Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

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Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 20:08

Old thread;f=1;t=005925

Please post away for the continuing education of Non Proliferation Mullahs.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 20:17

For reference

And seriously some humor

wondering why Paki scientists were in Rangoon not for Rubies but crossing yet another "Rubicon"

Myanmar Gets a Russian Nuclear Reactor
Deal Vexes China's Efforts To Expand Its Influence By Courting Yangon

BANGKOK, Thailand - Though one of the world's poorest countries, Myanmar is embarking on a nuclear-research project with the help of Russian and, possibly, Pakistani scientists. Diplomats say the development has upset China, which has heavily courted Myanmar in recent years and resents Moscow for muscling in on its turf.

Believed by Western diplomats to be the brainchild of Science and Technology Minister U Thaung, the project was initiated by Russia's Atomic Energy Ministry, which in February announced plans to build a 10-megawatt research reactor in central Myanmar, formerly known as Burma. In July, Myanmar Foreign Minister Win Aung, accompanied by the military-ruled country's ministers of defense, energy, industry and railways, traveled to Moscow to finalize the deal.

Myanmar officials decline to comment on the nuclear project, and there is little noticeable activity around the recently established Department of Atomic Energy in the capital, Yangon, residents say. But Western diplomats in Myanmar say the groundbreaking ceremony is scheduled to take place at a secret location near the town of Magway in January. The equipment and reactor will be delivered in 2003. Russian diplomats say more than 300 Myanmar nationals have received nuclear technical training in Russia during the past year.

Though Myanmar suffers from chronic power shortages, it isn't clear why it would need a research reactor, which is used mainly for medical purposes. Though there are so far no suspicions that the facility will have a direct military application, it will, like everything else in the country, be under military control.

The program drew scrutiny recently after two Pakistani nuclear scientists, with long experience at two of their country's most secret nuclear installations, showed up in Myanmar after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the U.S. Asian and European intelligence officials say <u>Suleiman Asad and Muhammed Ali Mukhtar left Pakistan for Myanmar</u> when the U.S. grew interested in interrogating them about their alleged links to suspected terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden, who Washington believes wants to develop a nuclear weapon. There is no clear evidence linking them to the Russia-backed project.

When the nuclear deal was finalized in Moscow in July, Russian news agencies quoted Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov as calling Myanmar a "promising partner in Asia and the Pacific region." Indeed, Russia also sold 10 MiG-29 fighter aircraft to Myanmar for $130 million.

All this is starting to worry China, which has gone out of its way to cultivate ties with Myanmar, becoming its main military supplier. Beijing long ago identified Myanmar as vital to the well-being of its impoverished southwest. Just this month, Jiang Zemin became the first Chinese president to visit Myanmar since the present, widely reviled junta seized power in 1988. "China is not happy with having to compete with Russia in a country like Myanmar, which the Chinese so clearly consider theirs," a Bangkok-based Asian diplomat says.

Chinese Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan said the two sides had agreed to expand cooperation in "infrastructural constructions" and other areas. Asian intelligence officials say that means China's desire to link its three southwestern provinces - Yunnan, Sichuan and Guizhou, with 160 million people in total - to vital export markets by way of Myanmar. At this month's summit, they say, Yangon appeared to accept in principle that Beijing's proposal for a 30-year accord that would ease Chinese access to Myanmar's river and road networks.

Meanwhile, China has also built a road linking Yunnan to Myanmar's riverport of Bhamo on the Irrawaddy, 800 miles north of Yangon, and has given Myanmar three dredgers to clear the river for large barges carrying Chinese goods. Chinese money and technicians are building a port and shipyard near Yangon that people knowledgeable about Asian intelligence say will cater primarily to Chinese vessels.

If Russia is butting in, some in the neighborhood may not mind. India and Vietnam fear China is using Myanmar to expand its influence in Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean. India is itself courting Yangon, but it's unlikely to dislodge the Chinese, who are firmly behind Myanmar's military junta. That's bad news for the international community, which is trying to broker a deal between the junta and the country's democracy movement. Mr. Jiang said during his visit that Myanmar "must be allowed to choose its own development path suited to its own conditions."

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Sunil » 22 Jan 2004 20:20

I wonder if this KRL drama is red herring?

I bet the real action is at PAEC.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 20:28

"Perhaps most notorious example Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, Pakistani nuclear engineer who reportedly tried to help Osama bin Laden get bomb. A report an Indian think-tank, South Asia Analysis Group, said Mahmood "believed Canadian trained." But both the AECL Foreign Affairs refuse provide names of Indians Pakistanis who had come Canada train.

Mahmood came prominence early 1970s when he designed device detect water leaks the Canadian-supplied Karachi Nuclear Power Plant - device for which he holds two patents Canada. He later spearheaded work on research reactor near Islamabad experts believe can produce about 100 kilograms enriched uranium a year, enough half dozen bombs. He the chief designer plutonium-producing reactor that, according experts, has played major role Pakistan's bomb program. Mahmood eventually rose become director-general nuclear power Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission.

Through years, Mahmood made little effort hide his extreme religious views. An outspoken admirer the Taliban, he openly advocated Pakistan follow the footsteps fundamentalist Afghan movement. He also penned bizarre papers arguing, example, harnessing genies could solve Pakistan's energy problems. "He a kook," says Zia Mian, Princeton physicist.

Mahmood forced retire 1999 after, said, calling large-scale production weapons-grade plutonium furnish other Islamic countries with nuclear weapons. Bitter toward government, Mahmood entertained close ties with Taliban and, according The Washington Post, eventually had "extensive" meetings with Osama bin Laden other al-Qaeda officials discuss nuclear weapons before September 11.

Experts are divided on how successful bin Laden has been in his atomic ambitions. U.S. officials say he does not yet possess nuclear bomb, but evidence he able to acquire some nuclear material. Pro-U.S. Afghan forces reportedly discovered low-grade uranium oil drums and metal boxes left behind fleeing al-Qaeda forces the Kandahar airport December; uranium could have been used make so-called "dirty bomb," crude radioactive device wrapped arounda conventional explosive. "

"Later on, when Pakistan's bomb program hitting its stride 1980s, West again turned blind eye, he said, because Pakistan staging area U.S. covert war against Soviet Union Afghanistan. [b]Pervez Hoodbhoy, nuclear physicist Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad noted proliferation expert, agrees: "They were supporting [Afghan] mujahedeen turned other way monster were creating. <u>expediency and lack principles</u>
<small> the real strength of SD and its SA pundits</small>
brought them gift.

"China assisted Pakistani nuclear programs most closely and the assistance has been lasting long. China will assist Pakistan further more. Pakistan notably has close relations with North Korea and Islamic & Arabian countries, as Pakistan becomes isolated recently. Especially eyes of the world are on the close relationship with Saudi Arabia in terms of nuclear and missile technology and the nuclear proliferation to Islamic countries through United Arab Emirates is a big issue."

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 20:38

Mohammed Hassanein Heikal, ‘Al Arabi’

6 July 1998



If we come to the deduction of facts, we may already see that the sub-continent’s move towards the Gulf thresholds have started, even before the announcement of nuclear tests in the sub-continent. Pakistan was the first to start. It is nearer, both geographically and ideologically. It early headed Gulf-wise in search for funding, during the time of President Zulifikar Ali Bhutto. What verily happened was that three Arab parties already contributed close to at least $ 1,100 million to the Pakistani nuclear project. Zulifikar Bhutto had, between the 1972 and 1974, succeeded in presenting the project to the three parties as an Islamic bomb, an additional insurance coupon against the Israeli bomb which all felt its heat but pretended being cold to it.

