting a royal family (Duke Monmouth also had royal blood) clemency petitioner, and then refusing him mercy. (If a sovereign deigned to meet a royal pleading for mercy, it was a given that the man's sentence death sentence would be commuted). James II just went there to gloat over the Duke of Monmouth and then refused him mercy. It created the worst impression among the subjects, and James II earned the sobriquet of being a sadist. That is exactly the feeling I have with this behaviour of the BJP.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2014 03:37

RajeshA wrote:One thing I haven't understood is why many are disenchanted with NaMo due to the Telangana Bill.

When Food Security Bill was passed, Narendra Modi made his displeasure more than clear. He wrote to the PM with a list of questions and comments. He called it anti-federalism. Did anything happen? D4 went ahead giving their support to the Bill.

During the passage of Land Acquisition Act, again Narendra Modi gave examples of how they help raise the land price in favor of farmers when some industry wants to buy land from them. Were his ideas incorporated in it? It was considered to be against the interests of industry.

So how can people this time expect any different outcome in Parliament. LK Advani, Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley are responsible for BJP's stand in Parliament. They decide.

Now people are expecting Narendra Modi to come out strongly against his party leaders on Telangana. He has never undermined the authority of anybody in BJP before, especially if he or she is an office bearer. That is just not how he ticks. He takes full responsibility for his own portfolio. There the buck stops with him. Just like he doesn't undermine anybody else's authority in BJP, he would expect nobody else to undermine his authority when he is in office. NaMo doesn't believe in mutiny. He would let his opinion be known to his party leaders. He may in general speak out against some injustice or wrong he sees in Indian polity. But he does not go around tearing down other BJP leaders, not for principle, not for power and not for politics.

That is why NaMo always asks for full authority whenever he takes up a job, like it was in the case of CM of Gujarat. Now he is asking for full authority as PM, not Deputy PM, not Home Minister. No. He wants to be PM and wield power in the way he deems fit.

NaMo worked hard to get CBN on board NDA. He made a direct appeal to CBN in Hyderabad. He wanted an alliance with CBN and TDP.

But D4 had other plans.
NaMo would most probably not complain. He uses the pack of cards that are dealt to him and he makes the most of it.

So if one wants to hold NaMo accountable, do it for only those things which fit under his portfolio. Telangana issue was not his doing!



The mistaken expectation was after his being named as the PM candidate of BJP he could call the shots. Looks like BJP leaders in Delhi want him to be their MMS : be their face and they wield the power.


I was looking for who were there when the voice vote was recorded.

LS holds nerve passes Telangana bill

Strange headline from The Hindu. When half the parties walked out and 50 MPs were in the well how is it a holding nerve?

Uncertainty ends, BJP helps UPA push it through
Capping months of tumult in and outside Parliament, the Lok Sabha on Tuesday approved amid protests the contentious Bill for the creation of Telangana after the BJP lent its support.


The Bill, approved by voice vote in less than 90 minutes, was passed even as the Lok Sabha TV, curiously, went blank for the entire duration, evoking sharp reaction from Opposition parties.


The Bill will now go to the Rajya Sabha where the BJP plans to move amendments to address “concerns” of Seemandhra. If the Bill goes through in the Upper House, Telangana will become the 29th State of the country.


The session included a commendation speech by Home Minister Sushilkumar Shinde, a brief intervention by Leader of the Opposition Sushma Swaraj, who beseeched the people of Telangana not to forget the support from ‘chinna amma’ (younger mother — a reference to herself; Sonia Gandhi is described by Telangana leaders as an ‘elder mother’) and an appeal by Union Minister S. Jaipal Reddy, who hails from Telangana, to the people of Seemandhra not to entertain any misgivings. With the more vociferous opponents of the Bill being suspended, the task of opposing the Bill was left to some Congress members, including four Ministers, and the Communist Party of India (Marxist).


Congress leaders formed a human shield in front of the treasury benches and the Chair through the entire drama. The amendments itself took an hour to clear; mostly by voice vote and some — moved by Trinamool Congress member Saugata Roy and Asaduddin Owaisi of the All India Majlis-E-Ittehadul Muslimeen — with a head count as they insisted on a “division.” The DMK, the Trinamool Congress and the Janata Dal (United) staged a walkout.


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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2014 03:39

What is common to DMK, TMC and JD(U)?

Werent they all NDA at together at one time.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Shanmukh » 19 Feb 2014 03:46

Rony wrote:PS: The very fact that many people here are from United AP should tell you something on where the BJPs core ideological supporters lie.


it is not just United Andhra people who are disgusted. It is more the way the BJP is taking on the Congress that is nauseating. Why, oh why, does the BJP not grow a spine? I am shocked at the way in which the BJP surrendered. Is there no fight left in these people? Why will anyone trust the BJP to safeguard their interests?

I am also genuinely worried for Rayalseema now. They are going to be the worst sufferers in this mess. Coastal Andhra is inventive, has talent and to spare, and is much richer. They will manage much better.

