Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Tim
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: USA

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Tim » 13 Feb 2004 05:58

Ashutosh,

There are folks who use the US as a partial or total justification for India's need for the bomb. Sundarji's comment reflected that train of thought - as long as a much more powerful state existed, a nuclear deterrent was necessary to provide an umbrella under which India could pursue its interests without interference. I think that argument is used less often in the Indian case than in some of the other cases I mentioned - but it was even used by France (to provide freedom of maneuver vice the superpowers).

I tend not to believe in single explanations for complex events like political decisions. I think there are a lot of reasons India built its bomb. Concern about larger powers was one of them - but I think China was considered a more pressing concern by most of the decisionmakers than the US.

Raj.

I don't think Griffin was doing this for love of country. Maybe I misinterpret. I was assuming something much more simple - that people seek basic explanations to provide reasons for what they do. And like it or not, an awful lot of people in the world look at the Indo-Pakistani relationship and say "India's awfully big - I can see why Pakistan would want a bomb."

I think arms dealers could easily make that kind of rationalization. I don't think Griffin was doing it specifically out of love for Pakistan or hatred of India. I could be wrong, obviously. But I'm guessing he looked at it as a business deal, and this was a reasonable rationalization for behavior that some might find odious or unacceptable.

I think when AQK sold technology, he was doing it for his country, with the approval of high authorities. I can't prove that, of course. But the greed explanation does not strike me as remotely credible. Either the highest authorities (certainly in the military) signed off on it, or the military doesn't have as much control over its officer corps and nuclear facilities as it likes to claim. Either way, it's pretty darned dangerous.

I'll let you know if my op ed on the subject gets printed anywhere.

Tim

Raj Singh
BRFite
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Raj Singh » 13 Feb 2004 06:08

Tim

I don't think Griffin was doing this for love of country. Maybe I misinterpret. I was assuming something much more simple - that people seek basic explanations to provide reasons for what they do. And like it or not, an awful lot of people in the world look at the Indo-Pakistani relationship and say "India's awfully big - I can see why Pakistan would want a bomb."

I think arms dealers could easily make that kind of rationalization. I don't think Griffin was doing it specifically out of love for Pakistan or hatred of India. I could be wrong, obviously. But I'm guessing he looked at it as a business deal, and this was a reasonable rationalization for behavior that some might find odious or unacceptable.

I think when AQK sold technology, he was doing it for his country, with the approval of high authorities. I can't prove that, of course. But the greed explanation does not strike me as remotely credible. Either the highest authorities (certainly in the military) signed off on it, or the military doesn't have as much control over its officer corps and nuclear facilities as it likes to claim. Either way, it's pretty darned dangerous.
While I do thank you for the reply, and and a nice one at that, I must say, you seems to be busy somewhere/occupied elsewhere. :) For, what you have written now, I have already written that but not so eloquently. :)

As to the greed explaination not striking credible to you, please note, I was referring only to the role of Dr Qadir Khan and not the state/govt/army of Pakistan. If we go by that then one knows very well that countries/govts do sell/gift (supposedly)arms to other countries, in their own interests. But the question was raised about an individual (Griffin), an arms dealer/merchant.

I'll let you know if my op ed on the subject gets printed anywhere.
Look forward to that.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Victor » 13 Feb 2004 06:18

Does anyone know what is happening with the paki KRL santists who are still in mushy/dubya custody? They are the motherlode. One would think that they and their families are in grave danger of spontaneous combustion. It would seem that unlike AXK, they were not able to spirit insurance policies abroad in time. Probably sold down the river by AXK.

Raj Singh
BRFite
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Raj Singh » 13 Feb 2004 06:30

Rangudu

Source please.
I haven't got a clue. Picked this from another India/Pakistan forum.

Rangudu
BRFite
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Rangudu » 13 Feb 2004 06:32

Report

Pakistan's leader avoids US censure

By Edward Luce and Farhan Bokhari

Published: February 12 2004 21:01 | Last Updated: February 12 2004 21:01


Nobody will have been listening more closely to Wednesday night's speech by President George W. Bush about nuclear proliferation than General Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's military ruler.


Supporters of the general say the speech gave all he could have asked for. While proposing new measures to contain nuclear proliferation, Mr Bush not only upheld Islamabad's line that A.Q. Khan, the disgraced "rogue scientist", was operating alone and sold nuclear secrets for reasons of financial greed. But he also refrained from censuring Pakistan's government for having permitted Mr Khan the latitude to play the "nuclear black market" for so long.

"This clearly confirms that Washington has accepted Pakistan's assurances that it has closed down all outlets for future proliferation," said Mushahid Husain, a politician in the coalition that supports Gen Musharraf.

But the Pakistani leader, who has a reputation as a consummate escape artist, has many more hoops to jump through before his country is in the clear. Most importantly, the US is waiting for Pakistan to complete its own investigations into the international ring operated by Mr Khan.

