Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

shiv
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2004 05:37

Originally posted by AbhijeetV:
A request for those on this forum who are more on top of this story than I am. Can we have a list of links to articles about Pakistani proliferation from the last few months - opinion pieces plus news articles - posted here, perhaps like the first post on every Pakistan News and Discussion thread? It would be very helpful to have a handy list that can be posted on other forums. I will post that list on a different mailing list that I'm a member of. Thanks.
Nothing like a bit of DIY

Click on the link below, download both files and make a list of links and give US a copy as well:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=12

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2004 05:40

A couple of comments:

1)Why was Nixon so stupid? He could have extracted a public TV confession from the two guys who bugged the hotel and then pardoned them. All would have been well.

2)If China and the US are using Pakistan to hold back India - more power to them.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2004 05:43

Originally posted by sunil s:
I am still in deep shock over the news items that indicate that AQ Khan used BCCI accounts to manage profits of his trade in nuclear products.

It is going to be a while before I have anything to contribute to this thread.
Don't do this Sunil. I have pardoned Xerox Khan. All is well now. You can get back to normal.

This whole series of threads is stupid.

Come on folks - Pakistan has come clean, There was ONLY ONE proliferator - Xerox Khan, He has confessed.

All is over.

Time to pardon Pakistan and lock this thread. Nuclear technology is safe. It will no longer go to rogue states. Pakistan stands tall. All's well that ends well.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Kanu » 06 Feb 2004 05:43

Originally posted by shiv:
A couple of comments:

2)If China and the US are using Pakistan to hold back India - more power to them.
Explain pls.

Do you mean that the more they intervene the faster the fall of the current regime?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2004 05:53

Originally posted by Kanu:
Originally posted by shiv:
[b]
2)If China and the US are using Pakistan to hold back India - more power to them.
Explain pls.

Do you mean that the more they intervene the faster the fall of the current regime?[/b]
This is a digression - but I started it - so I must answer.

India is a bad country that needs to be held back by the only powerful, effective and coherent force in the world that can competently do the job. Pakistan is one such country and both the US and China have chosen well. I am not sure if you are reading up on history - I shall say no more on this subject except to inform you that you should read about 1971 - when India was all set to occupy Nepal, Sri Lanka and Burma when Pakistan intervened and stopped India with US and Chinese help.

The US and China know what they are doing when they help Pakistan - they are after all "all-knowing" P5 superpowers.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby jarugn » 06 Feb 2004 06:11

Pak nuclear proliferation - Tip of the iceberg!

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=488289

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Sam CS » 06 Feb 2004 06:35

Folks,

I am not sure what all of you are complaining about. Don't you see that Pakistan has finally taken the first step towards moderation and westernization ?

Every Thanksgiving day, the US President conducts a ceremony to pardon a turkey.

From now on, every Pakistan day, the Pak President will pardon a (black) sheep. :) Keep those proliferation leaks coming. Next year, it would be Saudi Arabia singing.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Umrao » 06 Feb 2004 07:02

did anybody record the Mushy rat address for posterity.

did anybody do a analysis of his body language.

did yo notice how the audience was squirming.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rangudu » 06 Feb 2004 07:15

I recorded the audio. I don't have a software to record the video stream on a PC.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Nandu » 06 Feb 2004 07:16

Qazi and Krepon were on The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer today, talking about AXK's pardon. Here is the realaudio link. Transcripts should be available tomorrow.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Umrao » 06 Feb 2004 07:31

Maaan some how I am getting bad vibes. :(

I have to buy Black Label pretty soon.

Mushy ka number agaya hai.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Amber G. » 06 Feb 2004 07:35

Come on folks - Pakistan has come clean,
Yes. How bold and straight-forward Pak is. Now it is Inida's turn and they should start investigating their scientists starting with Kalam. Everyone knows that India is known to be a "terrific" prolifilator and they are the one who are close to Iran and Israel.

(How long before you see this in one of the Pak papers.. if it is not already there)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rangudu » 06 Feb 2004 07:38

In the PBS Newshour link posted above, Paki Ambassador "Aimal" Qazi claimed that because Bush said that Paki nukes are safe, India must now follow Pakistan's example.

