Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Locked
shyamoo
BRFite
Posts: 483
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shyamoo »

Sushupti wrote:
He has invested his ego in anti-Modiism and may be suffering from self-loathing brown shame. Leave him and focus on other many more low-hanging fruits. He will change when MSM will start singing songs for Modi.
There is no way, I can give up now!!! I assure you, I can/will bring him around. Do know a little about piskology. If I can convince really good looking girls to get involved with me, this is will be nothing :mrgreen:

I presented facts , which obviously, are not going to work. I have to use the emotional approach. Pyaar se! :twisted:

Edited: disha garu, just saw your post. He will come around. Sometimes, it's about ego and how they got corrected by facts and just will not accept the fact.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

vympel.. you are a performer in l&m dhaaga. there ain't anything we will see new. go ahead! :twisted:
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8261
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by disha »

vnmshyam wrote: There is no way, I can give up now!!! I assure you, I can/will bring him around. Do know a little about piskology. If I can convince really good looking girls to get involved with me, this is will be nothing :mrgreen:
Maybe the good looking girls really want to get involved with you and all they want to see you approach them first so that they do not feel "rejected" ... Just pointing out. :wink:
shyamoo
BRFite
Posts: 483
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shyamoo »

It is easier to convince people like these than people that have a financial/influence reasons for opposing NaMo. Most of the people ( including myself ) are impressionable to a certain extent. If people have been influenced in a particular way, the reverse is also very easily possible.
People with financial or other implications and people that are indifferent ( to a lesser extent ) are the ones that will be difficult if not impossible.
member_20292
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2059
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20292 »

Muppalla wrote:How to make Narendra Modi PM: Web masters @work
How to make Narendra Modi PM: Web masters @work

By the way we have a BRFite who is a classmate and close friend to to Arvind Gupta :)
His name starts with an S.

I know the gentleman too. Have met him multiple times. He is quite a networker.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4226
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Rudradev »

vnmshyam wrote: The going is tough.. Here's a transcript of my chat with hima few minutes ago:

Friend: One thing is sure Shyam... no matter however good man Modi is, I won't vote for him nor do I ask others for it. you can blame on my expericences or me... thats decided at least for near future...
Me: Can I ask why?
Friend: easy answer to your question is, I want to be illogical and hold on to my decision..... so no reason can explain you why I have decided like that
Me: give me the difficult answer. I would really like to understand...
Friend: I don't want to... you will try to prove that my difficult reason is illogical or can be changed.... so I am mentioning that I WANT to be illogical(not thinking) and want to hold onto my decision


Sigh!! Going to take a little more effort. Oh! He will come around..

Sent him a link to Modinama. He said that he would read and get back to me as he is going to compare that with something that he read some where.
Vmshyam ji, first of all, I deeply admire your efforts. If Modi becomes PM he will owe it to the grassroots efforts of those like you, who put personal relationships on the line to make people understand why India needs him.

That said, I do not agree with some other posters who think Vmshyamji's gulti colleague is a "psycho" or an aberration or any kind of exception to the rule. In my informal polling, I myself encountered this EXACT same attitude-- to one extent or another-- from people who I otherwise consider sensible and patriotic Indians.

I don't know what it is... I think it is something to do with the Indian impulse to be contrarian or argumentatitve. Some just insisted that Modi is "no better" than others, why vote for him, what is he going to do differently, we have doubts about his governance claims/role in 2002 etc. NO MATTER WHAT I presented as arguments to counter their beliefs. At some stage when they couldn't respond intelligently to my arguments any more, they simply shut down and said "no no, I don't think so" and tried to change the subject.

I hope, of course, that they simply did not want to admit being in the wrong, and that what I told them will work on their minds over time. But I'm not sure. It seems as if many of us Indians just want to be "different" or "individualistic" or "go against the grain" and the tendency gets amplified as the tendency to go towards the grain becomes stronger. So the more popular Modi (or anybody) gets, the more that "supporting Modi" gets identified as something that "the crowd/jantaa" is doing, the more strong the tendency becomes for people to take the position "I will not vote for Modi, simply because I am different from/better than the common jantaa mob."

It's an emotional response, and cannot be countered with straight facts and logic. Maybe the trick with these sorts of people is to play the emotional game back at them... make them angry at what all the Maino-Manmohan government and its potential Third Front allies have done to the country, and how it affects them and their families.
Last edited by Rudradev on 24 Oct 2013 00:25, edited 1 time in total.
member_20292
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2059
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_20292 »

VikramS wrote:disha: Given his educational background, many here are likely to have known him.
Who are the Banarasis here , I wonder?
shyamoo
BRFite
Posts: 483
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shyamoo »

disha wrote: Maybe the good looking girls really want to get involved with you and all they want to see you approach them first so that they do not feel "rejected" ... Just pointing out. :wink:
saar, I'm not in Lalmohan's league.. :)
It's typically the other way around. I'm more or less an aquired taste. People usually come around after spending a little time with me.. ( No pun intended :D )
muraliravi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2819
Joined: 07 May 2009 16:49

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by muraliravi »

Rudradev wrote:
vnmshyam wrote: The going is tough.. Here's a transcript of my chat with hima few minutes ago:

Friend: One thing is sure Shyam... no matter however good man Modi is, I won't vote for him nor do I ask others for it. you can blame on my expericences or me... thats decided at least for near future...
Me: Can I ask why?
Friend: easy answer to your question is, I want to be illogical and hold on to my decision..... so no reason can explain you why I have decided like that
Me: give me the difficult answer. I would really like to understand...
Friend: I don't want to... you will try to prove that my difficult reason is illogical or can be changed.... so I am mentioning that I WANT to be illogical(not thinking) and want to hold onto my decision


Sigh!! Going to take a little more effort. Oh! He will come around..

Sent him a link to Modinama. He said that he would read and get back to me as he is going to compare that with something that he read some where.
Vmshyam ji, first of all, I deeply admire your efforts. If Modi becomes PM he will owe it to the grassroots efforts of those like you, who put personal relationships on the line to make people understand why India needs him.

That said, I do not agree with some other posters who think Vmshyamji's gulti colleague is a "psycho" or an aberration or any kind of exception to the rule. In my informal polling, I myself encountered this EXACT same attitude-- to one extent or another-- from people who I otherwise consider sensible and patriotic Indians.

I don't know what it is... I think it is something to do with the Indian impulse to be contrarian or argumentatitve. Some just insisted that Modi is "no better" than others, why vote for him, what is he going to do differently, we have doubts about his governance claims/role in 2002 etc. NO MATTER WHAT I presented as arguments to counter their beliefs. At some stage when they couldn't respond intelligently to my arguments any more, they simply shut down and said "no no, I don't think so" and tried to change the subject.

I hope, of course, that they simply did not want to admit being in the wrong, and that what I told them will work on their minds over time. But I'm not sure. It seems as if many of us Indians just want to be "different" or "individualistic" or "go against the grain" and the tendency gets amplified as the tendency to go towards the grain becomes stronger. So the more popular Modi (or anybody) gets, the more that "supporting Modi" gets identified as something that "the crowd/jantaa" is doing, the more strong the tendency becomes for people to take the position "I will not vote for Modi, simply because I am different from/better than the common jantaa mob."

It's an emotional response, and cannot be countered with straight facts and logic. Maybe the trick with these sorts of people is to play the emotional game back at them... make them angry at what all the Maino-Manmohan government and its potential Third Front allies have done to the country, and how it affects them and their families.
Well, i have to say that most people with whom i interact these days, go to the extent of either ignoring 2002 or even saying "every action has a reaction, we love modi". maybe its just me.
Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3042
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Rudradev wrote:Rahul Gandhi has opened Pandora's Box by talking about his Dadi and his father, and his experience of their deaths "in the nation's service."

Leave aside the dubious actions of those leaders which were directly responsible for their deaths. If Rahul Gandhi wants to bring his Paternal Family into the discourse, hoping to swing votes in his favour based on Dynasty loyalism, then his Maternal Family should receive no less scrutiny!
Rudradev-ji,
The antecedents of Sonia have been long known. Here is an excellent article by TVR Shenoy in 1999.

http://www.financialexpress.com/old/ie/ ... 14058.html

There is a particularly relevant part in the article.
Congressmen are strong believers in genetics. Indira Gandhi inherited her talents from Panditji and Priyanka Vadra from Rajiv Gandhi according to the Congress gospel. By that logic, we should look very closely at the late Signor Maino, specifically what he thought of Communists.

Maino was a Fascist. The Left uses that word loosely, but the Congress boss's father was the genuine article -- one of Mussolini's men. Mainonamed his dog `Stalin' to demonstrate his contempt for Communism. His daughter goes one better -- she doesn't hesitate to kick the Marxists, secure in the knowledge that the poodles will creep straight back into the kennels of 10, Janpath.
shyamoo
BRFite
Posts: 483
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by shyamoo »

Rudradev wrote:
vnmshyam wrote: The going is tough.. Here's a transcript of my chat with hima few minutes ago:

Friend: One thing is sure Shyam... no matter however good man Modi is, I won't vote for him nor do I ask others for it. you can blame on my expericences or me... thats decided at least for near future...
Me: Can I ask why?
Friend: easy answer to your question is, I want to be illogical and hold on to my decision..... so no reason can explain you why I have decided like that
Me: give me the difficult answer. I would really like to understand...
Friend: I don't want to... you will try to prove that my difficult reason is illogical or can be changed.... so I am mentioning that I WANT to be illogical(not thinking) and want to hold onto my decision


Sigh!! Going to take a little more effort. Oh! He will come around..

Sent him a link to Modinama. He said that he would read and get back to me as he is going to compare that with something that he read some where.
Vmshyam ji, first of all, I deeply admire your efforts. If Modi becomes PM he will owe it to the grassroots efforts of those like you, who put personal relationships on the line to make people understand why India needs him.

