Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Karan M
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 09:10

johneeG wrote:Saar,
why this automatic assumption that the regional party means bad while the national party means good? Thats a false assumption. Nation is sum of its regions. Didn't Modi say that regional aspirations are good and must be nurtured. He was right when he said that.


The track record of most regional parties has been pretty lousy and downright divisive in terms of votebank politics and creating endemic corruption via their wheeler dealer ways. SP, BSP, JDU, DMK etc.
Modis statement are about regional aspirations and autonomy in governance/decision making without malafide intervention by the (current) center, not about regional parties being a good thing.
India needs a strong core & a strong center, albeit a nationalist one and not one ruling by proxy and corruption/malfeasance.

There are several such issues on which the lotus could and should have done something. There was nothing. They continued with the same system and continued the cozy setup. Yep, there are also positives for the lotus:


The lotus came into power for the first time in reality (as versus a few days) and were struggling on multiple fronts (sanctions, economic issues, terrorism) and yet delivered economically. Expecting them to be miracle workers in a term is just plain whimsy, especially when they were against crazy odds. The fact that they pulled off Pokhran and yet returned India to an economic growth story, whilst managing a war and a series of terror strikes speaks for itself. Vajpayee himself was a known peacenik (JN Dixit referred to him as such) yet the BJP/NDA did not do a tenth of the damage the INC did in the past 8 years.
Last edited by Karan M on 19 Feb 2014 09:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Santosh » 19 Feb 2014 09:13

Guys, we need to hammer this page, it has lot of Face book circulation. People are gaga over Farziwal's intellect. And AAP tards are shouting everybody else out on the page..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XHZdckHv2k

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby johneeG » 19 Feb 2014 09:33

Karan M wrote:
johneeG wrote:Saar,
why this automatic assumption that the regional party means bad while the national party means good? Thats a false assumption. Nation is sum of its regions. Didn't Modi say that regional aspirations are good and must be nurtured. He was right when he said that.


The track record of most regional parties has been pretty lousy and downright divisive in terms of votebank politics and creating endemic corruption via their wheeler dealer ways. SP, BSP, JDU, DMK etc.
Modis statement are about regional aspirations and autonomy in governance/decision making without malafide intervention by the (current) center, not about regional parties being a good thing.
India needs a strong core & a strong center, albeit a nationalist one and not one ruling by proxy and corruption/malfeasance.


-No party is more divisive than kongis, THE national party.
-Strong center can come with its own disadvantage. All that the detractors can do is compromise one single entity and they control the whole system. On the other hand, if there are multiple entities, it builds a resistance to such subvertions.
-Regional parties represent regional aspirations. Unless the regional aspirations itself are bad, regional parties also have their place. Its only when they get out of hand that they become a problem. But too much or too little, both can be a problem.
-National parties cannot be trusted to put importance on several issues that are important to a particular group. So, parties that focus on single-point agenda are needed.

If one looks at amirkhan system to see where the two nationalist parties will eventually lead, I think the multi-party system is good. The national parties have to compete with all other parties and win votes. If they win votes, they automatically get the mandate. But, I don't think any party should get a free pass for claiming to be either regional or national or some other agenda(including corruption/development).

Karan M wrote:
There are several such issues on which the lotus could and should have done something. There was nothing. They continued with the same system and continued the cozy setup. Yep, there are also positives for the lotus:


The lotus came into power for the first time in reality (as versus a few days) and were struggling on multiple fronts (sanctions, economic issues, terrorism) and yet delivered economically. Expecting them to be miracle workers in a term is just plain whimsy, especially when they were against crazy odds. The fact that they pulled off Pokhran and yet returned India to an economic growth story, whilst managing a war and a series of terror strikes speaks for itself. Vajpayee himself was a known peacenik (JN Dixit referred to him as such) yet the BJP/NDA did not do a tenth of the damage the INC did in the past 8 years.


Agreed. But, the question is what was the problem in moving on some of these issues? Were the lotus guys also interested in using this corrupt system for their benefits? Were they also invested in the status quo?

For example, how many kongis got prosecuted for the corruption and black money? I am not talking of the dynasty. But the other wheelers and dealers that facilitate the dynasty. People like Yesu Reddy and others. Why did these people evade the law during lotus rule? Are they so clean that law could not catch them?

I think the problem was with the intentions of the lotus itself. I think they started to think that there was no need to shake things too much. They seem to think that they should now turn into a regular political party which essentially means aping the kongis.

The allegations against the Fordriwal and lotus are same here. Fordriwal claimed that Shiela was corrupt, but when he came to power Shiela was not nabbed by the law. Similarly, lotus claims that kongis are corrupt, but when they came to power, kongis are not punished.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby pradeepe » 19 Feb 2014 09:46

Sanku wrote: ..yes, its hard for people in Seemandhra, but they are paying for their choices, it is not meaningful to blame anyone else.


Really!

I mean yes, lets fry 'em buggers. What use are they if not for such things.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby disha » 19 Feb 2014 09:51

prasannasimha wrote:My student is from Hyderabad and I was asking her about this and she said her Mom from Coastal Andhra and Father from Telangana and well her Mom gets hurt when Dad gets Ballistic about Telangana and yes they are happily married - practically I don't think anyone outside AP (Non Telugu) worries too much about it to be of consequence. There will be a lot of hoo hah and then everything will settle down. This is more of political posturing and egoes and will die down in the next few months.


:rotfl: As I said, a husband-wife fight with a kid thrown in!

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2014 09:54

johneeG wrote:-No party is more divisive than kongis, THE national party.


