Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

jrjrao
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 11 Feb 2004 07:04

Heh heh. Lookee here who is so very defensive onlee. Presenting the one and only Mansoor I:

Not all of Pakistan's nuclear scientists were rogues

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0211/p09s02-cogn.html

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby svinayak » 11 Feb 2004 07:09

Originally posted by jrjrao:
Heh heh. Lookee here who is so very defensive onlee. Presenting the one and only Mansoor I:

[b]Not all of Pakistan's nuclear scientists were rogues


http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0211/p09s02-cogn.html[/b]
This is good. Lots of details.

When I asked him a few months before he died why he had become so emotional that day on the plane, he told me it had to do with the deep regret he had felt for not being able to move our family back to Pakistan and fulfill his dream of helping his country become a peaceful nuclear power, one whose only use of nuclear weapons would be for self-defense. :eek:

On Jan. 20, 1972, my father (then a tenured physicist at Virginia Tech and senior research scientist at the Oak Ridge National Labs in Tennessee), along with 300 of Pakistan's best nuclear physicists and engineers had been summoned home from around the world by Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. They came to a rural Pakistani town where Bhutto ordered them to "build me a bomb." He vowed to "eat grass," if necessary, to make Pakistan a nuclear power.

Copies of my father's polite but firm handwritten rejections - often with a reminder to his former students that Pakistan's nuclear program had been intended to give energy to its poor, not to make bombs for its self-destruction - were also in his files.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 11 Feb 2004 07:10

NY Newsday.

Pakistan Wants No 'Islamic Bomb'
By Michael Krepon

Champs
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Champs » 11 Feb 2004 07:40

Ramana

"Why do I get the feeling that you are an intellectual masquerading as a redneck?
Country folk dont use educated talk like Latin. More like prep school background. "

Inspite of all the effort our American friend TS Jones makes to come across as a rude 'tit for tat' redneck he ain't one. In the past, he got excited over Spinoza! Now c'mon, how many 'ordinarily' educated Americans leave alone rednecks get excited over the philosophy of Spinoza, Schopenhauer, De Tocqueville or Kant... Well, very select few, at least as amateurs. Some Indians, a few Englishmen and fewer Americans are likely to have interest in philosophy as amateurs... (this is assuming TSJ is an amateur!)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 11 Feb 2004 07:44

US drives effort to prevent another Pakistani breach

Bush may talk Wednesday about countries that have not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0211/p02s01-usfp.html
Pakistan's reaction so far causes concern among experts. It's not at all clear, they say, that Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf will turn over information necessary to locate all the links in the chain. Nor is it clear that he will prosecute Pakistani scientists and military or intelligence officials who may have aided Khan's transfers.

The current relationship between Pakistan and the US is slightly curious, these sources say. To this point the US has been oddly restrained about the Pakistani revelations, for one thing.

"Waving the fear of an Islamic fundamentalist state isn't good enough," says David Albright, president of the Institute for Science and International Security. "We cannot risk an attack by a nuclear bomb."

These experts also worry about the possible transfer of plans and technology to terror groups. Khan, as well as his former military supervisors, has long been known to sympathize not only with other Muslim nations trying to obtain a nuclear weapon, but also with Islamic groups.

In a 1984 interview with the Pakistani newspaper Nawa-e-Waqt, for example, Khan accused the West of trying to dampen Pakistan's efforts to obtain a nuclear weapon. "All this is part of the crusades which the Christians and Jews had initiated against the Muslims 1,000 years ago," Khan said. He went on to say that the West was afraid that Pakistan might share its technology with Iraq, Libya, and Iran.

Moreover, the military general who oversaw Khan's work, Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg, has publicly sympathized with Al Qaeda leaders. After the US bombed Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan in 1998, General Beg spoke to reporters. "By the grace of God," he said, Osama bin Laden escaped the attacks.


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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 11 Feb 2004 07:49

Building the bomb: North Korean exiles reveal 15 year history of nuclear cheating

By Jasper Becker in Seoul

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=489988

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Amber G. » 11 Feb 2004 07:49

along with 300 of Pakistan's best nuclear physicists ...
Now as a physics grad student (My degree happens to be in Nuclea physics too) around the same time (in 1972 ) I doubt if there were more than 20 (most likely 10) 'nuclear physicst' (say a PhD) in whole of Pakistan. Any one has any stat on how many scientists are there in Pak?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby kgoan » 11 Feb 2004 07:53

Yer have to give it to Ijaz, next to Cohen he really knows how to spin it.