In other words, I lost my undie, so please you also lose yours :roll:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rye » 06 Feb 2004 07:41

Originally posted by Rangudu:
In other words, I lost my undie, so please you also lose yours
I wager the non-prolif crowd, of which Krepon is a cheer leader, will push for this too. No quicker way to destroy a lot of goodwill from the Indian side.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2004 07:45

I may be mistaken - these threads have been getting longer so fast - but just before Xerox's TV apology - when he had "disappeared" and there was news that he had sent a Telgi type "name-all" videotape to his daugther, there appeared to have been one news item which quoted Xerox's defence as follows:

"OK OK - I admit exporting this hardware to Libya, but just examine the stuff I exported. It can't really be used for enrichment "(it doesn't work" seemed to be implied) - therfore I am not guilty of proliferation"

Did anyone else read this - or am I imagining things from reading too many links?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rak » 06 Feb 2004 07:48

Originally posted by Rye:
I wager the non-prolif crowd, of which Krepon is a cheer leader, will push for this too. No quicker way to destroy a lot of goodwill from the Indian side.
Pakistan having lost their Honor and Dignity big time, is saying that to cover their GUBO sore. They have to drag India for every despicable act they are involved in. It is in their nature. They need a whip and a master to control them and this master is the great USofA. India just needs to keep quite. The non-proliferation crowd is a bunch of talkative jobless vagabonds. Let them talk all they want, any response to their chatter would mean that they are taken seriously.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Umrao » 06 Feb 2004 07:53

OK Folks tomorrow's HEAD LINES IN DUNG.

INDIAN SCIENTISTS SEEK ANTICIPATORY PARDONS!!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Feb 2004 07:54

Originally posted by Rye:
I wager the non-prolif crowd, of which Krepon is a cheer leader, will push for this too. No quicker way to destroy a lot of goodwill from the Indian side.
It's OK - we can ask for a pardon. No problem. Better still - we can test a few more nukes and get ABV/Sonia/Veerappan whoever is PM to ask for pardon on TV

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rak » 06 Feb 2004 07:56

Check out www.drudgereport.com

They have an article titled Nuclear Supermarket about TSP, and yet they show an Indian truck with Prithvi.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Nandu » 06 Feb 2004 08:00

Krepon didn't do too bad in that appearence. He didn't give in to any equal-equal by Qazi, and the only time he mentioned India was when he told Qazi that Pakistan should negotiate nuclear CBMs with India rather than hold the issue hostage to Kashmir.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Prof Raghu » 06 Feb 2004 08:03

And, if you click on that news item in Drudge, it makes for interesting reading:
[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/06/wnuke06.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/02/06/ixportaltop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=115123]The nuclear supermarket
By Anton La Guardia in Vienna, Ahmed Rashid in Lahore and Alec Russell in Washington[/url]

[...]
The extent of the Pakistan-based network became clear last night as a leading United Nations official said there was still an urgent need to "dry up the source".

The "supermarket", run by Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of the Pakistani bomb, was "the most dangerous phenomenon in proliferation for many years," said Mohammed ElBaradei, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the UN's nuclear watchdog.

"This is an area where we cannot act alone. We need the co-operation of intelligence agencies and governments. I expect everybody to chip in."

...

American sources said there were "suspicions" that Syria or Saudi Arabia were clients of Khan's network. They said Iran appeared to have bought more technology than it had declared.

Mr ElBaradei said: "Mr Khan is the tip of the iceberg. His confession raises more questions than it answers.

"A lot of other people are involved. Items were made in one country, assembled in others and shipped on false [certificates]."


Middlemen bought parts from half a dozen countries: Japan, Malaysia, South Africa, Germany and at least two other European countries.

...

Islamabad declared the scandal over, sticking to its claim that Khan had acted on his own, rather than with Pakistani military co-operation, as is widely suspected.

Gen Musharraf said he would not hand any documents about the scandal to UN inspectors.

"This is a sovereign country," he said. "No documents will be given. No independent investigation will take place here."


Washington and London have given strong indications that they are prepared to let the matter rest after behind-the-scenes pressure on the Pakistanis to come clean.

...

UN inspectors came across the first concrete reference to his trade in the mid-1990s in Iraq. They found a 1990 memorandum reporting an approach by a man named "Malik" who was relaying an offer from Khan to sell a nuclear bomb design and centrifuge parts for $5 million.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby James Bund » 06 Feb 2004 08:09

Ok let's try to keep on track here. The events of the last 2 months should be intepreted as flagging off the American drive to clean up Pakistan. If I can figure it out, so can the jihadis.(We can worry about India's nukes when and if the time comes (it won't).