Oh, I dont know. SP and DMK have given it a strong run for its money.

-Strong center can come with its own disadvantage. All that the detractors can do is compromise one single entity and they control the whole system. On the other hand, if there are multiple entities, it builds a resistance to such subvertions.


It also means chaos, discord if all these regional parties go for their own votebanks and have no common theme uniting them. DMK yelling dravidian identity, BSP saying dalits zindabad, SP yelling votebanks/minorities rule and the rest of the country can go to heck..

-Regional parties represent regional aspirations. Unless the regional aspirations itself are bad, regional parties also have their place. Its only when they get out of hand that they become a problem. But too much or too little, both can be a problem.


Problem is they also create regional divisiveness to remain relevant. A perfect example is this Telengana mess. Would it have become so bad if not for TRS?

-National parties cannot be trusted to put importance on several issues that are important to a particular group. So, parties that focus on single-point agenda are needed.


Some national parties can be positive. Eg Modi/BJP today which also dwell on national issues, pan India issues, and hence bring in unity.

If one looks at amirkhan system to see where the two nationalist parties will eventually lead, I think the multi-party system is good. The national parties have to compete with all other parties and win votes. If they win votes, they automatically get the mandate. But, I don't think any party should get a free pass for claiming to be either regional or national or some other agenda(including corruption/development).


A national party is one which has national ie pan India presence, zimble. Nothing less, nothing more. Its not about what they claim, but what they can deliver. They may be divisive even (eg commies) but being able to scale up makes them national, practically speaking.

Agreed. But, the question is what was the problem in moving on some of these issues? Were the lotus guys also interested in using this corrupt system for their benefits? Were they also invested in the status quo?


They were running a coalition govt and could not afford to move on contentious topics.

For example, how many kongis got prosecuted for the corruption and black money? I am not talking of the dynasty. But the other wheelers and dealers that facilitate the dynasty. People like Yesu Reddy and others. Why did these people evade the law during lotus rule? Are they so clean that law could not catch them?


NDA was not as strong as it could have been. Manufactured events like Tehelka and Coffin Gate were used to keep the BJP on its back foot & the constant fire fighting on multiple fronts took its toll.

Plus, the likes of Vajpayee etc were from an era where "India was Indira and Indira was India" etc. They didn't understand or appreciate the visceral hatred INC/SG had for them. Many in BJP rule were also carryovers from INC era and hence sympathetic to the other side. In all, its not easy to change a system put in place for 60 years in one term.

I think the problem was with the intentions of the lotus itself. I think they started to think that there was no need to shake things too much. They seem to think that they should now turn into a regular political party which essentially means aping the kongis.


That happened in recent past, under D4 stewardship and not under NDA.

The allegations against the Fordriwal and lotus are same here. Fordriwal claimed that Shiela was corrupt, but when he came to power Shiela was not nabbed by the law. Similarly, lotus claims that kongis are corrupt, but when they came to power, kongis are not punished.


Fordiwal is 100x more nautanki. Lotus has never engaged in similar high decibel posturing - perhaps they should have.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Shanmukh » 19 Feb 2014 10:47

johneeG wrote:
nageshks wrote:Saar - outside of NaMo and a few self made leaders, most of the BJP is compromised, powerless, or useless. Rajnath is also a D4 that did not make it into the D4. He is now riding the Modi bandwagon for his own benefit. He is just as useless, probably compromised too. Recall his consorting with the Mulayam government in 2005-2007, leading to loss of BJP credibility as an opposition to the SP? Rajnath has been single handedly responsible for finishing off the BJP in UP, and decimating the BJP in Jharkhand (Rajnath engineered the sidelining of the very capable politician and administrator, Babulal Marandi if he returns to the BJP, I have hopes he will be the next NaMo) to favour his protege, Arjun Munda. The idea that Rajnath will take on the compromised elements in BJP is utterly laughable.


Agree with the highlighted part, saar. Infact, earlier the kongis also used to produce such self-made leaders. But, that steadily decreased due to the presence of inept dynasty on the top. The dynasty on the top is so useless that any half-worthwhile leader would eventually break the party or challenge the dynasty's control. Eg: Power or Gajan Reddy(who used his father's work). Infact, the reason the kongis brought this issue in 2009 was to cut down the threat of future rise of any regional leader(even within the kongi party) so as not to threaten the dynasty. The dilli leadership of the lotus went along with this plan because they were happy to cut down the regional leadership and neutralize the possibility of the rise of the leadership that could challenge their hold.


The Congress, even today, has often more impressive leaders, particularly at the local level, than the BJP does. Take Karnataka, my state, for instance. The reason why the Congress has a very strong presence in every part of the state is not because it has a very good cadre. It is because, even today, the Congress has a large number of very capable local level leaders. BJP does not even have half as many good leaders in many places. Similar is the case with Assam. In upper Assam, the Congress is winning only the the strength of some very good local leaders.

The Centre keeps trying to cut them down to size. But that is a direct natural consequence of the quality of the central leadership. Indira Gandhi tolerated much stronger leaders than Sonia does. But when the prime minister candidate is Pappu, you cannot have great leaders under him. The underlings will eclipse Pappu, and consequently, they have to be periodically sacrificed, so that no one becomes better than Pappu.

The major reason for the steady decline of the kongis is the lack of strong local leadership. How long can the party survive on the dynasty's pretensions of charm due to posturing? The good thing about lotus is that some good leaders are still able to rise in the party unlike the kongis.