Although Gen Musharraf has officially pardoned Mr Khan, the reprieve is conditional on his future good behaviour. In Pakistan it is popularly held that Mr Khan will escape trial as long as he keeps quiet about the presumed connivance of senior military officers in what has been dubbed the "nuclear Wal-Mart". Seven of Dr Khan's senior fellow scientists are still undergoing interrogation and have not yet received a pardon.

"The idea that Dr Khan was operating alone is not credible at any level," says Shahid Ur Rehman, author of a book on Pakistan's nuclear programme. "It was simply not possible to have exchanged all these components and designs without much broader logistical backing."

Gen Musharraf also faces a dilemma about how the Pakistan investigation explains the North Korea element to Mr Khan's activities. Last week Gen Musharraf said no proliferation had taken place since 2000, when he centralised Pakistan's nuclear establishment under a clear command structure and sidelined Mr Khan.

Yet US intelligence reports say Pakistan's barter with North Korea of nuclear technology for ballistic missiles continued at least until July 2002. Soon afterwards Gen Musharraf gave the US his "400 per cent assurance" that such activities had ceased. <u>"What is he going to give this time, an 800 per cent assurance?"</u> :D :roll:

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Calvin » 13 Feb 2004 07:07

ANyone understand why the nuke results are to be shared with Japan by Pakistan?

http://www.dawn.com/2004/02/12/top2.htm

ISLAMABAD, Feb 11: President Pervez Musharraf said on Wednesday that investigations into illicit nuclear transfers to North Korea had not yet concluded and Pakistan would share with Japan the results of investigations once they were finished.

Talking to Japanese Deputy Foreign Minister Ichiro Fujisaki, who called on him here at the Aiwan-i-Sadr, the president said Pakistan was fully aware of, and respected Japanese concerns about the dangers of nuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

"It was inconceivable that Pakistan would do anything that would affect the peace and security of Northeast Asia and especially of Japan." The president said: "Investigations with regard to illicit transfers to North Korea have not yet concluded. Pakistan will share with Japan the results of its internal investigations on any illegal transfers to North Korea when the investigations were completed."

The president stated that as a responsible nuclear weapon state, Pakistan was committed to the goal of nuclear non-proliferation. "Pakistan has taken effective steps to safeguard its nuclear assets and facilities which are now under the National Command Authority," he said.

Gen Musharraf said reports of collusion between a few scientists with the global nuclear underworld were being investigated. "As a responsible state committed to non-proliferation, Pakistan has exposed the complicity of a few individuals with the nuclear blackmarket and is taking appropriate action against them."

The Japanese deputy foreign minister conveyed to the president greetings and good wishes of Prime Minister Koizumi and exchanged views on bilateral and regional issues as well as on matters relating to nuclear non-proliferation.

The president reciprocated the message of good wishes and greetings from Prime Minister Koizumi. He thanked Japan for providing valuable economic and technical assistance to Pakistan and detailed Pakistan's perspective on promoting peace and security in South Asia and the Middle East and stability in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Japanese minister is visiting Islamabad for a high-level economic policy dialogue, the initiation of which was agreed upon during the president's visit to Tokyo in March, 2002. -APP

Rak
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Rak » 13 Feb 2004 07:14


svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby svinayak » 13 Feb 2004 07:17

Originally posted by Calvin:
ANyone understand why the nuke results are to be shared with Japan by Pakistan?

http://www.dawn.com/2004/02/12/top2.htm

ISLAMABAD, Feb 11: President Pervez Musharraf said on Wednesday that investigations into illicit nuclear transfers to North Korea had not yet concluded and Pakistan would share with Japan the results of investigations once they were finished.
Japan is keeping tabs on the nuclear program in all of asia from the info which keeps coming since 1998. There is some sort of agreement between Japan and TSP for info on all matters.

Raahi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 12
Joined: 07 Dec 2003 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Raahi » 13 Feb 2004 07:40

quote:
-------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Calvin:
ANyone understand why the nuke results are to be shared with Japan by Pakistan?
--------------------------------------------------
Pakistan gets largest aid annually from Japan. Officially, sharing with US would provoke jiahadis. It's OK if US gets via Japan.

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Calvin » 13 Feb 2004 07:43

What kind of agreement? Are you saying that there is an agreement, or that there must have been one? If so, what is the nature of this agreement.

Rak
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Rak » 13 Feb 2004 07:43

ANyone understand why the nuke results are to be shared with Japan by Pakistan?
I heard in the news that some japanese entity was also part of AQ Khan's nuke blackmarket ring.

From UN Wire:

Companies or individuals in at least seven countries are believed to be involved in the smuggling network, officials said. Besides Pakistan, the countries known to be involved include Germany, Japan, Malaysia, South Africa and the United Arab Emirates. A company in another European country was also involved, two diplomats said.


