Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

[Sridhar]

KaranM:

I...believe in...empirical evidence...Let me tell you what I found.
...
So tell me, where is the evidence of the stellar performance that you talk about repeatedly?

er...2008 was six small years ago....

So why don't you share some newer numbers if they exist and prove that Modi's Gujarat has achieved all that magic that is attributed to him? The most recent national human development report, to my knowledge, was from 2011, which these numbers are from. That report had its latest numbers from 2008 - a lot of the raw data come from the national sample surveys, which take place only once every few years. In any case, the 2000-2008 timeframe for these comparisons span a period of which all but the first two years were with Modi as CM in Gujarat.

[member_20317]

Rahul Mehta ji when you say "They will capture Indian oil wells via paid-media, paid-activists and paid-leaders" you are talking about losing Bhu-sampada. Something BR is also concerned about.

When you talk of "Competition requires serious law-drafting. BJP-leaders never spent a minute of their whole life in printing law-drafts that would make land cheap for industries and businesses", you have to realize NaMo too is trying to achieve a pivot by seeding a nationawide debate on entrepreneurial strength.

Please do try to lobby these people too. I agree they have rejected/ignored you earlier but that is life. Every single leader in all of political life in India has faced rejection or been ignored. Some overcome this barrier and seize whatever opportunity/resources they deem necessary for their projects. Some don't and it is a real lose in that case, if they are harboring good ideas.

The SMS thing you keep talking about has recently been launched as an outreach plan for the campaign. Today its campaign tomorrow it could be a modified form of referendums/direct democracy (eg. intra party cadre based polls instead of the AAP tamasha). To that extent AAP and you may actually have opened our eyes to a new possibility.

However, I still maintain that a person and his personal interest/stake, in the new structuring is important. Unless that is nailed, fit and proper, no way a mere good draft is going to help.

[Comer]

johneeG
, how about the other way around? When did the Hindus as a group protect the BJP?*snip*

That's not the way to look at it. A leader sets the direction and leads the way.. followers don't support a leader first. The leader leads, if people like it, they will follow. So the problem is with BJP not sticking to its guns rather than hindus not supporting BJP. But I do agree that hindus in general are not unified, they would rather fight amongst themselves than fight a common enemy BEFORE fighting amongst themselves.

Shonu, I am sure NaMo's thinking is much better than mine and he wouldn't expect people to support him first and do quid pro quo. After all, his vision is development for everyone barring none.
That said, personally, why the convenient Hindu flag waving at this juncture and turning back on BJP when the whole fiasco is not necessarily Hindu vs others. That is the limited point was trying to make.

[devesh]

RSS-apex has been biggest roadblock in making Hindu sects as strong as Sikhism

sorry to say: but this is a nonsensical comment without logic or substance.

[jamwal]

KaranM:

I would like to believe you on the story that Modi is the best administrator, and that he has done wonders. I don't believe in anecdotal evidence, but empirical evidence. I also try and go to original sources as much as possible since I have learned over time not to trust media reports. Let me tell you what I found.

I looked at the 2011 Human Development Report, that includes a lot of statistics. Here a link to the report.
http://www.iamrindia.gov.in/ihdr_book.pdf

The report is published by the Planning Commission, but the data themselves are collected through the usual means. Census where applicable, National Sample Surveys etc. (the list is in the report).

I focused on Table 2A.5, which is on page 257. This table lists the state wise Human Development Index numbers for the years ending 2000 and 2008 respectively, along with those for these two years for the three components of the HDI - the health index, income index and education index.

Care to share your analysis for 2008-2014 time period ? Modi was not being projected as any kind of national leader till 2011 AFAI remember.

[Sridhar]

KaranM:

I would like to believe you on the story that Modi is the best administrator, and that he has done wonders. I don't believe in anecdotal evidence, but empirical evidence. I also try and go to original sources as much as possible since I have learned over time not to trust media reports. Let me tell you what I found.

