Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Sunil · Post by **Sunil** » 10 Feb 2004 19:17

changed after reading Arun_Gupta's post.

Mansoor ijaz is looking for ways to spread the blame around. If you notice kasuri and company are looking to blame germans and other europeans, ijaz wants to do the same. Perhaps the administration wants to use this to leverage the europeans?

Raj,

see YIPs post about the mujrewali and here qadardaans and meherbaans.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 10 Feb 2004 19:28

well said shiv.
How much can we tell our folks that Mushy is the long end of RAW.

If uncle says Go you will see RAW destruction of Pakis with in few hours.

I dont want to do Geraldo here but, Gen Paddy said that much and I quote
'We had them by their tails'

The patriotic Pakistanis will soon realize that much about Mushy, keep faith, there is hope for even Pakistanis if they act now against Mushy.

But time running out....

Vikram · Post by **Vikram** » 10 Feb 2004 19:43

Pakistani to keep nuke riches

Pakistan's nuclear polemic

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 10 Feb 2004 19:45

Originally posted by SaiP:

Originally posted by Nandu:
Hoagland>> Pakistan's Nuclear Ali Baba

Er... Ali Baba was the good guy, not the thief!
Yea, he is. Just like people think Frankenstein is the monster.

'Open Sesame' Ali Baba did clear out the thieves' cave of all its loot. While stealing from thieves may be a good thing, it does not make Ali Baba an unthief himself

Thief stealing from thieves may be a good analogy of Khan and the Paki nuke program.

suryavir · Post by **suryavir** » 10 Feb 2004 20:06

Posted by Raj Singh:

Suryavir

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
despite the sugar-coated pronouncements that official Washington makes about Musharraf's support, there is no question now that most in the media and the security industry are very seriously worried about Pakistan. Pakistan is the world's number one problem is not just the view of ("biased") Indians anymore. The events of 911 and continuing todate with the revelations of Paki proliferation are finally revealing to the world what the Paks are all about, that this is not merely an hyperactive India imagination.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Dr Tim Hoyt says..

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a substantial element in the US, however, that continues to look at North Korea as the primary problem here, and Pakistan is just emerging as a major danger. Selig Harrison is an interesting bird in this regard (and often ignored in DC), because he's calling for a hard line on Pakistan, and appeasement of NOrth Korea.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guess there is not much to add on this.....

I read Dr. Hoyt's comment too and was very surprised. As I understand another of Dr. Hoyt's posts, he also apparently believes that AQ Khan proliferated the nukes as a "pariah," implying that this was a one-man operation not sanctioned by the Gov of Pakistan. You have read one editorial and op-ed piece after another in this thread, from all over the world. I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that very, very few people in this world believe that what AQ Khan did was a solo operation. So if you choose to believe Dr. Hoyt, that is entirely your prerogative. Newspapers across the US and the world do not share Dr. Hoyt's perceptions.

George Perkovich, another recognized non- proliferation "expert," says that AQ Khan proliferated for money, not for an Islamic cause. It is startling and frightening that these so-called experts are so damned ignorant about the most elementary matters in their own areas of so-called expertise.

The US, like India, is a huge country and there are all sorts of people with all sorts of opinion. So if you choose to believe the fiction of Dr. Hoyt and Perkovich and some isolated experts as representing the consensus view in the US, you are free to do that. The weight of published opinion does not support that.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Feb 2004 20:11

John Bolton in San Francisco Chronicle:

Nuclear know-how feared widespread
U.S. concerned Pakistani secrets are circulating

James Sterngold, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, February 10, 2004

The administration's top arms control official said Monday the United States is concerned that a nuclear weapons proliferation ring run by a Pakistani lab may have spread banned arms to states beyond Iran, North Korea and Libya, which bought the weapons technology from Pakistani scientists.

John Bolton, the undersecretary of state for arms control and international security, said in a telephone interview with The Chronicle that Washington has accepted the Pakistani government's explanation that a small number of rogue scientists were acting on their own, without the government's knowledge, when they sold technology for enriching uranium as well as warhead designs to Iran, North Korea and Libya.