Aarya
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 29 Aug 2003 11:31
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Aarya » 13 Feb 2004 07:53

Originally posted by Calvin:
What kind of agreement? Are you saying that there is an agreement, or that there must have been one? If so, what is the nature of this agreement.
Answer could be found in the last paragraph of that article.

The Japanese minister is visiting Islamabad for a high-level economic policy dialogue, the initiation of which was agreed upon during the president's visit to Tokyo in March, 2002
Good to see papis move from selling nuke tech to begging for money in exchange of nuke tech leak investigations.

jrjrao
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 01 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 13 Feb 2004 07:58

Another stinging jhapad to Mush and Pakistan in this editorial in the San Antonio Express-News.

Editorial: Put highest priority on limiting nukes

member_6088
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 1
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby member_6088 » 13 Feb 2004 07:59

Also, can someone point me to any open source on TSP's "posession" of a plutonium implosion device?

Does Plutonium Implosion device also mean "RED MERCURY" device?

Thanks

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24222
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby SSridhar » 13 Feb 2004 08:00

Dr.V.S.Arunachalm's take on AXK and TSP proliferation
I KNEW of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan many years ago, when he was, as I was then, a graduate student in metallurgy struggling to complete his Ph.D. in Europe. He worked under an old Dutch Professor, W.G. Burgers, who was well past his prime when Dr. Khan joined him. The thesis when it came out was pedestrian, and the only publication was a monograph, a Festschrift he edited in honour of his Professor's 75th birthday. After Dr. Khan returned to Pakistan, I would hear sporadically about him from European metallurgists who talked of receiving plaintive letters from him, justifying his action of taking the uranium centrifuge designs from the laboratories he worked to Pakistan and insisting on his innocence. Centrifuges are high-speed kitchen-blender like rotors capable of separating one isotope of uranium essential for making weapons from natural uranium. By combining a large number of such rotors and operating them together, it is possible to produce the critical amount of fissile material needed for weapon. Design of centrifuges rotors and their bearings are complex tasks calling for precision manufacturing and fabrication technologies. Dr. Khan carried away all the designs, and also the material and manufacturing knowhow with him to Pakistan. In spite of the criminal cases then pending against him in Europe, Dr. Khan wanted the scientific community to rise and defend him; and the global community of metallurgists, normally a friendly and close-knit crowd, would have none of that. The members were appalled by his betrayal of professional confidence. Even his claims of developing maraging steel with superior properties were met with scepticism. A few years later, he tried to make up by establishing an engineering educational institution and inviting a number of noted European and Chinese scientists to visit and advise. As far as I know, he could not go very far even with such enticements...[color="red"]the Pakistani bomb is not an Islamic bomb as claimed by many, but an international one made possible by smuggling of knowledge and components.</font>

jrjrao
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 01 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 13 Feb 2004 08:03

Heh heh. In the midst of all this, Mush still finds it necessary to kiss the Maximum Leader Jong-il. Perhaps more NoDongs are required by Pakistan to replace the DingDongs that were shot off in rage last year...

BBC Monitoring International Reports
February 12, 2004
HEADLINE: PAKISTAN PRESIDENT SENDS BIRTHDAY BOUQUET TO NORTH KOREAN LEADER
Pyongyang, 12 February: Leader Kim Jong-il received a large bunch of flowers from Pervez Musharraf, president of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, in the run-up to 16 February, his birthday.

It was handed to an official concerned by Ahmed Hussain Dayo, charge d'affaires ad interim of the Pakistani embassy here, on 11 February.

Source: KCNA news agency, Pyongyang, in English 0332 gmt 12 Feb 04

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby svinayak » 13 Feb 2004 08:19

ADVERTISEMENT



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,110688,00.html
Opinion: Nuclear Pardon?
By Mansoor Ijaz

The admission this week by Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan that he transferred Pakistan's
nuclear technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya is a watershed event in the
history of global non-proliferation efforts. Never has nuclear technology been
shared on such a wide scale by such a poor country with such potentially
disastrous results. And no one seemed to really care too much about the whole
affair.
Brushed aside were the legal, political and security ramifications of potential
involvement by Pakistan's past and present military and intelligence officials
in the package deal - negotiated behind closed doors - to close the controversy
generated by Dr. Khan's decades-long illegal actions. The deal essentially
forced Dr. Khan to admit his guilt alone and to exonerate any government
officials, past or present, in the transfer of nuclear centrifuge technology (to
enable the creation of enriched uranium), bomb designs or warhead components in
exchange for a full presidential pardon issued by Gen. Pervez Musharraf and
approved by his cabinet on Thursday.