I looked at the 2011 Human Development Report, that includes a lot of statistics. Here a link to the report.
http://www.iamrindia.gov.in/ihdr_book.pdf

The report is published by the Planning Commission, but the data themselves are collected through the usual means. Census where applicable, National Sample Surveys etc. (the list is in the report).

I focused on Table 2A.5, which is on page 257. This table lists the state wise Human Development Index numbers for the years ending 2000 and 2008 respectively, along with those for these two years for the three components of the HDI - the health index, income index and education index.

Care to share your analysis for 2008-2014 time period ? Modi was not being projected as any kind of national leader till 2011 AFAI remember.

Why don't you share it if it exists? These are the latest numbers that I could find and to the best of my knowledge, there are no more recent numbers than this. Contrary to the possible beliefs of some of you, there is nothing sinister about the choice of these years. How does it matter in any case when he was projected to be the national leader. We are looking at figures for his state - his entire credentials rest on his record in his state. The empirical evidence available does not support the claims that are made. If you believe that the subsequent period dramatically improves upon the poor record in his first 6+ years as demonstrated by my analysis, why don't you share empirical evidence of that? I am happy to be proved wrong by objective evidence based on hard numbers and will publicly accept that. The question is - are you?

To summarize again, Gujarat ranked 17th out of the 19 states in terms of improvement in the education index, 14th out of 19 in overall HDI improvement and even in terms of the improvement in the income index, was ranked 12th out of 19 states. The best performance was in improving the health index, and even here, it ranked a mediocre 9th out of 19. In each of these measures, the % increase for Gujarat was below the national average. For more details see my post on page 41 of this thread.

[anchal]

The concerted attack on NaMo seems to be the new strategy by AAP guerrilla warriors. They want to control the narrative by harping on 400 crore ad spend. Of course all the while remaining tactfully silent about widely mentioned 500 crore image makeover exercise for RG alone, leave aside massive InB and rest Central Ministries spend of Bharat Nirman blared day and night in the last six months!

First Yogendra Yadav raised the bogey of 400 crores, then Kejriwal joined the chorus and now eminent journalist AAP linking Ambanis and black money without substantiating anything of course. Interesting times, from the positioning of AK for CM and Modi for PM to full frontal attack on Modi's integrity. Some of the AAP supporters have joined the new tune of course - under the grand fight against Con and BJP

If BJP wants to really break the barriers in this election, they will have to break this narrative that all parties are corrupt and only AAP is honest. How about a reality check on decorated credentials of Prashant Bhushan (grabbing 2 plots in Noida and some land in HP), Ashutosh (funder of Con mouthpiece Gulail), Kejriwal (no transfer in IRS and fixed position for wife too), land grabber Anjali Damania, eternal agitationist, Sonia henchwoman and NAC member Medha Patekar. Modi has to show these turds their place - on his own terms only. Waiting for his election rally in Delhi

And yes the first things that the BJP Government needs to do is to transfer Smt Sunita Kejriwal to Port Blair for 'better administration of the customs revenue streams'!

[svenkat]

BJP’s Elusive Search in Tamil Nadu

The students, who were in their early 20s or even less, mainly drawn from Chennai’s more politically proactive colleges,(goonda colleges) including Pachaiyappa’s College, Presidency College, and the Government Arts College, will be first-time voters in the 2014 General Election to the Lok Sabha. History must be amused at its own past. For, students from these institutions once nurtured the anti-Hindi agitation led by the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) in the mid-1960s. The success of that agitation became a game-changer in the State’s politics, having a long term bearish impact on the prospects of the national parties. And today, the saffron party appeared to appeal to the present generation of students, from these very institutions.

Other States later went on to emulate the Anand model, I told the students. But such things seemed to hardly interest today’s youth rushing to see the ‘new iron man’ from Gujarat, as one of them put it, with the rally organisers projecting Mr. Modi as being on par with Sardar Patel and Swami Vivekananda. Huge cut-outs of the trio at the venue of the rally at Vandalur said it all.