It is a top down vs bottom up approach. In BJP, usually, the good leaders from the states are elevated to the top like NaMo or SSC. When this approach is disturbed, and a bunch of broken backed leaders milk the BJP for their own profit, you get the D4 - people who have to be nourished at the expense of the cadre. Take Rajnath Singh. He cannot win a seat on his own from anywhere. Yet he is party president. Why is he being pampered and given a ticket, I ask you? Why can he not be told - fight from your seat, Ghaziabad, and win, or lose and go home? What was he made party president in the first place? What were his qualities? Similar is the case with Sushma Swaraj, or Arun Jaitley, or heck, even Venkaiah Naidu..

But, at national level, there seems to be lot of 'leaders' who are not punished for their failures and are given a very long rope. This is not really a unique problem of the lotus. Infact, this is a problem that seems to be affecting all parties. For eg: the left has been completely demolished by its current leadership after 2009 and are now facing extinction. Yet, has that leadership taken any responsibility for this failure? Why is left persisting with a failed leadership? Is there no punishment for failure? Similarly, in all regional parties the leadership can never be blamed despite the electoral losses. Another reason for the mess in AP is due to the failure of TDP and its leadership. TDP persisted with CBN who had failed in 2004 & 2009. After that, he should have taken the responsibility for the failure. That didn't happen. Infact, CBN is now wanting to give the party to his son. The same is happened in lotus. The difference is that lotus was the only party rewarded Modi for his hardwork(of course, there was a lot of pressure to do that, but they somehow did). And due to that single change, lotus reaped a lot of goodwill and positivity. But, the old tired, jaded and failed leaders continue play important role in vital decisions.

At national level, the problem is more complicated because the dilli billi leadership of most of these parties is hardly capable of winning even 5 LS seats on their own. Yet, they dictate crucial policies. Power without responsibility. Kongis and their dynasty started and persist with this culture. But, lotus and left also seem to have imbibed this culture. Most of these politicians are not very popular among their own cadre or core voters. So, they resort to backroom dealings to stay relevant. Whenever, there is a non-performing leadership on the top, then the organization suffers sooner than later. The leadership is quick to claim laurels in case of any success, but tries to deflect the blame in case of failure. With such culture, there is no reward for hardworkers and a culture of sycophancy and power-brokering develops. Soon, they lose contact with the pulse of the people and so the organization suffers.

kongis survive in many places because the alternatives are seen as worse. Of late, lotus is also holding on to the similar mantra: claiming that the alternatives are worse. Of course, lotus is best in the pack and the alternatives are worse. But, people will hope and try for some better alternative.


+1. Could not put it better. We have a very inspiring PM candidate in NaMo. Why can we not have an equally impressive party president at the national level, a Leader of Opposition? Yet, even in BJP, it does not often happen.

For example, lotus did not perform on any of its core agendas while it was in power. Issues like art 370, Raam Mandhir, uniform civil code, ...etc were never pursued. But even if those big and 'controversial' issues are ignored, what did the lotus do about other issues?


Brutally honest answer, IMO, is that BJP got greedy and impatient. If the BJP had gone on its own for another term or two, they could have built up their own party in Odisha, AP, Assam, and Bengal (the BJP was growing strongly in all four regions in 1998). But it would have taken another 5 years before they were ready to start winning enough seats from the four states on their own. But they got greedy, allied with a ton of non-ideological allies and dumped their own core agenda, and in turn, got dumped by voters.


nageshks wrote:तादृक्षे समुपस्थिते परिभवे सभ्येषु वाचंयमे
श्वाध्यायात्सु विधेर्बलं स्वदयितेष्वन्येष्वशक्तेष्वपि
निश्चित्यार्थिमतां गतिं यदुपतिं नीव्याम् करौ कुर्वती
साचक्रन्द तदोच्चकैरिव हरे त्रायस्व हामामिति

Saar,
please explain the meaning of the verse. :)


It is a quote from चम्पूभारतम् of Anantha Bhatta. It is basically Draupadi's appeal to Lord Vishnu when she was abandoned by everyone in the assembly of the Kurus, all earthly aid failed her, and she realised that only Lord Hari could help her.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby kumarn » 19 Feb 2014 11:11

In response to this:
State Wide Water Supply Grid in Gujarat

I was sent this by a good friend, a muslim (not does it matter) lady.

url=http://www.truthofgujarat.com/pm-candidate-modis-bluff-envisioned-implemented-kutch-drinking-water-pipeline/]PM Candidate's Modi's Bluff[/url]

any help to counter this would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_20317 » 19 Feb 2014 11:22

nageshks wrote:Brutally honest answer, IMO, is that BJP got greedy and impatient. If the BJP had gone on its own for another term or two, they could have built up their own party in Odisha, AP, Assam, and Bengal (the BJP was growing strongly in all four regions in 1998). But it would have taken another 5 years before they were ready to start winning enough seats from the four states on their own. But they got greedy, allied with a ton of non-ideological allies and dumped their own core agenda, and in turn, got dumped by voters.


There is another aspect to it too. The evolutionary politics aspect.

The wish to not cross in an inept manner the traditionally established jaati/dharm/varna/kshetra rekhas was important in the Sangh style of politics during that period. Today even jaati and varna are staging a come back and things are even more complex. But despite that there has been progress. Do you remember even 1 out of 5 pradesh sarkars of 92 for their good governance. Today at least Gujarat/Chattisgarh/Goa can stand straight and MP/Rajasthan do not seem to be condemned any longer. They too can be expected to join in the fun by the later half of this decade. The cooperative model of ABV was supported by the then prevailing wisdom they achieved the much needed stability for both the sangh and the country. OTOH the multi aspected cooperative-competitive model that NaMo et al bring in, is also providing results of a different kind in establishing capabilities in governance.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_28173 » 19 Feb 2014 11:42

Supratik wrote:I think the right thing for Namo to do if he becomes PM is to help develop SA. If he is able to do that in the next 5-10 yrs the negative mood in SA will dissipate. Also it seems on this forum we don't have opinion of forumers from T. So we are getting one side of the view.