Even more disturbing, however, was the apparent "free-pass" issued by the Bush
White House to Gen. Musharraf in an attempt to keep his government alive and
stable. The assumption made was that had Dr. Khan opted to defend himself and
his actions at a trial for treason, he would have spilled the beans on everyone
in government, military and intelligence circles that was involved in the
approval - explicit or implicit - of the nuclear transfers. But the calculation
that making Dr. Khan the fall guy, thereby ending inquiry and bringing closure
to this nuclear scandal (because Musharraf is too valuable as an ally in the war
on terror to let his government collapse), makes the assumption that there are
no other countries or terrorist groups to which Pakistani nuclear assets have
been transferred.

Despite Pakistani denials and statements to the contrary, this is far from
certain.

The civilized world, led by an American administration that has made unraveling
terrorism's nerve centers its central foreign policy goal, has a right to know
whether or not other countries or groups have received nuclear technologies and
intellectual assistance from Pakistan's rogue elements before Gen. Musharraf
slams the door shut on any independent auditing of his nuclear books. That he
feels the matter can be closed in such a cavalier manner is a slight to American
taxpayers who are funding his very survival, and to civilized people everywhere
who now have to wonder whether terrorists have the materials to not only build
radiological "dirty" bombs, but to build functional nuclear weapons that can
destroy the fabric of peace and humankind.

The Bush White House must be called upon by the American people to compel our
ally, Gen. Musharraf, to open his records for independent verification and
inspection so we can unravel the nuclear black market before more dangerous
transfers are made, and to accept nuclear safeguards - like sensors, alarms,
tamper-proof seals, safekeeping vaults and closed-circuit cameras - that insure
at least Pakistan's nuclear materials are never again available for use by
unauthorized parties.

To do otherwise would be to sew the same seeds for an attack of incalculable
consequences on American soil by terrorists who received aid from an American
ally - funded by American taxpayer money while America's political leaders
looked the other way. It seems, at times, that we learned nothing from the
lessons of the politicized intelligence failures that led to the death, mayhem
and destruction we suffered on September 11, 2001.

Mansoor Ijaz is a Foreign Affairs Analysit for FOX News Channel. Mansoor's
father (deceased), Dr. Mujaddid Ahmed Ijaz, was involved with the "Atoms for
Peace" program for nuclear cooperation between the United States and Pakistan in
the 1960s, and was present at the Pakistani conference where then-Prime Minister
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto asked his nuclear scientists to "build me the bomb." He
taught many of the students that went on to run sensitive parts of Pakistan's
nuclear program today.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby arun » 13 Feb 2004 08:21

The Perkin Elmer "triggered spark gap" story, which the Pakistani's where trying to illicitly obtain, inches along.

FBI in SA for nuclear probe.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55035
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2004 09:22

Any new info about Chagai yield from the experts?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 13 Feb 2004 13:29

Originally posted by Frodo:
Well That dismisses all the myths that I can enter any place without getting attention.
The name Frodo, like "attention" on this forum is a two edged sword. People with worse names stay on because they don't attract attention.

Anyhow - I think Frodo does not break any rules - until we start getting a whole lot of people registreing with copycat names - when Frodo may have to go with the others. It all depends. . .

Just a thought. I may be proven wrong.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 13 Feb 2004 13:48

Originally posted by SSridhar:
Dr.V.S.Arunachalm's take on AXK and TSP proliferation
I KNEW of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan many ye.[color="red"][b]the Pakistani bomb is not an Islamic bomb as claimed by many, but an international one made possible by smuggling of knowledge and components.</font>
[/b]
I find this an interesting statement because it reminds us that it is not merely Xerox Khan, but a whole system of small suppliers and manufaturers from Europe and other countries who have been supplying Xerox Khan with all the stuff he wanted - stuff that could not be made in Packee factories.

Take for example the Malaysian company that fabricated the centrifuge tubes bound for Libya.

There is big money in this business.

Talk of NPT etc are stupid at this point - they are like looking at an elderly lady and thinking that she may have a good looking daugther whom you may like.

There is a whole system out there - little manufacturing concerns - private businesses in the "free world", freely providing "free services" in exchange for sh1tloads of money to help anyone build anything. All these components were supplied long long after all the non-prolif mullahs produced huge papers speaking of the techniques and difficulties of the technology - I still have some on my HDD - and I will link them for laughs - if I get time to look at those papers instead of reading this thread.

This whole nuclear bomb proliferation business seems to have been peopled by the same types of jokers that read seismographs to suit their mindset.

The number of times I am betting my own testimonials - I will need a million of them - and I bet one more that India was fully aware of this rubbish that was going on when it unilaterally decided to go "boom" with its bum in 1998.

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Calvin » 13 Feb 2004 17:28

Shiv: Kalam's comments at the press conference validate the claim that India knew about the commercial nature of the proliferation.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby shiv » 13 Feb 2004 18:33

Actually this thing is a comedy.