Arab money has been contributing to the funding of the Pakistani nuclear project at the of General Zia Ul Haq and after the execution of Bhutto. $ 300 to 400 million were transferred to the project, cut from the money allocated by some Arabs to the war aimed at embarrassing the USSR and driving it out of Afghanistan. Oddly, the then CIA Chairman William Gates knew about it in time and brought the matter to the Pakistani government, but the prerogatives of a ‘holy Muslim war’ against Communism made the CIA Chairman hold his peace.

But leaving the past with its deep buried secrets and confining ourselves squarely to the present, we may care to notice the following:

- Voices are raised to remind of Pakistan’s links of neighbourhood and kinship. They say that Pakistan is made subject to international sanctions because of the Islamic bomb. These sanctions will affect it more than they will affect India. Therefore, there is ‘need’ and ‘urgency’ for Arab assistance to Pakistan; and that the Arabs may find out that ‘it is no wasted investment’.

- There were Pakistani attempts to rather try to create an impression of a link between Arab-Israeli conflict and Pakistani nuclear project. It has also been said, whether the same is accurate or sheer conjecture, or was meant for a psychological effect, that Israel was on the verge of striking Pakistani nuclear sites hours before the explosions. And then, this whole thing was overtly linked to India and it was said that Israel has helped India in its nuclear t, and that, on the scientific and military domains, it has not been, for years, distant from the Indian theatre; and that it is now ‘time for the Arabs to know and to be sure of who is with and who is against them in the sub-continent’.

- Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif deemed to visit some Arab-Gulf States, as that being his first move abroad with the nuclear halo above his head!

These propositions imply that the Arab-Gulf is subject to a nuclear off-shoots from the Indian sub-continent. The off-shoots may not be such as saturated with lethal radiations, but, most to say, fraught with demands and after-demands in return. If Pakistan has taken the lead, it is only natural and logical that India would not be content with doors open to Pakistan and closed to itself. If India is not a Muslim country, then it should not be entirely overlooked that half the Gulf is Indian, of Indian descent or Indian-oriented.

From the psychological side, the Indian sub-continent’s nuclear explosions occurred at a time when the Arab world’s relations to the two big sub-continent countries waned; as such the Arab heart does not appear in possession of sufficient political assets to play an influential part in the sub-continent.

Until recently, more than half the Arab world was on close terms of friendship with India. The rest had this with Pakistan. For reason or another, the Arab world has undergone a change of heart in favour of the West. There could have been this interest in the West, had not our ‘sacred tie’ with the West been love from one side. On the side of the West, there was only time for chances and interests, though sugar-coated to attract. Arab fancies had too much on the sugar-coat more than it really was. They thought it pledging and promising although the others had not this intention.

Everything that follows has been taken from American sites on Internet. Much of it is from the sites maintained by the Centre for Non-proliferation Studies, Monterey Institutes of International Studies, Monterey, California -- that is, the very first sites to which anyone with the slightest interest in the subject will go.

The pattern the information reveals hits one like a truck. First, to the knowledge of every concerned authority, Pakistan has been for twenty years single-mindedly pursuing a nuclear weapons programme: that programme has been nothing but a nuclear weapons programme, as will become obvious in a moment. Second, its own efforts towards this goal floundered almost at the outset: it, therefore decided to buy, smuggle, steal, get whatever was necessary -- for this reason, its programme has been a clandestine one.

Third, its principal helper in the venture has been China.

How very short public memory Is, how assiduously facts are obscured from our people -- that is what strikes one as one reads the facts today. For all of them have been published from time to time -- Just that Prime Ministers do not seem to have read them, and the rest of us, attaching no Importance to them, soon forgot them.

28 January, 1998: In the Hearing of the Senate Select Committee on "Current and Projected National Security Threats," the Director of the CIA said, "Conventional arm sales have lagged in recent years, encouraging Chinese defence industries to look to WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) technology sales, primarily to Pakistan and Iran, in order to recoup. There is no question that China has contributed to WMD advances in these countries."

There has been a tightening recently, the CIA Director said more on this in a moment -- and added, "But China's relations with some proliferant countries are long-standing and deep, Mr Chairman. The jury is still out on whether the recent changes are broad enough in scope and whether they will hold over the longer term. As such, Chinese activities in this area will require continued close watching."

June 1997: In his report on The Acquisition of Technology Relating to Weapons of Mass Destruction and Advanced Conventional Munitions, July-December 1996, the Director of the CIA said that during the period covered by the report China "was the primary source of nuclear-related equipment and technology to Pakistan."

7 August, 1996: In its annual report on "Adherence to and Compliance with Arms Control Agreements," the US Arms Control and Disarmament Agency stated, "Prior to China’s NPT accession, the United States concluded that China had assisted Pakistan in developing nuclear explosives. Since China's accession to the NPT, it appears that China may have continued to assist Pakistan's unsafeguarded nuclear program and may have continued contacts with elements associated with Pakistan's nuclear weapons related programme. The United States Government has continuing concerns regarding possible continuation of China's past nuclear weapons assistance to Pakistan and Beijing's compliance with its NPT obligations."

September 1996: The Washington Times, a paper which has been following Chinese activities in this sphere with diligence, cited a report of the CIA dated 14 September 1996, saying that China had sold a special industrial furnace and high technology diagnostic equipment to unsafeguarded nuclear facilities in Pakistan -- "unsafeguarded" facilities are ones which are being kept by the country out of the reach of international inspection agencies.

The Centre for Non-proliferation Studies account of the news story records, "The equipment reportedly is of a dual-use nature and could be applied to either civilian or military applications. The report also said that Chinese technicians were in Pakistan in September 1996 to install in the equipment. The China Nuclear Energy Industry Corporation (CNEIC) reportedly may have arranged the transfer.

According to the CIA report, 'In the aftermath of CNEIC’s ring-magnet sale to Pakistan and China's May 11 commitment not to provide assistance to unsafeguarded nuclear facilities, senior-level government approval probably was needed for this most recent assistance'. The report also alleged that China planned to submit false documentation on the equipment’s final destination. High-temperature furnaces (also called vacuum or 'skull' furnaces) can reportedly be used to mould uranium or plutonium into bomb cores for use in nuclear weapons, and mould titanium for missile nose cones and other key components. The equipment may have been headed for Pakistan's Khushab heavy water reactor."

The Centre records that the Pakistani Embassy spokesman vigorously denied the sale: "We deny that there was any nuclear-weapons related transfer to Pakistan." As usual Pakistan saw itself as a victim: "I regret to say," the spokesman solemnly declared, "that we seem to be becoming the victims of a series of leaks, some of which are... simply motivated or inspired by the electoral fever in the United States and by their own internal shadow-boxing among themselves."

The Chinese were cleverer -- we did it, but earlier, they exclaimed! The Chinese Embassy spokesman dismissed The Washington Times report as "groundless," recalls the CNS site. It had conducted an internal investigation of the sale, the Chinese Government told the US Administration, and had established that the sale had taken place in late 1995 and early 1996 -- that put the sale a few convenient months before China signed the pledge on May 11, 1996!

Late 1995: "The CIA told the State Department," recalls the CNS account, "that a China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC) subsidiary, the China Nuclear Energy Industry Corporation (CNEIC) had supplied Pakistan's unsafeguarded state-run A Q Khan Research Laboratory in Kahuta, a reported nuclear weapons laboratory with 5,000 specialised ring magnets for the top suspension bearing of high-speed gas centrifuges to be installed at the facility. The deal was valued at between $ 50,000 - $70,000."

"Ring magnets" are devices used in centrifuges which can make weapons-grade enriched uranium.

"Groundless", fumed China. It warned" the US not to impose sanctions on the basis of mere "rumours." Pakistan was as vehement. Soon China acknowledged that a sale had indeed taken place --- but that the China Nuclear Energy Industry Corporation had made the sale on its own! The central Government of China had not known! A sale of components vital for a nuclear weapons programme, a sale by a Government Corporation, a sale by a Corporation of not just any Government but of the Government of China, and yet "it was made without our knowledge"!