He goes go on Offensive and AND SAY How GandhiNagar was built....... No Issues bringing up OLD wounds. Right words should do the trick

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby merlin » 19 Feb 2014 11:46

BJP, now, is genuinely and truly the Congress B-team. Why would one want to vote for them?

Modi has shown the extent, or lack of it, of his leadership qualities.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Chandragupta » 19 Feb 2014 12:11

merlin wrote:BJP, now, is genuinely and truly the Congress B-team. Why would one want to vote for them?

Modi has shown the extent, or lack of it, of his leadership qualities.


Yes indeed! Vote for Mahdi Khujliwal!

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sagar G » 19 Feb 2014 12:11

merlin wrote:BJP, now, is genuinely and truly the Congress B-team. Why would one want to vote for them?

Modi has shown the extent, or lack of it, of his leadership qualities.


Oh yes Modi is failure only and Kejriwal is our new hero. I think you now know whom you are going to vote, congratulation for getting enlightened.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 19 Feb 2014 12:22

To be quite frank, all this rona dhona about D4 and NaMo etc needs to stop -- the fact of the matter is as follows

1) NaMo and BJP are together, there is no remote proof of them working on cross purposes other than some random rants here and there/
2) Divison of AP is GOOD for BJP -- it continues its stated stand of T espoused in 2004, and gets a smaller state where it will have greater heft.

These two are given. The ball in now in SA court to chart their future.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 19 Feb 2014 12:24

One thing that I find interesting is how many NaMo supporters turned out to be so fickle. Interesting most NaMo followers turning around and blaming him, till date some how thought that NaMo and BJP are different as well.

Folks please get a grasp on reality. Please.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ShyamSP » 19 Feb 2014 12:26

Sanku wrote:To be quite frank, all this rona dhona about D4 and NaMo etc needs to stop -- the fact of the matter is as follows

1) NaMo and BJP are together, there is no remote proof of them working on cross purposes other than some random rants here and there/
2) Divison of AP is GOOD for BJP -- it continues its stated stand of T espoused in 2004, and gets a smaller state where it will have greater heft.

These two are given. The ball in now in SA court to chart their future.


Apparently, Narendra Modi was giving punch dialogs in Karnataka like "Can Sonia or Rahul visit Seemandra?". Some people after yesterday are asking "Can Sushma or Modi visit Seemandhra?"

Corruption dialogs on Congress in 2009 => Congress won
Punch dialogs on Congress in 2009 => Congress won

Sanku wrote:One thing that I find interesting is how many NaMo supporters turned out to be so fickle. Interesting most NaMo followers turning around and blaming him, till date some how thought that NaMo and BJP are different as well.

Folks please get a grasp on reality. Please.


Main issue is NaMo didn't stick to his words. Neither BJP in parliament. He may be good in his core areas but his dialogs can be shallow in other areas.

Apparently, Sushma got deal to release air (Gali). We'll have to see how air pressure affect Karnataka.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sagar G » 19 Feb 2014 12:36

Modi isn't even in the LS but somehow people here pipe dream of him remote controlling BJP's LS antics, strange world !!!!!!

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 19 Feb 2014 12:37

ShyamSP wrote:Apparently, Narendra Modi was giving punch dialogs in Karnataka like "Can Sonia or Rahul visit Seemandra?". Some people after yesterday are asking "Can Sushma or Modi visit Seemandhra?"

Corruption dialogs on Congress in 2009 => Congress won
Punch dialogs on Congress in 2009 => Congress won


SA was not falling over itself to host NaMo anyway; so what goes of anyones father if NaMo can or can not visit SA ? SA was congress stronghold, so it does go of Pappu's mother if he can or can not visit SA.

2009 UPA is again from SA+T, and I bet AP will still vote congress again, both in T and SA areas (as YSCR), So SA+T is at worst an invariant. However AP is not the country, and right now the country is NOT voting for congress, but moving to BJP.

It is that move that BJP is working on, not the chimera of suddenly getting 20-30 seats in AP.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby ShyamSP » 19 Feb 2014 12:38

Sagar G wrote:Modi isn't even in the LS but somehow people here pipe dream of him remote controlling BJP's LS antics, strange world !!!!!!


I'm not even in India but somehow people here pipe dream of me discussing what is happening in LS

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 19 Feb 2014 12:40

Sagar G wrote:Modi isn't even in the LS but somehow people here pipe dream of him remote controlling BJP's LS antics, strange world !!!!!!


In fact the very question that some how SS and AJ in parliament are running their own show independent of the core team with NaMo and RS and Advani et al is fantastic.

It is a fairly coordinated effort. You dont run a party size of BJP if you cant coordinate even this.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby merlin » 19 Feb 2014 12:41

Chandragupta wrote:
merlin wrote:BJP, now, is genuinely and truly the Congress B-team. Why would one want to vote for them?

Modi has shown the extent, or lack of it, of his leadership qualities.


Yes indeed! Vote for Mahdi Khujliwal!


No need to. He is the C-team. Why vote for B-team and C-team? Should vote for A-team right?