Look at this: "Build me a bomb".

Know where that's from? Straight out of Lord of the Rings, when Sauron orders Saruman to: "BUILD ME AN ARMY".

Enough people have watched the LoR to identify with that phrase, even if unconciously. So that single phrase of Ijaz's would evoke all sorts of responses.

Bhutto, the classical hate figure of the RAPE for daring to threaten the whole Pak structure with his threat of empowering the averags abdul if he didn't get what he wanted, ordering his sarumans, to do nasty things, and good ol' gandalf (Ijaz's father - and by extension, Ijaz) resisting . . .

You get the drift. Clever little runt, isn't he.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby b_ravi » 11 Feb 2004 08:03

Originally posted by John Umrao:
Folks>> All those who were in my email list ( pre 1998 BRF members), Please look for a document I am going to point to and try to super impose the same wrt Pakis and see how things pan out.

Those of you who have marked my email address as junk or blocked, please read the message, you will benefit from alook at this document. :D

TIA
Can anyone join the mailing list? Any requirements? :D

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Umrao » 11 Feb 2004 08:06

In a far far land called Pakistan, a metalurgist could be over nite converted to a Nuclear Santist or Nuclear Engineer.

In yet another land the people there get a expert on to shows and Fox the people of the nation and this "expert" oscillates between diplomatic correspondent, anti terror expert, Foreign Affairs expert, Foreign currency expert, you name he becomes it.

A man lives at the corner of the street,
And his neighbors think he’s helpful and he’s sweet,
’cause he never swears and he always shakes you by the hand,
But no one knows he really is a plastic man.
Plastic Man by Temptations

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 11 Feb 2004 08:26

Originally posted by Amber G.:
along with 300 of Pakistan's best nuclear physicists ...
Now as a physics grad student (My degree happens to be in Nuclea physics too) around the same time (in 1972 ) I doubt if there were more than 20 (most likely 10) 'nuclear physicst' (say a PhD) in whole of Pakistan. Any one has any stat on how many scientists are there in Pak?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/468709.cms
Professor Salam told me that I was exaggerating the possibility of Pakistan
making a nuclear weapon. I was taken aback when he asked me whether a
metallurgist who stole documents in Holland would be able to make the bomb.
The reference was obviously to A Q Khan. I replied that I was aware of the
rivalry between physicists and engineers involved in the bomb project, not
peculiar to Pakistan , but my assessment was that the success of the project
would not be dependent on the talents of any one person but of the team as a
whole.
..
It reminded me of the scepticism of our own scientists in those days about
Pakistan 's capability to produce nuclear weapons. Their scepticism was based
on their judgment that Pakistan did not have the critical mass of scientific
and engineering talent necessary for the project.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/040205/139/2bbn6.html
Just 8 patents in 43 years for Pak scientists!

Karachi, Feb 5 (ANI): Pakistani scientists have performed poorly at the
international level as they have just managed to get eight patents registered
internationally, a detailed study carried out by the Pakistan Council for
Science and Technology (PCST) has said.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby jarugn » 11 Feb 2004 08:40

Bush to propose nuclear fuel ban to end proliferation - Xerox Khan fallout

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/11/politics/11PREX.html?hp=&pagewanted=all&position=

In an afternoon speech at the National Defense University, they said, Mr. Bush will call for a re-examination of what one official called the "basic bargain" underlying the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty: that those states that promise not to pursue nuclear weapons will receive help in producing nuclear fuel for power generation.

Mr. Bush is also to name B. S. A. Tahir, a Sri Lanka-born trader who moved to Dubai as a child, as the "other major node" in the Khan network.

It was Mr. Tahir, who lives much of the time in Kuala Lumpur, who negotiated with a Malaysian company called Scomi to produce parts for high-speed centrifuges, which enrich uranium. It was the interception of one such shipment to Libya in October that allowed American intelligence officials to present Pakistan with evidence about Dr. Khan.

In recent days, efforts to reach Mr. Tahir have been unsuccessful. He owns 49 percent of a computer company, S.M.B. Computers, in Dubai, and Scomi officials have identified him as one of the men who negotiated the deal under which they produced the parts.