1994, 1993: Agreements signed with much fanfare between Pakistan and China for financing and deepening their cooperation for Pakistan's "peaceful" nuclear programme. But this time let us start from the earlier dates in the CNS sites.

1974: Convinced about what Pakistan was up to, "Western countries embargo nuclear exports to Pakistan........"

1977: "Leybold Heraeus of Hanan Germany sells Pakistan vacuum pumps and equipment to be used in uranium enrichment........"

1981: "Albert Goldberg is arrested in November at a US airport while attempting to ship two tons of zirconium to Pakistan. Zirconium is used in nuclear reactor operations that can lead to nuclear weapons........"

1983: "China reportedly supplies Pakistan with enough highly enriched uranium for one to two nuclear weapons.... China supplies Pakistan with a complete design of a 25kt nuclear bomb.... Senior Pakistani nuclear scientist Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan orders over 6,000 tubes made of special steel to be used for uranium enrichment... In June a US State Department memo says that US intelligence agencies believe the Pakistani centrifuge program is intended to produce material for nuclear weapons.... In July a report published in the USSR says that Pakistan can make five atom bombs in a year."

1984: "Pakistani citizen Nazir Vaid is caught smuggling electronic components, potentially useful for nuclear weapons, from the United States."

1985: "In July a US television station reports that Pakistan has tested US-made krytron electric triggers in conventional explosions. Krytron triggers can be used in the detonation of nuclear devices."

1986: US intelligence agencies allege that Pakistan is producing highly enriched uranium, which may be used in nuclear weapons... In September Pakistan conducts 'cold tests' of a nuclear implosion device at Chagai."

1987: "Pakistan acquires a tritium purification and production facility from West Germany. The plant can produce up to 10g of tritium daily. Tritium can be used to produce a thermonuclear device."

1989: "A 27k research reactor (PARR-2) is built at Rawalpindi with Chinese assistance... Western intelligence sources indicate that China is arranging for Pakistan to tests its nuclear device at China's Lop Nor nuclear test site."

1990s: "China reportedly provides assistance for the construction of the Chashma plutonium reprocessing facility."

1991: "In September, Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto said that Pakistan could 'rapidly produce' a nuclear weapon in the event of a serious threat."

1992: "In February, Pakistani Foreign Secretary Shahryar Khan confirmed that Pakistan has the components necessary to construct at least one nuclear weapon...

1993: "China's National Nuclear Corporation begins work on a 300MW pressurised-water reactor at Chashma... A report by The Stockholm Peace and Research Institute (SIPRI) says that approximately 14,000 uranium-enrichment centrifuges have been installed at Kahuta... German officials seize approximately 1,000 gas centrifuges bound for Pakistan."

1994: "Former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif says Pakistan has a Nuclear bomb."

1996: "Pakistan expects to complete its unsafeguarded 40 MW heavy-water reactor at Khushab. US officials believe that the reactor is being built with Chinese assistance....

Three conclusions stare one in the face:

The threat comes not from the recent explosions which Pakistan has carried out. it has consisted in the programme -- single-minded and clandestine -- which Pakistan has been pursuing for twenty years to acquire nuclear weapons.,

Its principal supplier and guide in this programme has been China;

Information about this programme, as well as about the pivotal role of China in it, has been public knowledge.

And yet the assertion, "As Prime Minister I had access to secret information. And on the basis of that I tell you -- with full sense of responsibility -- that when I gave up my office, there was no threat."

All I can say is that perhaps Prime Ministers are kept so busy reading "secret information" they have no time to notice what is staring everyone in the face.

But even this is but a part of the story, as we shall see.

The Pioneer
June 3, 1998

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 20:57

Nothing begins and nothing ends
That is not inked by Mansoor(Ijaz)
For Mushy is born as others pain
Soon to perish in his own


look at our freinds 'Doosara Gola'

Unfortunately, the plethora of revelations about Pakistan's activities is only the tip of the iceberg of a decade-long clandestine effort by unregulated elements within the country's nuclear, intelligence and military establishments to sell the "Islamic bomb" to other Muslim nations. At the heart of the effort was a dangerously motivated clique of former Pakistani intelligence chiefs, corrupt politicians, and Islamized Pakistani scientists, including Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, who believed it was their moral duty to offer weapons of mass destruction to embattled Muslim states in the global Ummah (community of Islamic nations).

Their activities, in various stages of planning and implementation since the late 1980s, reached a
zenith in the months leading up to the September 11 attacks. Key military and intelligence officials in Islamabad, later fired or laterally moved to less sensitive posts by Musharraf at Washington's urging, had come to the conclusion that the West, led by the United States, was hell-bent on the economic destruction of Pakistan for its robust nuclear weapons program, lack of democracy, military support for militants in Kashmir, and supply lines to the extremist Taliban regime in Afghanistan.
Pakistan would maintain plausible deniability of any involvement in Middle East affairs (no one would believe Shia Iran was depending on Sunni Pakistan for nuclear assistance), but its proxy play to clandestinely help equalize the playing field with nuclear Israel would give it deep respect, and lots of free oil, from the Arab world.

Saudi Arabia toyed with the idea of obtaining Pakistani nuclear weapons as well. But Islamabad's intelligence mavens vetoed the effort because of the heavy American military presence at that time, fearing their larger designs to spread Pakistani expertise and technology might get exposed. The alternative put up for consideration was building a secret facility in one of the sheikdoms bordering Saudi Arabia--as long as the money, or enough free oil, was there for Pakistan's benefit, and the sheikdom agreed to provide regional cover in the event of any Israeli, or even Iranian, malfeasance.

To this day, the March 1999 visit by Saudi Arabia's Defense Minister, Sultan bin Abdul Aziz, to Pakistan's nuclear facilities at Kahuta remains unexplained.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 21:07

The strongest allie in SA during Afghan Jihad is no different from the current great allie Mushy & Co in wat against GOAT.

But, by 1977, when I first arrived in Pakistan as a freelance journalist writing for the BBC and the London Financial Times, Washington was putting pressure on France to stop supplying Pakistan with nuclear power reactors and to cancel a reprocessing plant, which would have given Pakistan a means of separating plutonium. During my 16 months in Pakistan-when I was not reporting on the military coup against Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, martial law, and abortive elections-I wrote about the nuclear problem. At the time I knew nothing about Khan and Kahuta, where work was already beginning.

I first wrote about Khan in 1979, after the name of Kahuta had become known. My replacement in Pakistan had gone to Khan's home in Islamabad, where the new reporter was badly beaten by security men and had a fictitious charge brought against him.

(The French ambassador had also been beaten a few days earlier near Kahuta. Zia's comment on being told of the ambassador's beating was, "I wish it had been the <h3>American Ba$tard."</h3> Whether he meant the American ambassador was not clear. Two weeks earlier a State Department official, Robert Gallucci, now an assistant secretary of state, had come to Pakistan to confront Zia with satellite evidence of Kahuta. Zia had refused to see him, so Gallucci was driven-uneventfully-past the site by an American diplomat.)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Rangudu » 22 Jan 2004 22:53

Khan's daughter to defend father

From Absar Alam

ISLAMABAD – As the government struggles to handle the saga of nuclear scientists’ debriefing a daughter of Dr A. Q. Khan, who left for Europe recently with documentary evidence of her father’s innocence, will defend him abroad if he is arrested, The Nation learnt reliably.

With the controversy becoming a hot potato in government hands, Khan’s daughter left with the resolve to defend her father if any action is taken against him, sources close to Dr A. Q. Khan said Wednesday.