My thoughts, for Rayalseema, are best expressed by quoting this stanza.

तादृक्षे समुपस्थिते परिभवे सभ्येषु वाचंयमे
श्वाध्यायात्सु विधेर्बलं स्वदयितेष्वन्येष्वशक्तेष्वपि
निश्चित्यार्थिमतां गतिं यदुपतिं नीव्याम् करौ कुर्वती
साचक्रन्द तदोच्चकैरिव हरे त्रायस्व हामामिति

Finally, it is a sense of lost opportunity. There was an entire state - one of the richest states - ready for the taking for BJP. All the BJP had to do was go in boldly, poach from all sides, and establish themselves as a party of significance in SeemaAndhra. The business relationships there are in a flux. BJP could have broken into a state where it will find it hard to get in otherwise. They could have helped shore up Indic interests by taking on the EJ lobby, that is so strong in coastal Andhra. Now, there is just a sense of lost opportunity, and cruel emotional manipulation left.
Last edited by Shanmukh on 19 Feb 2014 10:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rony » 19 Feb 2014 03:49

The impression that is going out is D4 = Sonia, Modi = Manmohan

Image

ramana
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2014 03:54

Rony wrote:The impression that is going out is D4 = Sonia, Modi = Manmohan

Image


Time is coming for him to shake off the D4 spell. Claiming to be obediant to senior leaders who are working for Congress interests is not helpful. See my reply to RajeshA above.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby gandharva » 19 Feb 2014 04:10

Sushma out of LK shadow
RADHIKA RAMASESHAN

New Delhi, Feb. 18: Sushma Swaraj has come out of mentor L.K. Advani’s shadow as Lok Sabha Opposition leader, if only at the fag end of this House’s term, in backing Telangana.

The BJP was agog with loud whispers of how for once, Sushma and her mentor weren’t quite on the same page on the Telangana bill.

Advani, the chairman of the BJP parliamentary party and working chairman of the NDA, insisted till the end that he was against passing the legislation in a din because it was “too monumental” to go through without a discussion and amendments.

Advani articulated his objections in a meeting he, Sushma, Arun Jaitley — the Opposition leader in the Rajya Sabha — held with Union ministers Sushil Kumar Shinde and Jairam Ramesh.

But BJP sources said in internal confabulations, Advani was “overruled” and reminded of the party’s commitment to Telangana.

Advani, the sources said, was told that the promise went a long way back and was enshrined in various resolutions and public speeches of party leaders, including the ones he had made in Andhra during his 1997 Swarna Jayanti Yatra.

The party could not therefore dilute, defer and recant its stand now, the sources quoted the other leaders as telling the veteran. The sources said Sushma vociferously put across this point and that was the reason Advani eventually went along with the rest.

A source said: “Please go through the recent statements made by the BJP’s four key decision-makers, Rajnath Singh, Narendra Modi, Sushma and Jaitley, and point out one instance where any of them said they will not allow the statehood bill to go through amid cacophony. None of them did.”

The source added that the quartet’s “only view was that Seemandhra should get justice and its concerns should be properly taken care of. They all felt that there was no contradiction between the creation of Telangana and justice for Seemandhra. Let Telangana come into being under the UPA. Let Seemandhra get justice under a BJP government.”

The BJP’s feedback was that Advani was “unduly influenced” by the party’s Seemandhra representatives, who in the ultimate analysis “do not count for much” because the BJP has not had much clout in the region, according to the sources.

Sushma reaffirmed the BJP’s pledge in her speech today in the Lok Sabha. She made it a point to declare that her views were shared by senior colleagues Advani and Rajnath, the party president.

Sushma went on to mention that if “Sonia Amma” was being thanked for navigating the Congress resolution on the new state, she deserved equal credit as “Chinamma (mother junior)” for carrying the BJP along.

Sources said the directive from the RSS was clear: the Sangh favoured the creation of small states and, therefore, Telangana must be supported without ifs and buts.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140219/j ... wPomPjoFUE

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby hanumadu » 19 Feb 2014 04:13

Being the party president, its Rajnath's responsibility to make everybody toe the party line.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2014 04:46

LKA has redeemed himself. So this is how she decides to assert her independence!

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby fanne » 19 Feb 2014 05:03

We do not know yet what the truth is.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 05:14

Rony wrote:
Karan M wrote:because many people here are from united AP and they wanted the person they believe in to somehow save the day, and keep the current status quo.


Thats not a correct summary.The question is not about separation perse but how it is being bulldozed without proper engagement, or dialogue with people from other regions and without any clear idea how the distribution will take place or what compensation is on the table or the status of govt employees.

PS: The very fact that many people here are from United AP should tell you something on where the BJPs core ideological supporters lie.


Even if Modi was not around, many of the folks here would have been unhappy about the division itself. The telangana thread shows how deep the emotions are, around the issue itself. There seems to be little to no consensus about whether the division itself is warranted. Even if the division bill was tabled properly and all legalities followed, and the BJP were to support it, given the rancour the issue has generated, am reasonably sure folks would have been unhappy.