Mr. Bush's speech will mark the first time Mr. Tahir has been publicly identified by the United States as a major player, though intelligence officials have mentioned, on background, what they say was his central role in arranging the transfer of centrifuge components from Malaysia to Dubai and on to Libya.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Sunil » 11 Feb 2004 08:47

> Pakistan wants No Islamic Bomb- Micheal Krepon.

I am terribly sorry I just can't resist.

The people of Rohan do not seem to understand that they are going to face the combined might of Sauron *and* Sarumon. Without an alliance, the even Helm's Deep cannot be defended.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby TSJones » 11 Feb 2004 09:08


Inspite of all the effort our American friend TS Jones makes to come across as a rude 'tit for tat' redneck he ain't one. In the past, he got excited over Spinoza! Now c'mon, how many 'ordinarily' educated Americans leave alone rednecks get excited over the philosophy of Spinoza, Schopenhauer, De Tocqueville or Kant... Well, very select few, at least as amateurs. Some Indians, a few Englishmen and fewer Americans are likely to have interest in philosophy as amateurs... (this is assuming TSJ is an amateur!)


Gentlemen, let's maintain decorum. I can assure you I am merely an interested amateur and an ex-Marine enlisted man. And at one time in the US, Latin was considered part of the college prepatory program for public high schools, not just private prep schools. Nowadays it's Spanish or something. However, there is a lot to be said for Cervantes. I do not have an advanced degree either, unlike a lot of the participants on this board. Somtimes I feel like a one legged man in a kicking contest. (grin)

As an added disclosure, I think it is OK for me to say that I spent a 6 month detail being the Secret and Confidential Files Clerk for the Squadron I served with. I logged all written classified communications received, presented the morning reading for the Skipper after obtaining the morning wires, burned all obsolete material (after sign off by the Skipper), kept the inventory of classified material updated and I got to read some of the most interesting CIA and DIA analysis that a dumb, ignorant Marine could ever hope to see. It was in fact, a superb education and a real privilege. What other Marines found boring and humdrum, I found endlessly fascinating. The info wasn't that important per se, but it taught me how these guys *think*. And that in itself has provided me a life long, interesting hobby. Sadly, too late, I now realize that I could have worked in it if I had wished to pursue the career but I wanted to be a married family man and could not bear the thought of long separations from my wife and children. That was also the reason why I got out of the Marines instead of staying in.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Vriksh » 11 Feb 2004 09:14

TSJ there are the educated and then there are the learned... whatever it is you atleast have the "scientific temper" to expand your/and of course our horizons.

Though I may not agree with you much of the time, it is always enlightening to know your opinions.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2004 09:16

One quesion about these majical weapons conjured by ACK annd his apprentices- If the original designs are Chinese how do uncle's PALs fit and work? These are hardly plug & play devices. Maybe uncle's wizards have come up with universal PALs?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby ramana » 11 Feb 2004 09:20

Fair enough TSJ!Please carry on. Sorry for doubting you. My apologies. Also have utmost respect for self taught people. Its not easy.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby JCage » 11 Feb 2004 10:22

Originally posted by kgoan:
Yer have to give it to Ijaz, next to Cohen he really knows how to spin it.

Look at this: "Build me a bomb".

Know where that's from? Straight out of Lord of the Rings, when Sauron orders Saruman to: "BUILD ME AN ARMY".

Enough people have watched the LoR to identify with that phrase, even if unconciously. So that single phrase of Ijaz's would evoke all sorts of responses.

Bhutto, the classical hate figure of the RAPE for daring to threaten the whole Pak structure with his threat of empowering the averags abdul if he didn't get what he wanted, ordering his sarumans, to do nasty things, and good ol' gandalf (Ijaz's father - and by extension, Ijaz) resisting . . .

