India Nuclear News and Discussion - June 26-2007

[Baljeet]

Prem Pravha...Oye Balle Balle tenyu. Very good thought process. Tuh tey mera dil Khus Kar deeta. Kee naam auda Ein Horn..let him sound his horn...we have bigger horn...we should give our expertise to make Iranian Nuke program move forward. Amerikan President is what they say...Lame Duck...Our Bhai...Ahmenidijag is doing balle balle.
Hey Ahmedinijad go fight the kafir...We will get you operatinal.

Do unto others what is done to you. Nuke deal on our terms or let middle east burn and its flame consume Ameerika.

[SSridhar]

MMS talks of a deal soon enough

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has said that "one or two issues" needed to be resolved and hoped that it would be done soon.

"There are one or two issues to be resolved," he said referring to the proposed 123 agreement.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a book release function, he expressed confidence that the agreement will be finalised soon.

He said that he would take Parliament into confidence when the deal is finalised.

"I have been apprising Parliament at every step on the deal. It has never happened earlier," the Prime Minister said while pointing out that he had made statements in the House after July 18, 2005 understanding on the deal, as also before and after the visit of US President George W Bush.

[NRao]

ToI :: June 27, 2007 :: Rice wants India to dump NAM; pledges N-deal will be done


She just wants to muddy the waters. And, subtle arm twisting.

WASHINGTON: Pledging to get the India-US nuclear deal completed before the end of the year, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Thursday invited New Delhi to ditch the non-aligned movement and join a new US-led global alliance of democracies.

In brief but startlingly direct remarks during her address at the annual US Indian Business Council meeting, Dr Rice rubbished New Delhi's long cherished non-alignment ideal, saying it was a Cold War concept and "it has lost its meaning."

Instead of being aligned with the interests and power of one bloc or another like during the Cold War, there could now be a partnership of fellow democracies with common ideals and values, Rice proposed.

"How can we not afford to join each other, on a global scale, to support opportunity and prosperity and justice and dignity and health and education and freedom and democracy?" she asked.

The countries she invoked in proposing this new multi-lateral initiative of democracies and free societies included "Japan and Australia and Korea and our allies in Europe, working with other large multiethnic, multi-religious democracies like Brazil and Indonesia and South Africa."

Although she seemed to cite the names off-handedly in what was a prepared text, the exclusion of China and Russia, in the context of current US troubles with the two countries, was quite striking. Already, there is disquiet in Beijing over a US-forged Asian alliance, ostensibly involving India, Japan and Australia, aimed at isolating China.

Dr Rice's new pitch came after a preamble in which she virtually guaranteed that the India-US nuclear deal would be concluded by the end of the year.

"We're not quite there yet. But with will and determination and more hard work to do, I am certain that we will reach final agreement and be in a position to complete this deal by the end of the year," she said.

Later, during a question and answer session, she said given the path-breaking and difficult decisions taken by President Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, "those of us who are then charged with making it happen have to be tireless in our efforts to make certain that it does happen... I myself am dedicated to getting it done and we need to get it done by the end of the year."

She said she was "quite confident that if we keep after it, if we stay faithful to the agreements that our leaders signed, if we stay faithful to the legislation that we have passed, we can work out the 123 implementing agreement, we can get the approval of our Congress, ratification in India, and we can move forward."

While suggesting there would be a mutual, bilateral bonanza at the end of the nuclear deal Holy Grail, Rice also addressed yet another sticky issue which has soured the mood between the two countries: trade. It would be "a tragedy and a true shame" if the US and India did not come to an agreement on the Doha round she said, even as Commerce Minister Kamal Nath arrived in Washington DC for talks on the issue.

The Bush administration has sharply blamed India (and Brazil to a lesser extent) for the breakdown of talks on the Doha round, saying New Delhi is demanding unreasonable concessions. For the moment, those negotiations are overshadowing the nuclear deal talks.

At the heart of the spat is India's insistence that the US (and EU) should whittle down agricultural subsidies to its farm sector that makes its produce cheaper and will simply decimate the Indian agricultural sector when it opens up for import.