“A family friend near my house, a Modi supporter, asked us to come along today and that’s why we are going,” said one of the boys in the group who is in his second year, studying B.Sc. (Maths) in Pachaiyappa’s College. “But then, why Modi,” I asked. “He will do good things,” pat came the student’s reply. Beyond that the youngsters seemed to be indifferent to other issues.
That was a partial, yet fairly strong indication of the mood of the young voters today, as the saffron brigade makes a concerted effort to break into the nationalist-minded constituency in Tamil Nadu, which had traditionally voted the Congress and its regional allies in a Lok Sabha election. The exceptions were the two successive elections in 1998 and 1999 when former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee led the BJP-headed National Democratic Alliance, when the BJP made a small dent. But the Tamil youths are still hazy, more seeming to go by a bandwagon effect as shown by a large presence of students at the Modi rally.
Looking for allies

“An estimated over one lakh people have thronged the venue from the southern districts alone, Kanniyakumari in particular, and are waiting to hear Narendra Modi since morning,” claimed Sankar, a party volunteer from Villupuram. Bus-loads of volunteers from the State’s western districts — where the backward caste Gounders are the dominant community — lend weight to claims by sources in the State Intelligence and the party that the BJP, even before firming up its poll allies in the State, are eyeing nine of the 40 Lok Sabha Seats (39 in Tamil Nadu and the lone constituency in Puducherry). Four of these constituencies are in the Coimbatore-Salem-Erode-Karur-Namakkal belt where the Goundars have a sizeable presence. One faction of the Kongu region caste grouping, the Kongu Naadu Makkal Desiya Katchi led by Easwaran, has already tied up with the BJP.

Clearly, as both the main Dravidian parties, the DMK and the All India Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (AIADMK), shunned any pre-poll pact with the BJP, the saffron party has begun to stitch together an alliance with the major OBC groups across the State, including the Nadars and Thevars, and more locale-specific groups like the Sourashtra community, predominantly weavers, in Madurai. Together with the support of some of the smaller regional parties like the Vaiko-led Marumalarchi Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (MDMK), BJP campaign managers claimed, “we have already raised our vote-share in Tamil Nadu from just 3 per cent to 16 per cent.”

In fact, senior BJP leader from the State, Ela. Ganesan, addressing the rally, said that though the party’s initial plan to make the Vandalur rally a joint launch campaign did not fructify they have ‘almost completed’ the alliance formation. The Indiya Jananayaka Katchi (IJK), whose leader, Pari Vendar, is also the moving spirit behind the private SRM University near Chennai, and who seeks to rope in professionals, scientists, achievers in various fields and students to politics, vowed to play a fair friend of the BJP.

A few BJP functionaries from the western districts, requesting anonymity, conceded, “Sure, the BJP candidates will this time poll more votes in Tamil Nadu due to the Modi factor, but that is not enough. The major vote-banks are with the two main Dravidian parties, the DMK and AIADMK; and this is our problem now as to win seats we need a proper alliance.”

However, showcasing its new alliance arithmetic has been just one facet of the BJP’s poll strategy in Tamil Nadu so far. It is at best to reinforce its big picture of a wider national acceptability that Mr. Modi has seemingly gained in recent months, mainly on the planks of development, fighting corruption and repositioning India as the focus of regional security, politically and economically.

State-specific issues like federalism, repeated attacks on Tamil Nadu fishermen by the Sri Lanka Navy, inter-linking of rivers or the demand to reintroduce prohibition in the State — which Mr. Modi has successfully introduced in Gujarat — are dovetailed into this larger architecture, based on a grandiose image of Mr. Modi as an achiever.