Basically, the issue itself is a mess and the way its been pushed for has exacerbated matters. So for a party like the BJP its darned if you do (united AP folks will be angry) and darned if you dont (hypocrisy in terms of opposing their own stand on smaller states, earlier support etc)

As regards the BJPs core idealogical supporters, well TBH, there presence on this forum does not reflect the status quo on the ground. BJP is practically a non entity as things stand in AP. Which in turn would feed into the message that goes out to the BJP itself.

All in all, its a mess.

And having SS grinning like a cheshire cat sitting with INC leaders doesnt help any.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SwamyG » 19 Feb 2014 05:20

I have doubts believing that people on the street know D4. All the takleef must be from SM and elite crowd.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 05:20

nageshks wrote:
Rony wrote:PS: The very fact that many people here are from United AP should tell you something on where the BJPs core ideological supporters lie.


it is not just United Andhra people who are disgusted. It is more the way the BJP is taking on the Congress that is nauseating. Why, oh why, does the BJP not grow a spine? I am shocked at the way in which the BJP surrendered. Is there no fight left in these people? Why will anyone trust the BJP to safeguard their interests?

I am also genuinely worried for Rayalseema now. They are going to be the worst sufferers in this mess. Coastal Andhra is inventive, has talent and to spare, and is much richer. They will manage much better.

My thoughts, for Rayalseema, are best expressed by quoting this stanza.

तादृक्षे समुपस्थिते परिभवे सभ्येषु वाचंयमे
श्वाध्यायात्सु विधेर्बलं स्वदयितेश्वन्येश्वशक्तेश्वपि
निश्चित्यार्तिमतां गतिं यदुपतिं नीव्याम् करौ कुर्वती
साचक्रन्द तदोच्चकैरिव हरे त्रायस्व हामामिति

Finally, it is a sense of lost opportunity. There was an entire state - one of the richest states - ready for the taking for BJP. All the BJP had to do was go in boldly, poach from all sides, and establish themselves as a party of significance in SeemaAndhra. The business relationships there are in a flux. BJP could have broken into a state where it will find it hard to get in otherwise. They could have helped shore up Indic interests by taking on the EJ lobby, that is so strong in coastal Andhra. Now, there is just a sense of lost opportunity, and cruel emotional manipulation left.


Well TBH, most folks would struggle to even determine what the Telengana issue is all about, and hence are not going to be as emotive as you and those who have researched the issue in detail are over this matter. Most folks have no idea about what the entire issue was about and its unlikely to affect BJPs electoral prospects elsewhere.

If the Telegraph article is right, then it was a considered decision by the BJP, in line with past stands, and right or wrong, it was their decision which they made without "surrendering to the Congress".

I say right or wrong, and not right, because it may well be a blunder - losing votes in Seemandhra and for zero gains in Telengana, never mind the ethical aspect of how the whole bill was tabled etc.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 05:22

SwamyG wrote:I have doubts believing that people on the street know D4. All the takleef must be from SM and elite crowd.


True..90% of janta would not have even heard of D4. In that vein, SS is as much a "face" of the party as is RNS and NM (though NM is by far the biggest leader right now).

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ShyamSP » 19 Feb 2014 05:34

fanne wrote:We do not know yet what the truth is.


But truth will be:

BJP or Congress doesn't get numbers so third front forms.

Mulayam is PM and some chela is speaker. lights off. video cut, bill passed. Welcome to Mulaymistan. Kashmir is in Pakistan.

Amma is PM and some chela is speaker. light off, video cut, bill passed. Indian gold can't be found in Treasury vaults. Next day Amma show up with 10kg gold on her body.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rony » 19 Feb 2014 05:34

Karan M wrote:Even if Modi was not around, many of the folks here would have been unhappy about the division itself.


Unhappy maybe. But the intensity of anger and the sense of betrayal which we are seeing now would not have been there.

So for a party like the BJP its darned if you do (united AP folks will be angry) and darned if you dont (hypocrisy in terms of opposing their own stand on smaller states, earlier support etc)


No.BJP could have opposed this bill and could have said that they would divide the state after the elections with better consultation among all parties.That way they would have made TRS guessing in Telangana and TDP would have aligned with it in Seemandhra. Now even in terms of alliance they are neither ghar ha na ghat ka. They won't get credit in Telangana and will share the blame in Seemandhra. Division under modi watch will not produce the reactions we are seeing now from Seemandhra.

As regards the BJPs core idealogical supporters, well TBH, there presence on this forum does not reflect the status quo on the ground. BJP is practically a non entity as things stand in AP. Which in turn would feed into the message that goes out to the BJP itself.