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby prahaar » 19 Feb 2014 12:45

merlin wrote:
merlin wrote:BJP, now, is genuinely and truly the Congress B-team. Why would one want to vote for them?

Modi has shown the extent, or lack of it, of his leadership qualities.




No need to. He is the C-team. Why vote for B-team and C-team? Should vote for A-team right?


If one person is a thief, another a pick-pocket, it is best to support a murderer.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby merlin » 19 Feb 2014 12:45

Sagar G wrote:
merlin wrote:BJP, now, is genuinely and truly the Congress B-team. Why would one want to vote for them?

Modi has shown the extent, or lack of it, of his leadership qualities.


Oh yes Modi is failure only and Kejriwal is our new hero. I think you now know whom you are going to vote, congratulation for getting enlightened.


Well the bar for Modi is really low if you are going to compare him to Kejriwal. Anyone with half a brain can cross over that one.

On this issue, Modi has shown a lack of leadership. The way the bill was passed in the Lok Sabha was shameful. And the BJP helped in that subterfuge. Actually helped is not the correct word, its colluded. Modi is the face of the BJP so he should take the blame. Unless he wants to shy away from it and his blind supporters want to let him.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 19 Feb 2014 12:46

merlin wrote:No need to. He is the C-team. Why vote for B-team and C-team? Should vote for A-team right?


Absolutely, SA and parts of T have been following that principle quite closely for all the years. My only request is for those who think this way to not vent on BJP and others but continue supporting Congress and enjoying their close relationship with each other.

The rest of us, who do know that the B-team stuff is total rot, having been privy to first hand political experiences of both BJP and congress and AAP -- may be excused for not believing in it.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby merlin » 19 Feb 2014 12:46

prahaar wrote:
If one person is a thief, another a pick-pocket, it is best to support a murderer.


Shiela Dikshit. Yeddi.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 19 Feb 2014 12:49

merlin wrote:The way the bill was passed in the Lok Sabha was shameful.


What exactly was wrong by BJP ? What should have been done ? Specifics please.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Comer » 19 Feb 2014 12:52

I believe AAP works on local franchise model where anyone who is good in local agitational politics is given AAP stamp and then it can reap votes. It gives AAP franchise to Medha Patkar and Udhaya Kumar. There may not be any coherency between them but individually they can get votes.
NaMo works at the national level and top down. He may not be sensitive to local issues as warranted by people. But one hopes he can achieve prosperity for India.
Congress slices and dices the country to provide succor to individual groups.
And if everything at national level fails there are so many regional parties to choose from.
So there is plenty of choices for people to suit their level of thinking.
Personally I don't think NaMo should do politics at the local level and thus far he stuck to it.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sagar G » 19 Feb 2014 12:55

merlin wrote:Well the bar for Modi is really low if you are going to compare him to Kejriwal. Anyone with half a brain can cross over that one.


Funny that you are talking about brain and stuff while assigning B/C/D/E/F team chits to everyone possible.

merlin wrote:On this issue, Modi has shown a lack of leadership. The way the bill was passed in the Lok Sabha was shameful. And the BJP helped in that subterfuge. Actually helped is not the correct word, its colluded. Modi is the face of the BJP so he should take the blame. Unless he wants to shy away from it and his blind supporters want to let him.


Only small nitpick, Modi is yet to become leader of BJP. If anybody here thinks that Modi is the undisputed leader in BJP then he is fooling himself only don't blame Modi for it. Being a cadre based party that BJP is it will be hard for anybody to become an undisputed leader in that party and Modi is yet to arrive on the national stage. Even as we speak he is still the CM of Gujarat who is being projected as PM candidate of his party. Unless he doesn't arrive in parliament I fail to see how people think he has arrived on the national stage for BJP. Right now he is pitching for the same but only post election we will know where Modi stands on the national stage.

So a place where Modi is yet to go people have already started blaming him for the supposed mess happening in that place !!!! And we have people who are claiming in other thread that voters are not fools. YEAH SURE give me that koolaid a bit more :roll:

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sagar G » 19 Feb 2014 12:57

merlin wrote:No need to. He is the C-team. Why vote for B-team and C-team? Should vote for A-team right?


Absolutely I congratulate you yet again for having this clarity of thought.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby disha » 19 Feb 2014 13:01

kumarn wrote:In response to this:
State Wide Water Supply Grid in Gujarat

I was sent this by a good friend, a muslim (not does it matter) lady.

PM Candidate's Modi's Bluff

any help to counter this would be greatly appreciated.


First of all, do not be defensive. Ask her, is she anti-hindu? If not, then why is she sending you to a link that is still harping on Godhra? Yes, the burning alive of the 59 innocents was ghastly and even more ghastly was the riots that followed. And in any case, she should look at *Indians* dying and not Hindus-Muslims and given the SC/SIT verdicts you are putting it behind and you trust the SC/SIT more than any 2-bit leftist organization.

That brings to the 2-point :- that this is a leftist organization. And you can point her to what leftists do in China/Bengal and Nandigram. Tell her to find it herself and say it is better to put trust in anybody other than mass murderers like the leftist organization.

The above site is discredited., putting any credit in that site is just plain criminal.

Now coming to the point by point rebuttal above., take this:

For you (and others) this is coming from a person whose Brother-in-law worked for the sardar sarovar project., way back in 1980s and this is as authorative it gets on this forum (other forumites - feel free to make it my famous last words ;-) ) and definitely far (far more) authorative than what that crap of the site does.