You get the drift. Clever little runt, isn't he.
:D

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Yash » 11 Feb 2004 11:36

US is getting to taste the lying bits of pakistan finally.
We provided leads about Khan earlier: US

This in response to Mush's NY times interview where he stated that US did not pass "all" the information it had about Khan, else he would have acted earlier and this would not have gone so far. US is damned if it does, and damned if it doesn't give "all" the info. Poor mush. what could he do?! Mush knows how to play US (and India) media quite well. He just takes it to the people.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby daulat » 11 Feb 2004 13:55

guys can we stop all the bickering and get back on topic please? The net is about declared identities, not actual ones - so participants on this thread should be judged by what they contribute here and nothing else

also - would appreciate a primer on PAL's if anyone knows of a good one. My search has proved fruitless to date

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby JaiS » 11 Feb 2004 15:47

At your service,

Permissive Action Links


A PAL -- a "Permissive Action Link" -- is the box that is supposed to prevent unauthorized use of a nuclear weapon. "Unauthorized" covers a wide range of sin, from terrorists who have stolen bombs to insane American military officers to our allies who may have some of their own uses for bombs that are covered by joint use agreements. It's supposed to be impossible to "hot-wire" a nuclear weapon. Is it?

It is known that PALs work on cryptographic principles. A common supposition is that the arm code is in fact a key that is used to decrypt some of the timing data.

Precise timing -- that's the key to my idea for a highly effective PAL. First, design the weapon to make the firing sequence as inherently complex and critical as possible. Vary the chemical composition and detonation velocities of the various pieces of high explosive so they have to be detonated non-simultaneously. Then store all of the required timing data in encrypted form in the weapon's memory. Better yet, encrypt everything (program and data) except for a small bootstrap that accepts an external key and decrypts everything for firing. Include this decryption key in the "nuclear weapons release" message from the "National Command Authority"

There have been a number of different types of PALs used over the years.
Combination lock
The earliest control mechanism was a three-digit combination lock. Later versions were four-digit locks designed to accommodate split-knowledge, where two different individuals could each have half the key. The combination lock can do different things. Some block the volume into which firing components must be inserted, others block electrical circuits, while still others prevent access to the fuzing and arming mechanisms.
These locks were in use at least as recently as 1987. In 1981 -- almost 20 years after PALs were invented -- about half of the U.S. nuclear weapons in Europe were still protected by mechanical locks [SF87].

CAT A
CAT A PALs, intended for use on missiles, were electromechanical switches. The arming input was a 4-digit decimal number. (Some sources say it was a 5-digit number.) Crews used a portable electronic device that plugged into the weapon to arm it.
CAT B
The CAT B PAL, used on bombs, was similar in spirit to the CAT A, but used fewer wires. This permitted remote control of the PAL from an airplane cockpit. With the CAT B, it is also possible to check the code, relock the weapon, or rekey it. Later models of the CAT B included a limited-try feature, rekeying, and a code-controlled lock.
CAT C
The CAT C PAL accepts 6-digit keys. A limited-try feature disables the bomb if too many incorrect keys are entered. Most references omit the CAT C. It may just be a later model of the CAT B.
CAT D
The CAT D PAL accepts 6-digit keys. A given PAL can accept a number of different keys, permitting different groups of weapons to be unlocked with one transmission. Some keys are used for training; others are used to disarm the weapon or to disable it. One source [CAH84] suggests that PAL codes can also be used to vary the yield on some weapons. There are a number of selectable mechanisms to disable the bomb. In addition, there are "violent or nonviolent methods for destroying the warhead or making it irreparably nonfunctional" [C87c]. (One report, which I have not yet seen confirmed in the literature, is that the violent option involves a shaped charge which destroys the symmetry of the pit. It is thus no longer able to fission until it has been remachined -- and machining plutonium is non-trivial.) One reference suggests that there is a remote disable option on some PALs.
CAT F
The CAT F PAL appears to be similar to the CAT D, but it accepts a 12-digit key.


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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Aarya » 11 Feb 2004 15:56

Bush to give a major policy speech today which revolves around the threat of WMD. According to CNN, Bush will speak about pressuresing pakistan to do more to dismantel the nuclear blackmarket "network" --I presume that includes ISI and Papi Army-- permanently. Also, look for ALL countries to join the NPT.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby daulat » 11 Feb 2004 16:02

many thanks Jai SR

I can see how a PAL will prevent full cooking of U/Pu load, however, could an axe to the warhead's brains and/or launch without PAL approval (assuming missile can be sent off) result in:

a) partial nuclear explosion (low yield)?
b) big mess with rads leaking all over the place - same effect as a dirty bomb?