Dr Rice prefaced her two-pronged push on the nuclear deal and Doha round with the familiar praise for Indian democracy and Indian-American achievement without signalling any US concession on the contentious issues.

[ramana]

Texmati has been pushing for GOI changing its Foreign Policy. The Iran vote etc are markers for this.

I was watching the PBS Frontline video on Cheney-Rumsfield manipulation of govt machinery to achieve the neo-con goal of Iraq and the silence of Rice in all that. Either she was a willing conniver and stood aside or she is not as smart as hyped. I think it is the former.

[NRao]

This new hype about 'fellow democracies' is getting to be too much. It is one thing for a naval entity to subscribe to a 1000 ship navy, but a totally different stuff for an entire government to subscribe to a similar concept at a government level.

On the flip side Pranabda seems to have given a 'fitting' answer to her remarks.

Wonder what have the democrates to say about this - bet they also subscribe to this strange thinking.

[John Snow]

raman garu> you are right, I have a good explanantion and visualization of what could have transpired in the realm of FA in this adminidtration.

All the gaps have been filled by an unusual source ... 'The Little Bush' series in Comedy central

Jokes apart I lost your number is there way you can touch base?
TIA

[abhischekcc]

This new hype about 'fellow democracies' is getting to be too much.

I just want to know whether Pakistani setup can be assumed to be a 'Democracy with pakistani characteristics' by Rice.

It is one thing for a naval entity to subscribe to a 1000 ship navy

I have often felt that the 1000 ship pipedream was thought of by the USN chief only because he was feeling neglected in the War of Terror. The US army and AF were getting all the glory, killing from afar. So, he just wanted to tell people in DC that the US has a Navy which can look heroic too.

[John Snow]

Folks read most current India Abroad, WH and big Bush ( Not to be confused with little Bush) are putting pressure on MMS to come to Bush Texas Crawford Ranch (or is it crawl forward Ranch Mushy was there doing it, Saudi guys go there)

May be to dictate MMS to sign on the dotted line,

[John Snow]

Premji,

No problems. I was only responding to your earlier post - which I took to mean that there was some intelligence used to arrive at whatever.

WRT delivering TSP. Sit tight. Enjoy Big B and his gassing.

Or may I suggest Trinity on Drummond in Montreal?

TSP will implode. Do not waste anything on it - specially political capital. India can keep her cake (Iran) and eat it too (Pakistan). A neat trick I would say.

This was what kgoan put in his postulate "Monkey stuck in Jar while GUBO with uncle' eons ago.

[ramana]

Dunno. IF that was the case then the Hyde Act would never have been even thought of. Imagine IF this was the OPEN GoI position prior to the Act passing. Either it was communicated to the US, which I find very hard to believe. I think the following happened:

Here is one scenario.

The UPA figured out after the nomination of President candidature that they do not have the majority in the Parliament. If this deal is signed they could lose the next election 2009 and all state election.

This change is only in the last month or so. Some section of the UPA govt may have supported this deal even with the Hyde Act since they are part of the lobby.

And

Acharya,

If that is a reason, God bless all those illiterates who votes against MMS and party. Even highly educated (in the US Congress) could not achieve what they did.

The Rashtrapati elections in India have opened up a lot of eyes for the chatterati. The great difficulty in finding a suitable candidate for the UPA has revealed the fragility of the coalition and the narrow margin that could swing the balance ~ 60,000. People are now realizing that the uPA governs with a slim margin. JS in Milipitas said that UPA will survive till the people realize its leanings and then it could be end of it.

And the UPA also realizes this. For if their candidate Mrs. Patil, loses the election due to any reason, then its curtains for them as they have to go in for general elections. So they have to ensure that there are no disgruntled allies like the Left or others who have any cause to express their ''conscience " even by abstaining.

Hence this sudden 'tough' stand could be a tactical ploy by UPA to tide over the RB elections and then go for business as usual.

So its not over till its over.

NRao, The Indian mango public (aam janata) has a civilizational memory that the elite forget in their globalization. I suggest reading the folk tale- "Brahmin and the Tiger" and try to relate the characters to modern times.