I mean - I recall seeing a comedy on TV - can't recall which - may have been the two Ronnies - all suited booted and looking dignified from the front. Then they turned around and they werre completely bare at the back - neck, back, butt, calves heels,

All this proliferation watch tamasha - the megabyte sized pdf files I have on my hard disk - Iran this, Iraq that etc etc - all bull.

Everybody was watching the sutied-booted front . US not proliferating. UK.France not proliferating. halo halo holy holy Russia ummmm.. China ummmmm etc

And then at the back all was bare - every two bit hi tech company could be contacted to manufacture parts for you if you knew what parts to make and the specs for that part and the material. Money no object. designs could be stolen contacts could be cajoled and bribed and EVERYTHING made to order.

Fill gas - pay money to Saudi/Libya - who pay to Pakiland - who pays you in the evening to make him some machines.

What a joke.

Don't EVEN mention the NPT here - this whole non-proliferation business is like finding out that your wife of 20 years has been sleeping with the whole neighborhood.

krithivas
BRFite
Posts: 438
Joined: 20 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Offline

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby krithivas » 13 Feb 2004 18:50

"Nine Pak nuclear scientists abandon jobs"

The dismantling of the Paki nuclear infrastructure has reached its next logical step. Remember Ukraine and other formal Soviet republics .... Uncle went on a hiring spree.

R> Krithivas

jrjrao
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 01 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 13 Feb 2004 19:21

Drip drip. More such info will come out in the days to come. Proving again and again in each instance that Musharraf is an unusually grand liar..

[url=http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2004/02/13/pakistan_had_case_against_scientist/]Pakistan had case against scientist
[/url]

Tim
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: USA

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Tim » 13 Feb 2004 19:29

Calvin,

One other reason Japan might want all the info from Pakistan is because of the Pakistan - North Korea link. Any data they get from Pakistan will supplement their own (and US, and ROK) intelligence collection about that threat. So it may be wholly or partially driven by intelligence needs on North Korea's bomb and missile programs.

Tim

Raj Singh
BRFite
Posts: 101
Joined: 23 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Raj Singh » 13 Feb 2004 21:00

Quote ...............

Retired Lieutenant General Hamid Gul , former head of Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence directorate, tells Contributing Editor Sheela Bhatt that the only reason Pakistan does not dismember India is because "we never wanted to create problems with our Muslim population in India." A startling interview that gives a glimpse of the Pakistani mindset, something that will confront Indian diplomats as they begin peace talks in Islamabad on Sunday.

Part I of the Interview: 'We are walking into the American trap'

What are your views on reports indicting Pakistan for nuclear proliferation?

Why should Pakistan be apologetic about it? Nuke proliferation started because of the US and Russia who have been distributing nuke technologies to their favourites. Israel is a undeclared nuclear power. Whether Pakistan has proliferated or not is not an issue at all.

The important question is does a small country like Pakistan having bad experiences with India and three wars have right to possess nuclear weapons or not? The cause of war still exists over Kashmir. And we have not signed the proliferation treaty.

How can you justify nuclear proliferation?

Why are the Americans then distributing it to Israel? I fear the Americans will demand the joint custody of Pakistani nuclear assets. Or they may say that Pakistan will have to roll back. I remember when Morarji Desai was prime minister of India, it first came out that Pakistan has an Islamic bomb. Desai said, 'How does it hurt India? We have one and they have one.' It's a legitimate desire of any nation to provide for its security needs.

Even America is not afraid of the Pakistani bomb. It is Israel that is afraid of Pakistani nuclear weapons.

But President Musharraf has sided with America.

(Interrupting) Under duress. I don't think his heart is in it. He has the same genes which I have. He was my student, he was my subordinate in the Pakistan army. We have served together. How can he be pro-America?

Is Musharraf anti-Indian as some people claim?

If you put aside Kashmir no Pakistani is anti-India. We like peace with India but not without settling Kashmir. Kashmir is Musharraf's only problem.

What is the bigger issue? The American threat or Kashmir?

You can't put it like that. We have to fight the American threats together. But it is not possible to surrender Kashmir to fight America together.

But India and Pakistan's case is different. America is already on Pakistani soil.

It doesn't matter. America is our bank account!! Just one uprising (against the American presence in Pakistan) and things will change. We are not afraid of the Americans, they can't fight on the ground. We are only concerned about their high-altitude bombers. India and Pakistan must find a solution to their high-altitude bombers.

As ISI chief you have observed India. Do you still feel India can give their land to Pakistan?

India will. India will give its land when it will be divided into many pieces. India will have to be break. If India does not give us our land we will go to war and divide India. This time America helped India.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/13inter.htm

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Calvin » 13 Feb 2004 21:00

Folks, please cut the nonsense.

One interesting angle on this is whether the Chinese engaged in proxy-proliferation. Myanmar may be an interesting study in this regard. Myanmar fits the Chinese pattern of picket fencing their strategic competitors - India, Japan and the US.