But he said an urgent concern is whether other nations also may have acquired secrets from the Pakistani scientists and whether any of the buyers later resold nuclear arms technology to other hostile countries or groups. "If part of that network is exposed, you don't really know whether you've exposed all of it or not, or brought it down," he said.

Bolton refused to provide details or mention specific countries, citing concerns about sensitive intelligence, but he said black-market rings trafficking in nuclear technology, parts and components are so wide and extensive that shutting them down, even after the admissions by the Pakistani scientists, is proving to be an enormous challenge.

"One of the things that's been of concern for this administration from the beginning is the depth and complexity of the global black market in WMD (weapons of mass destruction) materials," he said.

The Bush administration has scored a string of successes, as well as encountering deeply troubling and dark surprises, in recent months in its effort to contain the spread of nuclear warheads, which the president has said is the single greatest threat to the United States.

It scored major successes when Libya announced in December that it was abandoning its programs for developing weapons of mass destruction and when Iran agreed in principle to allow more rigorous international inspections of its nuclear labs. Even North Korea has admitted publicly that it has built at least a few nuclear weapons and has agreed to negotiations with the United States, as well as China and other Asian countries, on conditions for a possible freeze in the program.

But the administration has struggled in recent weeks to deal with the disclosures coming out of Pakistan, which have confronted the United States with the real possibility that one of its closest allies in the war on terror has also provided America's most implacable enemies with the secret to developing the ultimate weapons of mass destruction.

Abdul Qadeer Khan, who is considered the father of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program and a national hero, said in a televised mea culpa Wednesday that he sold technology for enriching uranium for bombs with the assistance of a handful of other top scientists, all of whom work within the government's weapons complex.

Echoing claims made by Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Khan said he and the other scientists had been motivated by greed and operated without the knowledge of the government or military. The day after Khan's confession, Musharraf pardoned him.

On Monday, Musharraf admitted to the New York Times that he had suspicions about Khan's activities for three years but said the United States had not provided convincing proof that Khan was selling nuclear weapons technology. Because of his fears, Musharraf said, he removed Khan from his position as head of the weapons lab in 2001. But instead of sidelining the revered scientist, which would have angered many Pakistanis, he made him a special adviser to the government.

Many nuclear experts have expressed deep doubts about Khan's claim that he acted virtually alone.

"It's simply impossible to accept" that Khan acted without the government's knowledge, said Jon Wolfsthal, a former U.S. weapons inspector and now deputy director of the Nonproliferation Project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. "No one seriously believes Khan was a rogue. "

But President Bush has said he accepts Pakistan's assurances, and Bolton said in the interview that the United States had independent information suggesting they are backed by facts.

"It's consistent with what we believe ourselves," said Bolton. "As best we can tell -- not simply based on the assertions by Musharraf -- Khan was doing this on his own with a network of suppliers and contacts and middlemen around the world that were able to produce components of a nuclear weapons program that he sold at great profit."

He added, "I don't think that just because a Pakistani ... was the ringleader you should assume that the government of Pakistan was involved."

Even within Pakistan, however, some have expressed doubts and are demanding an independent inquiry to determine whether any members of the government or the military, which maintains strict control over the nuclear program, were aware of the illicit sales or participated in it.

On Monday, former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's Pakistan Muslim League and former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party called for a parliamentary debate and an investigation into the affair amid concerns that Khan is being made a scapegoat for the military.

"The people of Pakistan clearly feel that the apology and confession obtained from Dr. Khan were obtained under pressure, and the whole world seems to feel this process has basically been a coverup," said Muslim League leader Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan.

On Monday, Pakistan left open the option of criminal prosecution against Khan, saying the presidential pardon he was awarded could be revised if new revelations came to light. "This is not a blanket pardon,'' Foreign Ministry spokesman Masood Khan said, adding that Abdul Qadeer Khan is cooperating with the government's probe.

Asked if there were concerns that Syria had purchased the technology to build nuclear weapons from the Pakistani scientists, Bolton refused to comment directly.