[Prem]

http://www.rickwalton.com/folktale/bryant33.htm
The ancient tale.

[rocky]

Ramana, the great unanswered question that remains - is what is the INC? What is their motto, what are they striving for? It cannot be for just grapple on power, because that is just a small step in the final process.

[svinayak]

Ramana, the great unanswered question that remains - is what is the INC? What is their motto, what are they striving for? It cannot be for just grapple on power, because that is just a small step in the final process.

This question is unanswered for the last several decades.

[bala]

While the US goes through tortuous/laborious negotiations with India ( a model citizen of Nuclear Restraint and Proliferation) the US forgave a transgressor TSP and also provided F16s without a wink of an eyelid.

Senators blast Bush's handling of of A Q Khan's proliferation activity

US Congressional Panel on the West Asia and South Asia Chairman Gary Ackerman has criticised the Bush Administration for the manner in which it had handled the nuclear proliferation activities of the Pakistani scientist A Q Khan.Nuclear Wal-Mart: Out of Business or Under New Management,'' Congressman Ackerman said, ''On a government to government level, the Bush Administration has refused again and again to press the Pakistani government for direct access to A Q Khan, the one man who could answer all the outstanding questions,'' relating to the proliferation activities.

He said, ''Even though the threat of terrorists getting access to nuclear weapons is cited as the greatest threat to American national security, the President (Bush) has responded by giving Pakistan a squadron of F-16's, a giant 'get out of jail free card' and has declared that the network has been 'shut down'.''

''But the President's facile conclusion and willingness to believe the few answers about the Khan network that the Pakistanis grudgingly provide, ignores the fact that all the incentives and missing safeguards that led the government of Pakistan to encourage A Q Khan in the first place, still exist,'' Ackerman said.

Congressman Joseph Crowley, another Democrat from New York also spoke about the role of scientist Khan in transferring nuclear technology to Iran and Libya.

''The world may never know the full extent to which Pakistani scientist A Q Khan proliferated nuclear secrets and weapons torogue states. But we must hold Pakistan accountable for this serious transgression and for pardoning Dr Khan. Because, the global community cannot tolerate the widespread proliferation of nuclear arms technology,'' Crowley said.

[ShauryaT]

This new hype about 'fellow democracies' is getting to be too much. Wonder what have the democrates to say about this - bet they also subscribe to this strange thinking.

Strategic thinking or not, there is nothing wrong in principle with the idea of a liberal democracy based partnerships of governemnt to achieve common goals. Nudging China towards a democracy and not a self implosion in in the interests of India and the US.

The problem comes, when the supposed leaders of such an alliance make compromises with these very principles for their own perceived self interests. The second issue is the US led part of it. If the US wants to lead such an alliance, it will have to learn how to act as an equal in an alliance and lead the alliance not based on its own self interests but in the interest of the alliance. The US FP is very far away from the above two prerequisites of such an alliance and hence, let Condi talk.

[rocky]

Strategic thinking or not, there is nothing wrong in principle with the idea of a liberal democracy based partnerships of governemnt to achieve common goals. Nudging China towards a democracy and not a self implosion in in the interests of India and the US.

Exactly. Hence we'll get out of NAM just as soon as the US gets out of or abolishes NATO.

[Suraj]

On a related tangent on the subject of US political capital, Bush's immigration bill has effectively been killed a short while ago, in the Senate. Bush is entering the final stretch of his term, with no major breakthroughs, on the domestic or foreign fronts. Interesting position from the nuclear deal perspective...

[John Snow]

Nudging China towards a democracy and not a self implosion in in the interests of India and the US.

Sorry wont buy that 'B*' councilor (as Bill Orally says)

If that be the case CIA should be out of business.

If that is the stated goal then the threat will be used as great tool for extortion.

How many years have passed since the Tinamen square massacre? What ever happened to democracy movement in PRC?

Even the James Fallow guy in the Atlantic magazine spouts the same logic, it the same old story. For any country to be democratic ther must be institutions, and a culture for tolerence and assimilation. PRC is not going to be democratic in any near future as they tout themselves democratic dictatorship and thats the best you can get.