That said, I do not agree with some other posters who think Vmshyamji's gulti colleague is a "psycho" or an aberration or any kind of exception to the rule. In my informal polling, I myself encountered this EXACT same attitude-- to one extent or another-- from people who I otherwise consider sensible and patriotic Indians.

I don't know what it is... I think it is something to do with the Indian impulse to be contrarian or argumentatitve. Some just insisted that Modi is "no better" than others, why vote for him, what is he going to do differently, we have doubts about his governance claims/role in 2002 etc. NO MATTER WHAT I presented as arguments to counter their beliefs. At some stage when they couldn't respond intelligently to my arguments any more, they simply shut down and said "no no, I don't think so" and tried to change the subject.

I hope, of course, that they simply did not want to admit being in the wrong, and that what I told them will work on their minds over time. But I'm not sure. It seems as if many of us Indians just want to be "different" or "individualistic" or "go against the grain" and the tendency gets amplified as the tendency to go towards the grain becomes stronger-- i.e, the more popular Modi (or anybody) gets, the more that "supporting Modi" gets identified as something that "the crowd/jantaa" is doing, the more strong the tendency gets to take the position "I will not vote for Modi, simply because I am different from/better than the common jantaa mob."

It's an emotional response, and cannot be countered with straight facts and logic. Maybe the trick with these sorts of people is to play the emotional game back at them... make them angry at what all the Maino-Manmohan government and its potential Third Front allies have done to the country, and how it affects them and their families.
Rudradev saar,

As usual, you come to crux of the issue. Like I said, the best way to deal with this is 'Pyaar se'. Logic will only take you to a certain extent. Reading between the lines, I pretty sure, there was some kind of an incident that has set him on this course.

Different strokes for different folks.

We can use this space to fine tune tactics in our efforts to convince/convert the lost souls..
Sushupti
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5198
Joined: 22 Dec 2010 21:24

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sushupti »

Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4152
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Atri »

NaMo is bringing in a much needed "Evangelical streak" among Hindus.. :) I am glad.. this should translate into actual Hindu evangelism. Will be useful in the process of assimilation in future.. :) Those in their 20s, 30s and 40s should remember this streak and sharpen it.. mata is going to need it 2-3 decades from today.
vivek.rao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3775
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vivek.rao »

http://www.newsinsight.net/Twotales,two ... age=page-1
Narendra Modi and the Nehru-Gandhis face rather peculiar sets of challenges that one party may well overcome without the other quite following suit. For Sonia Gandhi and her heir, Rahul, the challenge is to live down the corrupt and venal legacy of the Manmohan Singh government, and as persevering as their aides are, with the active connivance of the Central Bureau of Investigation, they may not succeed in the mission.

On the other hand, the Gujarat chief minister has to replicate his overwhelming electoral success in the state on a nationwide basis to be prime minister, and his test is to mould the vast Bharatiya Janata Party and Sangha Parivar cadre and machinery to his way of thinking, his purposive nationalism, his privileging of work over all else, and his natural bias for honesty and integrity, and while the climb would be arduous, Narendra Modi is not one to be easily daunted.
Apparently, the thought of leaving the government had crossed the prime minister’s mind previous to the Rahul episode. It was also considerably agitating his immediate family. To secure his exit, attempts were made to obtain the necessary permission. Note this. You cannot be a Congress prime minister without the requisite permission, and the initiative for this cannot originate from your side. Similarly, for demitting office, you need permission. The order, to cut a long story short, was denied. The denial was not overtly threatening but mutedly menacing
The prime minister was afraid that he would land in jail if he resigned before the end of his term. What had he done, who had megaphoned apropos his incorruptibility and personal integrity until the moment, to deserve a prison sentence? There were whispers of Coalgate, but it is only after the Central Bureau of Investigation implicated the industrialist, Kumar Mangalam Birla, and the former coal secretary, Prakash Chandra Parakh, in the allotment of a coal block in Orissa, that the plot took definite form. The Central Bureau of Investigation is being pressured to target Parakh because, then, it devalues him as a witness in the overall coal scam, in which he had won laurels as a whistleblower.
But Sonia Gandhi has to take the major portion of the censure for that. She wanted a puppet prime minister who would make way for Rahul Gandhi whenever the scion agreed to shoulder responsibility. There is also no evidence that the Nehru-Gandhis were pained and stung to action by the government’s corrupt and venal image. To boot, there is Vadragate in the family drawing-room, an elephant painted red. Going after Manmohan Singh selectively would bring the whole rotten edifice crumbling down.
In Modi’s mass gatherings across the country, it is important to keep this sentiment and wisdom in mind. The Bharatiya Janata Party’s Uttar Pradesh and Bihar units, for example, would want to make a grand spectacle of Modi’s rallies, but grandiosity extorts a price. Not everyone who invests in Modi does so out of craving for good and honest governance and to rid the country of corruption and venality. Can Modi redeem those IOUs when he comes to power?
Abhijit
BRFite
Posts: 530
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Bay Area - US

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Abhijit »

I began this evangelizing journey a while ago. I started writing about this in my blog. on't want to pitch for my blog here but I think the would-be 'evangelists' may find good ammunition in the series of posts I made. TIFWIW
A dialog about Narendra Modi


Ever since Shri. Narendra Modi has been in the limelight as the possible BJP choice for the Prime Minister of India (mainly after his celebrated SRCC speech), there has been a slew of discussions in the social media. Facebook pages dedicated to Narendra Modi, as well as those denouncing him for all kinds of heinous crimes against humanity have sprung up with furious proponents of both the views waging Facebook and Twitter wars. The Indian mainstream media (MSM) has mostly vilified Narendra Modi for over a decade and continues to do so with gusto even today. I have been an avid reader of such exchanges and have participated in a few as a committed Modi-supporter. What follows is a fictional account of a dialog/debate between me and a fictional anti-Modi person, I’ll call him Mr. Manish Shukla. I have combined most of the talking points used by various anti-Modi persons in my various interactions on the social media to equip my fictional Mr. Manish Shukla with all the possible arrows in his anti-Modi quiver. I have also used what little material I could find in defense of Narendra Modi on the net to equip myself with counter-arguments. (Special thanks to Ms. Madhu Kishwar, whose tour de force articles published as a series called Modinama helped in most of my counter-arguments)

Before I dive into my purported debate with my fictitious Mr. Manish Shukla, I must take a few moments to delineate the kind of audience I wish to reach through my series of dialogs. I have studied the virulent anti-Modi brigade and their tactics, arguments and shibboleths closely and have reached the following observations:

There are broadly two categories of Modi-haters viz. ‘Professional’ Modi-haters and, for want of a better term, ‘amateur’ Modi-haters. Professional Modi-haters can be divided into two sub-categories again. Politicians and non-politicians. How do I define a ‘professional’ Modi-hater ? Any person, organization or entity that stands to benefit monetarily by spewing venom against Modi is a ‘professional’ Modi-hater . It is obvious that the Congress or UPA politicians have a vested interest in denigrating Modi. There are hundreds of UPA MPs, hundreds of MLAs per state, hundreds of thousands of corporators and local body politicians (such as nagar sewaks, sarpanches and so on). If you have travelled to any town or city at any time of the year, you would see a surfeit of posters of varying sizes thoroughly spoiling the already dreadful urban landscape. These posters variously congratulate the local MLA’s or MPs or sundry other politicians for their birthdays or any other mundane ‘achievements’. These posters are erected by millions of hangers-on that pass off as ‘karyakartas’ or volunteers. Each and every person that belongs to this entourage of any UPA politician in this gigantic network of patronage has a ‘professional’ interest in denigrating Modi. The patronage ranges from pocket-money doled out during the election cycle by the UPA (that pays for the upkeep of these so-called volunteers) to the share of the loot of the public exchequer (in other words the scam and corruption scandal money) that gets passed on to even the lowliest of these hangers-on. When a Congress politician is involved in scams of hundreds or thousands of crores, he doesn’t get to keep all the money. He has to distribute a sizeable chunk of the money to these millions of hangers-on who stake their claim on a share of this loot by erecting his posters on his birthday. (To be fair, the NDA constituents also have a similar entourage of hangers-on and undoubtedly the share of public exchequer that the BJP-politicians manage to loot is also passed on to their thousands of ‘followers’. But the scale and magnitude of BJP corruption is minuscule compared to the Congress corruption over the last decade. If you do not agree to this fact then you need not read this piece any further; because no amount of logic or facts would dissuade you from the ivory tower that you have ensconced yourself into.) Hence, any UPA-associated politician or his lieutenants all the way down to the lowliest foot-soldier in this super-gigantic patronage machine has a vested interest in the defeat of Modi in particular and BJP in general. I am willing to venture an opinion that a sizeable minority of these patronage-receivers may internally be well-disposed towards Modi but their bread and butter is directly dependent on at least an outwardly bellicose stance towards Modi. I DO NOT wish to engage in a debate with any of these ‘professional’ politicians or wannabe politicians (in Hindi, they are called the ‘chamchas’ of the various ‘netas’). That is because opposing Modi militantly is a ‘rozi-roti’ issue for them. No amount of facts, logic or sane arguments is going to change the PAID opinion of these millions of UPA-supporters.

Now let’s look at the professional Modi-haters that are not politicians. Who are they? They are the media people – the TV anchors, the ‘journalists’, the columnists, the editors, the bloggers and so on. There is a veritable army of these media people who are engaged in Modi-bashing on a daily basis. I submit that they too are ‘professional’ Modi-haters whose salaries, perks and livelihood are dependent on maintaining a constant, implacable opposition to Modi and anything and everything he represents. These people are ostensibly impartial but in reality they are the worst shills for their respective media owner’s personal agendas. The same poisonous patronage gravy train that compels the politicians’ chamchas to take up the cudgels on behalf of their masters compels these worthies to do the same but with a staggeringly disproportionate effect. Most of the prevailing vicious anti-Modi atmosphere found in the urban, educated, English-speaking conclaves can be attributed directly to the last 10+ years of relentless partisan propaganda war waged by these faux opinion-makers. I DO NOT wish to engage these worthies either in a reasoned debate about Modi. Again, this is because no amount of logic, facts and reasoned arguments will ever sway this set of people whose pocketbooks and lifestyles depend on prosecuting a virulent anti-Modi agenda.