A good strategy is to invest in future not harp on the past. Seemandhra was ripe for a BJP penetration.They could have poached at least some of the congress leaders not to speak building up their own support.Unfortunately now BJP squandered it.
Last edited by Rony on 19 Feb 2014 05:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rony » 19 Feb 2014 05:42

BJP had showed itself as a Joke. This is the headline in Deccan Herald

BJP falls into Congress Telangana Bill trap

Walking into a political trap laid by the Congress, the BJP on Tuesday gave up its demands and supported the UPA government to pass the Andhra Pradesh Reorganisation Bill amidst chaos and without pressing for a single amendment, owing to suspicion that any resistance would invite charges of scuttling the creation of the Telangana state.

The BJP had claimed till Monday evening that it was all for the creation of Telangana, but with certain riders: It won’t help pass the bill amid din, and wanted the concerns of the Seemandhra region addressed by giving them an adequate financial package. It also sought Constitutional amendment for empowering the governor to handle law and order of Hyderabad.

During their last-minute confabulations with the two government emissaries—Union ministers Sushilkumar Shinde and Jairam Ramesh—BJP top brass L K Advani, Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley and Venkaiah Naidu had sought these commitments.

But the party’s stand was different inside Lok Sabha, when the motion for discussion on and passing of the AP Reorganisation bill was moved by Home Minister Shinde.

After the T-Bill was passed, Lok Sabha Leader of the Opposition Sushma Swaraj told reporters: “We are satisfied. We have fulfilled our promise of Telangana, as the biggest thing for a party is its credibility.”

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Shanmukh » 19 Feb 2014 05:44

Rony wrote:A good strategy is to invest in future not harp on the past. Seemandhra was ripe for a BJP penetration.Unfortunately now BJP squandered it.


+1. BJP never misses a chance to miss their chances in SeemaAndhra. They had everything going for them in 1983, and they got screwed by NTR wave. Then, they had a chance in 1989, when the NTR wave was receding, and they went and aligned with him, and lost their chances. Then, they were growing in 1998, and Vajpayee made sure that the BJP would not grow. Now they had probably the best chance (compared to NaMo, even CBN's star does not shine that brightly). They could have established themselves in SA. and they have screwed up again.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby apoorv » 19 Feb 2014 06:13

BJP may not win many seats this time but this will benefit the party in long run:

Telangana: IF TRS merges with Congress, BJP will have space to grow in Telangana as opposition party as it was the only other party which favored division. If TRS does not merge with congress, it will join NDA eventually as Congress and TRS will be biggest parties in Telangana and they cannot work together. Problem will be if TRS goes with third front. I am sure MIM will lead to BJP's rise in this part.

Seemandhra: YSRC and TDP are biggest players now. BJP can take the bigger one of them in NDA post election in the name of doing good for Seemandhra. None of these two can join UPA, if one joins third front, the other one has to join NDA. BJP was anyways going to win zero seats in this part.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Arjun » 19 Feb 2014 06:32

X-posting from AAP Thread:

Guys, Sridhar is just following to the T the AAP socialist agenda of pushing "crony capitalism" as the main talking point instead of lack of development. While AAP has every right to try and push their vacuous ideology and warped sense of priorities on to an unsuspecting nation - it is the responsibility of all thinking folks to push back, recognize the real core issues and separate the wheat from the chaff. Lets please stick to the real burning issue - which is lack of jobs for millions of unemployed youth in the country, the pathetic state of infrastructure and the lack of domestic opportunities that forces millions of talented Indians emigrate and seek their fortunes in other lands.

There are no lack of issues bothering the country - but possibly the biggest benefit that Modi brings to the table is in prioritizing and clearly directing all his attention on the top FEW that the country really needs to focus on. All his speeches so far - which have been unerringly centered on development - point to his superior understanding of the core challenges in front of the country. That is his primary USP. He needs to continue with the same focus.

It is upto AAP to respond as to why the effect of their policies will be any different from the very predictable outcome - as the experience of Venezuela shows. No way can our generation consign the dreams of millions of young Indians to dust. NaMo can certainly talk to the Gas Pricing policy - but not at the cost of turning the focus away from what he and the rest of us thinking folk regard as far more central to India's future.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_28108 » 19 Feb 2014 06:45

Actually I don't think the Telangana issue is emotive for people outside Andhrapradesh. Frankly I think that we should not have any state more than 10 MLA's worth - will stop local agenda's hijacking overall national interest the way regional parties today are doing it now. If you look at it only people from AP are crying hoarse about it .Could it be done in a better way = of course but this division was inevitable.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 07:30

Rony wrote:Unhappy maybe. But the intensity of anger and the sense of betrayal which we are seeing now would not have been there.


Apart from the forum and some venting on SM, I dont see much anger anyplace else. Most folks havent even followed the T issue or even understood whats going on.

No.BJP could have opposed this bill and could have said that they would divide the state after the elections with better consultation among all parties.That way they would have made TRS guessing in Telangana and TDP would have aligned with it in Seemandhra. Now even in terms of alliance they are neither ghar ha na ghat ka. They won't get credit in Telangana and will share the blame in Seemandhra. Division under modi watch will not produce the reactions we are seeing now from Seemandhra.