From the article:

NaMo wrote:Even after so many years of Independence, water is taken to the soldiers on camel backs. Around 800 camels are reserved for this purpose. When I visited the soldiers, I saw their pain with my own eyes and friends, I ensured that a 700km long pipeline was made from the east of Gujarat till the Indo-Pak border in the west of Gujarat and pure Narmada water for drinking purposes was supplied. This happened because of my respect and feelings for the soldiers who are stationed at the border


Fascist interpretation wrote:The claim he makes is that because of his love and respect for the army men and due to his emotional attachment with them, he had himself ensured the laying down of the 700 km pipeline to bring water of Narmada to the Indo-Pak Border.

The reality is completely otherwise since the Kutch drinking water pipeline is part of a much bigger project called Sardar Sarovar Canal and Mahi Pipeline based drinking water supply plan which was in works as far back as 1999 when Modi was not even in contention to be Gujarat’s CM.


The SSP was envisaged in 1960s. The dream of taking Narmada water to the parched lands of kutch existed even before the dawn of independence. A true-blue Gujju will take a oath on Narmada and is a pilgrimage for Saurashtra and Kutchis. Of course modern day culture has destroyed or frayed those connections. The real project started not in 1999 as mentioned, but way before that in 1980s - and the real fun was started in 1990s. The delays forced by Medha and Dhotis actually increased the cost.

The point is NaMo is not a superman who has initiated the idea of SSP and taking the water's to Kutch. However NaMo is the CM that made it happen in the last 12 years. Here is what NaMo did:

* In March 2004, the Authority allowed a 15 m (49 ft) height increase to 110 m (360 ft).
* In March 2006, the Narmada Control Authority gave clearance for the height of the dam to increased from 110.64 m (363.0 ft) to 121.92 m (400.0 ft). This came after 2003 when the Supreme Court of India refused allow the height of the dam to increase again.

And currently NaMo is fighting hard to have the gates installed. The gates are ordered, are manufactured and are at the site but cannot be installed because the Central government has *NOT* given permission. NaMos point is install the gates (takes 3-4 years) and after installation keep it open till SC's decision comes based on hearings about increasing the lake area.

Point is each subsequent raising increased the capacity which allowed the Narmada canal to be extended all the way to Rajasthan.

The Narmada Canal brings water North from the Sardar Sarovar Dam 460 kilometres (290 mi) in Gujarat and 74 kilometres (46 mi) in Rajasthan.
Inaugurated on 24 April 2008, the The Narmada Canal comes as a blessing for the farmers and residents of Jalore District and Barmer Districts. These Zone of Rajasthan has High Saline water ( Khaara Paani)[\b] Hence the agricultural output was very poor. These zones have very poor monsoon, and the agricultural productivity was very poor. More than 65% of lands were Barren and could grown only thorny trees. The blessing of Narmada River has given happiness to the farmers of Rajasthan, the farms of Sanchore Teshil are having lush green crops of Bajri. This year the farmers are expecting a bumper crop and output of more than 45–60% higher than last year. Narmda Canal enter Rajasthan at Silu Village – 8 km from Sanchore city. The Silu Dam was inaugurates by Vasundra Raje the then Hon Chief Minister of Rajasthan.
Narmda Canal Main Canal in Rajasthan – is 74 km long and has 9 major distributries. The total length of Main Canal, Major Distributries and Secondary Distributries covers a huge area of 1477 km and spreads happiness and prosperity to 124 villages in Jalore and Barmer District.[1]


BTW, the joys Narmada is bringing to Raj, is paid by the Gujaratis. This is to do with Guj. taking over the financing after WB refused thanks to Medha/Dhotis (now you should know the hatred people have in Guj. for the Medha/Dhotis)

Coming to parched state, if your friend bring up "environmental issues"., just tell them that you wish for their children to die a slow death due to skelatal fluorisis https://www.google.com/search?q=skeletal+fluorosis&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=5VwEU577K4zpoAT61YCADA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=775. Send her the above link and tell her, does she wish it on her own kids (now or future?) and if not., how can she wish it on others? It is imperative that the fresh waters of Narmada rich the parched lands North Guj. and Raj (sorry, I cannot show any emotion or empathy to your friend)

Coming to the point of NaMo and the site., the site twists what NaMo said. NaMo said - please reserve a separate canal of some length specifically to address border areas. He made it happen via an executive decision. Nothing wrong in claiming credit where it is due. Anyway the canal was being built and instead of taking it some place else, he takes it to the border areas.

So the article goes on twisting it saying that the pipeline to kutch was already planned. Yes, in the general plan, the main pipe was to touch important centeres in kutch., but who took a branch from there to BSF? NaMo.

The article rubs it in as follows:

[b]The pipeline drinking water reached the Indo-Pak Border on 16th August, 2013 and that too intermittently and the distance between Rapar in Kutch and the Indo-Pak border is around 100 kms. This part of the drinking water pipeline was also a part of the Rapar project but it took ten long years for such a small stretch of pipeline to be laid.


It takes a while to get over the condescending attitude, the point is that even an intermittent 2 hour every 2 day drinking water supply is preferable over anything that gives skeletal fluorisis. And BTW, that is the same amount of drinking water which average citizens of Delhi gets - Thank You #aaptards of Kejri!!

Now why is the water intermittent? And why the "10 years" to the border? First of all you cannot just build branches and mains when you do not have water to supply and for that to happen, you have to monitor how much is the inflow from catchment and come up with advanced modelling and sometimes you just have to wait for the height to be raised and wait for the water level to rise before you can take the water further by extending the canals.