I wish to present my case to the rest of the Modi-haters whose livelihood doesn’t depend on irrationally or implacably remaining opposed to Modi. There are millions and millions of these people who have been constantly subjected to a barrage of the most despicably vicious, venomous and outright false propaganda by the ‘professional’ Modi-haters and unfortunately these millions of non-professional Modi-haters have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. As of today, the Manish Shuklas of this world are as implacably opposed to Narendra Modi as the people whose knavery in the media has caused this irrational hatred that Mr. Shukla holds against Narendra Modi. But there is a huge difference. For the ‘amateur’ Modi-haters (like Mr. Manish Shukla) it is not a matter of ‘rozi-roti’. Most of them are opposed to Modi because they genuinely believe most of the media-bilge that they have been fed. But if Mr. Manish Shukla, as a result of this reasoned, fact-based debate turns around and stops hating Modi, or, God Forbid, even becomes a Modi-supporter, he is not going to lose his job or find his income affected by this change of heart. Therein lies the basis of my attempt to hold a reasoned, logical and fact-based dialog with the Manish Shuklas of this world.

Why am I doing this? Well, there are several reasons. First and foremost, after a careful research spanning several years, hundreds of articles, programs, opinions and similar debates, I have reached a conclusion that Mr. Narendra Modi represents the best possible alternative to the horrendous mis-governance and systematic and colossal loot of the nation’s wealth being done by the UPA. I will lay out my case against the Congress in a later piece. The second and more important reason is that I believe that the Manish Shuklas of the world are smart, educated and intelligent and above all, they are fair and balanced in their approach to making their political opinions. They may have been under the influence of 10+ years of relentless anti-Modi propaganda of the most sophisticated nature but the Manish Shuklas are also capable of indulging in a reasoned debate and a fair evaluation of the available evidence to judge Modi on the basis of a logical, factual and impartial standard without being clouded by opinions. Opinions are like ***holes – everybody has one. Even the Sagarikas and Barkhas and Rajdeeps of the world have opinions. What they do not have and abhor and fear are facts. I will base my case on facts rather than opinions.

I know that it is more than a Herculean task. The airwaves and the newsprint have been clogged with mostly vituperation, unfounded allegations and outright lies against Modi for over 10 years – a truly poisonous propaganda machine that the Nazi propaganda maestro Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of. I would also be up against the cognitive dissonance of a large number of Manish Shuklas of the world. Cognitive dissonance is a psychological inability to discard or disown a dearly held notion or opinion even after it is proven wrong. But if through this exercise I am able to at least inform if not persuade even a few among the millions of ‘amateur’ Modi-haters then I would consider it a time well-spent.

India is passing through one of the darkest periods in its history post-independence and most of the blame for this abjectly sordid state of the nation can be laid squarely at the feet of the current Congress dispensation. It is the duty of every well-wisher of India to participate in the upcoming ‘Mahabharat’ of elections in any way he/she can. This is my insignificant contribution to this endeavor. I am convinced that BJP in general and Narendra Modi in particular is on the side of Dharma in this epic battle. Only time will tell whether this election turns out to be the ‘kurukshetra’ of the corrupt Congress regime or it will be another round in the infamous game of dice that the Pandavas lost to the skullduggery of the ‘adharmic’ side.
Abhijit
BRFite
Posts: 530
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Bay Area - US

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Abhijit »

Dialog 1: Modi and the 2002 riots


With that lengthy ‘purvapeethika’ (background) out of the way, let’s begin the actual dialog with an ‘amateur’ Modi-hater, our fictitious Mr. Manish Shukla. As expected, Shuklaji right away began with the most controversial and most beaten-to-death-by-paid-media accusation against Modi.

MS: Narendra Modi is responsible for the death of 2000 innocent Gujarati Muslims in the 2002 riots. His administration was complicit in the riots that killed 2000 Muslims in Gujarat. I have heard some TV anchors say that Modi was personally involved in instigating the crowds. A hundred NGOs have filed complaints against him. If you support Modi then it means that you are anti-Muslim.

Me: Mr. Shukla, as I promised at the outset, I will rely only on facts in making my case. If you had confined your assertions to what you considered as ‘facts’ then it would have been easier for me to pinpoint the gross inaccuracies in your statements. But as expected, you have mixed your versions of facts, which are wrong, with your own conjectures, a vast amount of hearsay and also leaps of logic. You have reached an absurd conclusion that anybody who supports Modi, is anti-Muslim. But let me start the rebuttal with the facts first.

1. On Feb 27th, 2002, 57 Hindu kar-sevaks, returning from Ayodhya, were burnt alive in a train at Godhra station. At that time, India and Pakistan were engaged in an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation following the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament. Mr. Modi had been anointed the Chief Minister of Gujarat for a mere 5 months with no prior administrative experience.

2. As soon as the Godhra incident was reported, the situation became tense all over Gujarat and Modi immediately visited Godhra by 4 pm on the same day. Modi made an appeal for calm and implored the people of Gujarat to maintain peace and not to resort to violence.

3. An immediate request for an army deployment was made to the Home Ministry of India and due to the ongoing Operation Parakram, army units had to be airlifted from other states to be deployed in various cities of Gujarat.

4. The entire law enforcement machinery was immediately activated and deployed at various sensitive spots all over the state. Large scale preventive arrests were made each day from Feb 27, through March 3rd. Overall hundreds of Hindus and dozens of Muslims were arrested as preventive measure. Curfew was imposed in hundreds of localities.

5. Gujarat Government made requests for additional police and other law enforcement personnel to three neighboring states Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. All three state govts were headed by Congress CMs. Digvijay Singh (yes, the same moron who blamed Hindus for terror while giving Pakistan a clean chit), the then CM of MP declined the request. Ashok Gehlot, the Congress CM of Rajasthan similarly declined the request. Vilasrao Deshmukh of MH did send a few police forces and they were promptly deployed in various parts of the state.

6. The rioting started chiefly on March 1st and continued till March 3rd. There were numerous incidents of police firing in which hundreds of Hindus died. Overall the death toll was 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus died in the period. Most of the Hindu casualties were from police firing.

7. Throughout the period, Modi made several statements, each appealing for calm and peace. He intervened personally in many cases where Hindu mobs had threatened certain Muslim localities and sent timely reinforcements to save hundreds of Muslim lives. Click here for details of Modi's words and actions during those fateful days

From the above (each and every statement made above has been corroborated against various independent sources of information) it is very clear that:

I. At no point did Modi ever exhort the Hindus to resort to violence. He DID NOT condone violence and did everything in his power to bring the situation under control.
II. Modi did not make a single statement to exacerbate the situation. In fact every statement made by him appealed for calm and peace. He did not rest on mere words but actively followed them up by deploying all possible anti-violence personnel and measures, including the armed forces.
III. The administration did its best to control the situation and DID NOT tie the hands of the law enforcement personnel as can be seen from the number of Hindus killed in police firing.
IV. A large number of Hindus were also arrested as preventive measure all over the state.

So your first assertion that Modi or his administration is responsible for the death of 2000 Muslims is WRONG on almost all counts. Having said that, the fact remains that over 1000 people were killed in the state as a result of the rioting. And it is true that Modi was the administrative head of the state. But NO ONE, even the most adept administrator could have prevented the large scale backlash of Hindus after such a heinous act of terror as Godhra. Does it mean that I (or Modi or his supporters) condone the violence? ABSOLUTELY NOT. But it is a wild leap of logic to BLAME the person who tried to do everything in his power to mitigate the horrendously explosive situation that he was presented with. And it is an outright LIE that he actively abetted the massacre.

If you do not take my word for it, then check the verdict handed by the Special Investigative Team (SIT), constituted by the Supreme Court of India, headed by Mr. K R Raghavan (ex-Chief of CBI). The SIT was actively monitored by the Supreme Court and had access to all the documents, witnesses and evidence. And the SIT gave a clean chit to Modi. Justice Nanavati commission also gave a clean chit to Modi and his administration. The very basic fact is that Congress and the assorted NGOs that have been baying for Modi’s blood for over a decade have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that points towards a complicity in the carnage of 2002.

Let me inform you of some more facts:

- The 2002 riots in Gujarat were by no means the largest riots. Gujarat had been an extremely communally polarized state since the independence. There have been hundreds of small riots and at least a dozen large riots that claimed the lives of hundreds to thousands of mainly Muslims. These riots went on for weeks and months with the vicious cycle of communal killing repeating itself until both the parties were exhausted. EACH AND EVERY RIOT PRIOR TO THE 2002 WAS UNDER THE AUSPICES OF A CONGRESS CHIEF MINISTER AND A CONGRESS GOVERNMENT AT THE CENTER. Not even a single CM or minister from the Congress stable has been subjected to even an inquiry, much less the targeted media lynching unleashed on Modi. If you resort to hyperboles that Modi has the blood of hundreds of Muslims on his hand, then the CONGRESS HAS THE BLOOD OF THOUSANDS OF MUSLIMS ON ITS HANDS. Again, this does not absolve Modi if he had a hand in instigating the violence. But as I showed before, there is absolutely no indication, much less evidence, to show that Modi had a hand in instigating the violence. Each and every action and utterance of Modi has been towards stopping the violence with everything at his disposal.

- The 2002 riots have been followed by an astounding period of over 10 years of complete calm with ZERO communal disturbances in the state. This is the ONLY and the longest period of a riot-free existence for the Muslims of Gujarat. And guess what, the Muslims of Gujarat have overwhelmingly reposed their faith in their chief minister by electing him a third time despite crores of rupees spent by the Congress in trying to woo them away by constantly lying about Modi’s so-called anti-Muslim agenda.