But in testimony last September before a House subcommittee on the Middle East and Central Asia, he identified Syria as having a number of successful programs aimed at developing weapons of mass destruction.

"There is no graver threat to our country today than states that both sponsor terrorism and possess or aspire to possess weapons of mass destruction, " Bolton told the subcommittee. He added that Syria "falls into this category of states of potential dual threat."

Despite these uncertainties and the potential threat they pose for the United States, Bolton described the disclosures in Pakistan as a major success, particularly for U.S. intelligence agencies, which are being criticized for improperly claiming before the war in Iraq that Saddam Hussein had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

"You have to understand that this is a great intelligence success," Bolton said of the Pakistani revelations, "and the direction we're going in is an enormous victory in the overall campaign against WMD proliferation."

Chronicle correspondent Juliette Terzieff in Pakistan and Chronicle news services contributed to this report.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 10 Feb 2004 20:18

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but I had not read it, so I am going ahead and posting the link from fas.org

Dr AQ Khan's speech to Pakistan

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/nuke/aqkhan020404.html

Very interesting language in there. Worth a read!

member_6074 · Post by **member_6074** » 10 Feb 2004 20:21

Khan Job

Dr. A. Q. Khan is the Dr. Strangelove of Pakistan, the "father" of their bomb and, says a former associate, a crusader for its testing . . . on humans. On April 25, 1998, Kahn met at the Kushab Research Center with General Jehangir Karamat, then army chief of staff, to plan a possible preemptive nuclear strike on New Delhi, India. The Saudis lit a fuse under this demented scheme by telling Pakistan intelligence that Israel had shipped India warplanes in preparation for a conventional attack on Pakistan. We only know these details because a young researcher who claims he was at the meeting wrote a horrified letter threatening to make the plan to bomb India public, a threat which appears to have halted the scheme.

After writing down his objections, the whistle-blower, Iftikhar Khan-Chaudhry, ran for his life to London, then the USA, seeking asylum. Khan-Chaudhry, when questioned, seemed to know too little to be the top nuclear physicist he claimed, and far too much about A. Q. Khan's bomb factory to be the tile company accountant Pakistan claims. Pakistan police, failing to arrest him, jailed, beat and raped his wife, suggesting they wanted him to keep secret something more interesting than bookkeeping methods.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 10 Feb 2004 20:21

suryavir>

South Asian experts speak nothing but truth under oath onlee, at all other times they are factual.

Anyways to each his own agenda.
"There is only one truth and that is above"
Spinster

"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied."
Otto Von Bismark.

Raj Singh · Post by **Raj Singh** » 10 Feb 2004 20:23

Suryavir

So if you choose to believe Dr. Hoyt, that is entirely your prerogative. Newspapers across the US and the world do not share Dr. Hoyt's perceptions.

It is not a matter of my choosing to believe what Dr Tim Hoyt has said or says but it is about the reflection of the thought process which is going on in US. Few newspaper articles here and there do not make that much difference. Especially when it comes to the establishment. Within the US establishment, it is quite possible that even now, Pakistan is not seen as a major threat to US or its interests, as is seen by Indians on this board and or otherwise. Or perhaps, US establishment believes, even if Pakistan is a threat, it is containable.

Point is, perceptions could be quite different. What may seem very logical to you (not you personally)may not necessarily be the same for someone else. For, someone else, in this instance US, does have its own logic. Whatever that may be. It is apparent that something, some logic is there in their own minds/perceptions otherwise things would have gone as per the desire shown by many here, with regard to Pakistan. But, as we know, things have not happened to Pakistan which should (?/a questionable term here))have happened. It is keeping things like these in mind I had commented/questioned earlier about a particular thought process of Indians in this particular context.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 10 Feb 2004 20:29

raj singh saab>> dont worry,
"Threats are not usually seen, they are only felt by the after effects" Spinster

I can give any number of examples from
pearl harbor to 9-11.