So the article twists and twists and twists to reach its own condescending conclusion just because they are anti-modi. Now coming back to your friend, just ask her - does she believe all that trash because she is anti-hindu? I will leave it up on how you want to play it., in case you want to have your friend - maybe you do not attack but just point out what you believe in.

Namely, under NaMos watch

1. The water *has* reached Raj
2. That BSF is getting water
3. There *is* agriculture and more value added agriculture in Kutch. The people of kutch are putting more store in NaMo (and the people of Gujarat too - electing him four times and 3 times as CM). So either the 2/3rd voters of Guj. are fools or the article writers are telling a lie somewhere else.

On a personal note, I have personally watched kutchis and south Raj's taking their cows and migrating south in Summer - to save their cattle herds and living dirt poor, near to subsistence life., and now they grow crops.

At any day, I would prefer to sink 400 sq. km of area under water if I can achieve this:

irrigate 17,920 km2 (6,920 sq mi) of land spread over 12 districts, 62 talukas, and 3,393 villages (75% of which is drought-prone areas) in Gujarat and 730 km2 (280 sq mi) in the arid areas of Barmer and Jalore districts of Rajasthan.


[Forget the additional benefits of drinking water to parched villages]

And while you are at it, sink her in information like following:

http://www.sunedison.com/wps/wcm/connect/b16fe5ba-78b4-4f1a-a733-21bd056dfe7e/Case_Study_Narmada-FINAL.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=b16fe5ba-78b4-4f1a-a733-21bd056dfe7e

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sagar G » 19 Feb 2014 13:06

Sanku wrote:In fact the very question that some how SS and AJ in parliament are running their own show independent of the core team with NaMo and RS and Advani et al is fantastic.

It is a fairly coordinated effort. You dont run a party size of BJP if you cant coordinate even this.


I was going to post a counter to this but then I found this article

How Narendra Modi made BJP soften stance on Telangana

A phone call from the BJP’s prime ministerial candidate Narendra Modi to party leaders on Sunday may have inspired the principal opposition’s decision to allow passage of Telangana Bill in the din.

Modi’s phone call after his meeting with TDP chief Chandrababu Naidu in Chandigarh on Sunday prompted the three-hour long meeting of the BJP’s parliamentary board at veteran LK Advani’s house that evening.

It was at this meeting that the BJP started toying with the idea of softening its stand that bill should not be passed without a structured discussion in Parliament. On Tuesday, it finally decided to allow the passage of the bill even in a din, but only after raising concerns of Seemandhra. Advani had been opposed to this view throughout and wanted a thorough discussion.

In the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday, the BJP will move four amendments to address ‘concerns’ of Seemandhra. “It is not the BJP’s intention to block the legislation. We would like the government to accept our amendments but if they don’t, we may still support the bill,” the senior leader said.

At his meeting with Modi on Sunday, Naidu had stressed that public statements by BJP leaders were sending conflicting signals in the state. Naidu wants pre-poll pact with BJP and felt that latter’s stand on Telangana will have bearings even on TDP’s electoral fortunes in its stronghold Seemandhra. The TDP chief cautioned that the party could end up antagonising the people of Seemandhra and leave the entire Telangana region in the Congress’ lap.

“Congress is playing double game. If we had opposed the passage in din, government would have blamed us for blocking the bill. Passage of the bill was not possible without BJP’s supoprt,” Swaraj told reporters. She also spoke in the LS about the injustice done to Seemandhra region — a position that also addresses the TDP’s concern—and demanded compensation for the entire state.

“The government should come out with concrete measures to address the concerns of Seemandhra and other regions of Andhra Pradesh,” BJP chief Rajnath Singh said.


So a lot is happening behind the back which we have no idea of but anyways that must not stop us from being "more political than thou" and preaching to seasoned politicians how to do politics.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sanku » 19 Feb 2014 13:13

Sagar G wrote:
Sanku wrote:In fact the very question that some how SS and AJ in parliament are running their own show independent of the core team with NaMo and RS and Advani et al is fantastic.

It is a fairly coordinated effort. You dont run a party size of BJP if you cant coordinate even this.


I was going to post a counter to this but then I found this article

How Narendra Modi made BJP soften stance on Telangana

So a lot is happening behind the back which we have no idea of but anyways that must not stop us from being "more political than thou" and preaching to seasoned politicians how to do politics.


Good find. It goes to show, how things are done in politics. Yes its smoke and mirrors, but then when was politics not so ?

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sagar G » 19 Feb 2014 13:16

Sharp disha garu sharp, awesome post.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby member_28352 » 19 Feb 2014 13:18

LKA is too naive in thinking that INC would have allowed a structured debate. INC would have passed the bill and BJP would have looked stupid not supporting the bill. Looks like NM made the best of a bad deal. Also shows he is aware of INC's perfidious thought process. I think it is this INC level of deviousness in thinking that the INC and assorted jholawalas are afraid of. Ofcourse goes without saying that jholawalas/liberals/INC's are the most illiberal and devious sort of people.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Sagar G » 19 Feb 2014 13:29

Read the article in full as I fail to find anything in it to be missed.

How handpicked experts like Arvind Panagariya, Ravi Mantha are helping Narendra Modi fine-tune his 2014 poll strategy

Narendra Modi's high-octane, highly visible election campaign hides a quiet but equally intense effort - his increasingly frequent interactions with a handpicked group of intellectuals, opinion-makers and policy experts. This months-long and continuing engagement is now focused on three things: a big idea, a big speech and a big document.

Among those Modi and his core team are regularly interacting with are Columbia University professor Arvind Panagariya, ex-Fidelity Investments guru Ravi Mantha, Centre for Policy Research member Bibek Debroy and Manish Sabharwal, head of TeamLease.