1. Did they request China for assistance in their nuclear program?

2. Did they have discussions with NK in regard to missile or nuclear programs?

3. What has happened since the Pak scientists went to Myanmar?

4. Were there any Formal agreemetns with Pak, China, Iran, Libya, or NK with Myanmar.

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Calvin » 13 Feb 2004 21:06

Tim: Presumably Pakistan will be sharing the same information with Israel, then?

jrjrao
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 01 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby jrjrao » 13 Feb 2004 21:07

Nayar has a positive spin on the effects on India from the new Bush plan..

Ali Baba makes Bush toe India nuclear line
K.P. NAYAR
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040213/asp/nation/story_2891315.asp

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby svinayak » 13 Feb 2004 21:12

Originally posted by raj singh:
Quote ...............

Retired [b]Lieutenant General Hamid Gul
, former head of Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence directorate, tells Contributing Editor Sheela Bhatt that [color=blue]the only reason Pakistan does not dismember India is because "we never wanted to create problems with [color=red]our</font> Muslim population in India."</font> A startling interview that gives a glimpse of the Pakistani mindset, something that will confront Indian diplomats as they begin peace talks in Islamabad on Sunday.

[/b]

jarugn
BRFite
Posts: 106
Joined: 05 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby jarugn » 13 Feb 2004 21:13


vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5106
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby vijayk » 13 Feb 2004 23:13

Originally posted by raj singh:
Quote ...............

Part I of the Interview: 'We are walking into the American trap'

Q: [b]But President Musharraf has sided with America.


(Interrupting) Under duress. I don't think his heart is in it. He has the same genes which I have. He was my student, he was my subordinate in the Pakistan army. We have served together. How can he be pro-America?

Q: But India and Pakistan's case is different. America is already on Pakistani soil.

It doesn't matter. America is our bank account!! Just one uprising (against the American presence in Pakistan) and things will change. We are not afraid of the Americans, they can't fight on the ground. We are only concerned about their high-altitude bombers. India and Pakistan must find a solution to their high-altitude bombers.

Q: As ISI chief you have observed India. Do you still feel India can give their land to Pakistan?

India will. India will give its land when it will be divided into many pieces. India will have to be break. If India does not give us our land we will go to war and divide India. This time America helped India.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/13inter.htm[/b]
This is how Paki jihadis think...

Their first goal is to destroy India. Their other goal is to help anyone hurt the US badly. They want to hurt the US with the money and assistance from the Americans.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16885
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby NRao » 13 Feb 2004 23:24

Chicago Tribune: Iran admits it got Pakistani nuclear plans

Subscription site:

Advanced design unrevealed to UN

New York Times News Service.
Tribune news services contributed to this report

February 13, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Confronted with new evidence obtained from the secret network of nuclear suppliers surrounding Pakistan's Abdul Qadeer Khan, Iran has acknowledged it possesses a design for a far more advanced high-speed centrifuge to enrich uranium than it previously revealed to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

The centrifuge, called a P-2 because it marked Pakistan's second-generation design, would have allowed Iran to produce nuclear fuel more quickly than the equipment that it revealed to the UN agency last year. But it is unclear whether Iran succeeded in building the equipment, which is the type that the Khan network supplied to Libya.

Some details of Iran's shift were reported in Thursday's editions of the Financial Times. Iran's new statements to the IAEA are the first evidence that Tehran did not tell the full truth when it turned over to the IAEA documents that it said described all the important elements of its program to enrich uranium.

At the time Iran admitted that the enrichment program had been conducted in secret and out of the view of international inspectors for 18 years.

The revelation has touched off a debate within the American and European intelligence communities over whether the Khan network also sold a full weapon design to Iran, similar to the one found in Libya.

Iran: Not for weapons

On Thursday in Rome, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi denied that the country is pursuing a nuclear weapon and said that the uranium enrichment is intended for fueling nuclear power plants.

"Basically, we do not think that a nuclear weapon is going to bring us more security," Kharrazi said. "It is not part of our doctrine."

He added later that "we do not have anything to hide, and we are ready to be inspected more seriously by IAEA inspectors."

According to diplomats in Vienna, the IAEA compiled evidence suggesting Iran already had more sophisticated uranium enrichment designs than it had admitted.

"Partly the evidence came from Libya, and partly from the network of suppliers and from member states" of the inspection agency, a senior European diplomat said.

Another official said the agency had privately charged Tehran with hiding that fact from the inspectors. The Iranians strongly denied any effort to deceive, the official said.

"The truth is somewhere in the middle," one official said.

The diplomat added that the Iranians had tried to build some prototype P-2 centrifuges but found the steel-rotor devices so difficult to make that they opted instead for the easier P-1 variety, which uses aluminum rotors spinning about half as fast.

He added that if Tehran decided in the future to try manufacturing the more advanced centrifuges, it could probably not do so but would have to rely heavily on imported steel parts.