From likening Mr. Modi’s political rise as someone from a most backward community to the social justice agenda of the social reformer Periyar, and to the political legend M.G. Ramachandran, who rose from the ranks as the true friend of the poor and the downtrodden — the chai waala not excluded — State BJP leaders including Dr. Tamizhisai Sounderrajan vied with one another with apt metaphors to endear Mr. Modi to the Tamil Nadu voters.


The BJP’s Prime Ministerial aspirant chose to be politically correct by beginning his speech with some catchy poetic lines in Tamil, but quickly switched over to his robust Hindi in a State where language continues to be an emotive issue even if no longer a defining one.
In fact, the moment Mr. Modi began speaking in Hindi, people started leaving the venue in droves. All the rapport that his supporters had till that point assiduously built with the crowd seemed to melt away in minutes. But an oblivious Gujarat Chief Minister happily continued in that vein

[Sridhar]

The political space, and consequently BRF is hopelessly polarized (in BRF's case, almost everybody who does not conform to the group think has been attacked and many have left). There was a time when what bound everybody on this forum together was their love for India. But it was a diverse group politically. There were Muslims participating, including in one case a member of a highly decorated military family, and at the same time people on the extreme right as well. I think it is close to unthinkable now. Now, if you happen to oppose Modi you are automatically branded as an enemy, a traitor, an anti-national and everybody gangs up on you. This is true of the political space and it is true of BRF. A big loss for BRF.

[svenkat]

Sridharji,
Thats untrue.Please say what you want to about modi.Atleast three persons have requested you to post on modi in that thread or a new one if mods allow it.

[anchal]

Sridhar, if you are pointing towards my post, I have not branded anybody by the terms that you mention. Besides what is wrong in supporting Modi, I say. Or has it become new definition of 'liberal political space'. If you posted as a broadcast, ignore this

Modi supporters still fare better than crazy mobs rallying behind political traders and treatment meted out to dissenters

[Sridhar]

Anchal,

I was not pointing to your post. In fact when I was drafting my post, yours was not even there. I was making a general observation.

[Misra]

Sridhar:

"I...believe in...empirical evidence...Let me tell you what I found.
...
So tell me, where is the evidence of the stellar performance that you talk about repeatedly?"

er...2008 was six small years ago....

So why don't you share some newer numbers if they exist and prove that Modi's Gujarat has achieved all that magic that is attributed to him?...

you've built a nice little straw man here--i'm not going to give it credence by feeding it or indulging you. as others have pointed out, go google

[Neela]

Gujarat's literacy rate rises by over 10%

Key takeaways

The provisional census data released on Thursday revealed that in the state there were 79.31% literates in the state, which is higher than the national rate that stood at 74.04%.
Interestingly, while the gap of literacy between males and females was very high in 2001, the 2011 data revealed that it has narrowed down.
In 2001, the male literacy rate was 79.66% while for females it was 57.8%. This saw an increase in 2011. Literacy rate for males had gone up to 87.23% while for females it was 70.73%
Kerala topped the literacy chart with 93.91% literates followed by 92.28% in Lakshadweep. Apart from Union territories, states like Himachal Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Uttarakhand and Maharashtra had a better literacy rate.

From 2001 to 2011, there is a 10% increase in literacy and is still above the national average.
This will improve as employment and profitable agriculture will lead to more families being able to afford schools.
Overall - trending upwards.

[member_28397]

http://www.newslaundry.com/2014/02/20/candidates-2014/

NaMo to give interview to Madhu Trehan of News Laundry to be broadcasted live on NDTV.

Madhu Trehan is going to take interviews of all PM frontrunners starting with NaMo(3rd March), Arvind Kejriwal (March 4th), Mamata Banerjee (March 5th), Akhilesh Yadav (March 6th), Lalu Prasad Yadav (March 8th)

Personally I think this is utter stupidity from Modi media team, boxing him with all these idiots.