There can never be equal partnership between unequals.

India and US are not equal at this time therefore the pretext of greates democracy and largets democracy are natural allies is only platitudes nothing more. Heck even UK is treated as second rate partner even as it behaves as poodle. Forgrt India US equal partnership.

Look shred of "Rhetoric" and 'Polemics" the US is interested in restraining India and tie it up as a second rate power that can be manipulated to its advantage and nothing wrong for US wants its pound of flesh for being a super power. Democracy is only a convinient fig leaf for people to be fooled. Its a good psy ops tool when yopu opponent does not have democratic system it looses its sheen as soon as the opponents are.

123 -- J18 -- natural allies are all Hide act thats about it.
You want muscle power then use power builder

[bala]

Bush is now a lame duck president and his time/clout is up. India should not harbour any delusions of getting a US-Indo Nuclear Deal. If any, it should be upto the US to deliver its promise otherwise India should say thanks, but no thanks. So far the US has managed to string along India, obtain a veto against Iran, sell a few trinkets to the Armed forces and conduct joint exercises. Meanwhile it refuses to budge on key issues like granting India full NWS status, blocking Permanent Membership in the UN Security Council. It tried to tie up India in processes but the Indian Babus have proven that they are the masters at tiring out the opponents, much to the chagrin of Nick Burns. Condi Rice et al have failed in their primary premise of containing China and using India as valuable ally.

Meanwhile, the US has favored TSP, showered goodies, guboed the Hell out of Musharraf and continues to use their favorite dog in other foras successfully e.g. UNSC expansion: Panel fails to come up with proposal where United for Consensus (UFC) led by Pakistan opposes the expansion in permanent category.

Nuclear non-proliferation, democracy, global warming initiatives are all nice concepts but the Ruling US Republicans don't really give a damn.

[Gerard]

Exactly. Hence we'll get out of NAM just as soon as the US gets out of or abolishes NATO.

NATO invoked its self defense provisions after 9/11 and generally serves US interests.
Does NAM serve Indian interests? IIRC they were not too helpful after the 98 nuclear tests.

Granted, a forum where the US gets bashed by most of the world is useful for psyops purposes

[ShauryaT]

There can never be equal partnership between unequals.

.....
Forgrt India US equal partnership.

This is what the US has to learn, that a big D*** does not automatically give them mating rights with everyone - especially the other big one's such as India, Russia and China. If it wants to lead, then it has to lead as an equal or be prepared to be no longer a first among equals in a very short time. This is the test, it will have to pass in order to retain its leadership for the foreseeable future.

123 -- J18 -- natural allies are all Hide act thats about it.
You want muscle power then use power builder

An ICBM in the front yard and a TN weapon in the back - for everyone is one sure shot way to a peaceful future, ain't it?

Can you really fault the US if they are pursuing their national goals as they see fit in their interests but India does not respond with one united voice and with tactics and processes to achieve its own goals?

If the US wants to castrate India and India allows for such an event, then do not balme the person wielding the knife, only.

[SaiK]

An ICBM in the front yard and a TN weapon in the back - for everyone is one sure shot way to a peaceful future, ain't it?

More precisely, an SLCBM and N-tipped longer range brahmos or equivalent from ATV gives the real peace vibrations right at the adrenals. Added to this, we must have nuke powered ADS.

While that progresses, its very important to depend on new technology reduced CO2 coal thermal plants , hydro especially from the himalayan countries and states, and our best shot Th power.

[rocky]

Does NAM serve Indian interests? IIRC they were not too helpful after the 98 nuclear tests.

Granted, a forum where the US gets bashed by most of the world is useful for psyops purposes

NAM doesn't directly serve Indian interests but it is effectively a tool that can be used as a leverage. Otherwise Condi wouldn't have brought up the topic.

[ShauryaT]

Does NAM serve Indian interests? IIRC they were not too helpful after the 98 nuclear tests.

Granted, a forum where the US gets bashed by most of the world is useful for psyops purposes

NAM doesn't directly serve Indian interests but it is effectively a tool that can be used as a leverage. Otherwise Condi wouldn't have brought up the topic.