seems to me that the PAL works in a classical cold war scenario where full combustion of the warhead would be pretty essential. In a jehadi scenario and/or loony pak general scenario - would a partial burn or spillage outcome be just as effective

and so make PAL's somewhat non-foolproof?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby daulat » 11 Feb 2004 16:04

Originally posted by Aarya:
Bush to give a major policy speech today which revolves around the threat of WMD. According to CNN, Bush will speak about pressuresing pakistan to do more to dismantel the nuclear blackmarket "network" --I presume that includes ISI and Papi Army-- permanently. Also, look for ALL countries to join the NPT.
hypothesis: unkil's deal with bharat - keep the nukes you have, don't build anymore and sign the NPT to set an example

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby varun » 11 Feb 2004 16:09

Originally posted by Aarya:
Bush to give a major policy speech today which revolves around the threat of WMD. According to CNN, Bush will speak about pressuresing pakistan to do more to dismantel the nuclear blackmarket "network" --I presume that includes ISI and Papi Army-- permanently. Also, look for ALL countries to join the NPT.
It will be at 2:30 PM EST. Bush is going to address the issue of WMD, and non-proliferation.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Umrao » 11 Feb 2004 19:03

This is what I like in Americans, no pretensions, self-made (there are exceptions like Prez Bush as per Kevin Philips :) ) and to the point.

I salute you TSJ for your honest and straight forward perspective often garnished with real life experience unlike some South Asian experts who run looking for yellow sea in Kashmir.

I love Tim the the Tool Man too, after all he is big fan of Lions, Tigers & Redwings

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Umrao » 11 Feb 2004 19:05

No deal no NPT no CTBT unless same status as P-5 period.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby vijayk » 11 Feb 2004 19:12

Originally posted by jrjrao:
Heh heh. Lookee here who is so very defensive onlee. Presenting the one and only Mansoor I:

[b]Not all of Pakistan's nuclear scientists were rogues


http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0211/p09s02-cogn.html[/b]
He knows how to manipulate the americans, press and get what every Paki RAPE rougue wants: let them off the hook...

Whitewashing Pakistan's official complicity in such activities, as the Bush administration seems to be doing, will only result in rogue proliferators sprouting up everywhere. But if making Khan the scapegoat protects Pakistan's military and intelligence institutions so they can earnestly - albeit secretly - debrief international investigators about which other countries and terrorist groups, including Al Qaeda, have received Pakistani nuclear materials and technologies, so be it. Dismantling the threat is more important than assigning blame if we are to prevent a dirty bomb from going off in Los Angeles or New York.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby James Bund » 11 Feb 2004 19:13

T.S. Jones, You da man!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby daulat » 11 Feb 2004 19:15

Originally posted by John Umrao:
No deal no NPT no CTBT unless same status as P-5 period.
i think its P-5 lite
security council seat
G7+ group
'allowed' to run south-bloc (brasil, zuidafrika, bharat)

collaboration on space (i.e. no ICBM's) and civilian nukes (i.e. no H bombs)

easing back on anti-BPO: see white house declaration only yesterday on the topic, bharat gets specific mention ;)

in exchange, paks get security blanket from unkil, some resolution on kashmir (probably the H&D saving increased autonomy option - so mush can say they won it for their brothers) and most importantly, paks don't get a paddy straining at the leash to whip their sorry asses

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 11 Feb 2004 19:18

Originally posted by Daulat:
[hypothesis: unkil's deal with bharat - keep the nukes you have, don't build anymore and sign the NPT to set an example
Daulat - it is going to be difficult enough to get Pakland to toe the line, along with NK and co - so why are you talking about Bharat?

I will bet my testimonials that Bharat will ensure that it remains on a separate pedestal. Let us leave yindooland out of the Paki nuke prolif folder.

The problem in Pakland may not be the warheads that are covered by Paki-American Langotis. I think the REAL worry is the unaccounted for enriched Uranium floating about.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Sunil » 11 Feb 2004 19:30

A few thoughts on Pakistani approaches to the proliferation publicity.

1) The Pakistanis are attempting to deflect attention from the `rogue Pakistanis' who did all this to their european suppliers. My guess is that if they do this, they gain in leverage vis-a-vis the US as they don't offer up their American collaborators and they spawn a US-Eu fight which keeps America occupied.