- The aftermath of the 2002 riots also witnessed the first time when a large number of the riot-related cases were successfully prosecuted and exemplary punishments meted out to a large number of criminals. And this includes a large number of Hindus from the VHP and other assorted organizations. It included Maya Kodnani, a former minister from Gujarat. Can you name a single major politician convicted for riots from the Congress-ruled states? Everybody knows what happened with the 1984 anti-Sikh riots in Delhi and surrounding areas. Well-known Congress politicians have not even been prosecuted while there are clear evidences of their direct involvement in the killings of hundreds of Sikhs.

So in summary, it is completely wrong to say that Modi or his administration is responsible for the 2002 riots. It is an outright lie to say that Modi aided and abetted the riots by instigating the Hindus. And it is absurd to claim that Modi-supporters like me are anti-Muslim.

MS: I still don’t buy it. Everybody knows the state of justice in India. You can buy your justice for the right price. How can I believe the SIT acted impartially in exonerating Modi?

Me: Shuklaji, if you are not prepared to trust the highest court of law of India then there is nothing that can be done. I have already conceded that the riots and the loss of life as an extremely regrettable fact. But if you simply hold a kangaroo court in the media and do not go by the weight of the evidence, then you are simply indulging in a spurious exercise. If there is any evidence to the contrary, please bring it to my notice. Otherwise, your assertions are nothing but opinions, not supported by facts. And as I mentioned before, I cannot change people’s opinions if they are not willing to accept the facts. And we are just getting started. I know that we have a lot more to discuss. All I wish to do is to present the facts as they are verified by the authorities but deliberately ignored or suppressed by the anti-Modi brigade. You are still free to hold on to your opinion if you insist on doing it in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
Abhijit
BRFite
Posts: 530
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Bay Area - US

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Abhijit »

Dialog 2: Modi and the 2002 riots Part II


MS: if Modi sanctioned it, do you think he'd have issued a written executive order? Are you kidding me? Just because SIT didn't find any "evidence" he sanctioned it doesn't mean ANYTHING in Indian politics and judicial system….

Besides, it seems the modi supporters also fall in two categories - 1> Those who implicitly agree that he played a role, but are willing to neglect it due to his other positive records in Gujarat. This category now hides behind SIT ruling because the charges couldn't be "proved" and hence claim he's innocent despite them knowing deep down inside what happened there…

And no many Modi opponents like me don't believe just because you support him, you're anti-Muslim. That has nothing to do with what he didn't do to prevent what happened. It's more about what he didn't do rather than what he probably did as a whisper to his lieutenants. If you recall, during 83 Sikh riots in Delhi, Bal Thackrey is famously known to assure some of the Sikh leaders that he wouldn't let that happen in Mumbai, and he made sure of that. Modi was in same position here and didn't do squat other than ordering some help on paper. If your argument is "only 790 Muslims were killed and that's nothing compared to other riots", then you're just not getting the point or are willfully ignoring that record. Same is true with the ridiculous claim that some idiot tried to claim the the train incident was an accident. Yes, he was an idiot, but proving someone else an idiot is not a defense for Modi.

Me: OK. First things first. My purpose behind this dialog is to firstly lay out the facts that are recorded officially, which, in my opinion, are strong enough to make my case for Modi. It is also to lay out all the opinions that have been made by the so-called ‘amateur’ Modi-haters and address each and every one of them so that it can serve the purpose of at least informing them of the other side of the debate. There are millions of Manish Shuklas out there and several differing shades of opinions ranging from ‘If you like Modi you must be a Muslim-hater’ ( I will call them the ‘irrational’ Modi-haters) to the more balanced ones (like my friend Jiten) such as ‘Modi opponents like me don't believe just because you support him, you're anti-Muslim. That has nothing to do with what he didn't do to prevent what happened. It's more about what he didn't do rather than what he probably did as a whisper to his lieutenants’ (I will call them ‘rational’ Modi-haters). I don’t know the proportion of irrational to rational Modi-haters but if you have spent any time or effort in observing the discourse in the Indian media and social media, you KNOW that there is a vast number of ‘irrational’ Modi-hatred out there – people willing to accuse ME (and any other Modi-supporters) of Muslim-hatred just because I/we support Modi.

[In fact the entire media strategy of Congress is to foment this guilt complex among ordinary Hindus so that we would rather re-elect a horrendously corrupt, divisive and dynastic Congress than vote for Modi and be considered as anti-Muslim. My Modi-hating friends would rather see the India being subjected to another 5 years of rape by the Congress goons than allow their American friends to wag their fingers at them and make them ashamed. They don’t mind being ashamed for a hobbled, economically devastated India, thanks to another 5 years of Congress mis-rule, but oh, they are so alarmed at the prospect of being called citizens of Modi-nation. Even though they haven’t taken the basic courtesy to verify whether the charges against Modi are true or not. Sorry, yours truly is not taking this bait and not falling for this Goebbelsian propaganda. But I will expand on this particular aspect of Congress strategy later.]

So the first shibboleth that I want to destroy is that just because I support Modi, I must be anti-Muslim. At least (this particular) Mr. Manish Shukla does not believe so. And I am thankful for that. But he then goes ahead and makes a slightly less egregious insinuation. Shuklaji says, “Modi-supporters fall into a single category. Those who implicitly agree that he played a role, but are willing to neglect it due to his other positive records in Gujarat. This category now hides behind SIT ruling because the charges couldn't be "proved" and hence claim he's innocent despite them knowing deep down inside what happened there”. Wow! What an amazing deduction. And how far is this blatant insinuation (that every Modi-supporter KNOWS that Modi is GUILTY but is willing to overlook it due to the great developmental strides in Gujarat) from taking the next step and just outright accusing us Modi-supporters of being Muslim-haters? A very slippery slope and a very fine distinction indeed.
Shuklaji, in your cognitive dissonance, you are not even WILLING to countenance the possibility that Modi is indeed NOT GUILTY. On one hand you pompously aver that you do not consider Modi-supporters to be automatic Muslim-haters but on the other hand you glibly accuse us of being hypocrites because we do not share your ill-arrived-at opinion that Modi IS GUILTY. Where is the fairness that I assumed when I began this dialog?

You are getting into a Sherlock Holmsian deduction game. The known facts are that,

1. A thousand people, including 750+ Muslims were killed in riots
2. Modi was the chief minister of the state
3. Modi is Hindu and espouses Hindu causes and is branded as ‘anti-secular’ by the designated agents of deciding who is secular in India

Ergo, he must have been complicit in the Muslim-killings. And since there is no proof that he actually had any complicity, you nonchalantly denigrate the SIT constituted by the Supreme Court as incompetent or motivated or both.

Well, no cigar for you Mr. Holmes. There is no proof against Modi because he is NOT GUILTY. And the highest court of the land says so. You may think that Indian Supreme Court is full of corrupt jokers (as if American Supreme court with its Thomases and Scalias and Alitos are a paragon of objective and impartial jurisprudence) but unless and until proven otherwise, the SIT judgment stands and it completely vindicates Modi.

Now I will take up the next bit of spacious inferential reasoning by you. That of 1984 (not 1983) anti-Sikh riots and the alleged role of Bal Thakaray in shielding the Sikhs of Mumbai from possible retaliation. Firstly, you must understand (and not just spout) the political realities of India, Gujarat and Mumbai. In 1984, 2002 and today. In 1984 and pretty much even until recently, Bal Thakaray (BT)/Shiv Sena was the undisputed king of Mumbai. BT had an iron grip on the Shiv Sena cadres and if he didn’t give a go-ahead, not even one Shiv Sainik would dare to as much as cast an eye on anyone in Mumbai. If BT did indeed assure the Sikhs of his protection and their lives were spared (all this is just hearsay as you have agreed) then my million thanks to BT. But in 1984 Shiv Sena and Congress were not exactly buddies joined at the hips. In fact the complete lack of anti-Sikh riots in Mumbai simply points towards a grisly Congress pogrom of anti-Sikh riots in Delhi. Rajiv Gandhi even made an absolutely callous statement when he was asked about the murder of Sikhs. He famously invoked the big tree falling and the ground shaking analogy (look it up in case you don’t know about it).

In 2002, Modi was a mere transplant into Gujarat politics. He had been anointed the CM for less than 5 months (he was a transplant from national executives of BJP) and had his hands full dealing with the devastating earthquake that happened in January 2001. He had no control over the VHP and Bajrang Dal cadres. It is simply erroneous and even disingenuous to claim that Modi could have prevented the bloodbath of riots by simply flicking a magic wand and he callously refused to do so. It is even more preposterous to compare his grip on VHP, Bajrang cadres to that of BT’s iron grip on Shiv Sainiks. If you study the actual convictions and sentences meted out post 2002 riots, most of the culprits were VHP/Bajrang cadres. Until recently the name of NaMo generated as much anger among VHP cadres as it did among the Congress cadres. Also you need to understand the realities of Gujarat and its Muslim population. There are over 6 million Muslims spread all over Gujarat. In the top cities of Gujarat (Ahmedabad, Surat, Vadodara, Bharuch etc.) there are 100,000 plus Muslims, spread over hundreds of localities. As against this vast and spread-out population, there were only 6000 serving police personnel in entire Gujarat. It was physically impossible to protect each and every locality unless hundred thousand plus personnel were requisitioned and deployed. This COULD NOT BE DONE in just a few hours or even a couple of days. (remember that the army was fully deployed in Operation Parakram and the neighboring state CM’s from Congress simply declined to provide additional police resources). You may continue to hold your unresearched, knee-jerk opinions about the complicity of Modi because it is difficult to disown one’s opinions even in face of overwhelming contrary evidence (this is called cognitive dissonance). But that doesn’t make your opinions right.
Lastly I will actually provide a circumstantial, inferential reasoning of my own (I know that I promised to stick to the facts but when the accusations go into the la-la-land of unsubstantiated flights of fancy, one needs to change one’s approach) that will not only absolve Modi of any complicity, but will actually buttress my contention that Modi actively worked his damnedest to bring the riots under control as soon as possible and with God’s grace, succeeded in it.