Jagdish Bhagwati is an "inspirer" and a counter-icon to Amartya Sen, but Panagariya is the overseas-based academic whose inputs are sought regularly.

There are more experts Modi's team is in regular touch with and on some areas, such as national security, the team is close to identifying a main advisor.

Advisors, officials and others directly involved in this aspect of Modi's 2014 election strategy did not wish to speak to ET. Other people familiar with this effort, who spoke to ET, did so on the condition they not be identified.

ET has learnt the big idea being debated now is for Modi to make 24X7 power supply for Indians the centrepiece of his economic pitch. "24X7 power supply for all will be for Modi what the Golden Quadrilateral was for (Atal Bihari) Vajpayee," a person with detailed knowledge of these deliberations said, adding that Modi's strategy team thinks this pitch has both "popular resonance and the makings of a genuine, workable policy".

Intense Debate Over 'Big' Speech

The big speech, ET has learnt, has been a matter for intense debate among academics and policy experts advising Modi as well as among the BJP PM candidate's political core team. The speech, another person said, will be aimed to showcase Modi's policy vision - "easily understood policy changes that connect with voters but that are not just populist", that's how this person described the broad idea behind the speech.

Modi is learnt to have said the venue and the date should be such that it has maximum impact on a national audience given possible election schedules. An earlier idea of a January big speech was rejected as being too early, this person said, and the January 19 BJP national executive speech was "not the big speech". An end-February date is being debated, but "nothing is final yet", the person said.

The big document, ET has learnt, is a separate exercise from BJP's manifesto, which is a parallel exercise. Team Modi's current thinking is that the document should be around 50 pages and "should be clear and provide workable goals".

Another person, closely involved in making the document, said "work on this is continuing at a fast pace, with plenty of back-and-forth between Modi and his advisors". The timing of the big speech and the release of the document are linked, this person said.

This close interaction with academics is, another person said, a "new thing for Modi". "His background and political evolution did not make him a natural fit with intellectuals and academic types," said a person who's observed Modi closely.

This person said there was a "culture misfit on both sides when the interaction started", but over time, "Modi has begun to get along well with a diverse range of academics".

"He's a patient, careful listener," one person said, adding "he always wants experts to distill a point down to basics." "He will say 'I don't understand', and expects you to make a point in a way that he can use in a campaign speech." "He can call you at 12 midnight to discuss an issue," another person said. "There was a 9-hour meeting once, and a big presentation was made, his attention didn't waver once," this person recalled. Many interactions between Modi and his advisors are over email. "He has a cyber-savvy team around him and he's very email-friendly," one person said. There have been meetings in Gandhinagar as well.

Different teams have met Modi and the core team on different issues. "Not everyone of his advisors know when he's meeting whom (and) for what. It's (on a) need-to-know basis," another person told ET. "Sometimes, he takes different inputs from different people on the same subject."

This person also said Modi's emphasis on economics "is constant". "He has no academic training in the subject, but he's learnt through experience," he said. "Experiential learners generally ask sharp questions of those with academic rigour," this person said.

"Modi's thinking on industry has now shifted from concentrating on big investors to entrepreneurs...from India Inc to India Unincorporatated," another person said. "This is partly a matter of election rhetoric strategy and partly a matter of his thinking evolving," he said. "His campaign pitch is to tell voters they are entrepreneurial and they need good policies...big industry will be talked down." This person also said Modi's message to industry will be "indirect".

Recognising the importance of chief ministers is another of Modi's policy priorities. One person said, "He has said that having been a CM he knows how chief ministers can be treated by the Centre."

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby SanjayC » 19 Feb 2014 13:31

merlin wrote:On this issue, Modi has shown a lack of leadership. The way the bill was passed in the Lok Sabha was shameful. And the BJP helped in that subterfuge. Actually helped is not the correct word, its colluded. Modi is the face of the BJP so he should take the blame. Unless he wants to shy away from it and his blind supporters want to let him.


The only support that BJP enjoys for some degree in Andhra is in Telangana alone. So it has served the interests of its constituency by agreeing to the bill and returned the favour to its supporters. Other regions in Andhra which have fanatically supported Cong (and helped impose it on the rest of the country by giving it crucial LS seats) can now ask the Grand Old Party for an explanation. Voting Cong and cursing BJP for the doings of Cong is unethical and opportunistic.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby merlin » 19 Feb 2014 14:01

Sagar G wrote:
merlin wrote:No need to. He is the C-team. Why vote for B-team and C-team? Should vote for A-team right?


Absolutely I congratulate you yet again for having this clarity of thought.


Thanks. Not being a mindless Modi-bhakt-drone is indeed clarity of thought.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Singha » 19 Feb 2014 14:15

Sita got kidnapped and Bharata back in ayodhya is being blamed.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Naveen » 19 Feb 2014 14:20

merlin wrote:Thanks. Not being a mindless Modi-bhakt-drone is indeed clarity of thought.


"Modi-bhakt-drone" is the exact language used on social media to disparage Modi supporters by the other side which includes so-called media-"liberals" and the Congressis. Thanks for the clarity of thought.

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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Feb 2014 14:44

NM has to make serious efforts win 25 MP seats in AP. Any further delay will be fatal. CBN will find it very difficult to face Jagan and now. BJP can either make Jagan win all and support mafia after election or try to support CBN and get some of the 25. 17 are lost for another 10 years.

Just dump people like SS on long run. you can not have a tritor at high place for long without getting back stabbed.


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