The daughter lives abroad and had returned to Pakistan few weeks ago following the reports of debriefing of her father by security agencies. Aini Khan, the wife Dr A.Q Khan, confirmed that her daughter had left the country adding: “She does not live here.”

Asked if the reports that she was planning to leave the country because of this controversy she said: “This is not true.” She said no family member had left the country recently for this reason. She, however, gave very brief answers.

Sources said the daughter left along with some papers, which would prove Dr A. Q. Khan innocent and that he had done nothing illegal. The departure of Dr Khan’s daughter is significant, as the government has placed a ban on the foreign travel of nuclear scientists. It could not be confirmed whether the wife of Dr Khan is allowed to travel abroad or not.

Khan’s daughter, who is married to a non-Pakistani, decided to leave and fight her father’s case abroad following aggressive statements issued by the government’s top civilian and military spokesmen against the scientists.

While appearing on a number of TV channels, these spokesmen have been claiming for the last several days that the government would take action against all those scientists, “no matter how senior they are,” who are allegedly involved in the leakage of Pakistan’s nuclear technology to Iran or other country.
The continuous issuance of these statements against the top scientists rattled the family members who, at one stage, asked Dr Khan to return all medals and awards given by the government for his services. Dr Khan, though under tremendous pressure because of this media trial, refused to do so.

Sources, however, claimed that Khan’s daughter had a broad picture of the whole issue.

It was learnt that D.G. ISI Lt. General Ehsanullah and Chief of Strategic Planning Division Lt General Khalid Ahemd Qidwai had questioned Dr Khan. The Khan Research Laboratory is under the command and control of Strategic Planning Division or SPD.

During the debriefing session, Dr Khan is said to have told both generals that all allegations on KRL were false as there was multi-layered security system to protect the country’s asset. The army itself supervises this multi-layered system and neither a scientist or any equipment would reach wrong hands by dodging such a foolproof security blanket.

The argument seems to have homed in as the government has realized, though quite late, that the issue might spin out of control if it continued to cave in under the US pressure on country’s vital security plan.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Rangudu » 22 Jan 2004 22:57

Jhooth boley kaua kaatey...

Beg denies he carried Iran's message: N-tech transfer issue

By Our Staff Reporter

ISLAMABAD, Jan 21: Gen (retd) Aslam Beg, former Chief of Army Staff on Tuesday denied he had carried any message from Iranian government to Nawaz Sharif government soliciting transfer of nuclear technology besides expressing shock over the way nuclear scientists were being treated, saying it was beyond his comprehension.

Rumours were rife in Islamabad that Gen (retd) Beg had also been 'questioned' in connection with the ongoing inquiry started on the letter of International Atomic Energy Commission.

Some reports, which were neither denied nor confirmed by official quarters, suggested that Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan had told investigators that any sharing of nuclear technology with Iran had been sanctioned by Gen Aslam Beg, who served as Pakistan's chief of the army staff between August 1988 and August 1991.

However, Gen (retd) Aslam Beg denied that he had been approached by any official in this regard. When he was asked about statements of two former senior ministers, who recently alleged that a former COAS had conveyed to the then prime minister Nawaz Sharif about Iran's willingness to pay a handsome price for the transfer of nuclear technology, Gen. Beg termed it sheer lies. "I am not an idiot to carry such a message."

He said when he was COAS during the tenure of the first PPP government, it had been decided that Pakistan would not conduct "hot tests", after having achieved nuclear deterrence capability through "soft tests". He said it had also been decided that Pakistan would not indulge in nuclear proliferation under any circumstances.

Aslam Beg said in the presence of a clear cut government policy of non-proliferation, he could not have carried such a message. Commenting on the issue of nuclear scientists' debriefings, Gen Beg said it was beyond his comprehension.

He said the president of the country should not have demoralised the nation by saying that he was under international pressure on cross-border terrorism, extremism, and nuclear non- proliferation.

"Being a leader, he should (be able to) sustain the pressure. These scientists have done so much for the country by providing a nuclear deterrence. They don't deserve this." he added.

JE Menon
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby JE Menon » 22 Jan 2004 23:25

>>documentary evidence of her father’s innocence

One of the better jokes in recent memory out of Pakistan...

The amount of effort being put into portraying the whole Pak prolif shebang as a "non-state" thing is amazing. But the worm appears to be turning. Under duress, undoubtedly Pakistani scientists will begin to sing. These may be the "documentary evidence" Khan's daughter is talking about - i.e. evidence of state authorisation.

The amazing part is that people like Cohen and others are being so blatantly dishonest when they even momentarily entertain the idea that this whole thing was run by rogue scientists. Surely, they know better, much better - as experts on the Pakistani military establishment. And no, a sentence or two that scientists could send stuff out of the country without customs checks do not cut it.

But maybe, just maybe, this slow denouement is a natural progression, anticipated and not unplanned for - as in total denial, followed by grudging acknowledgement, followed by blame of individuals, followed by blame of groups, followed by blame on establishment authority.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 23:33

Can somebody calculate the Half Life period of

1)TSP Nuke proliferation lies

2)Isotopes of Paki lies and by products like

Uneven Cohen
Wallace the Arizona cowboy
Garry Mole hill
SA Pundits

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Sunil » 23 Jan 2004 00:15

And the entertainment continues to grow.

From the BR "Monty Python" collection.

USG: Musharraf you aren't doing enough to stop proliferation..

Musharraf: No no.. 500% Pakistan is not proliferating. See let me prove it to you ... (picks up the phone) Hello (Wink Wink) Kidwai, go to Iran and Libya and find out if any Pakistani has done anything wrong.

Khalid Kidwai (DG SPD) (wink wink): Ji Huzoor!... (runs around his office desk twice shouting vrooom vrooom.. zooom zoooom.. and then picks up the telephone to Musharraf's office).. Hello Sadar sahab, I have found out that Father of the Pakistani Bomb, Abdul Qadir Khan is involved in something illegal.

Musharraf (Wink Wink): OH Really!! I am very angry Khalid.. Interogate him and anyone connected with him.. and come up with some way to make everything transparent.

Kidwai (Wink Wink): Ji Huzoor.. (goes to a bank of secret telephones)... Hello Toor (AVM Sarafaraz Arshad Toor) put an ad in the paper saying that people have to obtain NOC and EUC for everything they sell okay?... Hello Taj.. (Maj. Gen. Nadeem Taj - DGMI) is your head okay? No No I mean after the injuries you sustained in the Dec 25th suicide attack.. do me a favor arrest A Q Khan and bring him to me.

Soon A Q Khan is brought before Gen. Kidwai... unfortunately for Gen. Kidwai.. A Q Khan is a bit slow today morning.. it is one of those days.. and hey... it is 3 AM...

Kidwai (Wink Wink): Khan Behan*hod!! You sold nuclear technology to Iran and Libya!!! how dare you do such a thing..

A Q Khan (Confused): Lekin Kidwai don't talk sh*t.. You know very well why I would dare to do such a thing...

Kidwai (Wink Wink Wink): Khan don't tell lies... you madarc*od!!! (slaps him across the face...)

A Q Khan (still not getting it): Kidwai don't make me angry.. you know perfectly well that I don't do anything without COAS' says so.. Ask (Mirza Aslam) Beg....

Kidwai (Wink Wink Wink Wink): Accha.. I will ask Beg.. (picks up the phone) .. Taj bring me Beg.

Kidwai doesn't seem to be catching on that his winking is absolutely passing Khan by.. Khan just hasn't woken up yet.

(soon Beg is brought before Kidwai)...

Kidwai (Wink Wink): Beg.. is there any truth to what this liar Khan is saying?

(Beg on the other hand, is spry as a kestrel).