What will teir response be.
-depose Musharaf...and invite the wrath of God.
-turn Pakistan into a theocracy and isolate itself in time-the 7th century.
-strike the great Satan...and get crushed.
-seethe with anger and...smile.
-turn into a liberal, secular democracy.

Any of these should suit India fine.Pakistan has been cut to size, this is as momentous an occassion as Dec 13 1971. How is India going to play it?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby svinayak » 06 Feb 2004 08:28

The moment has not come yet.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Amber G. » 06 Feb 2004 08:29

Mr Khan is the tip of the iceberg
You got it all wrong.. according to Qazi-uvach "tip of the iceberg" means it is not only Pakistan but many many other nations are involved.. :whine:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rye » 06 Feb 2004 09:07

Originally posted by Nandu:
Pakistan should negotiate nuclear CBMs with India rather than hold the issue hostage to Kashmir.
let us see now. The pakis are buck nekkid, and this non prolif mullah wants CBMs with India. If pakis do not have nukes, and nukes are controlled by the US, why have CBMs with the pakis?? Ah, my simple mind does not see through his charade of allowing the pakis to have all the fantastic nukes produced by Xerox Khan, so that the pretense of "nuclear flashpoint" is still maintained. How incredibly brilliant.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby SSridhar » 06 Feb 2004 09:08

Delving more into theocracy is what every successive govts of TSP has done since Ayub. That's what Zulfi did after the 1971 pain. Zia, BB and the CEO have followed in the same footsteps. Especially now, after the deal with MMA for continuing in power and uniform and the AXK episode, more theocracy is the only sure thing to happen.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rak » 06 Feb 2004 09:13

Originally posted by Rak:

They have an article titled Nuclear Supermarket about TSP, and yet they show an Indian truck with Prithvi.
Okay someone is checking the mails at Drudge. They have changed it.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Raahi » 06 Feb 2004 09:23

Originally posted by Rak:
Originally posted by Rak:

They have an article titled Nuclear Supermarket about TSP, and yet they show an Indian truck with Prithvi.
Okay someone is checking the mails at Drudge. They have changed it.
R: That's fantastic, did you email them? GOOD!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Nandu » 06 Feb 2004 09:34

Originally posted by Rye:
If pakis do not have nukes, and nukes are controlled by the US, why have CBMs with the pakis??
Rye, I do not subscribe to nook nood theory. I interpret what Krepon said as "no more nuclear blackmailing in the name of Kashmir". I can live with that.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rye » 06 Feb 2004 09:37

If we go back to Teresita Schaffer's report and all the talk about US efforts to westernize the pakistani army. I wager a Saudi Arabia like situation will happen in pakistan, with the army in place of the Saudi elite, and the mullahs herding the jihadis. Tons of dole will be passed from US coffers to Pakistan in the interest of "modernizing the curriculum".

The Saudi elite can throw around a lot of money they do not have, and their jihadi populace does not have access to guns and bombs, or heroin to fuel an insurgency. Thankfully, pakistan has them all.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rye » 06 Feb 2004 09:42

Originally posted by Nandu:
Rye, I do not subscribe to nook nood theory. I interpret what Krepon said as "no more nuclear blackmailing in the name of Kashmir". I can live with that.
Uh huh. Glad to know that the non prolif mullahs have calmed all your fears. I mean, where would we be without assurances as the above from the Krepons of the world, eh?

You failed to answer my question. If the US is in control of paki nukes, why have CBMs with pakistan?? I mean, surely the US is not going to willingly allow the pakis to use the nukes are they?? If they are, then clearly your interpretation contradicts your assertion that we need CBMs. Why have CBMs with a state that has no control over its nukes?? Is that any better than a nukeless state?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby SSridhar » 06 Feb 2004 10:00

Talbott's take on AXK.
We knew all along what was happening, but it is India's fault !

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Nandu » 06 Feb 2004 10:06

Rye, I never claimed that Paki nukes are safe or are under US control. Good night.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Rye » 06 Feb 2004 10:10

Originally posted by Nandu:
Rye, I never claimed that Paki nukes are safe or are under US control. Good night.
Well, I am glad Krepon has calmed your fears of an impeding holocaust then. sweet dreams.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby SSridhar » 06 Feb 2004 10:40

The CEO asks the TSP media to lie.
Frank admission...and comical at times.