Thats just postponing the issue to after elections and also, if they say we wont support division, they would have been accused of being hypocritical and going against their own prior stand.

A good strategy is to invest in future not harp on the past. Seemandhra was ripe for a BJP penetration.They could have poached at least some of the congress leaders not to speak building up their own support.Unfortunately now BJP squandered it.


Invest in the future is pretty much 4 years away at which point all this issue might have died down.. i dont see much movement in Seemandhra this time around for the BJP..

Simply put, AP has never been a real good playing ground for the BJP and it seems to have consistently voted for regional parties/INC.. doubtful that only on the basis of T issue, BJP would have made significant inroads all of a sudden.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 07:36

prasannasimha wrote:Actually I don't think the Telangana issue is emotive for people outside Andhrapradesh. Frankly I think that we should not have any state more than 10 MLA's worth - will stop local agenda's hijacking overall national interest the way regional parties today are doing it now. If you look at it only people from AP are crying hoarse about it .Could it be done in a better way = of course but this division was inevitable.


Exactly. Yesterday I overheard two gents from naarth and one helpful gent from saauth speaking about T issue as TV was looping about bill stuff non stop
Person N1: Abe, did T get passed?
Person N2: Yeah, because you know, most people want it, but rich businessmen are against it
Person S3: No, actually T people want it but AP people are against it.

S3s statement confused everyone so thoroughly (isn't T technically still part of AP hain ji?) that everyone went back to discussing Modi's recent speech in Karnataka wherein he said something which was being repeated 20x on Timesnow..

Net, I doubt anyone really understands the issue or is even too cut up about it, outside of folks directly affected. Even there, judging by the reaction of some folks from Hyderabad, they seem to have been expecting this decision for ages, and have more or less accepted it. Might be representative of more folks (or not).

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby subhamoy.das » 19 Feb 2014 07:46

BJP is committed to smaller states. That is good for the national integrity and that is also the party line. If they would have opposed T then it would be sending a message that BJP == CONGI as they are both doing vote bank politics and has no principled stand. The same message is coming out from Delhi as BJP is not trying to purchase MLAs from PAAP and form a govt for vote bank politics. I think, this is the right stand and it has NAMO's blessing. No VOTE BANK POLITICS.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby devesh » 19 Feb 2014 07:54

once the euphoria dies down, Telangana will wake up to unfinished business. and Seemandhra will realize they've not really lost anything concrete other than the sense of "telugu nationalism" which was the anchor of SA political organizing since 1947. they will have the work of replacing it with a different organizing motto and a different model of socio-political alliances under the broader rubric of Bharatiya nationalism. that isn't built on telugu regional exclusivity but a much more robust and DIRECT political share in the nation. like how the old Congress in AP, before Emergency, used to be (without the abject dynastic sycophancy that was and still is a hallmark of Congress loyalists).

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_28108 » 19 Feb 2014 08:18

My student is from Hyderabad and I was asking her about this and she said her Mom from Coastal Andhra and Father from Telangana and well her Mom gets hurt when Dad gets Ballistic about Telangana and yes they are happily married - practically I don't think anyone outside AP (Non Telugu) worries too much about it to be of consequence. There will be a lot of hoo hah and then everything will settle down. This is more of political posturing and egoes and will die down in the next few months.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 19 Feb 2014 08:20

SwamyG: One of the Rajdharmas of our Rajahs were to maintain the chaturvarnashrma - essentially it is giving all the 4 engines of society room to flourish and prosper within their limits.

Rahul Mehta: Someone MUST publicly ask NaMo if he supports Varna Vyavastha. And the question is relevant because he was a pracharak in RSS and many RSS-apex people ave made statements in favor of Varna Vyavastha. So somone must publicly ask NaMo if he supports Varna Vyavastha. If he says "NO, I oppose Varna Vysvastha", then good, more dalit votes will go to and more glory to him. And if he says "YES, I support VV" OR gives gol gol answers, then he will lose dalit votes, and so be it. But its time we finish this VV for good. And this may-2014 seems to be good oppurtunity to finish VV. (I am anti-VV)

SwamyG Maybe you could ask him :mrgreen:


I am a small common man. And I truely accept that a tall leader can never find time to crores of questions of crores of us commons. But BJP\Congress\AAP go beyond that. They believe that even if question is raised by crores of us commons, then also commons must shut up and only listen to what leaders say. The leader-common dialog in BJP\Congress\AAP is one way delivery.

"Does NaMo support Varna Vyavastha" is my question, and I first need to prove that over 5 crore or say over 20 crore voters do want answer to this question. Only after I have proof, I will ask this Q to NaMo via newspaper advt

BJP-leaders do answer a question when paid-media raises it. Thats an irony. Questions of lakhs of BJP-activists, lakhs of non-BJP-activists and crores of activists may remain unanswered but questions put by paid-media gets immediate response from BJP-leaders. A double irony is that if BJP-leaders had created a system to answer questions of activists, then this day of facing questions from AK-420 like "what is you stand on gas price" would not have come. The reason why now BJP-leaders will have to answer this question from 2 bit traitors like AK-420 and Yogendra Yadav is ONLY because BJP-leaders silenced the voices of committed BJP-activists inside BJP.