2) The Pakistanis want to make sure that their nuclear position is seen as a perfectly rational act. To this end they are going to tell everyone that

a) there are rational nuclear scientists,
b) Pakistan is committed to the ideals of non proliferation, and
c) Pakistan needs its nuclear weapons to defend against a belligerent India.

3) The Pakistanis know the Non-Proliferation community simply looks up the nuclear black market as a cash cow, as a way to suck up funds without having to show any meaningful performance. So the Pakistanis will go out of their way to prove that the intention behind their nuclear tech. proliferation was not Islamist bias. If this means cutting Aslam Beg off at the knees, Musharraf will do it. Remember Beg was the one who refused to fly in the C-130 with Zia. Musharraf still has the Zia autopsy report to hold against Beg. So a public slapdown of Beg is likely to deflect concerns about Jihadi fervor driving the pakistani proliferation cycle.

4) The Pakistanis also know that their friends in the US make money from `taxing' illicit (NPT,CTBT,MTCR violating) trade. So the Pakistanis will happily go along with anything that strengthens sucks people into such money making.

The time for the riders of Rohan to leave is approaching. The power of Saruman is simply too much for them to overcome.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby daulat » 11 Feb 2004 19:52

shiv - i didn't say i agreed with the equal=equal nonsense, just that it is what unkil will ram down our throats. the sweetner will be the other things. Assumption is that pak is currently being denuked by unkil and they won't come quietly, so unkil will make us yield on something

unkil would rather we didn't have any nukes, so as far as they are concerned equal=equal is good enough. us fishybanias get upset by comparisons to the TFTA onlee

sunil s - not sure i follow your LOTR analogy, In my mental model the rohirrim ride on Arjun's across the Thar and smash the filthy TFTA orc hordes to smithereens! :)

musharuman is about to get locked up in orthanc
o elbereth gilthoniel!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 11 Feb 2004 19:53

See, like Terrorist Chief Mush, even the Photochor Khan has now new uses for Unkil. Awaiting the visit of the Photochor to Camp David any day now...

Pakistan scientist's testimony may influence Korea impasse
The United States and North Korea have been arguing for well over a year about the breadth of Pyongyang's nuclear program.

Ironically, U.S. officials say that Pakistan's rogue scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, for all of his admitted misdeeds, may be ideally positioned to clarify the North's nuclear capabilities.

Officials hope :roll: that Khan, Pakistan's ace bomb-builder and confessed proliferator of nuclear secrets, will set the record straight before key talks on the North Korean nuclear impasse start Feb. 25.

Khan is uniquely qualified to address the issue... :roll:

Given his flouting of the U.S. anti-proliferation campaign, it may seem out of character for the United States to accept without complaint the pardon that Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf gave Khan last week. To the extent there is indignation about Khan, officials are keeping it to themselves. Nowadays, they see Khan as more of an opportunity than a problem. :roll: :rotfl:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby daulat » 11 Feb 2004 19:59

TSJ - you have given me a thought, perhaps Cervantes has something for us afterall

don quixote = Mush
sancho panza = AXKhan

another time, another thread! :)

JRJ - your article above confirms to me the supreme power of unkil, use photochor-bhai to nail the red-kimchee-eaters; thats a master stroke!! and this is what will keep photochor away from the 72 for a few more years (till Mossad get to him)

who else is left with danger of nuke-abuse? syria is probably bottled up?

only israel and india... and that's going to upset the ummah big time, so something else has to be thrown in to compensate

or maybe unkil is just going for broke with the iron fist?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby krithivas » 11 Feb 2004 20:05

Nothing to complain. This incident and a string of others only demonstrate the outer reaches of the actual (vs. perceived) US power.

Everyday the US is positioniong itself to becoming the "mother of all paper tigers".

R> Krithivas

Originally posted by jrjrao:
See, like Terrorist Chief Mush, even the Photochor Khan has now new uses for Unkil. Awaiting the visit of the Photochor to Camp David any day now...

Pakistan scientist's testimony may influence Korea impasse
The United States and North Korea have been arguing for well over a year about the breadth of Pyongyang's nuclear program.

Ironically, U.S. officials say that Pakistan's rogue scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, for all of his admitted misdeeds, may be ideally positioned to clarify the North's nuclear capabilities.