What Condi is really saying to India is, India, grow up. The time for US bashing is over. It did not help you in the past and will not in the future.

Ofcourse, it offers as the alternative for India to be its poodle. Something, the Indian leaders will have to resist and come to a new middle ground based on Indian Interests.

[John Snow]

The point is stop BSinng about democracy, human rights , and excessive use of force against terrorist when it doesnt hurt uncle. While doing it all the other way.
Read the de classified CIA about Iran contra and how the axis of evil was being sold arms.... and Iraqis the chemical weapons.
Recently the Iraqi paraliment member was talking about wanting to know who supplied the chemical ali all the ingredients. But then he is hanging.

We waited for 24 years before doing the right thing after 1974.
Dont lose even a single day in doing the right thing. Thats all is the message.

Just take a look at amount of arms being pumped into TSP while preaching about democracy when it suits.

Nobody is finding fault with uncle for doing what is right for its people dont just BS and arm adversaries of democracies if it doesnt hurt that all. If you have trouble understanding the obvious. I leave it you.

[SaiK]

Uncle view point is don't say Uncle is BSing etc... Either join the BSitters club or shut up, is what it is all about.

Re: Arming TSP. Do you have to power to arm my enemies. Can you play with me at intl politics as I play? Do you have the stuffs I have to talk equality.. If I catch your shirt, do you have the guts to go for my balls? Do you have it? eh!

[vsudhir]

SaiK is right.

India sounding like Krishna Menon MarkII would be awfully boring, apart from insufferable.

This is the way the game's always been played. Either we learn it the hard way (like Nehru and the rest of us did painfully in '62) or learn it the easy way (by observing what unkil can get away with and maneuver to gobble up what we can get away with).

Jai Hind.

[ShauryaT]

Nobody is finding fault with uncle for doing what is right for its people dont just BS and arm adversaries of democracies if it doesnt hurt that all. If you have trouble understanding the obvious. I leave it you.

My view is it is not BS, it is a dichotomy.

[ShauryaT]

Uncle view point is don't say Uncle is BSing etc... Either join the BSitters club or shut up, is what it is all about.

Re: Arming TSP. Do you have to power to arm my enemies. Can you play with me at intl politics as I play? Do you have the stuffs I have to talk equality.. If I catch your shirt, do you have the guts to go for my balls? Do you have it? eh!

What did China have in 1950-53, when it waged war with the USA over Korea. A ruthless dictator and the willingness to loose half its population. If the only factor for winning wars and FP goals is big guns then what lessons are to be learnt from USSR in Afghanistan, USA in Vietnam and US in Iraq 2?

[ramana]

K.P. Nayar in Telegraph, 29 June 2007

Delhi Fires Bush Brahmastra




[quote]
Delhi fires Bush Brahmastra
K.P. NAYAR

Bush
Washington, June 28: Indian negotiators on the nuclear deal have put the Americans on the mat by pointing out that their President, George W. Bush, has promised reprocessing rights to India and said so in public.

India’s new negotiating strategy on the so-called 123 Agreement to operationalise the nuclear deal is, therefore, to treat the issue of reprocessing spent fuel produced by any American reactors imported by India as an issue which has already been settled.

Reprocessing rights for India has been one of the stumbling blocks in concluding the 123 Agreement even after several rounds of talks between the two sides for 15 months.

India’s negotiators on the 123 Agreement, S. Jaishankar and Raminder Singh Jassal, met their American interlocutor, Richard J.K. Stratford, for a round of unannounced talks here on Tuesday.

The absence of agreement on reprocessing during talks between diplomats and technical experts on both sides has now forced New Delhi to use its Brahmastra, which is Bush’s commitment on reprocessing.

At his joint news conference with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in New Delhi’s Hyderabad House on March 2, 2006, Bush acknowledged that he had advocated reprocessing rights for India.

“I proposed reprocessing agreements — that stands in stark contrast to current nuclear theology that we should not reprocess for proliferation concerns,â€

[vsudhir]

Good.

If the reproc issue is amicably, and more importantly fool-proofedly, settled between GOI and GOTUS, nothing like it.

Still need to keep our eyes open for an FMCO backdoor CRE campaign. What will GOTUS offeras a carrot to COTUS to pass a 123 signed along J18 lines otherwise?

[asprinzl]

I don't see how a deal can go through. Even if MMS made a commitment, he still has to seek the green light from Indian parliament. The same way, even if Bush made a commitment, he still needs the Comgress to give him the final go-ahead.

Thus regarless of his promise on the reprocessing rights, he cannot move an inch without Congress. His position is made more vulnerable because

1) He is a lame duck President,

2) defection among his Republican supporters mainly due to the mess in Iraq

3) Democrats (more friendly to NPT Ayatollahs) are ascending now and will only see their clout increase

Avram

[SaiK]

The nuclear deal, he said, is more an issue of trust between the two governments than anything else.

American constitution is way too legally bound of acts that it has created and by only amending those laws, one expect the word "trust" to be used by their side. Other than what they stamp on greenbacks "In God We Trust", rest is all legal documents., and mostly written for capitalistic gains (onlee).

Sope,.. good luck!

Uncle view point is don't say Uncle is BSing etc... Either join the BSitters club or shut up, is what it is all about.

Re: Arming TSP. Do you have to power to arm my enemies. Can you play with me at intl politics as I play? Do you have the stuffs I have to talk equality.. If I catch your shirt, do you have the guts to go for my balls? Do you have it? eh!

What did China have in 1950-53, when it waged war with the USA over Korea. A ruthless dictator and the willingness to loose half its population. If the only factor for winning wars and FP goals is big guns then what lessons are to be learnt from USSR in Afghanistan, USA in Vietnam and US in Iraq 2?

1. The all powerful Soviets.
2. Technological capabilities of Soviets were at par with Uncle then.
3. China had a huge population 8 times american population.. and more importantly they don't mind killing half of them for war. they had a million dead while amriks was only 50 thousand.
4. The aegis of the soviet commands including their atoms, plus all the evil working or NK, China and the big erstwhile are enough.

and much more..

Besides, we don't even have an agenda like China. Why compare? We should look only at the display of our muscle than asking someone for a bout. The new mantra is not about following china or its stupid behaviors, but to show the "gandib-am" (danush).

[ShauryaT]

1. The all powerful Soviets.

Sure. The statistics of who killed how many on each side and how many aircrafts and tanks were downed on each side, really shows the power of the the all powerful and mighty.

2. Technological capabilities of Soviets were at par with Uncle then.

You actually still believe the the Soviet non sense...People who are at par do not sacrifice 28 million of their bretheren....I am talking about the number of Soviet cusualties in the second world war. Simple test - the best demonstration of technology is the control of the air and sea - who controlled those things in the Korean war?

3. China had a huge population 8 times american population.. and more importantly they don't mind killing half of them for war. they had a million dead while amriks was only 50 thousand.

Correction. The chinese love themselves as much as the American or Indian does. It just so happens, they had a mad man at the helm, who was willing to sacrifice his country men in the interests of his perception of larger goals.

4. The aegis of the soviet commands including their atoms, plus all the evil working or NK, China and the big erstwhile are enough.

and much more..

Do not follow...

Besides, we don't even have an agenda like China. Why compare?

My point simply was, waiting for some kind of magical parity or increase in strength of the GDP or number of war planes is not the only measure of the fight in the dog.

What do you mean by, we do not have an agenda like China? Our defense and strategic security needs just in our very region, across our land borders and the IOR surpass anything that China is faced with. Just because most of our leaders have been blind to the issues does not mean the issues have melted away. If anything, they have worsened. At its most extreme end, our agenda is quite radical (A neo con view of Indian Interests).

The new mantra is not about following china or its stupid behaviors, but to show the "gandib-am" (danush).

The last thing, I will call China is, stupid. Their leaders, even their mad leaders know how to act in their interests, sometimes stretching themselves but far better than the state of paralysis GoI, perpetually seems to be in the areas of defense and strategic security, except for some flashes here and there.

[NRao]

Strategic thinking or not, there is nothing wrong in principle with the idea of a liberal democracy based partnerships of governemnt to achieve common goals. Nudging China towards a democracy and not a self implosion in in the interests of India and the US.

Sorry, was traveling.

Did you know that Taiwan supports Main land China on the Arunachal Pradesh issue? A Demo Mainland China would be a formidable country with T's backing. Just a thought.

There are other similar problems, but it deviates from this thread.

One last point. No matter what happens, history has shown that everyone and his grand father wants India - both for location and resources. Resources, this time is humans. I do not think even the US looks at seeing an improved Indian middle class. They look at that segment of teh population as potential for selling and making money.

This talk of demo is just BS. Besides, I would like a multi-polar world.

[SaiK]

By marking chinese stupidity I meant their playing at threshold levels of a global disaster that of course could have happened with USA and the soviets crossing their "cold"-ness thresholds. But, IMHO, its my understanding that America would never had ventured into bombing Hiroshima if the country was occupied by "whites"[sorry for that racist comment, but thats my view]. The fallouts would have been worse for entire Asia, especially after a double blow. Of course I am falling with UN line here, with only chinese being stupid while America should more stupid to use nuclear weapons at any point of time. Thanks to UN displeasure of American thoughts of using nukes.

It was then.. not now, I don't think any fool would venture into any such threshold crossing exercise. Why did Vajpayee restricted our armed forces not to cross the border whilst Kargil. It was not because we had pressures from Unkil-land about escalations.. We know, about after-effects and we weren't stupid.

We don't have to wage wars to show our capabilities.. Our agenda is different. Our goals are for force projection, such that things falls to within the thresholds of such idiotic ventures by chinese. Thanks to Pok2, chinese realized that its not going to be easy at mucking with us for ever.

Of course, we have our own leadership stupidities.. again, we can't blame our leaders for it. who are they after all, with out "us".

[Suraj]

Did you know that Taiwan supports Main land China on the Arunachal Pradesh issue? A Demo Mainland China would be a formidable country with T's backing. Just a thought.

Reality is far more complex. It is the Pan Blues, the Kuomintang, who are associated with this position, not the country at large. The KMT originate from Sun Yat Sen and Chiang Kai Shek, and are the stock who escaped to Taiwan after the Civil War. The Tibet/AP positions arise from the old 'Five Peoples' and anti imperialist positions. However the KMT has since changed, and they espouse a more pragmatic status quoist position rather than reunification on anti-Communist terms. Further, the Pan Greens, the independence brigade supported by native Taiwanese and active in southern Taiwan, don't have anything to do with the Chinese nationalist stance. To say that Taiwan supports PRC on AP is not true. In fact, the current Taiwanese political scenario provides us a lot of scope for getting our position supported, in exchange for recognition for them. But this is a subject outside the scope of this thread.

[NRao]

Surajji,

So, what may happen IF Mainland goes Demo? Will their minds sync?

I am not looking for an answer.

[sivab]

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 291901.htm

In a break from existing norms, the chosen manufacturer will have to spend 50 percent as direct offsets on the aircraft or defence manufacturing industry in India, the official announcement said. Under current rules, there is a 30 per cent offset clause in all defence deals worth over Rs 300 crores.

Unkil has been offered carrot (F-18 ) for nuke deal. Boeing was pushing for this and its wish has been granted. Instead of 30% offset in defence industry, now it has been relaxed to 50% offset in defence and aircraft industries. Boeing, Airbus and Russia would be easy qualifiers and others (F-16, Grippen) will find it tough.

[Suraj]

Surajji,

So, what may happen IF Mainland goes Demo? Will their minds sync?

I am not looking for an answer.

Boss, you're looking at the wrong reason for either PRC/KMT or a theoretical unified nation syncing in that manner. Democracy doesn't necessarily equate to a move to emphasize some nationalist artifact. It'll happen if nationalist irredentism is somehow used as a unifying tool, whatever the political contours may be. Being democratic itself doesn't automatically translate to anything. Anyway that's enough diversion of this thread.