[Sridhar]

Classic shoot and scoot tactics there by you, Misraji. And selective quoting. Like I responded to you (and you conveniently chose to miss from the quote) and to Jamwal later, these are the latest numbers available. If you are so sure that the later years are dramatically different, as implied by your post, provide evidence for that. Else, there is no credibility in your claim.

[Comer]

BJP’s Elusive Search in Tamil Nadu

Unless things have changed drastically in the last few years, I will be really surprised if the above mentioned colleges were turning to NaMo. There may be stray students going for the rally though.
If it is true that people left when he started speaking in Hindi, I really wonder about the people who thought he will come and speak in Tamil. Though i think it is highly unlikely since lot of leaders have come and spoke exclusively in Hindi to large crowds without people leaving.

[krishnan]

BJP needs good local leaders , they hardly have any presence here

[Sridhar]

Gujarat's literacy rate rises by over 10%

Key takeaways

The provisional census data released on Thursday revealed that in the state there were 79.31% literates in the state, which is higher than the national rate that stood at 74.04%.
Interestingly, while the gap of literacy between males and females was very high in 2001, the 2011 data revealed that it has narrowed down.
In 2001, the male literacy rate was 79.66% while for females it was 57.8%. This saw an increase in 2011. Literacy rate for males had gone up to 87.23% while for females it was 70.73%
Kerala topped the literacy chart with 93.91% literates followed by 92.28% in Lakshadweep. Apart from Union territories, states like Himachal Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Uttarakhand and Maharashtra had a better literacy rate.

From 2001 to 2011, there is a 10% increase in literacy and is still above the national average.
This will improve as employment and profitable agriculture will lead to more families being able to afford schools.
Overall - trending upwards.

What you conveniently chose to omit in your quote and your Key Takeaways from the report was in its very first line and hence impossible to have inadvertently missed. During this period between 2001 and 2011, almost all of it under Modi's magical rule, Gujarat dropped from 16th to 18th position among the states and UTs on this very important measure of development. Given that there are 35 states and UT's, Gujarat has now dropped below median on literacy. This has happened under Modi's watch. Are you sure you want to project this as a positive development-related achievement of Modi's rule?

[kapilrdave]

Most RSS-apex leaders have been and still are supporters of VV = Varna Vyavastha, whatever it means. And I am anti-VV to core.

What/who is 'RSS-apex' leaders?

Let me tell you a story. Gandhiji once visited a RSS sammelan. He knew about RSS's mission towards Hindu awakening. So he wanted to know if RSS was giving due importance to the SCs also in their cause. So from the stage he called out to the entire audience and asked how many Harijans are there. None raised his hand. Before Gandhiji say something, someone beside him who was RSS cadre told him that in RSS we do not do such a distinction. Please ask how many Hindus are there. They will all raise their hand. Gandhiji was awed by this and then he confessed in public that what he himself if trying to do for India is being done more efficiently by RSS!!

Gandhiji divided Hindus by calling SCs as Harijan. RSS unites them by calling as Hindus.

Either you don't know what RSS is or you don't understand what "RSS-apex leaders" are saying.

NaMo was pracharak in RSS and so it should presumed that NaMo is pro-VV unless NaMo makes it clear in loud, open and public that he is anti-VV.

A lie is supported by another lie!!

But let me borrow your binary understanding of VV for a while and ask you similar questions.
What have YOU got against bramhins?
What have YOU got against baniya?
What have YOU got against patels?
What have YOU got against jains that you oppose their 'minority' status?
Why are you against a society based on merits?

You have hurt my feeling as I'm not SC/ST. Along with all your legal drafts, I order request you to introduce another draft that bars people from atrocities committed against the upper casts. Then I will use the same law against you first .

NaMo has been best CM for SC\ST till date India has seen across state.

But that doesn't count and has zero value because he has not spoken publically that he is anti VV. Right?

But this is also due to vote bank politics --- after all, everyone does want SC\ST votes. If NaMo is anti-VV, then he should have no problem in attacking VV and saying that he is anti-VV. So there is valid reason for this question to be asked "are you pro-VV or anti-VV".