Officials hope :roll: that Khan, Pakistan's ace bomb-builder and confessed proliferator of nuclear secrets, will set the record straight before key talks on the North Korean nuclear impasse start Feb. 25.

Khan is uniquely qualified to address the issue... :roll:

Given his flouting of the U.S. anti-proliferation campaign, it may seem out of character for the United States to accept without complaint the pardon that Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf gave Khan last week. To the extent there is indignation about Khan, officials are keeping it to themselves. [b]Nowadays, they see Khan as more of an opportunity than a problem. :roll: :rotfl:
[/b]

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby SaiK » 11 Feb 2004 20:13

para-proliferation!.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/11/politics/11PREX.html?th

Bush Plans to Focus on Fuel Ban to End Spread of A-Bombs

In addition to those five, Israel, India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons, and North Korea is believed by American intelligence agencies to have at least two and perhaps several more.

pakistan is pardoned, but wants pakistan to declare copyKhan as rogue!

===

Mr. Bush's insistence on moving ahead with research on a new class of so-called bunker-busting nuclear weapons has been cited by his opponents — including many in Europe — as an example of a double standard in which he seeks to stop other states from building weapons while continuing to improve the American arsenal.

===
Mr. Bush will also call for an expansion of the Proliferation Security Initiative, a loose affiliation of countries, organized by the United States, to intercept unconventional weapons. The seizure of the Libyan shipment in October was the biggest single success, though other equipment has been seized on the way to North Korea.

===

The official said Mr. Bush would call for a new committee within the agency to monitor compliance with "safeguards" agreements, which allow inspection where nuclear fuel or weapons work may be conducted.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 11 Feb 2004 21:49


Leonard
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Leonard » 11 Feb 2004 22:31