Beg (Wink Wink): Ofcourse not Kidwai you should know that .. Do I look like the sort that would encourage such illegal activity? I mean I taught you when you were in NDC you remember my lectures right.. would I do such a thing?

Kidwai (Wink Wink): Ofcourse I remember your lectures in National Defence College, you were a great teacher. I was very influenced by your thinking in 1981... Dekha Khan.. bas*tard... thats what you get for maligning the name of the Great Glorious Pakistan Army...

Khan.. (Still Not Getting It): Ya Allah.. What are you people saying.. I have proof of having obtained permission from Beg..

Kidwai (Eyes Wide Open giving Khan a huge slap on his face): Khan khamosh (silence)!!!!.. don't open your filthy mouth for even one second!!!!

Khan (Wincing from the blow): My daughter staying in America has all the correspondance with you (pointing at Beg), and even with General Mus....

Kidwai (Kicking Khan in the nuts): Why do you persist in lying Khan! why? ...

Khan (Vomitting blood): Kidwai.. how could you.. how could you..... after all these years.. (faints)...

Musharraf (Wink Wink): Good Work Kidwai.. you have solved the case.. (turning to the USG).. See how efficient my staff are.. we have caught your proliferator.

USG: Yes General Musharraf you are truly the best friend America has ever had in Pakistan.

Khan (in moments of fading consciousnesss): I also have documentation of PAEC giving Osa..

Kidwai delivers another kick to Khan's nuts and Khan faints again..

USG : Err.. what was that?

Musharraf: Oh nothing you know how these suspects get when they are hassled a bit.. come now lets go get some tea and biscuits..

State Dept Official (with a glint in his eye): Biscuits with cream in them?... really?

Musharraf: Yes yes and with Strawberry Jam in them..

State Dept Official (tugging a skeptical USG's coatsleeves): Lets goo... I am going to get biscuits with cream and jam.. lets go.. lets go with Musharraf NOW!!!!... waaaaaahahaaa.... waaaa....!!! Booo hoooo.... my biscuits are getting cold..

USG (Reluctantly): Oh all right..

(At the tea table on the plush manicured lawn of the Presidential Palace in Islamabad)..

USG: Hey look the newspaper just came in and what this on page two.. an ad calling on Pakistani firms indulging in trade to get an NOC from the Govt. of Pakistan..

Musharraf: Yes Yes I asked Kidwai to do that..

USG: Lets see ... what do Pakistani firms sell,.. it says here.. reactors, uranium, plutonium, centrifuges, klystrons, ring magnets, valves, bearing.. Oh My God!! this list is endless.

Musharraf: Yes but we are being transparent about it.

USG: (Gulp)... Yes you are..

On the side the state department official quietly polishes off another plate of cream biscuits and turns to Musharraf and asks..

"General can we have the biscuits with strawberry jam in them?.."

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Rich » 23 Jan 2004 01:01

Originally posted by sunil s:
And the entertainment continues to grow.

From the BR "Monty Python" collection.

Sunil, this skit should be archived. If for no other reason than to pull it out after a Paki nuke goes off on the US and reiterate: "WTF have we been trying to tell you all these years?!" :mad:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Prateek » 23 Jan 2004 01:07

India News: Military personnel may be called for debriefing: Pakistan minister

Islamabad, Pakistan's Interior Minister Faisal Saleh Hayat Thursday said military personnel too would be questioned if necessary over the alleged proliferation of nuclear technology, Online news agency reports. Hayat told journalists the military personnel could be called for "debriefing sessions" similar to those for nuclear scientists.

Pakistan's nuclear programme was a national asset and no one enjoyed a monopoly over it, he said.

"Nuclear scientists had rendered commendable national service by acquiring nuclear capability. However, scientists who undermined the standing of the country in the comity of nations for money minting will have to undergo debriefing," he noted.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Raj Singh » 23 Jan 2004 01:17


Y'know, I think BR should start charging for it's stuff.
You may have something different on your mind. However, going by what seems to be being suggested, one wonders, if the suggestion is serious.

Generally, talk about the money (to express thoughts), there goes out the thoughts/creativeness/analysis/readership/participants and so on, as you know yourself.

Like I said, perhaps, something different may have been on the mind than what seems to being seemed/suggested/intended. :)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 23 Jan 2004 02:04

Secret Sino-Pakistani Nuclear Co-operation

China assigns 12 scientists to help Pakistan develop a nuclear device.
China helps Pakistan build nuclear-weapons research centres.
China and Pakistan plan to build and test Pakistan’s first nuclear bomb, but the fall of Pakistan’s government suspends the operation.
China gives Pakistan complete design for a nuclear weapon and enough uranium for two bombs, according to U.S. intelligence.
China reportedly gives Pakistan enough tritium gas for 10 nuclear weapons, as well as enriched uranium.
China allows Pakistani scientists to observe a nuclear test.
China helps to build 300 megawatt nuclear power plant at Chasma and tritium gas purification plant at Khushab.
A Chinese company sells 5,000 ring magnets used to make weapons-grade uranium to a nuclear research laboratory at Kahuta.
To avoid U.S. sanctions, China pledges not to provide assistance to unsafeguarded nuclear facilities in Pakistan. It also signs the CTBT.
Pakistan tests its first nuclear bomb.

Source: Nayan Chanda, ‘The Race is On’, FEER, 11 June 1998, pp. 20-22, here p. 22.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 23 Jan 2004 02:31

North Korea’s Brinkmanship Game 1994-1999

October 1994 Agreed Framework: North Korea agrees to freeze nuclear weapons programme. U.S. and allies agree to provide two light-water nuclear power plants and 500,000 tonnes of heavy fuel oil annually.
1997 North Korea demands and receives more than 100.000 tonnes of food aid from the U.S. in exchange for getting Geneva four-party talks off the ground.
1997 Pyongyang demands and receives a standard $100,000 per mission from the U.S. to allow officials to look for the remains of missing American servicemen.
1997 Pyongyang demands and receives $20,000-50,000 from Seoul for reunions between Northern and Southern families separated after North Korea’s partition.
1998 North Korea demands a guarantee of at least $1 billion in international aid if it normalizes relations with the U.S.. The U.S. hasn’t accepted.
April 1998 In a first round of missile talks in Berlin, North Korea demands $1 billion annually to freeze ist missile export programme. The U.S. hasn’t accepted.
July 1998 South Korea’s Hyundai agrees to pay Pyongyang almost $1 billion in fees over six years for tourist access to a sacred site in the North.
August 1998 In a ‘satellite launch’, North Korea tests a ballistic missile over Japan.
September 1998 North Korea demands $300 million from the U.S. as ‘libel’ compensation in return for inspection of an underground site at Kumchangri.
September 1998 The U.S. pledges 500,000 tonnes of food aid through the World Food Programme (WFP). The first 300,000 tonnes are sent soon after.
March 1999 North Korea agrees to let U.S. inspectors visit Kumchangri. U.S. pledges 100,000 tonnes of ffod aid under a bilateral agricultural project, and announces that 200,000 tonnes from the WFP pledge are being delivered.

Source: U.S. Congressional Research Service, here following Shawn W. Crispin/Shim Jae Hoon, ‘Buying Time’, in: Far Eastern Economic Review (FEER), 1 April 1999, pp. 18-20, here p. 19.

Folks>> notice a pattern here

China gives Pakis the bum material and technology to get them running.
( The France, Canada Germany also did in a very different way but they didnt give Cliff notes how
to prepare a Bum)

Chinese deny any sharing of expertise to Unkil. (every time Non proliferation made some fake noises in spin city unkil would pretend to ask questions of PRC)

The Paki pupil doesnt make progress in delivery, so PRC gives N Korea the enhancement kits to SCUDs.

The N. Korean dongs work hard and make the
Nodongs larger to go farther and better.