Somebody should remind folks all the Hijackers were from KSA/Pakistani trained, yet Pakistan is a worthy allie.

suryavir · Post by **suryavir** » 10 Feb 2004 20:42

Raj Singh, it is clear that the Bush Administration has made a political judgment that accepting the charade of the Khan apology and pardon - the barest of figleafs if one ever saw it - is the best political course of action because they do not want Musharraf to be destabilized.

Now if Dr. Hoyt or others wish to tow the Administration's line because it is politically the only pragmatic course of action, that is understandable - even though many (and not just Indians or Indian Americans) think this is a grave error of judgment.

However, it is troublesome if a security expert who apparently is not or should not be beholden to the Administration, purveys the Administration's position as a true, factual account and not as the political judgment that it was; then we have a problem. Either he is not telling the truth or he is ignorant, or both.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Feb 2004 20:48

The Dragon deigns to take notice of its ally's shenanigan's complete with pre emptive(?) statement that it has nothing to do with the proliferation :

China pledges opposition to proliferation on reported Pakistani-N. Korea deal

(AFP)
10 February 2004

BEIJING - China Tuesday reacted to revelations North Korea had received Pakistani nuclear secrets, saying it opposed proliferation and did not believe sensitive Chinese technology had been passed on to Pyongyang.

“China’s position is very clear. We attach great importance to, and resolutely oppose the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction,” foreign ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue told a regular briefing.

Pakistan’s leading nuclear scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, admitted last week he had passed on nuclear secrets to North Korea, Iran and Libya.

North Korea said Tuesday the charge was a “sheer lie.”

China allegedly assisted Pakistan’s nuclear program in the past, but that assistance has reportedly been halted. any suggestion or allegation accusing China of proliferation is baseless

“In recent years, China has adopted a series of measures to step up its control of the export of such technology. The measures we have adopted are now guaranteed by legal means,” she said.

“Therefore, any suggestion or allegation accusing China of proliferation is baseless ,” she said.

China pledges opposition to proliferation on reported Pakistani-N. Korea deal.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 10 Feb 2004 20:57

Folks listen to Kevin Philips castigate the Bush family on NPR in the Dianne Rheme show as I post.

This show is going please Rahul Mehta's heart.
Talks about MIC OIL manipulation of the greatest democracy.

"There is money to be made in every war" seems to be the motto.

Also Hali Burton is being investigated by Kuwait.

read
here about his latest book.

http://www.bevsbest.com/Authors-Books-4/Kevin-Phillips/Kevin-Philips.htm

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Feb 2004 21:01

Insnt NoKo in a fix after ACK revelations? Does their deterrent work or not?

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 10 Feb 2004 21:01

Dr. Khan is a doomed man. The pardon sealed his fate. He is a mortal enemy of America and he is walking free. According to Bush's war on terrorism precepts, that is a no-no. Let's wait and see. I predict a car ambush or maybe an airplane explosion. How's it feel Dr. Khan to look over your shoulder all the time? Above all else, I know how America thinks.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Feb 2004 21:23

In recent years,</font> China has adopted a series of measures to step up its control of the export of such technology. The measures we have adopted are now guaranteed by legal means,” she said.

The Chinese are doing a semantic jugglery here.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 10 Feb 2004 21:28

I second TSJ (at last he is turning around to look at the truth and reality, BRF can educate indeed)

TSJ you forgot another washington prefered solution, a peaceful Nuke could explode under Dr. Khan's chair, and death certificate would read shock and severe cardiac arrest.

Mushy's Eulogy would read, "Khan died in peace for peaceful cause"

What do you think lost almost labs are doing, building small nukes to bust the buts of rogue nation leaders.

Please continue to study "BRF where tomorrow comes today, while other await it dawn"

Better now than never.

Raj Singh · Post by **Raj Singh** » 10 Feb 2004 21:43

Sunil S

I acknowledge having seen your post, suggesting, to read Y I Patel's post.

Raj Singh · Post by **Raj Singh** » 10 Feb 2004 21:47

TS Jones

The pardon sealed his fate.