Pakistan's nuclear crisis
DR AFZAL MIRZA
Pakistan is in the grip of a so-called nuclear crisis. After a report from the International Atomic Energy Agency, some nuclear scientists from the Kahuta Research Laboratories were hauled up for investigation. As a result of several days of debriefing the public has been informed that these scientists were involved in passing on certain classified technical information to countries like Iran, Libya etc.
Since Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan happened to be the kingpin in all this mechanism therefore, he has been declared as the persona non grata in this episode. What has come out from all these reports is that while the supervisors looked the other way these "rogue" scientists leaked out the information to other keen clients of the nuclear capability. Be that as it may, the media trial of the people involved has created a hype in Pakistan with all the new flourishing independent TV channels competing for the scoops and sensational disclosures.
The public opinion has been divided over the fate of Dr AQ Khan. Some opinion-makers declared our worthy scientists as patriots of highest order who had sacrificed their everything for making Pakistan a nuclear power. And for others they suddenly became a pariah. A casual reader is lost in this haze of contradictory opinions and does not know where lies the truth.
The situation becomes more complex when even the ministers give contradictory statements. The problem with these ministers is that initially they were elected on the tickets of different political parties and had ditched them for sake of power. For example the two ministers besides the main boss and deputy boss who are very vocal in this matter are Sheikh Rashid and Faisal Saleh Hayat and they belong to two different parties. Nobody is there to bring about a sense of discipline so that only a unanimous view is made known to the media.
No one can deny the fact that had Qadeer Khan not brought the drawings of the gaseous ultracentrifuges it would have taken Pakistan years to make its bomb. Without these centrifuges the enrichment process was lengthy and cumbersome. Again throughout the project it was a known fact that the two parties involved in the project were in hard competition. The two parties were Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and Kahuta Research Laboratories. When in 1974 Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto entrusted the task to Pakistani scientists there was only one organisation that was PAEC. Dr Khan at that time was working in Holland. Having learnt of this project he contacted the government and was invited to join the project. However the bureaucrats in PAEC were not prepared to accept an outsider amongst them and created problems for him. When he reported this problem to ZAB he ordered to grant him autonomy by establishing a separate laboratory for him. Thus both the groups worked independently, one enriching the fuel and the other looking after the fission requirements.
Once during his time Gen. Ziaul Haq, due to political reasons, commissioned Mushahid Husain who was editor of the Muslim and had covert ties with the establishment to take Indian journalist Kuldip Nayyar to A.Q. Khan for an interview. This exposed Khan to the media and he became a media celebrity while PAEC people remained unexposed to media. There is no doubt that Qadeer Khan had always liked to be in the limelight and had also worked as a journalist for some time during his student days in a Karachi Urdu daily. After Nayyar's interview, Khan did not miss any opportunity of self-publicity. The enormous amount of funds at his disposal were used to commission writers to project his personality and achievements.
A whole group of journalists was there to oblige him. Books and articles appeared in the market eulogising Khan's achievements. The result was that the internal rivalries and jealousies became more pronounced and the other party also started feeding information to the media against Khan. However the whole matter remained covert 'in the larger national interest.' But when the bomb was actually exploded in 1998 by Nawaz Sharif, the rivalries came to the surface. Both parties wanted to claim the credit for the feat. There came an exchange of public statements between Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan and Dr Samar Mubarakmand. A smear campaign then ensued. Much was written about Khan's big palace in Bani Gala suburb of Islamabad and through the word of mouth rumours were circulated about his business interests in many Islamabad business ventures.
Khan was a 'blue-eyed' boy of Pakistan Army and ISI throughout his career. Ziaul Haq pampered him. He was provided a VVIP protocol and whenever he moved a number of security vans would escort him while a helicopter flew overhead. Historically speaking, after the death of Z.A. Bhutto, the Pakistan's nuclear project became a 'baby' of the army. The only civilian who remained involved in the project was Ghulam Ishaq Khan who as the financial expert of all the regimes and had been financially nurturing it. After Zia when democracy was revived Ghulam Ishaq Khan and the army thought it expedient to keep it away from the democratically elected prime ministers.
So much so that during their tenures as prime ministers both Benazir and Nawaz Shartif were not allowed to go any where near the Kahuta Research laboratories. General Aslam Beg the then chief of army staff has said in a recent interview that there was National Nuclear Authority of which the prime minister was a member and the funds of the project were presented before it and it was ratified. If there was hanky panky how could it escape the hawk-like eye of "super" accountant Ghulam Ishaq Khan. Whatever be the explanation given by Gen Beg the fact remains that Khan worked under the direct control of General Aslam Beg during that period when the secrets were allegedly passed on to Iran.
After him, General Jehangir Karamat also supervised Khan till the time that under "outside" pressure President Musharraf grounded Khan by making him adviser to the prime minister simultaneously grounding Dr Ishfaq Ahmad the chairman of the PAEC. Whatever may be the weaknesses of Abdul Qadeer Khan, the fact remains that his work for enrichment of nuclear fuel resulted in Pakistan's acquisition of nuclear capability at the most appropriate time. Not that PAEC would not have achieved it but it would have taken years to do it by them. Dr Qadeer Khan expedited the process and his contribution cannot be ignored.
The present scenario is strangely complex. There are anti-nuclear bomb people who are, as a matter of principle, opposed to nuclear capability anywhere in the world. I think every sane person would agree with them in that because we have already seen its effects in holocaust of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is a curse that earlier we got rid of it better it would be. These people also oppose any hostilities between India and Pakistan and they are right in the sense that any atomic bomb dropped anywhere in India or Pakistan would turn the whole Sub-continent into a wasteland. But they forget the objective intensity of rivalry between these two nuclear powers of the Sub-continent.
What prompted Z.A. Bhutto to opt for the nuclear weapon was the fact that India had already declared their nuclear designs. Pakistan had been recently defeated in East Pakistan and there was every apprehension that armed with nuclear weapons India would not hesitate from threatening the sovereignty of Pakistan. A Pakistani Bomb was not meant to be a weapon per se but a deterrent. It took many years and much resources in accomplishing it. When the project was started Pakistan was not in a position to financially support it.
That is why Bhutto had said that we would eat grass but make it. Successive governments continued the project in hard times. Now we have this bomb. Pakistan is not living in a totally nuclear-free world. Besides the World powers India and Israel also possess it. We know that although before 9/11 America looked the other way but now it appears that they are hell bent to tighten the noose around our nuclear programme. We have played our cards badly. We have exposed our scientists to the world instead of secretly trying them and laying them off. The million-dollar question is whether in spite of all our claims that we will never roll back our programme, will Pakistan be able to sustain the pressure?

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Feb-2004/11/EDITOR/op1.asp

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 07 Feb 2004

Postby Vivek_A » 12 Feb 2004 00:03



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