PRC waits for Pakis to develop their own delivery , much to the surprise og their guru PRC the Pakis make head way in Paint technology.

Pakis fly something into the air, Mrs Bhutto claps and then runs for hardened shelter as the Shaheen starts growing bigger & bigger instead of growing smaller smaller after lift off.

( the world comes to know that Pakis missiles are unique in the sense, they have definite ETA BDU expected time of arrival,but destination unkown, ie control systems problem, same as in Tribal areas ;) )

PRC is fed up gives PAkis M-9 & M-11 to do the paint job.

Again in the spin city, Non Proliferation guys make some weird noises, Unkil again asks PRC, whats goin on?

WH spokes person when asked about crates of M-11 waiting Sarghoda says 'At this time there is no conclusive evidence of proliferation)

So PRC gets off the hook again, meanwhile also gets MFN status.

Pakis and the dongs start to think, Hmm lets see if PRC can balck mail unkil by proliferation why not we?
Mrs Bhutto falls for a dong in pong yang and signs a deal.

Meanwhile our xerox khan expert that he is in xeroxing starts to make clones of centrifuges and starts selling to Libya, Iran, KSA, KSA folks being the lazy kind that they are beleive in buying the product who wants to a little assembly, especially when the instruction in the bum kit can be in three languages, Chinese, Korean and Urdu, (first two are read from top to bottom the other one from right to left. ;) )

Unkil in his own world ignores all this but wants tighten screws on India via Shitty Bitty ( entry into clause insisted by China Aussies playing the second fiddle)

The pakis being on roll fire off a freshly painted Gauri right on the day bill Richardson takes to bat, anybody remember the photo of him with a cricket bat in India with Mahajan next to him?

Then follow POK 2, the failed attempts of Xerox khan and then the real imported mal from PRC works, followed by 9-11 to recent to repeat.

Moral If you ignore evil when small, you will need SF for years to clean up.
Huge bill to average joe nobody in Oxford MS.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 23 Jan 2004 03:11

Looking back (written in 1998 by a Pakistani)

In comparison, our secrecy measures are informal and puerile. Dr AQ Khan unlike his Indian counterpart, Mr Abdul Kalam, is easily accessible. So much so that an Indian journalist Kuldip Nayar was able to breach the security cordon in broad daylight to secure an exclusive interview from Dr Qadeer on the Pakistani nuclear programme. Nayar's Pakistani friend who had arranged this clandestine rendezvous now sits in the federal cabinet and appears to be the closest confidante of Nawaz Sharif.

where else but in dung

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Vijay J » 23 Jan 2004 17:05

Straws in the wind maybe but there is something here. Hamid Mir and Kamal Matinuddin are complaining about the same person. Mr. Kuldip Nayar, you seem to have made powerful enemies.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Sunil » 23 Jan 2004 17:18

Wow..Jumrao, this thread is SMOKIN'!!


Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Guest » 23 Jan 2004 17:28

FWIW, Musharraf made the top story on CNN with his vow at Davos to prosecute proliferators.
Musharraf: We will act over nukes

DAVOS, Switzerland (CNN) -- Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf has vowed to prosecute any Pakistani nuclear experts who passed their knowledge to other countries.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Kuttan » 23 Jan 2004 18:45

Mr. Kuldip Nayar, you seem to have made powerful enemies.
More to the point, in 1998, the WKK had access to Xerox Khan.

As DUNG points out, I doubt if many people at the top of the desi nuclear establishment, holding top-level security clearance, would have gone for chai-biscoot with Paki media types at that time.

In the US, such a meeting would probably have required a VISIT REQUEST approved at a pretty high level, if at all, with a detailed "Alien Contact Report" to follow. The Request Letter would have had to come from the desi Embassy, (if it was through "proper channels").

IOW - the visit was of course arranged with ISI approval. Question is - who ELSE approved that? :eek:

So - what that says about Kuldip Nayar's "credentials" is interesting - in amplitude of the event. I can only make conclusions with a 180-degree phase uncertainty, though.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Vijay J » 23 Jan 2004 18:51

Whatever he was, Kuldip Nayar is losing his friends out there.

Given how easily Hamid Mir found Osama and wrote his biography when the CIA couldn't find him and Kamal Matinuddin wrote paens of the Taliban and the success of the Pak Afghan policy, I think there is a 180 phase shift in progress.

But is it real?

I think his track II days are over.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 23 Jan 2004 20:41

Pak helped North Korea build nukes: Report

Shyam Bhatia in London | January 23, 2004 17:28 IST

Pakistan may have played a critical role in helping North Korea build nuclear weapons capable of threatening Japan and even the United States, the International Institute for Strategic Studies says in its report on North Korea's weapons programme.

The report of the London-based IISS has been published in the same week that Pakistan's security agencies have been questioning leading scientists and military officers about the role they may have played in exporting nuclear weapons technology to Libya, Iran and North Korea.

Citing US press reports, the IISS says, "US intelligence believes that Pakistan may have provided North Korea with nuclear weapons design information and even supplies of high enriched uranium under the missile-for-nuclear [tech] barter agreement of the late 1990s.

"With North Korean and Pakistani nuclear and missile personnel apparently working closely together for several years, it is plausible that some discussion of weaponisation would take place."

The IISS identifies the father of the Pakistani nuclear programme, India-born Abdul Qadeer Khan, as the key contact between Pakistan and North Korea.

Describing his work for the European URENCO consortium, where he was employed as a metallurgist, the IISS report says he "obtained the designs for at least three types of centrifuges.

"The most advanced was the G-2, a German-designed, super critical centrifuge" that eventually "became the work horse of Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme after Khan returned home.

"By the 1990s Khan was also in charge of Pakistan's efforts to develop a nuclear-capable, long range, liquid-fuelled missile. Consequently, he became the principal point of contact with regard to nuclear and missile co-operation with North Korea, reportedly making numerous trips to North Korea beginning in the late 1990s."

The investigation by Pakistani security officers follows last month's disclosure by Saif ul Islam, the son of Libyan President Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, that Tripoli also imported some nuclear components from Pakistan.

Since then, the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency has unearthed evidence that uranium centrifuges discovered in Iran appear to be based on a Pakistani design.

The spate of claims about Pakistan's role in proliferation of nuclear weapons prompted Pakistan's High Commissioner in London Dr Maleeha Lodhi to insist earlier this week that her government is committed not to transfer nuclear technology to other countries, claiming that action would be taken against any individuals in her country who breach this commitment.

Addressing a seminar in London, Dr Lodhi said, "We are committed not to transfer nuclear technology. Certain facts have been brought to our attention and, as a result, there is an ongoing investigation.

"As a country that is committed to non-proliferation, we will take action against any individuals involved. The law will take its course, but let us not prejudge that anyone is guilty. Once the inquiry is concluded, we will decide what to do."

Meanwhile, the Pakistan Peoples Party headed by Benazir Bhutto has called for a parliamentary inquiry into how individual scientists could be responsible for nuclear exports.

"A full debate is necessary to see whether the Pak scientists did export technology for personal greed or whether they were being made scapegoats to save General Musharraf and his clique," a PPP spokesman said.

He added that the PPP had asked "whether General Musharraf was the in charge of nuclear control and command when the nuclear transfers took place...If so, then General Musharraf must answer the nation for jeopardising the nuclear assets.

"It may be recalled that in 1988, when the PPP assumed power, there was great international pressure for Pakistan to roll back its nuclear programme. The government of Benazir Bhutto initiated talks with concerned players and produced a consensus between the president, the prime minister and the armed forces as well as the international community to save the nuclear assets.

"Under this consensus, the Benazir Nuclear Doctrine was enunciated in which no export of nuclear technology was one of the guarantees that Islamabad gave the world community to save Pakistan's nuclear programme from a roll back.