Assuming what you are saying is true, still what is wrong with that? What is wrong in doing good work for votebank politics? Afterall that is the ideal situation in a democracy. Tomorrow you will say that Modi has done great development of India because he wants the Indian votes. Otherwise he has utter hateret for Indians.

It is NOT just VV. RSS-apex has been notorious for support for landlords, kings and inheritance over temple wealth !!

And you have no proof of this. Right? What next? RSS is paid and maintained by MNCs? I see that you have moved from VV and started attacking RSS for no real reason. But I will deal with it.

RSS-apex was the only political group in Indian in 1970s which opposed Devi Indira Amma's decision to end King's Privy Purse because RSS-organizations get huge donations from ex-kings. RSS-apex has always been opposed to land reforms because RSS-organizations got huge donations from landlords. RSS-apex has also supported Rajasthan High Court decision to say that "it is legal for temple murti to own land" !! And RSS-apex has opposed the proposed laws to make temples community property of Hindus (Hindus, not govt) and run it like Sikh Gurudwara are run. And thats because donations RSS-organizations get from temple-owners. IOW, RSS-apex has been biggest roadblock in making Hindu sects as strong as Sikhism. NaMo comes from that stream. And so it should be presumed that NaMo supports all nefarious thoughts of RSS-apex unless he openly denounces it. (note : RSS-workers are committed folks. I have only abused RSS-apex, and NOT workers).

Let me get this straight. There is very little or no money involved in RSS programs. Whatever fund is required is raised by swayamsevaks. The little fund needed to run the RSS offices across India is also raised by swayamsevaks as gurudakshina. Unless you assume RSS = BJP (which is also not true) What you are saying is blatant lie having no proof.

RSS-apex has been biggest roadblock in making Hindu sects as strong as Sikhism

And for this statement I have nothing to say but

First you started as a Hindu nationalist, then started BJP bashing, then started NaMo bashing and now RSS bashing. Do I see the trajectory here?

[Neela]

What you chose to omit in your quote from the report was in its very first line. During this period between 2001 and 2011, almost all of it under Modi's so-called magical rule, Gujarat dropped from 16th to 18th position among the states on this measure. Are you sure you want to project this as a positive achievement of Modi's rule?

The state is not regressing in absolute terms of literacy and over the decade, lrates have improved. It is not a cause for concern. What would be worrying is if allocation of funds for the education sector drops in the state. That is not happening.

Are you sure you want to project this as a positive achievement of Modi's rule

You would do well to cut this attitude out and behave yourself when spoken to politely.

[Neela]

Sridhar,
You still have not explained what approach the BJP should take to voice their opposition more forcefully. You wanted to the opposition both inside and outside the parliament.
Do explain before you accuse others of shoot and scoot tactics.

[Sridhar]

Come on, my friend. What is impolite about anything in my post? I have not attacked you personally (you did in the past on this thread). I have not used bad language. Where is there anything objectionable in the post? It is a legitimate question. I don't think this is anywhere close to being the kind of evidence that would convince anybody that Modi has done wonders with development in Gujarat. That is my point.

[Sridhar]

Sridhar,
You still have not explained what approach the BJP should take to voice their opposition more forcefully. You wanted to the opposition both inside and outside the parliament.
Do explain before you accuse others of shoot and scoot tactics.

Anything more than a statement by a state-level energy minister whose name I bet most people on this forum have not heard of (that too in a press release not by the party but the ministry) and which predictably did not make it to the headlines anywhere. Is there a parliament question by any BJP MP in either house on this? A demand for a debate in Parliament without which the Govt would not be allowed to pass key legislation? (This has been done for much less critical issues). A mention in the regular media interactions by any of the spokespersons of the party? An article in a BJP publication, or by the BJP MP who also happens to be a senior journalist? A press release? An ad in the newspaper? Anything in the campaign speeches now or during the previous assembly elections?