Varnaashrama just evolves over time and exists in all societies across civilizations. No society can function without order. No companies / institutions can function without order. Animal kingdom can not function without order. What is important is how the society goes creating that order and maintaining that order.


I am against VV

And no politician is going to answer that question directly.


Not really. Almost all CPM MPs I know openly and directly say that they oppose VV. They may be liars, and may be worse off in many ways, but at least their answer on VV is clear. And I am only a small time politician, but my answer is also clear that I want VV to be dead for good. And if NaMo doesnt give clear answer, then dalits etc may rightly or wrongly assume that NaMo is supporter of VV.

=======

Rahul Meta: Someone MUST publicly ask NaMo if he supports Varna Vyavastha. And the question is relevant because he was a pracharak in RSS and many RSS-apex people ave made statements in favor of Varna Vyavastha. So somone must publicly ask NaMo if he supports Varna Vyavastha. If he says "NO, I oppose Varna Vysvastha", then good, more dalit votes will go to and more glory to him. And if he says "YES, I support VV" OR gives gol gol answers, then he will lose dalit votes, and so be it. But its time we finish this VV for good. And this may-2014 seems to be good oppurtunity to finish VV. (I am anti-VV)

MaharathiArjun :mrgreen: lol do you think even if some crazy journo asks this to NaMo the answer will be plain Yes/No? look at this and see how deep this man's knowledge is on Dharma shashtra he will turn this question in to a chakravahu for the liberal viewers of that media house and they will end up praising NaMo :



If NaMo gives any answers other that firm I oppose Varna Vyavastha 100%" to "Do you support VV" question,, then he will lose dalit votes en-masse. Clever and witty answers dont fetch votes. In fact, one only loses votes by clever answers.
Last edited by Rahul Mehta on 19 Feb 2014 08:28, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rony » 19 Feb 2014 08:26

Karan M wrote:Apart from the forum and some venting on SM, I dont see much anger anyplace else. Most folks havent even followed the T issue or even understood whats going on.


Are we talking past each other ? I am talking inside AP, you are talking outside AP i beleive ?

Thats just postponing the issue to after elections and also, if they say we wont support division, they would have been accused of being hypocritical and going against their own prior stand.


No one expects the BJP to say that won't support division.They could have asked for more amendments to the bill to include seemandhra concerns or simply walked away based on how the bill itself was presented.

Invest in the future is pretty much 4 years away at which point all this issue might have died down.. i dont see much movement in Seemandhra this time around for the BJP..


No. Invest in future means starting from 2014 only.There are many MPs/MLAs from Congress out for sale and poaching in Seemandhra. Does BJP has even the vision to take that step ? That would have been possible if they would have at least appeared to be neutral for time being. If Telangana waited for decades, it could have waited for another few months.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby RajeshA » 19 Feb 2014 08:31

The biggest danger from my narrow Hindutvavadi standpoint that I see is the progressing missionary spread in Seemandhra, when YSR Jagan Reddy and YSRCP build the next govt in Seemandhara.

The second downside I see, is NaMo having to depend on a Christianist YSRCP for an NDA govt in the Center, which stops him from putting an end to money flowing from abroad for conversion activities.

The third downside I see is TRS aligning with MIM and establishing Nizam as the patron saint of Telangana, and both making Seemandhra people living in Telangana as scapegoats and a channel for letting out steam.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby niran » 19 Feb 2014 08:33

@folks lamenting the lost opportunities in SA
NaMo has already made it clearly clear no poaching
and absolutely totally no poaching from kangress,

NaMo is contesting on kongress mukt Bhatat and how on Earth will
Bharat be kongress mukt if they are poached into Bhajapa?

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby RajeshA » 19 Feb 2014 08:34

niran wrote:@folks lamenting the lost opportunities in SA
NaMo has already made it clearly clear no poaching
and absolutely totally no poaching from kangress,

NaMo is contesting on kongress mukt Bhatat and how on Earth will
Bharat be kongress mukt if they are poached into Bhajapa?


Many Congress people in Gujarat have found a home in BJP. NaMo does not have any problems with taking in local Congress leaders. What he is not interested in is adopting Congress culture in BJP.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby johneeG » 19 Feb 2014 08:39

ramana wrote:LKA has redeemed himself. So this is how she decides to assert her independence!


Even before that article was posted, I wanted to write that Advani was the only one in the entire political class who showed some class and maturity. He was right when he said that this incumbent sarkaar should just leave after vote on account. Sushma, Rajnath, Jaitley...etc were acting like a bunch of children being led by nose by the kongis or in collusion with the kongis. Modi was talking that kongis are harvesting poison in the way they handled T. But, his own party also participated in this process and sided with the kongis...! I think Modi lost that oomph factor on this issue. People may still support Modi, but this is like a reality check.

The reason I mention that I wanted to post about Advani even before that article was posted, is to convey that my opinion about Advani was not formed on the basis of that article. That article only reconfirms the impression that I got even before.

nageshks wrote:
SwamyG wrote:To me the problem with blaming everything on D4 is that, that BJP does not have the guts to throw them out, or Modi and others do not have the wherewithal to walk away and create a new party. This "D4" business is going to be around BJP's neck as a convenient way to deflect some problems of BJP.

Why cannot Rajnath kick Sushma out of BJP - citing disciplinary action or actions leading to the anti-party activities? The party needs to cut its losses, and by removing the D4, we will know what BJP is really made of.


Saar - outside of NaMo and a few self made leaders, most of the BJP is compromised, powerless, or useless. Rajnath is also a D4 that did not make it into the D4. He is now riding the Modi bandwagon for his own benefit. He is just as useless, probably compromised too. Recall his consorting with the Mulayam government in 2005-2007, leading to loss of BJP credibility as an opposition to the SP? Rajnath has been single handedly responsible for finishing off the BJP in UP, and decimating the BJP in Jharkhand (Rajnath engineered the sidelining of the very capable politician and administrator, Babulal Marandi if he returns to the BJP, I have hopes he will be the next NaMo) to favour his protege, Arjun Munda. The idea that Rajnath will take on the compromised elements in BJP is utterly laughable.


Agree with the highlighted part, saar. Infact, earlier the kongis also used to produce such self-made leaders. But, that steadily decreased due to the presence of inept dynasty on the top. The dynasty on the top is so useless that any half-worthwhile leader would eventually break the party or challenge the dynasty's control. Eg: Power or Gajan Reddy(who used his father's work). Infact, the reason the kongis brought this issue in 2009 was to cut down the threat of future rise of any regional leader(even within the kongi party) so as not to threaten the dynasty. The dilli leadership of the lotus went along with this plan because they were happy to cut down the regional leadership and neutralize the possibility of the rise of the leadership that could challenge their hold.

The major reason for the steady decline of the kongis is the lack of strong local leadership. How long can the party survive on the dynasty's pretensions of charm due to posturing? The good thing about lotus is that some good leaders are still able to rise in the party unlike the kongis.

But, at national level, there seems to be lot of 'leaders' who are not punished for their failures and are given a very long rope. This is not really a unique problem of the lotus. Infact, this is a problem that seems to be affecting all parties. For eg: the left has been completely demolished by its current leadership after 2009 and are now facing extinction. Yet, has that leadership taken any responsibility for this failure? Why is left persisting with a failed leadership? Is there no punishment for failure? Similarly, in all regional parties the leadership can never be blamed despite the electoral losses. Another reason for the mess in AP is due to the failure of TDP and its leadership. TDP persisted with CBN who had failed in 2004 & 2009. After that, he should have taken the responsibility for the failure. That didn't happen. Infact, CBN is now wanting to give the party to his son. The same is happened in lotus. The difference is that lotus was the only party rewarded Modi for his hardwork(of course, there was a lot of pressure to do that, but they somehow did). And due to that single change, lotus reaped a lot of goodwill and positivity. But, the old tired, jaded and failed leaders continue play important role in vital decisions.

At national level, the problem is more complicated because the dilli billi leadership of most of these parties is hardly capable of winning even 5 LS seats on their own. Yet, they dictate crucial policies. Power without responsibility. Kongis and their dynasty started and persist with this culture. But, lotus and left also seem to have imbibed this culture. Most of these politicians are not very popular among their own cadre or core voters. So, they resort to backroom dealings to stay relevant. Whenever, there is a non-performing leadership on the top, then the organization suffers sooner than later. The leadership is quick to claim laurels in case of any success, but tries to deflect the blame in case of failure. With such culture, there is no reward for hardworkers and a culture of sycophancy and power-brokering develops. Soon, they lose contact with the pulse of the people and so the organization suffers.

kongis survive in many places because the alternatives are seen as worse. Of late, lotus is also holding on to the similar mantra: claiming that the alternatives are worse. Of course, lotus is best in the pack and the alternatives are worse. But, people will hope and try for some better alternative.

For example, lotus did not perform on any of its core agendas while it was in power. Issues like art 370, Raam Mandhir, uniform civil code, ...etc were never pursued. But even if those big and 'controversial' issues are ignored, what did the lotus do about other issues?

a) What did lotus do to build covert capabilities in bakisthan?
b) What did lotus do to handle the underworld and its penetration into movies & kirket?
c) What reforms in judiciary, police,...etc were brought in by the lotus to better the system?
d) What did lotus do to check the illegal immigration of BDs?
e) What did lotus do to cut the phoren funding of the jihadhis, EJs & 'social activists'...etc?
f) Why didn't lotus pursue the corruption charges against many of the erstwhile politicians? Even if one ignores the corruption by dynasty, is one supposed to believe that rest of the kongis are clean and have not indulged in any corruption or black money?
...etc.

There are several such issues on which the lotus could and should have done something. There was nothing. They continued with the same system and continued the cozy setup. Yep, there are also positives for the lotus:
a) roads were built.
b) jobs were created.
c) Pokhran and handling of its fall out.
d) A stable sarkaar without any major scams.

But, there are also negatives:
a) handling of bakisthan including bus yaathra, kargil & agra summit.
b) FDI in media

In net conclusion, I think there are more positives than negatives but there are many lost opportunities. So, its better than kongis for sure, but not what the core supporters of the lotus had hoped for. I think many people had expected a proper systemic shakeup when the lotus was elected. This is again true with Modi's rise also. Many people seem to be expecting a proper systemic changes along with the regular development without corruption from Modi.

The third downside I see is TRS aligning with MIM and establishing Nizam as the patron saint of Telangana


Nizam and 'Nizami culture' getting glorified is the biggest irony of this whole issue. Eventually, separate T will have to define itself as not-Kostha/Seema if it has to keep the separate identity otherwise the separate identity will be hard to kept alive, and saar, you know what that means. There is already attempts at this type of definition. And when denying the similarities with the kostha/seema i.e. the pan-Thelugu similarities, one will have to depend on the unique features of T and invariably it is the 'cosmopolitan culture' due to the presence of muslims.

This is very similar to some sikhs trying to undermine the similarities between Sikhism & Hindhuism by insisting on the parts that are similar to Islam.

nageshks wrote:तादृक्षे समुपस्थिते परिभवे सभ्येषु वाचंयमे
श्वाध्यायात्सु विधेर्बलं स्वदयितेश्वन्येश्वशक्तेश्वपि
निश्चित्यार्तिमतां गतिं यदुपतिं नीव्याम् करौ कुर्वती
साचक्रन्द तदोच्चकैरिव हरे त्रायस्व हामामिति



Saar,
please explain the meaning of the verse. :)
Last edited by johneeG on 19 Feb 2014 09:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Rony » 19 Feb 2014 08:41

RajeshA wrote:The biggest danger from my narrow Hindutvavadi standpoint that I see is the progressing missionary spread in Seemandhra, when YSR Jagan Reddy and YSRCP build the next govt in Seemandhara.

The second downside I see, is NaMo having to depend on a Christianist YSRCP for an NDA govt in the Center, which stops him from putting an end to money flowing from abroad for conversion activities.

The third downside I see is TRS aligning with MIM and establishing Nizam as the patron saint of Telangana, and both making Seemandhra people living in Telangana as scapegoats and a channel for letting out steam.


+1

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby niran » 19 Feb 2014 08:42

There is a difference between poaching and people joining on their own accord
in poaching promises have to be made and no promises whatsoever in self joining
you wanna join? welcome, no guarantee of tikits or posts or preferential treatment.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby johneeG » 19 Feb 2014 08:48

prasannasimha wrote:Actually I don't think the Telangana issue is emotive for people outside Andhrapradesh. Frankly I think that we should not have any state more than 10 MLA's worth - will stop local agenda's hijacking overall national interest the way regional parties today are doing it now. If you look at it only people from AP are crying hoarse about it .Could it be done in a better way = of course but this division was inevitable.


Saar,
why this automatic assumption that the regional party means bad while the national party means good? Thats a false assumption. Nation is sum of its regions. Didn't Modi say that regional aspirations are good and must be nurtured. He was right when he said that.

Many a times, its the regional leadership that fights on many important topics which are not taken up by the national parties. Bhaarath is lucky that it has many parties. So, even if some of the parties(or even if all the parties) get compromised, the sheer number of parties ensures some bickering which leads to overall welfare. If there are only few major parties, then the top leadership in those parties can form a nice cozy nexus and enjoy the power regardless of which party comes to power.

After seeing the way T issue was handled by these two national parties that cannot think beyond their immediate electoral gains, in what way are the regional parties eviler? For the regional party or even caste part or community party, its fortunes are tied to that region, caste or community, so it has to do something for them. While the national party can ignore such issues and by claiming to deal with some other issue.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby johneeG » 19 Feb 2014 08:52

niran wrote:@folks lamenting the lost opportunities in SA
NaMo has already made it clearly clear no poaching
and absolutely totally no poaching from kangress,

NaMo is contesting on kongress mukt Bhatat and how on Earth will
Bharat be kongress mukt if they are poached into Bhajapa?


Actually, I thought poaching was the wrong idea. The right thing would have been to develop alternative leadership by banking on the united AP stance in coastal and seema regions, while going with Hindhuthva in T region. That would have fetched lotus a lot of votes and ensured kongi mukthi in 3 regions. Now, the votes and kongi mukthi are both in doubt in 3 regions.


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