"It was therefore shocking that as per the admission by Pak foreign office, export of nuclear technology did take place.

"Nation must know the exact dates when alleged export of nuclear technology took place. It is suspected that this export of nuclear technology took place when General Musharraf was the army chief and later chief executive. However, regime is refusing to release details which is causing more suspicions to arise.

"As army chief, General Musharraf would have been in charge of command and control of the nuclear facilities structure put formally into place in the second PPP government in 1993 to prevent individuals from acting individually.

"Musharraf has denied that his regime authorised transfers of nuclear technology to Iran, Libya, and North Korea. His representatives in the foreign office said it was the action of individuals."
To SD wallahs and its corps of South Asian experts

"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby jarugn » 23 Jan 2004 20:56

Musharaff confesses Pakistani scientists sold nuclear secrets - Finally!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 23 Jan 2004 21:04

Originally posted by jarugn:
Musharaff confesses Pakistani scientists sold nuclear secrets - Finally!

[URL=][/UR L]
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."
- Al Capone (1899-1947)

or in shudd Hindi 'Jab gaan* pe laath aur mooh pe jhapad lag gaye, sab kuch teek takh ho ga'

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby ldev » 23 Jan 2004 21:04

From the above article, this is Musharaff trying furiously to wriggle out:

And he stressed: "There is no such evidence that any
government personality or military personality was involved in
this at all."
But the IAEA is not buying this denial and while they may not "jump" to any conclusion, they appear to want to investigate Pakistani government involvement in this proliferation.

IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei was asked in Davos on Thursday
about reports that nuclear know-how and technology may have
reached Iran or Libya from Pakistan and replied:
"I think what we know is that there have been individuals
involved. I do not want to jump to conclusions and say a
government is involved."
The noose is tightening around Musharaff and the Paki nuclear establishment.

PS: One advantage of the IAEA doing the investigation is that it is much more difficult for the SD spin meisters to spin the results of the investigation for Musharaff's benefit.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby arun » 23 Jan 2004 21:30

Full Text of General Musharraf's interview with CNN.

Largely proliferation related with India and Afghanistan thrown in.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby SSridhar » 23 Jan 2004 21:31

Originally posted by jarugn:
Musharaff confesses Pakistani scientists sold nuclear secrets - Finally!
Nobody buys this, not even his own TSPians. In the tightly controlled and monitored Nukelaar world, such large scale clandestine dealings involving multiple countries over such long periods of time are not possible. The Governments (or, more precisely, the Army chiefs who effectively control TSP Nukelaar activities) ordered them to do all these. It is much like "disowning" the bodies of the NLII manure at Kargil.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Rich » 23 Jan 2004 21:39

CNN: Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf has vowed to prosecute any Pakistani nuclear experts who passed their knowledge to other countries.

IOW, "...we will find scapegoats to take the fall for the army's wrongdoings." :p Heck, they'd make you a national hero and a few years down the road, they'll hang you out to dry. More likely, you'll be like one of Xerox's cohorts, dragged out your home, in front of your wife and kids, kicking and screaming and taken to some unknown place for "debriefing". Remember, you need not have done anything wrong for this to happen to you.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby AJay » 23 Jan 2004 21:53

From article posted by John Umrao:
Pak helped North Korea build nukes: Report

Shyam Bhatia in London | January 23, 2004 17:28 IST
The IISS identifies the father of the Pakistani nuclear programme, India-born Abdul Qadeer Khan,
Why the gratuitous refernce to his being born in India?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Nikhil Shah » 23 Jan 2004 22:02

This thread is 1000% paisa wasool!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby VirenH » 23 Jan 2004 22:04

Why the gratuitous refernce to his being born in India?
AJay: A Q Khan had called Shyam Bhatia a "Hindu bas**rd" for exposing the theiving Khan about 2 decades ago. There was lenghty humrous essay by Bhatia in India Abroad about a week or two ago - there's no love lost between the two.
Don't worry - even Mushy is Indian-born...oops so was Jinnah :D

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Leonard » 23 Jan 2004 22:51

A Q Khan, Mushy, Jinnah were <u> MARS ARAB ALIENS </u>
:( :(

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Vivek K » 23 Jan 2004 22:56

Mush on the missing Paki journo - (CNN is requesting him to find the guy):

Musharraf: I will certainly do that but I hold him in the poorest of opinion -- a man contriving with the French journalists and trying to concoct a movie showing Pakistan in a bad light, he's a most unpatriotic man and doesn't deserve any sympathy whatsoever because he is trying to bring harm to my country, and he's the most unpatriotic man. They are trying to fabricate a story within Pakistan and purporting it to be Taliban activity from Pakistan in Afghanistan. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. However, now you have said he, I don't know where he is, I would like to find out where the hell he is.

Oops Mr Mush, your slip (true colors) is showing!!!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 23 Jan 2004 23:01

Why the gratuitous refernce to his being born in India?
yaar zara samjha karo

Even though born in a great country like India which helped him to get good education, after migrating to Paksistan, he became misguided element :) ( his missiles are misguided even now ;) ).

So its the company called Pakis that undoes the people

Hence came this Narayana(n guru) Suktam
"Destroy Pakistan give Peace a chance"

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Amber G. » 23 Jan 2004 23:14

Now, to all you Paklurks, lets imagine that say, you've had a real education. Would you really want to be a nuclear or rocket scientist in your own homeland? Heck, they'd make you a national hero and a few years down the road, they'll hang you out to dry.
A question, are any of these real scientists (as in degree in science etc)? For example, AQK reffered as 'nuclear physicst' is not correct. He was a thief (for sure), An engineer (may be) but he had no degree or expertise in physics. .. Are any of these scientists real scientists? (Say PhD in nuclear physics)

(I ask, because there are a very few physicst, i have heard about which are in (or educted in) Pakistan.)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 23 Jan 2004 23:32

You want to know how to become experts in Nooks and be hired as consultant to SD here is a primer.

Pakistan’s “Islamic Bomb”
Dr. George Perkovich
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
October 8, 2003

Dr. George Perkovich asserted that Pakistan’s nuclear ambition has its origin in Pakistani nationalism and its on-going dispute with India. International concern about Pakistan’s nuclear capability will only be relieved when the systemic problems in Pakistan that lead to its need for nuclear weapons are addressed.

<u> It was not until 1972 that Pakistan formally began efforts to acquire nuclear weapons, although Pakistan’s former Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s interest in nuclear weapons began in the 1960’s.</u>
<small> So the Bum making started even before India's peaceful Nuke in 1974 </small>

Bhutto believed that his government’s control of nuclear weapons would counter the powerful Pakistani army.
<small> See the Spin here of the author, to control ones own army the leader has got to have nookler bum </small>

In response to India’s nuclear declarations and their later nuclear weapons testing, Pakistan conducted it own tests in 1998.
<small> see this sudden leap of blind faith, and one got to have India in the picture, Perkovich no different from BRM article (by Shri Cohello a brilliant analyst based in India) on Shri Cohen Maha guru </small>

The rationale behind Pakistan’s pursuit of nuclear capabilities was not religious or cultural; rather, its basis was in Pakistani nationalism and its rivalry with India.
<small> so prophetic not religious or cultural motivation </small>
Given Pakistan’s nuclear capabilities, it is possibly the most dangerous country in the world.
<small> This is true statement</small>

Pakistan has not taken steps to harness information concerning its nuclear weapons development.
<small> This is equally true statement but with a twist, he forgets to mention that Pakistan did this proliferation willingly and wantonly</small>

In contrast, the five countries that legally posses nuclear weapons adhere to strict regulations regarding the development, testing, and accumulation nuclear weapons.
<small> dont yet roll on the floor, for he easily brushes aside the PRC proliferation</small>

Pakistan skillfully utilized and coordinated a worldwide network of small machine shops (throughout Europe, Canada, and the United States) to build the component parts of their nuclear bomb. The net result is a worldwide nuclear knowledge base that is no longer within Pakistani control.

<small> Perkovich makes it look like a giant step for mankind </small>

The international community is also concerned about the proliferation of weapons and weapons technology from Pakistan. The U.S. government alleges that Pakistan has aided North Korea in its capacity to enrich uranium by supplying blueprints and possibly components (despite a U.S.-North Korean agreement to freeze its plutonium-based program). Additionally, Iran’s nuclear enrichment program has a Pakistani merits additional concern. Yet there is broad disagreement about how Pakistani technology arrived in Iran. Was it the result of a Pakistani state decision to help Iran? Did North Korea provide knowledge and equipment to Iran, some of which originated from Pakistan?

<small> Atlast the Dr Genius comes out thinking loud </small>

Dr. Perkovich highlighted that in the whirlwind of anxiety surrounding the proliferation of nuclear weapons mere speculation should not serve as the basis for concern. Given the international perception of turmoil and conflict in the region, even the prospect of some tantalizing evidence can lead to action, such as preemptive action from Israel or the United States.

<small> so the prescription is no punishment but appeasement </small>

In this context, Dr. Perkovich supported already established risk-reduction measures between Pakistan and India.

<small> this is very very important attitude/ philosophical astuteness to develop which enables one to get a job in SD or in any peace college
as a professor </small>
Yet to truly address concerns over Pakistan’s nuclear capabilities, he encouraged policy makers to realistically examine systemic problems within Pakistan, such as the character and operation of the Pakistani state. True security will only be guaranteed when Pakistan’s army its grip on Pakistani society. A civilian government cannot function when it is under the thumb of the military. Ironically, for this process to successfully take place in Pakistan, the impetus for reform must originate in the military itself. Thus, the military must preside over its own strategic withdraw from Pakistani society.

<small> shall we do a stand up at this time for the brilliant Perkovich </small>

Disclaimer: Assertions and opinions in this Perspective are solely those of the above-mentioned author(s) and do not reflect necessarily the views of the Middle East Institute, which expressly does not take positions on Middle East policy.

Author: Dr. George Perkovich is the Vice President for Studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Before arriving in January 2002, he was the deputy director for programs and the director of the Secure World Program of the W. Alton Jones Foundation. Dr. Perkovich is the author of India’s Nuclear Bomb (University of California Press, 1999) and his other works have appeared in a range of publications, including Foreign Affairs, Atlantic Monthly, and the Wall Street Journal.

Attribution: Christel Poelman, B.A. graduate in History from Dordt College in Iowa in May 2003 wrote this brief. Julia Voelker of the MEI Publications Department and Ethan Arnheim of the MEI Programs Department edited it.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Umrao » 24 Jan 2004 00:14

Let us see the intent and rationality of Pakistan
(Certified Rational Nuclear Power By AASAAP.
well AASAP stands for American Association of South Asian Affairs Pundits)


"Two statements of key officials display an eagerness on the part of Pakistan to put this capability to use.
<u> In an article ‘‘Pakistan's Nuclear Future’’, published in ‘‘Pakistan And The Bomb’’ [ed. Samina Ahmed and David Cartright, Oxford University Press, 1998, P. 71] the well respected Pakistani scientist and academic Parvez Hoodbhoy quotes the former ISI director and subsequently Pakistani Ambassador to Germany, Lt. Gen.Assad Durrani (Retd.) :- "If" argues General Durrani……. "We were to make it clear that whatever nuclear deterrence we might have is primarily meant to deter the use of nuclear weapons from the other side, then by saying so we will fail to deter a conventional attack. ……." Therefore he reasons the other side must be led to believe that "We are primed, almost desperate to use our nuclear capabilities when our national objectives are threatened, (as) for example, a major crackdown on (the) freedom movement in Kashmir." </u> Equally revealing is what the former Pakistan Army Chief General Jehangir Karamat told the Pakistan Professional Forum at Dubai on Oct. 26, 2000 "no real peace process has been ever started between India and Pakistan which could decide against a military option and in favour of peace." [Dawn, Oct. 8 2000, as reported by Pot, Nov. 13, 2000, p. 4675] The two statements together signify that the military establishment believes that a military option is the more credible one and a nuclear strike can be triggered off even without an attack by India on Pakistan. This approach inverts the well understood Clausewitzian dictum that war is a continuation of politics in another form and creates the irrational postulate that war takes a precedence over politics for seeking solutions to problems between states.

<u>In the Indo Pakistani context this irrationality has been repeatedly at work from the Pakistani side. All the four wars imposed by Pakistan on India in 1947, 1965, 1971 and 1999 were a product of insane calculations, mad projections and inbred decisions.
There were three other wars which Pakistan considered but did not wage. The noteworthy character of each was that it had a nuclear component at a level reached by then by the Pakistani nuclear development programme. In the first case, in mid 1980s, Pakistan explored the use of nuclear weapons when it was wrongly led to believe in the possibility of an Indian air strike on the uranium enrichment plant at Kahuta. The second scenario was occasioned by the massive Indian military exercises, codenamed Brasstacks, in 1987. The third exercise was planned for April-May 1990 as a deterring action against India to prevent it from taking appropriate action to control the insurgency set into motion in J&K in 1989.</u>

The Indian authorities did not have a complete comprehension of the progress in the Pakistani nuclear development programme. By early 1980s some Pakistani nuclear devices had been cold tested and obviously could have been put to some use. By 1990, Pakistan had developed small bombs which could be delivered from an F-16. It did not take long to progress further delivery techniques through combat aircrafts. The techniques involved conventional freefall, loft bombing, toss bombing and low level lay down attack. Qualified Pakistanis have claimed that its combat aircrafts F-16, Mirage V and A-5 are all now capable of using any one of these techniques for delivery. Had the Pakistani establishment carried out its designs in any one of the three scenarios mentioned above, probably it would have come as a total surprise to India.
The Pakistani intention behind the April May 1990 episode came very close to execution. In Pakistan subsequently this crisis situation was described as the ‘‘Cuban Missile Crisis’’ of the subcontinent. The Americans were able to decipher Pakistani plans from the diverse clues they picked up and felt so alarmed that the US President sent his Deputy National Security Adviser Robert Gates to Islamabad in May 1990 to stop Pakistan in its tracks.

<small> so much for the pundits to tell us that TSP is rational</small>

His mission was successful. After Islamabad Gates visited Delhi also but he apparently did not disclose anything to Indian authorities about the close call or Pakistani nuclear planning. In India there was not the foggiest inkling about the Pakistani plans for a nuclear adventure. Western nuclear experts in various think tanks do not believe that there is more than 1% chance of a nuclear weapon power embarking on a nuclear strike. They and their followers in India tend to give the same margin of probability to a nuclear confrontation in the subcontinent.

However, the ground realities in the case of Pakistan are so different from what prevailed in the US-USSR relationship. The wishful thinking factor did not exist there as it exists here in Pakistan, nor the irrationality, the obsessive hatred, the closed mind.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 22 Jan 2004

Postby Rich » 24 Jan 2004 00:54

Originally posted by Amber G.:
A question, are any of these real scientists (as in degree in science etc)? For example, AQK reffered as 'nuclear physicst' is not correct. He was a thief (for sure), An engineer (may be) but he had no degree or expertise in physics. .. Are any of these scientists real scientists? (Say PhD in nuclear physics)

(I ask, because there are a very few physicst, i have heard about which are in (or educted in) Pakistan.)
You are absolutely right. Hence my emphasis on imagine. ;)

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