This does make lot of sense. Actually, vaguely/sub consciously this thought did occur to me when this whole drama of accepting the guilt and pardoning took place. But, I could not put my finger at it.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 10 Feb 2004 21:48

Just for the records: India has not forgotten Dr. Homi Bhabha who died in one such mysterious aircrash (Jan 24th 1966).

I don't care about the disgraced thug A.Q.Khan. It is Khan who truly deserves the fate that had befallen the scholar-scientist Dr. Homi Bhabha.

It is widely suspected that Western Intelligence agencies were responsible for the crash of the airplane that ferried Dr. Bhabha.

R> Krithivas

Originally posted by TSJones:
Dr. Khan is a doomed man. The pardon sealed his fate. He is a mortal enemy of America and he is walking free. According to Bush's war on terrorism precepts, that is a no-no. Let's wait and see. I predict a car ambush or maybe an airplane explosion. How's it feel Dr. Khan to look over your shoulder all the time? Above all else, I know how America thinks.

Raj Singh · Post by **Raj Singh** » 10 Feb 2004 22:13

Suryavir

it is clear that the Bush Administration has made a political judgment that accepting the charade of the Khan apology and pardon - the barest of figleafs if one ever saw it - is the best political course of action because they do not want Musharraf to be destabilized.

Now if Dr. Hoyt or others wish to tow the Administration's line because it is politically the only pragmatic course of action, that is understandable - even though many (and not just Indians or Indian Americans) think this is a grave error of judgment.

However, it is troublesome if a security expert who apparently is not or should not be beholden to the Administration, purveys the Administration's position as a true, factual account and not as the political judgment that it was; then we have a problem. Either he is not telling the truth or he is ignorant, or both.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me try to put this whole thing in India/Pakistan context. I would request you to not to go just by words but the message/analogy (?).

Quite a many maharathis on this very forum not only are of the opinion but believe also that Pakistan's disintegration would be the best course for India. They also make very persuasive, logical, rational arguements too, to support their case. They are not alone. Some like B Raman, KPS Gill too have been holding almost similar position and have been saying this for quite a while. They are not wrong in what they are saying. They just believe that they are right their way/method is a better one. Then, there are some here and otherwise who believe that Pakistan should just leave India alone and everything would be hunky dory. To me, they are just living in some world which is ................You also have forumites here and otherwise who believe, there should be people to people contacts, trade, commerce and so on (there could be some more categories who believe in the combination these and perhaps some more).

Now here is the question/problem about perceptions/realty/logic.

Recall, people in the first category have been making very sound arguements and they indeed have a voice also which is listened to in the corridors of power in India. However, when a hawk like Mr Advani talks about having economic confedration between India/Pakistan (basically, this view has been expressed and has full support of people like Kuldip Nayyar, but they are termed as pinkos), likes Togadia and others blow hot and cold on Pakistan, then one starts wondering about reality, logic.

I have already stated that those who want to see Pakistan disintegrated are not wrong. So does it mean that Indian politicians/present govt is wrong? Not necessarily. Then why is it that when the case of Pakistan's disintegration is so strong but Indian govt seems to be going completely in a different direction? Is Indian govt doing something illogical?

Now apply the same in US/Pakistan/India's situation. Indians on this forum and some in the media may be looking at things from one perspective but US govt maybe looking at things from another perspective too.

A lot more can be added here but I think, you will get the message.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » 10 Feb 2004 22:15

Suryavir,

You misunderstood - but perhaps I was not clear. I was referring to a network of "pariah states" - Israel, Taiwan, and South Africa - that cooperated in developing and sharing conventional weapons technologies (and probably some nuclear technologies, too, although Taiwan's efforts got shut down) in the 1970s. My comparison was with that network of states(1970s) to the current network of Iran, Pakistan, and North Korea (1980s-2003). This has nothing to do with individuals - Pakistan's nuclear trade clearly got signed off on at a very high level, if not indeed the highest level. The military industries and research bureaus of all three states appear to be cooperating in mutually reinforcing ways, in both missile and nuclear arenas.

Regarding the media - you're right, overall media traffic has been (deservedly) condemning of Pakistan. That is clearly (at least to me) not the perspective of Washington, on either side of the political aisle or in the major bureaucracies - and certainly not in the White House.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 10 Feb 2004 22:26

If one believes that Dr A.Q Khan's proliferation was a private affair, with no official involvement of Paki government/military, then one must postulate that North Korea sold missiles/missiles technology to Pakistan for considerations other than nuclear help (e.g, cash or foodgrain); and that Dr. Khan could commandeer, even post 9/11, a military transport plane to fly to North Korea, and have it loaded at a Paki air force base, get clearance to fly over China, etc., with no questions asked, and no notification of these events moving up the chain of command. And if one believes all this, then one must ask what precisely does Musharraf control, and why is he deemed useful?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Feb 2004 22:26

Regarding the media - you're right, overall media traffic has been (deservedly) condemning of Pakistan. That is clearly (at least to me) not the perspective of Washington, on either side of the political aisle or in the major bureaucracies - and certainly not in the White House.

Tim, why the lack of interest on either side and the officialdom? What could be the drivers?Isnt Non Prolif important anymore or are there other interests driving it? If so what are they? Would help clarify the situation a little bit. Thanks, ramana

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Feb 2004 22:41

Originally posted by Vidur:
Khan Job

Dr. A. Q. Khan is the Dr. Strangelove of Pakistan, the "father" of their bomb and, says a former associate, a crusader for its testing . . . on humans. On April 25, 1998</font>, Kahn met at the Kushab Research Center with General Jehangir Karamat, then army chief of staff, to plan a possible preemptive nuclear strike on New Delhi, India. The Saudis lit a fuse under this demented scheme by telling Pakistan intelligence that Israel had shipped India warplanes in preparation for a conventional attack on Pakistan.

---

This is exactly 18 days before India tested the POKII.

Aarya · Post by **Aarya** » 10 Feb 2004 22:57

Originally posted by ramana:
Tim, why the lack of interest on either side and the officialdom? What could be the drivers?Isnt Non Prolif important anymore or are there other interests driving it? If so what are they? Would help clarify the situation a little bit. Thanks, ramana

I am not Tim, pardon me for jumping in.

US fears what might come after Musharraf. They fear the radical mullahs and/or generals might gain control over the paki nukes and might even pass them on to al qaeda types. As long as Musharraf is dancing to Washington's tunes, they dont have any incentive to push him in the corner. They also know, mushy has to speak differently to papis, hence they tolerate the trash that come out of his mouth in urdu.

Another important factor is, elections this year. Iraq has completely over shadowed War on Terrorism. That is a liability to the administration. Bush needs to show success in War on Terrorism and fast. Best bet for that is, use Musharraf and his men to raid FATA and nab couple of Al Qaeda/Taliban big wigs.

suryavir · Post by **suryavir** » 10 Feb 2004 23:08

Posted by TSJ:

Dr. Khan is a doomed man. The pardon sealed his fate. He is a mortal enemy of America and he is walking free. According to Bush's war on terrorism precepts, that is a no-no. Let's wait and see. I predict a car ambush or maybe an airplane explosion. How's it feel Dr. Khan to look over your shoulder all the time? Above all else, I know how America thinks.

This sadly reflects how official propaganda filters down to the average American, no offense intended to you, TSJ. The underling who did the work at the behest and direction of his political and military masters should be rewarded with calamitous death, but the dictator who was consciously responsible for all of the underling's work must be feted in Washington, showered with billions of dollars, and called the most trusted ally!! The simultaneous hilarity and tragedy here beats any drama that Shakespeare could have conjured.

suryavir · Post by **suryavir** » 10 Feb 2004 23:19

Now apply the same in US/Pakistan/India's situation. Indians on this forum and some in the media may be looking at things from one perspective but US govt maybe looking at things from another perspective too.

Raj, I do not disagree that official Washington has chosen to see things in a particular perspective for purposes of political expediency, and has decided to give the suitable spin to it. My point was that the media across the US and some security analysts (though not all) are now seriously worried about the threats created by Pakistan and are questioning the Administration's policy on Pakistan. In the past India's concerns have been more or less dismissed as being biased by the same people. Now the realization is dawning as to how dangerous a state Pakistan is. Since the Administration has elected a certain political course, the statements from official Washington will necessarily support that course of action. You will not hear publicly what the inner thoughts and deliberations are.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 10 Feb 2004 23:31

The fear of unknown has never stopped GOTUS from doing what it does.

The more pertinent question
What does the administration have in it to do?

1) Will an action increase my Prez poll ratings.
2) Is it going to be cakewalk (like the moment Saddam was wMD nanga he was sitting duck.)
3) Is it going to be helpful to all my election effort sponsoring companies and individuals (one does not attend 10,000 plate fund raising events for nothing.)?
4) Is it going to be pleasant diversionary tactic from the hot potato in hand?

For 5 thru rest rent the "Wag the Dog movie" and enjoy.

Mushy or no Mushy, if the national interests are aligned with radical mullah that doesn’t stop cuddling mullahs.

Is anybody under any illusion that If Pakistan is bombed by unkil they will fire a freshly imported Shaheen 2 ?

Every individual optimizes the utility curve period.

suryavir · Post by **suryavir** » 10 Feb 2004 23:40

Posted by Tim:

This has nothing to do with individuals - Pakistan's nuclear trade clearly got signed off on at a very high level, if not indeed the highest level. The military industries and research bureaus of all three states appear to be cooperating in mutually reinforcing ways, in both missile and nuclear arenas.

Regarding the media - you're right, overall media traffic has been (deservedly) condemning of Pakistan. That is clearly (at least to me) not the perspective of Washington, on either side of the political aisle or in the major bureaucracies - and certainly not in the White House.

Thanks for the clarification, Tim, and my apologies for misunderstanding your viewpoint on whether the highest levels of Pakistan's government are complicit in the shenanigans that have been now laid exclusively at AQ Khan's door.

We have of course heard the spin put on by the Administration. It's interesting that the media this time around has not accepted the Administration's viewpoint in toto, and has been (deservedly) harsh on Pakistan. I am not sure what Congress' silence heretofore implies. Too much deference? Perhaps reliance on classified briefings that the US has control of the Paki nukes? It is difficult to say. However, if the Administration treats this as business as usual, meaning no fall-out from these revelations, I believe it will be a dereliction of duty by the Administration of the highest order. Unless urgent and dramatic steps are taken, we may be indeed faced with 911 with nuke scenario in the not-too distant future.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 10 Feb 2004 23:43

'Pak Army never controlled Nukes'

PTI[ TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 2004 10:36:44 PM ]

<< Previous | 1 | 2 |
Questioned on an allegation from the former US ambassador to Pakistan, Robert Oakley, that Gen Beg had talked to him about sharing nuclear know-how with Iranian National Guards, he said: "If at all there were such intention, I think Robert Oakley would have been the last person I could have talked to about such sensitive things.

To be very honest, I never liked his face, because he as Ambassador had been acting as a viceroy of Pakistan, and I had to tick him off on certain occasions."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-488670,curpg-2.cms
****
meanwhile
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-488331,curpg-2.cms
Libya denies 'selling out' Khan
RASHMEE Z. AHMED

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 2004 07:53:02 PM ]

LONDON: Libya has denied it shopped Pakistan and its chief nuclear weapons scientist, Dr Abdul Qadir Khan to the US and UK, in a desire to worm its way into Western affections after nearly half-a-century out in the cold.

In fact, Colonel Gaddafi’s emissary said Tuesday in London that West "already knew about him (Khan) they never asked and we never gave any information".

Tuesday’s comments came from Libyan foreign minister Abdul Rahman Shalgam, whose UK visit was described by British foreign secretary Jack Straw as "historic".

And offering a uniquely Arabic simile, Shalgam insisted that all its "know-how", which is thought to be acquired from Pakistan, and all its "scientists" did not lead Tripoli to develop a nuclear weapon.

He said, "the presence of flour, water and fire does not mean that you’ve actually got bread".

Analysts said Libya’s very-public insistence, before the world’s press in London, that Tripoli did not inform on Pakistan and Khan may be calculated to help build up pressure on Islamabad.

Tripoli’s protestations of innocence about the Pakistan expose is only the latest step of a carefully-choreographed sequence of events, which began last March with secret negotiations between Libyan, British and American officials about Libya's weapons programmes.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 10 Feb 2004 23:53

Originally posted by acharya:
This is exactly 18 days before India tested the POKII.

And 19 days after the Nodong (aka Ghauri) test of April 6, 1998.

Raj Singh · Post by **Raj Singh** » 11 Feb 2004 00:04

Suryavir

It's interesting that the media this time around has not accepted the Administration's viewpoint in toto, and has been (deservedly) harsh on Pakistan.

I would be bit sceptical about this statement. Seemingly the positive part of it. For, it is quite possible that what is appearing in the media, may have been with the encouragement of the administration. At least part of it. Things, which may be difficult for the administrators to say directly or some message, is being conveyed through the media. US media has been known to do administration's bidding especially when it comes to foreign countries/affairs.

suryavir · Post by **suryavir** » 11 Feb 2004 00:06

Cross-posting from the Indo-US thread. For this proposal to have legs, it must resonate with the entire Congress (although 178-180 members of the India Caucus is no mean number). The media are doing their part. It's now up to experts like Dr. Hoyt to step up to the plate and do their part.

(I mean that seriously.)

India Caucus:
[url=http://Pak%20must%20sign%20NPT%20and%20be%20stripped%20of%20nukes]web page[/url]

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 11 Feb 2004 00:23

The underling who did the work at the behest and direction of his political and military masters should be rewarded with calamitous death,

And with a little luck we'll get some of his family as well. Think about that. Actually, I hope all potential jihadis think about that. Maybe one of their sisters will get to go to paradise and be one of the 72?

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 11 Feb 2004 00:31

Suryavir, that headline might be a bit misleading. This looks like a statement made by Congressman Joseph Crowley only, though he is co-chairman of the India Caucus.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/481877.cms

Here is the statement:

http://crowley.house.gov/news/record.asp?id=431

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 11 Feb 2004 00:39

What's with all this "Dr. Hoyt this" and "Dr. Hoyt that" BS? On this forum he is "Tim". Get it? Tim (or "Tim Hoyt" if you are afraid people might think you mean Tim the Toolmaker).

If we are now going to lean on exaggerated and irrelevant repetitions of people's titles and academic credentials, let me remind people that there are probably more Doctors/Professors/PhDs on this forum than you can shake a stick at -- and I'm not talking about TSJ's "psychiatrists' picnic" angle either. (BTW, I think TSJ should be promoted to General for that one

).

So: if it's now "Dr. Hoyt the ThinkTanker", then let's have Doctor Shiv, Doctor (or Professor if you prefer) N^3, etc.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 11 Feb 2004 00:50

Mohan Raju>> sometimes it is good to know the doctored version of the truth.

Raj Singh · Post by **Raj Singh** » 11 Feb 2004 00:53

Quote ...........

Israel concerned over nuclear mess in Pakistan

New Delhi, Feb. 10. (PTI): Israel today voiced serious concern over the nuclear mess in Pakistan and the possibility of extremist organisations like Al Qaeda getting their hands on nuclear weapons and called upon democracies, including India, to work together to thwart such attempts.

"We are concerned about this new information," visiting Israeli Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said at a joint press conference with External Affairs Minister Yashwant Sinha when asked about the leakage of sensitive information by Pakistan's top nuclear scientist A Q Khan to Iran, North Korea and Libya.

He indicated that the issue would be discussed with Israel's friends in the international community.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00210103003.htm?headline=Israel~concerned~over~nuclear~mess~in~Pakistan