Here is a partial list of major communal riots in Gujarat prior to 2002 and their duration, the loss of lives and the number of days before the army was called in. In case you are not aware, EACH AND EVERY RIOT IN THE WHOLE OF INDIA prior to 2002 (and mostly since 2002 also) was under the auspices of a Congress Government – at the state level as well as the central level.

1969 (Ahmedabad+) 5000+ (*) Several Months Army on day 6
1982 (Surat) 30+ 10 months not immediately
1985 (Ahmedabad) 300+ several months not immediately
1986 (Ahmedabad) 50+ At least a month not immediately
1990 (Gujarat) 220+ 9 months Not known
1991 (Gujarat) 30+ 3 months not known
1992 (Ahmedabad+) 40+ at least a month not known
1999 (Surat) 10+ < a month army not called in
(The following is a description of the riot-prone nature of Gujarat in the words of Zafar Sareshwala:


The worst riot in post partition India happened in 1969 in Ahmedabad; more than 5000 Muslims were killed in that massacre. But because there was no 24x7 media, no one outside got to know because those earlier riots were not documented. It was a small incident involving a cow but it led to a shocking outburst. At that time, Gujarat was under the Congress Party’s Hitendrabhai Desai’s regime while Indira Gandhi was in power at the Centre. During the 1969 riots our office, factory, everything was burnt down. There is an area called “Kalupur which is the heart of Muslims neighbourhoods. In that locality, the police station is situated on Relief Road. Right opposite that police station, there is a mosque and several Muslim shops. That mosque and the shops were burnt down. When Mrs Indira Gandhi visited the riot affected area, she visited that spot. I still remember, I was 5 years old, my grandfather was present when Indira Gandhi got down from her car and said, ‘Here is a police station, and 40 metres away, a mosque and Muslim shops are set on fire. She got down from her car, called her sentries and told them to measure the distance. How on earth is it possible that right opposite the police station Muslim shops were burnt? In the 1969 riots Muslims were systematically massacred.

“Then there was another major riot in 1985 preceded by several smaller ones. It went on for months on end. Again my factory was set on fire as also our house. In 1985 Madhavji Solanki of Congress Party was in power in Gujarat and Rajiv Gandhi at the Centre. Between 1985 and 2002, people came to expect that after every 2-3 months there would inevitably be a riot. There was curfew for 200 days. During the 1987 riots also Amar Singh Chaudhury of the Congress party was the CM. This was followed by the 1990 riot. At that time again Congress Party’s Chimanbhai Patel was the Chief Minister. Again our factory was burnt down. In 1992 also it was burnt, Chimanbhai Patel was the Chief Minister even at that time.

“Every Dalit riot was converted into an anti-Muslim riot whether in 1981 or in 1985. In every riot, our office and factory was burnt down and we were subjected to great indignities because the police would not even accept our F.I.R. In those days a Muslim could never get an FIR registered. After that we were humiliated by the insurance company. I remember in 1992, my business was almost in ‘full bloom’. But our entire factory was reduced to ashes. We had an insurance of Rs 1.5 crores in 1998.The insurance company gave us a cheque for Rs.9 lakh. Has anyone documented what happens to the Muslim establishments that are burnt down? Was every insurance company run by Narendra Modi? )

It should be clear from the above partial list and Mr. Sareshwala’s description that even a small inclident could spark riots in Gujarat and had the potential to take hundreds of lives and the frenzy of violence would go on for months. With the gruesome murder of 58 Hindus in Godhra, the situation could have easily gone to 10000+ lives and months and months of a vicious cycle of violence. It was only Modi’s dedicated and efficient efforts that allowed the situation to be under control in 3 days and with a loss of only 1000+ lives.

It is easy to pontificate sitting in an armchair that Modi should have saved each and every life lost to the riots. The reality is a little more complicated than that.
Abhijit
BRFite
Posts: 530
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Bay Area - US

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Abhijit »

Dialog 3: Modi and Secularism


MS1: Do you seriously believe that BJP has a better record (of commitment to the true secular nature of India, demonstrated by a track record) compared to Congress.

MS2: (Why) a Modi led platform is not susceptible to fractured nation along religion/caste lines. This is a genuine worry for minorities.

Me: We are talking of multiple aspects of Indian Union here. 1) Who is (more) secular, Modi/BJP or Congress? 2) Is Modi-brand of secularism (whatever it may be) susceptible to a fracturing of the nation a la 1947? To these two questions raised by my esteemed colleagues, I would add my third question: Is Modi/BJP secularism (or lack of it, as most of the professional Modi-haters are at constant pains to point out without any basis) the greatest and the gravest threat to the well-being of the nation as opposed to the horrendous and disastrous mis-governance offered by Congress/UPA? But before we delve into the discussion of these questions, a primer on ‘secularism’ itself is in order.

What is secularism in the Indian context?

The word ‘secular’ is one of the most misused and misunderstood words in the Indian polity today. The word ‘secular’ did not appear at all in the constitution of India that was drafted by Dr. Ambedkar (one of the finest minds and a truly great leader of the dalits. A true son of Mother India) and adopted on January 26, 1950. The word did not appear because in spite of its absence, the Indian Constitution was fairly secular and had a clear pathway suggested for making it fully secular. The word was added as part of the 42nd amendment (by Indira Gandhi during the infamous emergency) to the preamble of the constitution. The constitution itself does not define the word nor does it provide a guideline as to how it relates to those articles or parts of the constitution that may have a bearing on the possible meaning of the word or vice versa. This has left the field open to anybody and everybody to interpret/misuse the word in any way he/she pleases.

Who is 'secularest' of them all?

Thus Congress defines itself as the paragon of ‘secularism’. The communists claim that communism, by definition, is secular. The regional, caste-based parties such as SP, BSP, JD, RJD, DMK claim to be secular while being shamelessly caste-ist. Only thing that all these so-called uber-secular parties agree on is that they claim that BJP is NOT secular. These non-BJP (and hence, congenitally secular) parties then shamelessly have roti-beti relationships with unabashedly non-secular parties such as MIM (Hyderabad, Owaisi), various branches of jamat-e-Islami and so on. Can you find a better example of hypocrisy?

Let’s take a closer look at the record of the so-called ‘secular’ Congress. This, in itself, can be a series of articles if I have to mention even moderately anti-secular activities of Congress while donning the veil of secularism (I have avoided the word ‘burkha’ and substituted it with a more ‘secular’ ‘veil’). So I will restrict myself to only some of the pivotal moments when Congress murdered the secularism while claiming to be uber-secular.


Shah Bano case: The Shah Bano case (1985 SCR (3) 844) was a controversial maintenance lawsuit in India, in which Shah Bano, a 62-year-old Muslim, daughter of a police constable[1] and mother of five from Indore, Madhya Pradesh, was divorced by her husband in 1978 but even after winning the case at the Supreme court of India was subsequently denied alimony because the Indian Parliament reversed the judgment under pressure of Islamic orthodoxy.[2][3][4][5][6] The judgment in favour of the woman in this case evoked criticisms[7][8][9] among Muslims some of whom cited Qur'an to show that the judgment was in conflict with Islamic law.[8] It triggered controversy about the extent of having different civil codes for different religions, especially for Muslims in India.[2][10] This case caused the [congress] government, with its absolute majority, to pass the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Act, 1986 which diluted the judgment of the Supreme Court and, in reality (reference missing), denied even utterly destitute Muslim divorcées the right to alimony from their former husbands.



So the Congress Govt of Rajiv Gandhi, the paragon of secularism, murdered the secularism in broad daylight and overturned a Supreme Court judgment, by passing a blatantly anti- Muslim-women law using its massive parliamentary majority (which the ‘grateful’ Indian electorate had bestowed upon the prodigal son of a murdered mother). This law adversely affected only the Indian Muslim women, one of the weakest electoral blocks who could be taken advantage of at will. Jai Ho to Congress Secularism!

2. Congress remains steadfastly opposed to the implementation of a uniform civil code. This means that in India, if you are a Muslim, you get a separate set of laws with respect to civil matters (such as marriage, divorce, inheritance etc.). Nobody has dared to question if these laws provide equal protection of law (a bedrock principle of most of the democratic constitutions all over the world) to Muslim women (obviously they don’t. But hey, Muslim women don’t stop voting for Congress anyway so why bother about the small matter of the original intent of the framers of the constitution? After all India is India, not America, right?)

3. Congress, in order to fortify its minority voting base, is seriously contemplating introducing reservations based on religion. That would make it hugely ‘secular’ I guess.

4. Congress has ruled India for most of its post-independence existence (barring a few years of Janata Party, a few years of other jokers such as IK Gujaral, Deve Gowda, VP Singh etc, and one glorious ‘anti-secular’ BJP stint of about 5 years). In spite of this, Muslims have remained one of the most backward communities. Is BJP/Modi responsible for the abject state of minorities in India?

5. But the crowning glory of Congress’ secularism is the record of its past and present governments in terms of the number of riots and the number of minority lives lost. Except for the Gujarat 2002 riots, EACH AND EVERY COMMUNAL RIOT ALL OVER INDIA in the past and even after 2002 has been under the watch of a Congress-ruled state and under the ever secularly watchful Congress central government. Starting from JL Nehru then Indira, then Rajiv and then Manmohan Singh have the blood of HUDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MUSLIMS and THOUSANDS OF SIKHS. What could be any greater achievement for a ‘secular’ party?


In spite of this utterly horrific record on secularism, why does the Congress get to wear the crown of being a secular party?

Congress defines secularism in terms of its anti-majority actions and words. Since the days of JL Nehru, for reasons unfathomable, it has always defined a pursuit of secularism by assiduously being anti-Hindu in words, actions and spirit. It is as if secularism, as perceived by Congress, is a zero-sum game. It is as if you cannot be secular if you are not rabidly anti-Hindu. Notice some of the recent utterances by various Congress politicians. Rahul Gandhi, the immature scion of the Gandhi dynasty, wrote to the American envoy that he doesn’t fear the Lashkar e Taiyaba (LeT) or Jaish e Muhammad (JeM) as security threats to India (despite the fact that each and every terrorist attack on India soil and abroad has been linked back to LeT and JeM and other alphabet soup of Islamic terrorists sponsored by Pakistan. Rahul Gandhi fears the threat of terrorism from Hindus! Wow! And he runs to maibaap American Viceroy to air his grievances! Maybe he doesn’t know that on August 15th, 1947 India actually gained independence. I guess that little fact escaped from his high-priced St. Stephens education.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh nonchalantly declares that the minorities in India have the first claim on the resources of the nation. Can the word secularism get any more grotesquely distorted than this?

Congress is not secular. It is, first and foremost, anti-Hindu. Then it is anti-Sikh, having murdered thousands of Sikhs in the 1984 riots. Then it is anti-Muslim by virtue of having presided over the continuous decline in the living standards of Muslims for over 6 decades. It may don the garb of secularism but it propagates the most virulent brand of anti-secularism with its words, actions and policies.

Modi and Secularism

Now let’s come to the other side of the coin. Is Modi secular? How do you measure the ‘secularism’ of a person or an entity? What yardsticks do you use? How about an equitable distribution of resources regardless of caste, religion or any other identity? How about an equal and impartial administration of justice regardless of caste, religion or any other identity? How about proclaiming equality of all citizens in words and deeds, proven by a track record? How about ensuring that no lives are lost to communal riots?

Modi’s Gujarat has had ZERO communal incidents after 2002. I would like to draw your attention to the Akshardham terrorist attack that happened in Sept 2002. In spite of over 30 Hindus (including security personnel) killed in this gruesome attack, there was not a single incident of riots in Gujarat. Because by this time Modi had acquired a good grip on the state law enforcement machinery and ensured that no untoward incident would occur. If Modi had been anti-Muslim, it would have been easy for him to let loose another orgy of violence, the provocation was grave enough. But there was not a single incident of retaliatory violence. Why is that not secularism?

Gujarat has had an equitable growth for ALL its citizens, not just the Hindus. Gujarat has seen the largest rise in the average incomes of the largest number of Muslims in the past decade. The amount of zakat contributed by the Gujarati Muslims (a highly correlated indicator of economic prosperity among Muslims. Zakat is the charitable donation that a Muslim is enjoined to give according to the tenets of Islam. Unless the Muslims of Gujarat have experienced one of the largest increases in their incomes in the last decade, how could the amount of zakat have increased?) has increased by leaps and bounds and now accounts for more than half the total zakat collected from all over India. In the last 10 years, Gujarat Govt under Modi has opened the largest number of schools and colleges for Muslim children. It has accorded an equal status to the degrees conferred by the Madrassas. Why is that not secularism?

Modi has always insisted that he represents 6 crore Gujaratis, regardless of caste or religion. Each and every natural calamity that happened in Gujarat after 2002 has had an enviable record of swift and impartial distribution of state help to ALL the affected citizens. Not just the Hindus. It has had an enviable record of providing excellent facilities to Gujaratis regardless of caste or religion. Muslims are some of the most important beneficiaries of the business-friendly policies of the state govt. Why is that not secularism?

And in spite of this, my friends, Mr. Shuklas of the world, have the temerity to question the credentials of Modi in the secular arena? I am at a loss to understand the logic and the thought process that gives rise to this question itself.

Modi has been elected 3 times with increasing majority by Gujarati voters. Some of the seats won by BJP in the last elections have more than 25% Muslim population. It is a documented fact that a large section of Gujarati Muslims have voted for Modi. Do you think these Muslims are not secular? Or do you question the voting process itself? My friend Mr. Shukla (the second one) wonders if Modi as PM will lead to a fracturing of the nation’s unity. It hasn’t fractured Gujarat! On the contrary, Gujarat, including its Muslims, have been taking giant strides towards a path of prosperity. What then is the basis of this irrational fear?

Even the most cynical amateur Modi-haters have reluctantly come round to the view that Modi’s Gujarat development is an outstanding success. But still there is a large majority who are willing to swallow the Congress propaganda that Modi’s governance is ‘not inclusive’. Or that Modi represents something so evil on the ‘secular’ front that all his other achievements mean nothing. And these so-called ‘guardians’ of Indian ‘secularism’ would rather let Congress continue the unprecedented destruction of the nation than ‘risk’ a fractured nation that is surely just round the corner should Modi become the PM.Where is the objectivity in this?
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Agnimitra »

Rudradev wrote:I don't know what it is... I think it is something to do with the Indian impulse to be contrarian or argumentatitve.
...
It's an emotional response, and cannot be countered with straight facts and logic. Maybe the trick with these sorts of people is to play the emotional game back at them... make them angry at what all the Maino-Manmohan government and its potential Third Front allies have done to the country, and how it affects them and their families. [/i]
RD guru, you're absolutely right that this attitude has something to do with the emotional "tone" of the person. Emotional tones are logarithmic in terms of span and therapy. When someone is in an emotional tone below, say, boredom, then such compulsive antagonism makes its appearance. Below that is rage, below that is "snake-in-the-grass" type smarmy 'agreement', below that raw fear, below that grief, below that is apathy, below that is the chankian brilliance of "pretend-to-be-dead is the best form of defence", and below that is physical death.

The mainstream media in India, in its first flush of appalling immaturity, does a good job of creating "buttons" that send viewers into a downward spiral of restimulated negative emotions. One such button they have successfully created is "Modi = graphic pictures of Gujarat riots" that impinge on people's consciousness and find a place in their subconscious. Once this is done, argument or "reasoning" alone is not going to work very well.

I think hand-in-hand with presenting cogent facts, the Hindutvavadis need to create atmospherics that "key-out" these "buttons" that the paid media keeps in restimulation. That means an uptone, festive, optimistic, clear vision - just like any traditional Hindu festival. Key-outs can be accomplished by (a) Education (presenting facts, etc.), (b) Change of environment, (c) Fixing problems currently preoccupying the subject (the economy, etc.).

We need intellectuals to disseminate facts. We need some Bollywood director to plagiarize movies that paint a futuristic India with Hindutva characteristics - envelope minds with a new environment as it were. We need BJP cadres to create a festive atmosphere. And of course we need good governance from all BJP affiliates.

In fact, I sometimes think we can even play down the fact that we should go after the Congress-Marxist-Islamist criminals as a main target. Perhaps make that secondary to a positive vision for inclusive development - this certainly seems to be Modi's own personal keynote, and Hindutva could take a cue from that.

So maybe we need dissemination of more visionary video-clips, photos, designs, bullet-point presentations, tweets, etc. that focus on such visions. More Dholera-type videos. More positive-sounding hashtags about a dream for a new India (to rise after slash-&-burn of Congress swamp).

E.g. - #AdhunikBharat cannot grow from the haphazard decay of Sultate-era muhallas or Colonial-era hubs. Needs more of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ragP8m63g

Your tactic of pushing other buttons is valid only where the person is a card-holding Leftist/Congressi/Islamist. By the dictum, "If you can't convince them, confuse them." So push them down the tone scale so hard that they go into apathy and cease being obstructionist. But most people are not card-holding members, and so the other positive tactic is better for them, and for the nation.
prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2832
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by prahaar »

@Agnimitraji, NaMo is taking a big gambe. An aar-paar-ki-ladaai. Many people have not forgotten the loss of face experienced due to India Shining campaign. Since then, negative campaign has been the hallmark of almost all elections (at national level). In 2004 it was Godhra and in 2009 it was Varun Gandhi + Ram Sene. That has been the template.

NaMo is taking a huge risk with positive campaign, since he knows, with fear mongering, he is up against the masters of that technique. But it is very challenging to get people burdened with daily problems to believe this positive message. At least in my extended family, many feel that NaMo is showing people an mirage.

Probably the best approach is to convince them to take a chance with Modi, since otherwise there is not going to be any change.
Atish
BRFite
Posts: 417
Joined: 07 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Atish »

A large number of people are pigheaded, stupid, add a bunch of other negative things in general. Be very careful of wasting your time on dumb people. Hassan Nisar says the right thing, we should stop glorifying the awaam which to an extent is responsible for its own plight. But talk to the better people but there are many.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Agnimitra »

prahaar wrote:many feel that NaMo is showing people an mirage.

Probably the best approach is to convince them to take a chance with Modi, since otherwise there is not going to be any change.
Yes that disillusionment and inability to trust anyone is characteristic of the lower tones.

No doubt, we have to have a parallel, solid propaganda machine that shows that nothing can be worse than the Congress and its affiliates.

Problem is, the establishment has managed to insert these other apparently non-Congress affiliated snakes into the arena - such as Khujliwal's AAP, etc. Even Lok Satta Party are considered alternatives, where people say "We won't vote Congress, but not BJP either. We will either not vote, or vote for one of these "new" alternatives."

Overall, there's no watertight method. One has to have different vectors of this strategy to influence opinion. All these vectors need to be balanced. On social media, it appears that Hindutva has a reputation of merely being abusive or attacking Congress rats. That can be balanced out by a festive, positive campaign also.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12083
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Vayutuvan »

Atish wrote:A large number of people are pigheaded, stupid, add a bunch of other negative things in general.
They also form the largest vote bank. Preaching to the choir will result in candidates losing deposits.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Rudradev wrote:
vnmshyam wrote: The going is tough.. Here's a transcript of my chat with hima few minutes ago:

Friend: One thing is sure Shyam... no matter however good man Modi is, I won't vote for him nor do I ask others for it. you can blame on my expericences or me... thats decided at least for near future...
Me: Can I ask why?
Friend: easy answer to your question is, I want to be illogical and hold on to my decision..... so no reason can explain you why I have decided like that
Me: give me the difficult answer. I would really like to understand...
Friend: I don't want to... you will try to prove that my difficult reason is illogical or can be changed.... so I am mentioning that I WANT to be illogical(not thinking) and want to hold onto my decision


Sigh!! Going to take a little more effort. Oh! He will come around..

Sent him a link to Modinama. He said that he would read and get back to me as he is going to compare that with something that he read some where.
Vmshyam ji, first of all, I deeply admire your efforts. If Modi becomes PM he will owe it to the grassroots efforts of those like you, who put personal relationships on the line to make people understand why India needs him.

That said, I do not agree with some other posters who think Vmshyamji's gulti colleague is a "psycho" or an aberration or any kind of exception to the rule. In my informal polling, I myself encountered this EXACT same attitude-- to one extent or another-- from people who I otherwise consider sensible and patriotic Indians.

I don't know what it is... I think it is something to do with the Indian impulse to be contrarian or argumentatitve. Some just insisted that Modi is "no better" than others, why vote for him, what is he going to do differently, we have doubts about his governance claims/role in 2002 etc. NO MATTER WHAT I presented as arguments to counter their beliefs. At some stage when they couldn't respond intelligently to my arguments any more, they simply shut down and said "no no, I don't think so" and tried to change the subject.

I hope, of course, that they simply did not want to admit being in the wrong, and that what I told them will work on their minds over time. But I'm not sure. It seems as if many of us Indians just want to be "different" or "individualistic" or "go against the grain" and the tendency gets amplified as the tendency to go towards the grain becomes stronger. So the more popular Modi (or anybody) gets, the more that "supporting Modi" gets identified as something that "the crowd/jantaa" is doing, the more strong the tendency becomes for people to take the position "I will not vote for Modi, simply because I am different from/better than the common jantaa mob."

It's an emotional response, and cannot be countered with straight facts and logic. Maybe the trick with these sorts of people is to play the emotional game back at them... make them angry at what all the Maino-Manmohan government and its potential Third Front allies have done to the country, and how it affects them and their families.
I concur with the above analysis.

Some piskoanalysis from my side as well. Dedicating it to shiv saar! ;-)

I would give two reasons for the above behavior: Macaulayism and Gotravad.

I think the West and their Chamchas in India, the Macaulayite Sepoys, have been successful in doing INCEPTION, planting an idea deep within our psyches that Indians lack broad-mindedness, analytic, moderating and articulation skills and we would never be able to produce the literary richness and philosophical precision available in the West.

The Macaulayite Indian grows up appreciating the intellectual superiority of the Western thinkers and thus of the West. His intellect being an Indian allows him to appreciate their works but it also makes him keenly aware that he may not be able to reproduce it himself due to his lack of articulation skills which he misunderstands as lack of intellect itself.

English is not his mother tongue. Other Indian tongues he knows even less and they may even be insufficient to satisfy his demands of precise articulation, as these languages have not been under continuous development by Bharatiyas, since we jumped on to English since the colonial era and decided to retain it after independence to cater to our desire for modernity and modern vocabulary.

So I think it is the Macaulayite Indian's issues with articulation and awe at Western literary work and perhaps even insufficient knowledge of his own Bharatiya Sanskritic classicism that turns him into a rebel.

He is convinced that Indians are inferior in thinking and thus anything that Indians produce would never meet the Western standards of quality. The West has succeeded in painting us as emotional irrational narrow-minded langurs even in our own eyes, and the "cultured" Macaulayite Indian would want to distance himself from such a bigoted lot.

It is actually his high Indian intellect that makes him to distance himself from the Indian, and even as the intellect is high, it is not high enough to understand such mind games.

The other reason is plain Gotravad which stops the Indian from embracing the rest of India and if the masses love Modi, than his High Gotric identity would force him to distance himself from the wish of the masses.

The more popular Modi becomes the more difficult he would have in convincing the Gotravadis to accept him.

The Gotravadis are of course quite conversant in classical Sanskriti and they use that to negotiate a status of equality with the Whites, the Western elite. To keep this status, Gotravadis try to distance themselves from unwashed masses.

However should an Indian leader force the Westerners to treat India with respect, or they adopt him for show, they would gladly invite the Indian leader to join their ranks and latch on to him. If the Westerners dump him, then the Gotravadi too would distance himself from this Indian leader as their status is joined to that of the West, much like there used to be a fixed exchange rate between the Yuan and the Dollar.

So both the Macaulayite who awes at Western superiority as well as the classical Gotravadi who sees himself as an equal to the West, may not accept Modi. They follow the Western line or the line of their Sepoys here.

The Macaulayite may be waiting for Western approval of Modi and the Gotravadi would be waiting for Modi to surround himself with High Gotric intellectuals whose opinion they respect. However Gotravadis may still have a problem with his OBC Jati, but would try to hide their bias behind morality considerations like 2002.

Just my 2 paise!
prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2832
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by prahaar »

I agree, there is a high degree of anger and a feeling of victim-hood amongst Hindutva-vaadis on SM. The funny thing is that most of this is original and not planned. Smooth, Soft, Pleasant messaging about Hindutva is almost absent.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Agnimitra »

prahaar wrote:I agree, there is a high degree of anger and a feeling of victim-hood amongst Hindutva-vaadis on SM. The funny thing is that most of this is original and not planned. Smooth, Soft, Pleasant messaging about Hindutva is almost absent.
Correct. I'm going to tweet one smooth, soft, pleasant message about Hindutva everyday.
Also RT such messages of a spiritual kind from accounts like those of Aurobindo, of other Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh accounts etc., etc.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12083
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Vayutuvan »

RajeshA ji, it is simply not the "modern vocabulary" - almost all scientific and technical knowledge to build and run large societies is in English (or translated into English from Latin, German, French, Russian, or Japanese - may be I forgot a couple or three more).
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

matrimc wrote:RajeshA ji, it is simply not the "modern vocabulary" - almost all scientific and technical knowledge to build and run large societies is in English (or translated into English from Latin, German, French, Russian, or Japanese - may be I forgot a couple or three more).
French, German, Russian any may be other languages try to find equivalent terminology but often people know English words in parallel.

Giving away control over one's vocabulary to others is a dangerous cultural decision.
Atish
BRFite
Posts: 417
Joined: 07 Jul 2000 11:31
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Atish »

Modi will fail in what we are actually hoping for (provide a strong and effective PMship) , but he will make a dent and inspire others and make a huge difference in the long run. His organization is too far behind in scope power and even sophistication of thought.

I have come to the realization that the awaam has to get wiser and nobler for country to improve. Think about this, if Soniaji was Nigerian and black as coal instead of Italian and white do you think that she would have got anywhere near power? Its of course something i cant prove empirically, but I am convinced not.

Now the avg Chimpanzee and Gorilla tribes have more meritocracy in choosing their leader, they choose the strongest who is able to beat up all the rest but definitely don't pay attention to color of fur. So in a sense India (and thankfully many other human tribes) have much dumber ways of choosing leadership than monkey tribes. (Lower primates also dont have religion as far as we know).

In India meaningless mundane talk of lets all work together and color of blood is one, combined with murderous gangsterism of Jinnah variety has worked best for 100 years. As a general rule the sagacious, wise and can doers were sidelined by the awaam. Consistently they chose Azam Khans over Aslam Khans, and JLNs over Rajajis. Until Raj Thakre was talking about Marathi Rennaissance and considering every community equal nobody gave him time of day. He broke a few taxis and beat up a few Northerners (a new political phrase), and his popularity went soaring.

So yes campaign and do your bit, but choose your targets. Bhains ke aage been mat bajao. And have less sympathy for the more pigheaded chutiya type fellow countrymen.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by brihaspati »

Agnimitra wrote:
prahaar wrote:I agree, there is a high degree of anger and a feeling of victim-hood amongst Hindutva-vaadis on SM. The funny thing is that most of this is original and not planned. Smooth, Soft, Pleasant messaging about Hindutva is almost absent.
Correct. I'm going to tweet one smooth, soft, pleasant message about Hindutva everyday.
Also RT such messages of a spiritual kind from accounts like those of Aurobindo, of other Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh accounts etc., etc.
And we will be playing exactly into the hands of those who want to reconstruct the Hindu as ever-peaceful-ever-tolerant of everything thrown at it. They try to represent the "Hindu" "anger" as a deviation - a dangerous deviation that needs to be crushed. Compared to that, "violent" reaction from the Muslim is always just that - a reaction, but the violence is not unexpected or abnormal - nothing to show shocked reaction at. Violent verbal reaction from an "outraged" muslim is okay - but not from the "hindu".
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Prem »

As the old saying goes, even if we dont want to strike,keep the option of raising the hood , look in the eyes , hiss and threaten to bite their Butt to show the anger means real business.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12083
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Vayutuvan »

RajeshA wrote:French, German, Russian any may be other languages try to find equivalent terminology but often people know English words in parallel.

Giving away control over one's vocabulary to others is a dangerous cultural decision.
At this point we are already too far back. It is almost an impossible task to translate even a few years worth of science/technology leave alone the entirety of the accumulated knowledge into Indian languages even if one limits to just two - Hindi and Tamil).

Just to give a perspective of the enormity of the task: I remember reading in a paper (on some matter related to theorem proving) in 1990 by Alan Perlis (A Turing ward winning computer scientist) that every year approximately 400,000 theorems are proved in mathematical sciences majority without a rigorous proof. That is almost 25 years back. Of course, he must have included all the programs written as well because any correctly working computer program is also a constructive proof.

No, the best way is to for now ride on the wagon but develop parallel vocabulary such that in time original thoughts can be exclusively published in Indian classical languages and their derivatives.
Sushupti
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5198
Joined: 22 Dec 2010 21:24

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sushupti »

One don't see such kind of all round slapping of a Congress representative on NDTV. What's happening to my secular India?

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-r ... -me/295373
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Agnimitra »

brihaspati wrote:And we will be playing exactly into the hands of those who want to reconstruct the Hindu as ever-peaceful-ever-tolerant of everything thrown at it. They try to represent the "Hindu" "anger" as a deviation - a dangerous deviation that needs to be crushed. Compared to that, "violent" reaction from the Muslim is always just that - a reaction, but the violence is not unexpected or abnormal - nothing to show shocked reaction at. Violent verbal reaction from an "outraged" muslim is okay - but not from the "hindu".
Not at all. I only spoke of balance - i.e., to balance the angry image with a positive oratory and some charm. I don't hold back when in verbal confrontation with a crossed Leftist, Islamist or Congress wallah. But I don't get sucked into their emotional vortex of victimhood and "violent reaction" either.
Sushupti
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5198
Joined: 22 Dec 2010 21:24

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Sushupti »

In Mulayam land, young voices hail Modi

Auraiya (Uttar Pradesh), Oct. 23: Jeetu Yadav, 28, was elected the pradhan of Rannia village in Kanpur Dehat (rural) district on the Samajwadi Party symbol early this year. His agenda was clear.

“I want to develop my village; therefore, I need to keep good relations with the district administration and the state’s ruling party,” he told The Telegraph.

However, the functional equation Jeetu strove to keep with the Samajwadi dispensation did not stop him from attending Narendra Modi’s rally in Kanpur on Saturday.

Modi is a great leader with a genuine vision for development. You can’t compare him with Akhilesh Yadav (the Uttar Pradesh chief minister),” Jeetu said.

I was inspired by Modi after I recently visited Baroda. The roads are smooth. The best part was the absence of police from the roads. I didn’t hear the menacing hoots and honks from sarkari cars fitted with red lights. So I have hopes from Modi.”

Chandrabhan Singh, 10 years older than Jeetu and also from Rannia, was in the Samajwadi Party for 11 years, holding local positions. He recently quit to join the BJP. The catalyst was Modi but for another reason.

“The Congress, Samajwadis and the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) share a common outlook, which is that if Hindus do something, it is condemnable. If Muslims do the same thing, it is praiseworthy,” Chandrabhan said.

“I saw this attitude at work during the Muzaffarnagar riots. It saddened me and I decided instantly to support Modi. He is the only leader who boldly states he will work for every caste and community without discrimination.”

Some 50km from Rannia, in the town of Auraiya, Dharmendra Singh, 35, left the Samajwadis’ local Lohia Vahini for youths, where he was organising secretary. He says he was “disgusted” at the way Mulayam Singh Yadav had “bailed out” the Congress each time the UPA was in crisis.

A vote for the Samajwadis (in a Lok Sabha election) is a vote for the Congress. A vote for the BSP is also a vote for the Congress,” said Dharmendra, now an official with the BJP’s youth wing.

He claimed that Modi is not “divisive” like his rivals. “Modi is liked because he has brought peace and harmony to Gujarat. He doesn’t divide like the Congress, Samajwadis and the BSP do.”

The views of Jeetu, Chandrabhan and Dharmendra, random voices heard during a 140km tour through rural Kanpur, Akbarpur, Auraiya and Etawah, suggest a far-reaching change may be happening in the heartland.

This is a stretch known as “Mulayam country” because the Samajwadis have held sway over it, barring occasional interludes. In 2012, the party won every Assembly seat in these parts except for Sikandara, which went to the BSP.

The conclusive victory was enabled by a combination of upper caste, backward caste and Muslim voters that the Samajwadis had managed to forge. That axis is apparently crumbling. Even young Yadavs are drifting towards the BJP — towards Modi, to be precise.

Yogesh Yadav, a 26-year-old trucker from Akbarpur, said he frequently travelled to Gujarat.

I was not swayed by the Modi propaganda. But I saw the propaganda was not without basis. I come from a family of farmers; so I was amazed to see how in Gujarat, the Narmada waters irrigated villages in far-flung corners and brought prosperity,” Yogesh said.

The remotest villages have 24x7 electricity unlike Uttar Pradesh, where selective places like Kannauj and Rampur get uninterrupted power because Mulayam’s daughter-in-law (Dimple Yadav) is an MP from Kannauj and his favourite Muslim leader, Azam Khan, is from Rampur. Caste means little to my generation. We will vote for those who work and deliver.”

Closer to Etawah, Mulayam’s home turf, Ranveer Yadav, a college student from Lakhanpur village, warned: “This time Mulayam will taste a big defeat.”

Only Muslim voters unswervingly said they would largely vote for the Samajwadis, despite the Muzaffarnagar violence.

Seventy per cent of our votes are still with Mulayam; the rest with the BSP,” said Mohammad Muslim, a farmer in Akbarpur.

The Congress did not figure in the discourse although the Akbarpur Lok Sabha seat elected a Congress candidate, Rajaram Pal, in 2009.

Modi’s pull owes to four factors. One, a perception that the UPA government is “rotten”, and that the Samajwadis and the BSP allowed the “rot” to grow.

Two, a belief that Modi is a “strong” leader and “incorruptible”, as his record in Gujarat is “unblemished” and he is not “saddled with family”.

Three, a feeling generated by the Muzaffarnagar violence that the Akhilesh government panders excessively to the minorities. Four, Modi is from a most-backward caste.

Balbir Singh, a farmer from Muhari near Etawah, explained the impact of the Muzaffarnagar violence.

“Muzaffarnagar is far away; yet it broke my heart to hear that the Akhilesh government freed the Muslims who were culpable for the violence and only arrested the local BJP leaders. Is this justice?” he asked.

A cluster of myths has sprouted around Muzaffarnagar, which is closer to New Delhi than to Kanpur or Etawah. One goes like this: Modi aide Amit Shah went to the trouble spot in disguise and distributed food and medicines to Hindu families at a time local leaders Ajit Singh and son Jayant Chaudhary were too “scared” to set foot there.

“We have heard that many of the Hindu victims were Dalit-Jatavs, Mayawati’s core voters. She did not show up. So don’t be surprised if the Jatavs of western Uttar Pradesh vote for Modi this time,” a bureaucrat said in Lucknow.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1131024/j ... 488351.jsp
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4152
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Atri »

Sushupti wrote:One don't see such kind of all round slapping of a Congress representative on NDTV. What's happening to my secular India?

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-r ... -me/295373
Either by design or by his prakriti, pappu had se jyada bakchodi kar raha hai (pappu is exceedingly indulging in verbal loose motions). Sooner or later these people in media are going to run for cover. At least the lower rungs. I don't know what the deepstate deewan-e-khaas type jarnailists like shekhar coupta or pranay ray type media moghuls have in their minds and understanding. But what does nidhi have apart from political protection and influence provided by omar abdullah?

Point being the middle and lower rungs are bound to revolt sooner or later.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by brihaspati »

^^^They might simply be hedging for an outcome where UPA is no longer in the driving seat. RG jnr however is a loose cannon. He is trying to make noises to bring himself as the central focus, but is appearing extremely childish. Somehwere in the Bharatyia senses, he is jarring on the eyes and ears as a leader worth considering. Doesn't come across as mature enough to be anything more than the college social secy.

But he is already placing himself as the sacrificial lamb, and women I survey - find him cuddly. This is something to explore as to how women in general are going for. My hunch is as is typical - a fifty fifty split between those who want cuddlies and those looking for strong arms.
Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3042
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

brihaspati wrote:^^^They might simply be hedging for an outcome where UPA is no longer in the driving seat. RG jnr however is a loose cannon. He is trying to make noises to bring himself as the central focus, but is appearing extremely childish. Somehwere in the Bharatyia senses, he is jarring on the eyes and ears as a leader worth considering. Doesn't come across as mature enough to be anything more than the college social secy.

But he is already placing himself as the sacrificial lamb, and women I survey - find him cuddly. This is something to explore as to how women in general are going for. My hunch is as is typical - a fifty fifty split between those who want cuddlies and those looking for strong arms.
B-ji,
My guess is that he is watching too many Hindi films. Is it just me or does anyone think he is trying to imitate the old Sunny Deol movies of the late 80s and early 90s? All that screaming, and theatrics are hardly the province of a mature man who wants to be the prime minister candidate of the Congress. If he continues in this vein, I won't be surprised to see some Congress leaders jump ship to gravitate towards greener pastures. They have their political careers to consider.
ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by ShyamSP »

Atri wrote:
Sushupti wrote:One don't see such kind of all round slapping of a Congress representative on NDTV. What's happening to my secular India?

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-r ... -me/295373
Either by design or by his prakriti, pappu had se jyada bakchodi kar raha hai (pappu is exceedingly indulging in verbal loose motions). Sooner or later these people in media are going to run for cover. At least the lower rungs. I don't know what the deepstate deewan-e-khaas type jarnailists like shekhar coupta or pranay ray type media moghuls have in their minds and understanding. But what does nidhi have apart from political protection and influence provided by omar abdullah?

Point being the middle and lower rungs are bound to revolt sooner or later.
*******

Edited.
Last edited by ramana on 24 Oct 2013 05:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8261
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by disha »

brihaspati wrote:... and women I survey - find him cuddly. This is something to explore as to how women in general are going for. My hunch is as is typical - a fifty fifty split between those who want cuddlies and those looking for strong arms.
I bet almost all the woman who find him cuddly, never had to step out at very late in the night alone and not in a car to buy medicines for an ailing family member or had to step out and buy stuff like onions and potatoes and have an army of ayahs to do everything from cooking, cleaning to facials and nail trimming.

In short the bhadra-womenfolk in the khata-peeta type circuit., who freak out over a messed up kitty party.
Locked