He said that some people in the domestic media were indulging in what he called emotionalism and sensationalism and creating doubts about their country. He said they did not understand what would happen to Pakistan if the government, the army or both were implicated in nuclear proliferation.

"The UN Security Council will immediately impose sanctions against us, next we will be asked to sign the NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty) and the CTBT (Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty) and roll back, then we will be declared a rogue state and finally our vital interests would come under imminent physical danger," he warned.

He said that for him Pakistan came first and everything else was secondary. "In the first place you (the media) should play a more responsible role in this matter and secondly,[color="red"] even if for the sake of argument it is accepted that the government and the army were involved in the affair, do you think it will serve our national interest to shout about it from the roof-top?"</font>

The president responded with an emphatic 'No' when a foreign correspondent asked him if he was prepared to hand over all the documentary evidence gathered against the scientists, allow a full and independent investigation into allegations of nuclear proliferation and bring Pakistan's weapons programme under the supervision of the UN.

He agreed with a suggestion that intelligence agencies should have investigated Dr Khan when he was spending left and right, "but then, that too had to be ignored because<u> we were ourselves procuring material from the international black market."</u>

He reiterated his charge that Dr Khan and his associates were motivated only by greed and nothing else and refused to explain what Dr Khan meant when he said in his TV confession that he had acted "in good faith" and there was an "error of judgement."

Asked if the world would pardon Dr Khan as he had done, the president said: "Leave it to me. I am standing between Dr Khan and the world community. Nothing will happen to him."

When asked would the world not use against Pakistan, at some future point, the evidence that had been gathered about nuclear proliferation, the president said: "If we walk the right path, nothing like that would ever happen."

Referring to Dr Khan's fate, he said he (the president) had to fulfil the international requirements and, at the same time, he had also to shield the doctor and [color="red"]"this was the minimum that I could have done to shield him." </font>

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby James Bund » 06 Feb 2004 10:43

"If we walk the right path, nothing like that would ever happen."

I love it when he salutes and says yas sar.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby SSridhar » 06 Feb 2004 11:41

Ayaz Amir's take on the farcical AXK apology .
But just as madams with a past don't flaunt their past, it hasn't served Pakistan's interests to go about uncovering its nuclear past in such a blithe manner.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Tamang » 06 Feb 2004 12:56

Mushi's press *de-briefing* was hilarious...after he is sacked by another general in Pakistan's national interest he is going to be flooded with offers from Lollywood I am sure... :D

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby SSridhar » 06 Feb 2004 15:43

India's first reaction: Nuke proliferation not internal matter of TSP {temp. link}
In its first official reaction to admission by Pakistan's top scientist A Q Khan, of providing sensitive technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya, India today said it was "not an internal matter" of Pakistan and the matter has to be debated in the IAEA and elsewhere for a "more responsible" behaviour from countries with nuclear capability.

"Obviously, there were some charges and the Pakistan Cabinet decided to recommend to President (Pervez Musharraf) that A Q Khan should be pardoned. The Pakistan President has pardoned him," External Affairs Minister Yashwant Sinha, said at a joint press conference with his British counterpart Jack Straw.

He said "obviously, it appears to me that things will not stop here because it is not merely an internal matter of Pakistan but it is a matter concerning the entire international community. [color="red"]Pakistan itself is not a signatory to the NPT but Libya and Iran are".</font>

New Delhi's reaction assumes significance in the wake of the US terming the Presidential pardon to Khan as an internal matter of Pakistan.

"These are issues which will have to be debated in the IAEA and elsewhere so that we have a<u> more responsible behaviour</u> from countries which have nuclear capability," he said.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004

Postby Kuttan » 06 Feb 2004 16:26

From mushwhines:

and finally our vital interests would come under imminent physical danger," he warned.
Minor misunderstanding alert!!! :eek:

He's not referring to "our" as in "TSP's". He is using the Dictatorial Plural to refer to what Amritraj will do to him on the next "friendly soccer visit".

As we all know, TSP's "strategic assets" went down the same tubes as their "H&D".

"Gone with the Wind". :whine:


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