Use your imagination - anything at all would have been more forceful than what the BJP did. Your repeated hounding on this as if you have me on the mat for something is almost like asking somebody to provide examples of numbers greater than negative infinity.

[VikramS]

Sridhar:

The key takeaway you refuse to see is that Gujarat has seen an influx of a lot of manual labour from Bihar etc which is unlikely to be very literate. Further you have decided to turn a blind eye on the reduction in school drop out rates in Gujarat. Interestingly the reduction in drop out rates happened primarily because separate toilets for girls allowed them to stay in school. Something a typical AAP supporter will not even dream of.

Read and sulk before you go for you next dharna.

http://www.sumit4all.com/life/school-dr ... nd-toilets

[Neela]

Come on, my friend. What is impolite about anything in my post? I have not attacked you personally (you did in the past on this thread). I have not used bad language. Where is there anything objectionable in the post? It is a legitimate question. I don't think this is anywhere close to being the kind of evidence that would convince anybody that Modi has done wonders with development in Gujarat. That is my point.

I shall ignore the repeated recourse to "personal attacks" - every 4th post from you is alluding to this.

Maybe Modi has not done wonders for Gujarat and other CMs have. But the people of Gujarat are convinced and have voted him to power 3 times. So either there is something wrong with the populace of Gujarat or something wrong with your perception.

[Arjun]

I don't think this is anywhere close to being the kind of evidence that would convince anybody that Modi has done wonders with development in Gujarat. That is my point.

Sridhar, if you've had any experience at all in economic debates you would realize that the terms 'development' and 'growth' as used by Modi and by all economic right-wingers is primarily from the perspectives of economy, infrastructure, job creation & economic opportunities. There is a separate set of metrics normally classified under HDI which are the favourite of the Amartya Sen crowd - that includes metrics in education / healthcare that you are focused on. HDI growth has been proven to be correlated to economic strength but with a bit of a lag. So improvement in HDI parameters would generally take a few years to catch up with the growth in economic metrics.

[Sridhar]

There was a personal attack from you - you called me dishonest. That is a serious personal allegation against me. When asked to provide an example, you did not. Let that pass in any case.

Regarding getting voted to power - I am sure you would agree that it is not any evidence that the person has done wonders for the state's development. Otherwise Laloo would be considered the King of development, wouldn't he?

[Sridhar]

Arjun,

The HDI is not a worthless or leftist metric - it is an internationally accepted metric. Leave that aside for a moment. One of the important components is the income index. The performance even on that is abysmal as I have shown. Also how much of a lag do you think is expected? The literacy numbers that Neela provided (I merely filled the holes by providing the real albeit inconvenient) picture are for almost a decade into Modi's rule.

In any case, why don't you lay out your case. I am happy to look at it with an open mind. But I don't believe mere platitudes - so hard data please.

BTW, you know nothing about my experience with economic debates. Let's leave out my person from the debate please and focus on the issues.

[Arjun]

Regarding getting voted to power - I am sure you would agree that it is not any evidence that the person has done wonders for the state's development. Otherwise Laloo would be considered the King of development, wouldn't he?

You have not posted a single post in the Economy Thread in the 10 years you have been on this forum...you don't exhibit any understanding whatsoever of the basics of economics - and yet you choose to opine on weighty economic matters !! My dear chap - if you want an education on these matters - please visit the Economy thread and ask for it and there will be folks willing to oblige.

[Sridhar]

Arjun,

Please don't question my credentials on this forum (or otherwise for that matter). It is a recipe for getting embarrassed. The fact that you don't know about my contribution to the forum means squat.

[Neela]

There was a personal attack from you - you called me dishonest. That is a serious personal allegation against me. When asked to provide an example, you did not. Let that pass in any case.

Regarding getting voted to power - I am sure you would agree that it is not any evidence that the person has done wonders for the state's development. Otherwise Laloo would be considered the King of development, wouldn't he?