Given the new disclosures about the Iranian plans and work on advanced centrifuges, he said, the next logical question for the IAEA is whether Iran, like Libya, also got plans for an atom bomb from the Pakistani black market.

"They're asking that," he said.

Fresh antagonism

The finding appeared to set the stage for a new confrontation between Iran and the United States and its European allies.

The Bush administration, which long has accused Iran of seeking nuclear weapons, has been pushing for international sanctions against Iran. Member nations of the IAEA's board of governors could consider referring Iran to the UN Security Council for sanctions at a meeting next month.

"There is no doubt in our mind that Iran continues to pursue a nuclear weapons program," Deputy of Secretary of State Richard Armitage, said in a radio interview. "They have not been fully forthcoming."

Before Thursday's disclosure, Bush administration officials had begun to signal a tougher line against Iran, hinting of new intelligence findings that strongly suggested that Iran was still harboring nuclear secrets.

"Some of these things the IAEA does not yet know," said an administration official.

News of the IAEA's finding came within 24 hours of President Bush's announcement of an initiative aimed at tightening international laws governing the spread of nuclear technology.

Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune


laxmibai
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 23
Joined: 26 Sep 2003 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby laxmibai » 13 Feb 2004 23:28

I have heard Hamid Gul say more than once on Pakistani TV(paraphrasing) "Umrika under se khokhla ho chuka hai aur iskey dhanchey key ghirney mein der nahin " - in other words, Umrika has become hollow from inside and its collapse is not far off.

This appears to be a view which has some currency among Pakistanis. When Mr Giuda of NH appeared on Pakistani TV, he was asked a question to the effect that 'Following the trajectory of the Roman Empire and subsequent empires, is the US also now past its zenith and heading for eventual collapse - since, like those empires, the US is overreaching itself in military campaigns and is having to borrow too heavily to sustain these military campaigns.'

(To Giuda, a gung-ho ex-military guy, this was apparently an incomprehensible view of a hyperpower's fortunes).

Calvin
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Calvin » 14 Feb 2004 01:16

Folks: COuld we cut out the slapstick. Next time if I have to delete someone's irrelevant post, they may lose their privileges.

SubRao
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 13 Feb 2004 12:31
Location: Pennsylvania Av Washington DC

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby SubRao » 14 Feb 2004 02:18

Originally posted by raj singh:
Quote ...............

Retired [b]Lieutenant General Hamid Gul
, former head of Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence directorate, tells Contributing Editor Sheela Bhatt that the only reason Pakistan does not dismember India is because "we never wanted to create problems with our Muslim population in India." A startling interview that gives a glimpse of the Pakistani mindset, something that will confront Indian diplomats as they begin peace talks in Islamabad on Sunday.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/13inter.htm[/b]
http://www.tanzeem.org/tanzeemeislami/radio/conference/03.ra his audio
anyone who can translate the below link would be gr8
http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/hamid_gul.shtml


arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby arun » 14 Feb 2004 09:43

From Singapore's Straits Times :


The nuclear road from Pakistan to Pyongyang

In a televised confession last week, Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan said he had sold nuclear secrets to Libya, Iran and North Korea. More disclosures about the Pakistan-North Korean connection are likely as global efforts intensify to unravel and shut down the nuclear black market. One of these disclosures was made this week when senior North Korean defector Hwang Jang Yop said a top military official in the regime had told him: 'We've solved a big problem. We don't need plutonium this time. Due to an agreement with Pakistan, we will use uranium

By MICHAEL RICHARDSON
FOR THE STRAITS TIMES

WHILE calling for tougher international action to prevent weapons of mass destruction from spreading, United States President George W. Bush spent the first half of his speech on Wednesday focused on one topic: Outlining how US and British intelligence officers had worked over several years to piece together and then expose a nuclear weapons supply chain headed by Pakistani scientist and enrichment specialist Abdul Qadeer Khan.

According to investigators, this nuclear black market involved companies or individuals in at least seven countries, including Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates, Germany, South Africa, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore. The Khan network set up front companies to deceive legitimate firms into selling tightly-controlled materials or items that could be used either for civilian or military purposes, without telling them who the end users would be, said Mr Bush.

But what he did not explain was how the Khan network, which began nuclear weapons trading at least 15 years ago, was able to operate for so long without being detected and shut down by Pakistan and foreign governments.

Still, continuing revelations about the international trafficking in technology and equipment to build nuclear weapons will put added pressure on North Korea to come clean about the full extent of its programme in negotiations that are due to resume in Beijing later this month.

In his televised confession last week, Dr Khan, the scientist who is widely regarded in Pakistan as a national hero because of his work in giving the country a nuclear deterrent, said he had sold nuclear secrets to Libya, Iran and North Korea.

