Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 03 Oct 2013 13:24

Patni wrote:
KJoishy wrote:Corruption is rampant almost everywhere in India and especially in my homestate Karnataka. How is it in Gujarat? Any personal experiences of improvement from pre-Modi to Modi era? What steps has he taken for change? Are these changes scalable to all of India?

I am based in Mumbai but visit gujarat least once a year or so. Last year had my mothers knee replacement done in speciality hospital in Ahmedabad and can say the experiance was A-1. There is a feeling of ownership among average people on ground as in " appnu road and appnu sahar" translated as " our roads and our city" among the common auto-drivers etc. Based on experiance of tourist taxi rides from ahmedabad to various north gujarat temples for 3-4 days in total, the average police on road are lot less prone to demand a bribe to overlook minor violations etc. Ahmedabad has a huge two wheeler population on road and traffic was smooth and people mostly following traffic displine lot better then i remember in past. Overall, IMHO, the modi effect seem to be that majority of people have bought in to having better life by doing things the right way and not try for quick short cut to gain unfair advantage at cost of country / state / community by indulging in corruption. Ofcourse no one can claim everything is all golden in gujarat but there certainly are marked improvements in being law abiding, and average low income household have new hope and aspire to better life in more cohesive way. Grass root changes in administration is visible that makes inspiration to better life for young ones much more realisable compared to say a decade back.

On the dot. Basically establishment of rule of the law of land is what NAMO's USP is , if we have to put in a single line. This solves all problems that is facing amm admi in India. Transform India from jungle raj to law raj and rest will fall in place as u mentioned above.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Oct 2013 13:24

Harbans ji ^+1

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 03 Oct 2013 13:26

Doubt any would accuse Ms Tavleen Singh of being squeamish, dishonest or anti-NM. Yet, in her piece on Niti she lays out a few sobering observations (second hand conversations, as reported):

Modi magic bowls nation over

Great title, great gusto and all, but... Here's the sobering part...

When I talked to Congress friends to get their reactions to the rally in Rohini that nobody had expected to be so huge or so enthusiastic I found that they embroiled me immediately in the arithmetic game. Conversations went like this: “You see no matter how popular Modi is personally you must remember that the BJP has no presence in southern and eastern India. And, then remember that in Bengal there is no chance that either the Marxists or Mamata can go with him. In UP neither Mulayam nor Mayawati can go with him… so one way or another UPA-III is a reality already.”

When I talked to BJP politicians they were more circumspect when they played the same game. They said that they realised that Modi had made a huge difference to the BJP’s chances of winning in 2014 but were worried that he may not be able to help them cross the 200 mark which is the barest minimum needed for him to become Prime Minister. Conversations usually go this way. “We have to win more than 50 seats in UP. If we are to cross that 200 mark and there are no signs yet of this happening.”

Uh-oh. Can't say BRF was blind to the obvious. Many here have continually pointed out the challenges that lie in the path. Still, 200 is very much do-able... or maybe that's my wishful thinking speaking...

niran · Post by **niran** » 03 Oct 2013 13:50

disha wrote: Guj. HC will now decide if indeed there is a prosecutable evidence or not? And if it is indeed, then they will not be closing the report but asking the SC/SIT to take a look at it. If it is later it is the curious case of HC asking a tribunal from a higher court that it does not agree with the report. So how do you fix it? Another tribunal has to setup first to identify the delta on this report and then go from there.

realx saar, the SIT closure report involved more than 100 persons, wrt NaMo SC has already decreeded no have evidence, this is contested by jakaria lady,that is a different mater, one can contest the court decisions unless it is SC judgement then onree reconsideration petition once can be filed delaying tactics onree, the judgement on 22nd is for the rest of the accused

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Oct 2013 13:57

Jairam said Toilets are more Pavitra than Temples. That is a very provocative statement. Coming from a party that has built no toilets in 60 years..it's a bit rich to compare with NMs statement.

satya · Post by **satya** » 03 Oct 2013 15:02

There's an old belief among believers of dilli durbar ( from both sides ) that whosoever wins the majority of Loksabha seats in Delhi state forms the central government . IIRC it hold true for most of the elections. No logic but power finds its next recipient in mysterious ways .

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 Oct 2013 15:20

Those who lose in Karnataka also form government in Delhi.

ashashi · Post by **ashashi** » 03 Oct 2013 15:28

kmkraoind wrote:

Questions to Maulanas, identify this city?

Amdavad?

So different than I saw last time in late 80's.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Oct 2013 16:12

mm.. nobody understood my evil smilie land squatting sarcasm. never mind.

i knew from that sight of it, it is sabarmati river. you would not have done schooling in desh for not understanding there is a famous ashram on the river front.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 03 Oct 2013 16:27

krishnan wrote:
ANI ‏@ANI_news

Have seen article where Narendra Modi has said people who clean toilets get spiritual pleasure,has he ever experienced it?-Digvijaya Singh

Not just NaMo. Gandhiji himself said it. He and Kasturba used to clean the toilets at their ashram.

Diggy is a privileged idiot.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 03 Oct 2013 17:16

Kakkaji: You did not get me. I am not comparing Modi and Jairam. I am applauding the idea, and whoever brought the idea first, gets special kudos. It is simple, if the idea is good then it is good whoever said it and deserves appreciation. If the idea is bad, then it does not become great because it was articulated by an individual we admire. Jairam's flaws, biases and other issues are irrelevant in this context.

Saik: if you said that before, you get my warm appreciation too. RamaY garu's idea about planting orchards/trees as crops deserves special appreciation too.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 03 Oct 2013 17:20

harbans wrote:Jairam said Toilets are more Pavitra than Temples. That is a very provocative statement.

Can you provide links? I missed that piece.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 03 Oct 2013 17:32

Hari Seldon wrote:Doubt any would accuse Ms Tavleen Singh of being squeamish, dishonest or anti-NM. Yet, in her piece on Niti she lays out a few sobering observations (second hand conversations, as reported):

Modi magic bowls nation over

Great title, great gusto and all, but... Here's the sobering part...

When I talked to Congress friends to get their reactions to the rally in Rohini that nobody had expected to be so huge or so enthusiastic I found that they embroiled me immediately in the arithmetic game. Conversations went like this: “You see no matter how popular Modi is personally you must remember that the BJP has no presence in southern and eastern India. And, then remember that in Bengal there is no chance that either the Marxists or Mamata can go with him. In UP neither Mulayam nor Mayawati can go with him… so one way or another UPA-III is a reality already.”

When I talked to BJP politicians they were more circumspect when they played the same game. They said that they realised that Modi had made a huge difference to the BJP’s chances of winning in 2014 but were worried that he may not be able to help them cross the 200 mark which is the barest minimum needed for him to become Prime Minister. Conversations usually go this way. “We have to win more than 50 seats in UP. If we are to cross that 200 mark and there are no signs yet of this happening.”
Uh-oh. Can't say BRF was blind to the obvious. Many here have continually pointed out the challenges that lie in the path. Still, 200 is very much do-able... or maybe that's my wishful thinking speaking...

In Bengal Mamata has consolidated her position in recent municipal polls and I feel that hindu population is strengthening her hand so that she can join or provide outside support for NDA. There is TINA for muslims in Bengal. If they vote for comrades they will be butchered like all these years and there is no congress in Bengal.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 03 Oct 2013 17:34

Guess??!!!

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 03 Oct 2013 17:39

Looks like Surat?

But no point posting these pictures here saar, somebody can post pictures of Patna/Bhuvaneshwar etc that will make it look suave. Point is, it would be better to dig out hard numbers & statistics/KPIs/KPMs (Key Performance Indicators, Metrics) for development in Gujarat.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 03 Oct 2013 17:44

Rumor is going aroud Kiran Bedi is going to join BJP after Delhi elections are announced. Any one has inside sources?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Oct 2013 18:12

+chandragupta.. what is the point of putting those pics here? how is it going to help modi? are you saying that pic to a trichy voter to change his mind?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2013 18:15

She is reported to be the potential CM candidate of Delhi.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Oct 2013 18:17

huh.. what was I thinking.. for a moment, my mind was flashing images of mandira bedi.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 03 Oct 2013 18:20

@firstpostin: Rahul Gandhi: My mom told me that perhaps the words I used were too strong."

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 03 Oct 2013 18:20

ramana wrote:She is reported to be the potential CM candidate of Delhi.

Seedha AAP ka patta kategi... I wish her all the best. But the old guard in Delhi BJP will (rightly) rebel... on an newbie outsider foisted on them... shades of what happened in UKD in the Khanduri vs pokhriyal saga (and Khanduri wasn't even an outsider then but was party HQ's choice).

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 03 Oct 2013 18:22

Delhi is for BJP to loose and everything till now tells that it will

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 03 Oct 2013 18:24

SaiK wrote:huh.. what was I thinking.. for a moment, my mind was flashing images of mandira bedi.

Men.... Now we know where your vote will go if it CM election is Kiran vs Mandira

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 03 Oct 2013 18:25

That's the city with Zero unemployemnt - Surat.

5m people, an economy growing at 11.5 per cent – Ingredients for a “second tier” city in India

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 03 Oct 2013 18:27

Nice one by Gautier:

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... wtopic=675

More loyal than the queen

| By Francois Gautier |

Something terribly wrong is going on in India. On the one hand, there is the Shankaracharya, one of the most venerated Hindu leaders, arrested like an ordinary criminal on one of the most sacred days of the Hindus. On the other, politicians such as Mr Lalu Prasad Yadav, who have more corruption cases against them than anybody else - and certain others who may even have some blood on their hands - are made ministers and are strutting around with security guards in tow. The tarnishing of the image of the Kancheepuram mutt is nearly complete. Will it ever be able to recover its sanctity, even if the Shankaracharya is found not guilty?

On the other hand, there is a quack like American evangelist Benny Hinn, who even in the United States has no standing, but can come to India, a country with an overwhelming Hindu majority, to deride idol worship and paganism and convert the poor and the gullible. We see former ministers and ex-prime ministers - many of them Hindus -coming to Benny Hinn live on TV, with bowed heads and folded hands like beggars asking for the White Man's grace. We see the entire state machinery of Karnataka put to the service of the evangelist while all the laws are subverted so that he can conduct his fake show.

We see how, when 58 innocent men, women and children were burnt alive in the most horrible manner in Godhra, for no other reason than being Hindus, that there is not even respect for their memory, for the truth is now twisted for political purposes with the help of India's Marxists who want the death of Hinduism. Hindus are always accused of all the ills and intolerance, but where else in the world will you find a Christian supreme leader in a country with only three per cent Christians, a Sikh Prime Minister when there are only two per cent Sikhs, and a Muslim President with only 10 per cent Muslims?

I am a Westerner and a born Christian, but I am ashamed of what has been happening in the country ever since Ms Sonia Gandhi, also a Westerner and a Christian, has become the de facto ruler of this ancient and extraordinary country of 850 million Hindus and 125 million Muslims. For, what is happening is an insult to India's culture, greatness and intelligence. Even more saddening is the passivity of Indians in the face of the developments. For only a few voices have been raised in these moments of insanity. India's curse is the disunity amongst its Hindus, and their infighting. One is even surprised at the lack of reaction from the top Hindu spiritual leaders of India: Satya Sai Baba, Amrita Anandamayi and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. Together they hold sway on at least 400 million Hindus. Why don't they form a Supreme Spiritual Conclave along with the Shankaracharya? They have only to say one word and it will be followed. But even amongst them there is disunity.

Who will save India, then? Certainly not the Congress, which was incapable of finding a worthy Indian leader amongst its own members, many of whom are intelligent and sincere. By stooping down to Ms Sonia Gandhi, they have repeated the same old story of India's ancient princes and maharajas betraying each other and bowing down to a foreign ruler, be it Aurangzeb, or His Majesty's Viceroy. Who betrayed the mighty empire of Vijaynagar, the last great Hindu kingdom, to Muslims? Who betrayed India to the British? Who is betraying India today? But at least the Congress is true to its ideals. The biggest culprit must be the party which, in five years of power, did nothing except project a Gandhian image of itself, rather than having India's interests at heart.

Not have to say or do anything. She does not have to instruct the Tamil Nadu Police to arrest the Shankaracharya, or tell the Chief Minister of Karnataka, Mr Dharam Singh, to attend Benny Hinn's show. By just being where she is, at the top of India's political hierarchy, she is able to ensure that her silent wishes are fulfilled. Everybody is bending over backwards to please her, even anticipating her wishes!

I have nothing personally against Ms Sonia Gandhi. She was a good wife to her husband, a good daughter to her mother-in-law, and is doubtless a good mother to her children. Many accounts have come of her dignity, grace and concern for others. But what does Ms Gandhi really stand for, as the Eminence Grise of this country, the person who is drawing all the strings behind the scene? The Benny Hinn show points to not only a renewed effort at Christianisation of India (something which even the British and the Portuguese could not do), and a targeting of Hindus and Hindu spiritual leaders, but also at the Westernisation of the subcontinent. India will then become just another nation cloning the West. Even Muslims and Christians in India, who are like no other Christians and Muslims in the world, would lose something.

How sad that this is happening at a time when the West is looking for other spiritual answers to its problems and the Church is in decline there. The only silver lining in the whole story is that these events - whether the arrest of the Shankaracharya, the Benny Hinn show, or the rewriting of Godhra - may open the eyes of Indians. It may be that India needs to go through this painful process, to see the forces that have been unleashed when Indians chose someone who is basically hostile to the majority culture of this country as their leader. Maybe they need to be faced with a Government which is pulling India down, just to please the minorities, the Vatican and the Western powers who do not want India to emerge as a strong and vibrant nation.

Nobody seems to understand that India's unique identity, its Sanatan dharma, which survived so many onslaughts in its long history, is today under mortal threat.

Cry my Beloved India, Look what Thy children have done to Thee.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Oct 2013 18:32

SwamyG wrote:
harbans wrote:Jairam said Toilets are more Pavitra than Temples. That is a very provocative statement.
Can you provide links? I missed that piece.

http://nvonews.com/2012/10/07/bjp-shiv- ... h-temples/

Emphasizing on the importance of toilets, Ramesh said that it is no less essential than temple. The minister said that he thinks that building a toilet is more pious (pavitra) a work than making a temple.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2013 18:36

How much pious work did Jairam Ramesh do?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Oct 2013 18:37

Swamy G:

He clearly says Toilets are more Pavitra than Mandir. That is provoking. NM prioritizes Clean Toilets over Temples. Big difference.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Oct 2013 18:51

SwamyG wrote:Modi in his speech also talked about not seeking moksha in a different context (or was it the same?) . Jairam had also advocated that women should not get married into households that do no have toilets. If Jairam, truly, did have this idea (before) Modi, then he seems to be of the same mold as Anbumani Ramdoss during his tenure as Minister of Health and Family Welfare. Anbumani spent time in cracking down smoking, and used to cause takleef to the cinema industry. Anbumani and Jairam seems to be Ministers who had missionary zeal regarding their work.

If Modi had the idea before Jairam, kudos to Modi. If Jairam, had the idea first - then kudos to him.

What !!!! Now we would be discussing who holds the copyright for coming up with the idea of creating more toilets in India and the contenders are Modi and Jairam

Chlao lets even work around this lahori logic so just coming up with an idea == taali taali/claps claps/ eternal glory for the person ??? What about the implementation ??? There are billions of "game changing" ideas out there but they matter zilch in the real world if one cannot implement them. Jairam Ramesh had a very good idea of distributing DRDO developed bio toilets in villages but please show me where is the implementation ??? IIRC some articles was posted in some thread about the high dropout rate of girls from schools in gujarat due to lack of guess what.......toilets. It's anybody's guess what Modi did to stop that trend.

There lies the difference between Modi and IIT graduated elite class Jairam Ramesh.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 03 Oct 2013 18:57

Sagar G wrote:....and IIT graduated elite class Jairam Ramesh.

<OT>Jairam Ramesh got in through his father C.K Ramesh's professor's quota in IITB</OT>

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Oct 2013 18:58

Lilo wrote:
Sagar G wrote:....and IIT graduated elite class Jairam Ramesh.
Jairam Ramesh got in through his father C.K Ramesh's professor's quota in IITB

Quota Raaj Zindabaad !!!!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Oct 2013 19:03

There lies the difference between Modi and IIT graduated elite class Jairam Ramesh.

Stick to your criticism of JR and i agree. No point in bringing IIT or IIMs into it. One can add any association for that matter to Jairam and drag it to dirt. That only weakens the core point you want to make. JR belongs to a party that had 60 years to improve things, which they didn't do anything. We remained abysmally low on all indices whereas we deserved being near the top.

If after 60 years of doing nothing one gets the brain wave that Toilets are purer and holier (Pavitra) than Mandirs (Not Mosques or Churches), the punch he (JR) is making is deliberately Anti Hindu and anti that section of Hindu's who simply want the Ram Temple and everything subservient to that. NM is not catering to that section alone. And he does not say that Toilets are more Pavitra than Mandirs. He says in his scheme of things, his priority is Shauchalaya over Devalaya. And i am certain 99.99% folks will agree with that sentiment.

JR need not have taken a punch shot on Mandirs to make his point. Modi has just reiterated one of Dharma's 10 essential points i had listed earlier in another thread. Shauch (Cleanliness) translated in context to clean Toilets being prioritized.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Oct 2013 19:16

I got your point harbans will stick to the individual's criticism only, but there is a view out there that if a person comes from certain schools/colleges/universities people automatically think that they are more educated/smart than others. It's true to a point but people tend to overdo with that view but yes not a point to be discussed on this thread.

What Modi said is totally right I remember very well being taught that before you visit temple or even do pooja in your house you have to take a bath and clean yourself. JR used missionary language and to top that failed in implementing his own idea.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 Oct 2013 19:23

Is making anti Hindu remarks secular? Shouldn't a minister talking like this be dragged to courts?

Such anti Hindu remarks are criminal in nature.

He could have said toilets are more important than places of worship but he didn't it means he has no standards at all.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Oct 2013 19:25

What Modi said is totally right I remember very well being taught that before you visit temple or even do pooja in your house you have to take a bath and clean yourself. JR used missionary language and to top that failed in implementing his own idea.

Absolutely right and that point has to be hammered in. BTW yes there are some who give the elite airs, but many who work with dedication to better the country. Avinash Chandra DRDO Chief also from IIT D for example cannot be compared with a JR. Neither a Khemka (IIT Comp Sc, PhD Comp Sc TIFR, PhD economic, IAS ) gave a brilliant talk at an alumni function just the other day. So that brings in unwarranted controversy.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 03 Oct 2013 19:27

ramana wrote:She is reported to be the potential CM candidate of Delhi.

That will be a game changer in Delhi both assembly and LS. But there have been rumors of Bedi joining BJP previously as well. Didn't happen. Like Rajni in TN.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Oct 2013 19:30

I wonder what is politically more beneficial for NM, an alliance with TDP or YSRCP?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 03 Oct 2013 19:31

Jairam Ramesh got in through his father C.K Ramesh's professor's quota in IITB

Really? didn't know IITs have this quota.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Oct 2013 19:32

vishvak wrote:Is making anti Hindu remarks secular? Shouldn't a minister talking like this be dragged to courts?

Such anti Hindu remarks are criminal in nature.

He could have said toilets are more important than places of worship but he didn't it means he has no standards at all.

so why didn't any of the so-called hindutva groups like VHP do just that ? talk is cheap.
I cant imagine anyone getting away with making similar comments about other religions.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 03 Oct 2013 19:33

If they align with YSRCP, my repsect for Modi will be all gone. Not with looter gang. No way. Politically beneficial for short term or not. It would be a reprehensible move