Sure.
But then again it takes a special kind of confirmation bias to not see parameters of state development , reduction in crime, corruption in conjunction with re-election.
People dont talk of Bihar when they talk of development do they?

[Sridhar]

Neela,

I agree. I am just pointing to the fact that your 'evidence' is irrelevant.

Regarding confirmation bias, you might want to think about whether you are affected by it. I have looked at one piece of evidence and presented it. Why don't you present some evidence to the contrary. Maybe we'll all learn from this exercise. and reduce our biases. But the first requirement is that the evidence must be objective, credible and verifiable. Deal?

[Arjun]

Sridhar - the software on BR allows one to track all the posts by any member by forum. So your contribution in the Technology & Economic Forum is out there for all to see.

Leave that aside - lets first agree on the parameters that need to be tracked. Lets talk about economic growth (ie growth in GDP or per capita income), results in terms of accelerated infrastructure development, job creation metrics, fiscal discipline, focus on export competitiveness, ease of doing business, stress on large-scale manufacture, urban development.

To me ( and to any right-wing or centrist economist) these are the right metrics on which to compare the candidates both in terms of their stated intention as well as their performance. If there is any data in a negative light for Modi on any of these fronts, feel free to post.

[Comer]

Why doesn't AAP talk about nationalisation of Periyar's works? Shows the kind of party they are.

[Sridhar]

VikramS,

I will ignore your mocking tone attack on me and focus on the substance. You refer to the school dropout rates, but all we have in the link you have provided is Modi's word for it. I don't trust secondary sources, but will look up dropout numbers also and see how much truth there is in that. And how it compares to the rest of the country - dropout rates at the primary level have been reduced significantly across the country due to a variety of factors. In fact, the attention is now shifting to secondary enrollment rates. But I will get back on this.

[Neela]

Neela,
I agree. I am just pointing to the fact that your 'evidence' is irrelevant.

You agree to what?
What is irrelevant about the evidence?

[Sridhar]

Arjun,

Perhaps you are not old enough on the forum to know that there were at least a couple of instances of entire threads and posts being deleted due to forum glitches. My post count went down by at least a couple of thousands in each of those instances. Yes, I have not been active in recent years, but perhaps Suraj, who is now a forum mod and an active participant of high quality on the economic forum might be able to educate you about my contribution to the forum specifically on economic, development and infrastructure issues. Regarding credentials outside of this forum, how many members do you know who have had a say in the planning and implementation of major infrastructure projects (in my case, metro projects) and been invited by the Chief Minister of a state to serve on an advisory body. Let me guess. Zero?

In any case, your post was a below the belt attack. There is no reason a complete rookie cannot say something sensible. And even on this thread, I doubt that anybody has spent as much effort on backing their posts with objective, credible and verifiable evidence as I have. Your post was unwarranted.

[Sridhar]

Neela,

You had pointed to his being elected. That was irrelevant. I agree that this is not any evidence of being a development champion because otherwise Laloo should qualify. Now you are saying that there are other metrics. So provide them, so that all of us can reduce our confirmatory biases. Deal?

[Arjun]

In any case, your post was a below the belt attack. There is no reason a complete rookie cannot say something sensible. And even on this thread, I doubt that anybody has spent as much effort on backing their posts with objective, credible and verifiable evidence as I have. Your post was unwarranted.

Sridhar, if you have indeed posted earlier in the Economic thread and these got deleted for some reason - I take back my words.

But if that is not the case - then zero posts over 10 years in the Economy Thread is as good an indication as any, that that is NOT an area of interest for you. And yes, I would definitely not expect sensible opinions on economics from someone who ostensibly has never shown any interest in it earlier.

Since you believe you back your posts with objective data - I am all for seeing the objective data that you present for the specific parameters I highlighted in my previous post. I will be eagerly awaiting it.