According to Pakistani government and intelligence sources, all three countries received equipment over the last 15 years that was either exported illegally from Pakistan or procured abroad by Dr Khan and his associates. It included centrifuges for enriching uranium so that it can be used in nuclear warheads.

In the case of Libya, US officials say that the Pakistan-based supply network provided not just centrifuge systems for making highly-enriched uranium but also warhead designs, although of a relatively crude type.

It is not yet clear whether North Korea also received Dr Khan's blueprint for making a uranium bomb. This is one of the things Washington wants to find out. US Secretary of State Colin Powell said on Monday that the Pakistan government had done quite a bit to roll up the nuclear weapons supply network. But Mr Powell added that he had told Pakistan's President, General Pervez Musharraf, that 'we wanted to learn as much as we could' about what Dr Khan and the network were up to, 'and it has to be pulled up by its roots and examined to make sure that we have left nothing behind'.

The US has amassed evidence that Pakistan was a key source of uranium enrichment technology and hardware for North Korea, evidently in exchange for North Korean ballistic missiles needed by Pakistan's military to provide a reliable delivery system for its nuclear warheads. With a range of more than 1,000km, the North Korean No-Dong missile enabled Pakistan to target New Delhi and Mumbai - the two main cities of its nuclear rival and long-time adversary, India.

The Federation of American Scientists and other experts have said Pakistan's Ghauri missile series is a copy of North Korea's No-Dong missile. Pakistan has denied this. It also denied this week that it had delivered nuclear technology to North Korea in exchange for missiles. Pyongyang, too, insisted that reports of its nuclear dealings with Islamabad were fabricated.

But more disclosures about the Pakistan-North Korean connection are likely as international efforts intensify to unravel and shut down the nuclear black market. This must worry Pyongyang, which has acknowledged it has a programme to make nuclear weapons from plutonium but refutes reports that it is developing a uranium-based one.

China, too, has refused to accept the US contention that North Korea has a two-track programme. However Beijing's position, which Washington has described as unhelpful, may shift as more evidence comes to light. China's role is crucial because it is by far the largest foreign supplier of fuel and food to North Korea and is hosting the six-party talks that resume on Feb 25.

The other participants are the US, Russia, Japan and South Korea. American insistence, based on intelligence, that North Korea was pursuing uranium enrichment for bomb making triggered the current nuclear crisis in October 2002.

The US case was buttressed this week when a senior North Korean defector told a Japanese newspaper that the North had launched its uranium-based programme in 1996 with the help of Pakistan. Mr Hwang Jang Yop, a former mentor to North Korean leader Kim Jong Il, said in an interview with the Tokyo Shimbun that, not long before he escaped to South Korea, a top military official told him about the deal with Pakistan.

'Jon Pyong Ho came to me, as the person responsible for international affairs, asking: 'Can we buy some more plutonium from Russia or somewhere? I want to make a few more nuclear bombs,' ' the newspaper quoted Mr Hwang as saying. 'But then, before the fall of 1996, he said, 'We've solved a big problem. We don't need plutonium this time. Due to an agreement with Pakistan, we will use uranium.' '

Mr Jon is a member of North Korea's National Defence Committee and a secretary of the country's ruling Workers' Party. Mr Hwang, who defected in 1997, was a former chief of North Korea's legislature.

The writer, a former Asia editor of the International Herald Tribune, is a visiting senior research fellow at the Institute of South-east Asian Studies in Singapore. This is a personal comment.
Meanwhile the BBC suggests that road has been lengthened to also include Yangon, Myanmar :


Thursday, 12 February, 2004, 08:51 GMT
Burma denies N Korea ties

Burma has rejected a suggestion by a senior US congressional adviser that it might be seeking nuclear technology from North Korea.

Keith Luse warned that the US should pay special attention to what he called a growing relationship between the two.

He was part of a US delegation that visited North Korea's Yongbyon nuclear plant in January.

In a statement, the Burmese government said it did not require nor want to develop weapons of mass destruction.

Mr Luse, who works for Senator Richard Lugar, the chairman of the US Senate's Foreign Relations Committee, did not give any details about alleged contact between Burma and North Korea.

During a speech in Washington he said that the relationship needed to be monitored and he asked the open question: "Is North Korea providing nuclear technology to the Burma military?"

Burma said the comments raised "a false and disconcerting alarm."

North Korea has exported Scud missiles to other countries, and claims to have developed nuclear weapons technology.

Russia agreed to help Burma build a nuclear reactor for research purposes in 2002, though it is not clear how far the project has advanced.

John Umrao, I shall not steal your punch line !

Kuttan
BRFite
Posts: 439
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 11 Feb 2004

Postby Kuttan » 14 Feb 2004 17:49

Could someone from DupleeCity / Tubelightabad pls save us all trouble and post a list of countries to which Pakistan has NOT sold nookulear terrorist weapons?

May be shorter...


Return to “Nuclear Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests