India Nuclear News and Discussion - June 26-2007

NRao
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Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2007 00:07

Mort Walker wrote:I just got this in my recent IEEE Spectrum. An article by M.V. Ramana that is titled More Missiles Than Megawatts

The link is from M.V. Ramana's web-site. I don't know what his issue is, but appears to be a self-hating Indian.


M.V. Ramana is a senior fellow at the Centre for Interdisciplinary Studies in Environment and Development, in Bangalore, India, where he researches India's nuclear energy and weapons programs. He is on the National Coordinating Committee of India's Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace and the Global Council of Abolition–2000, a network aiming to abolish nuclear weapons. His papers are available at


Typical Yahoo.

Disarm India and find universal peace. :)

Arm China, US, Russia, France and UK (please remind me why the last two need nukes) and find (lunatic) stability.

Sloooow day.

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Postby svinayak » 10 Jul 2007 00:13

Economic comparision and cost analysis of India's nuclear program and weapons program was started as a favourite tool of psy ops in the 60s.

No country has succumbed to this kind of silly psy ops like India has in the last 40 years.

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Postby Gerard » 10 Jul 2007 00:25

The link is from M.V. Ramana's web-site. I don't know what his issue is, but appears to be a self-hating Indian.


He is the author of many many articles espousing restraint in "south asia"... an intellectual coolie who faithfully serves his NPA masters...

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Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2007 01:02

Not on nukes, but great insight (very, very short):

Kalam: 'Country faces shortage of leadership with nobility'

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Postby svinayak » 10 Jul 2007 01:15

NRao wrote:Not on nukes, but great insight (very, very short):

Kalam: 'Country faces shortage of leadership with nobility'


Kalam, who prepares to demit office later this month, noted that "a nation fails not because of economic progress but because of an increase in decision makers with small minds" and said that it casts a "very heavy responsibility on the judicial system to live up to the expectations."

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Postby SaiK » 10 Jul 2007 02:15

mm.. I thought what Kalam said was more applicable to my family. Now it looks like we have a billion family (I am banking on Kalam ji on this generalization) with no nobility in leadership qualities.

We all should be ashamed of ourselves having given into a setup that can't make him get the second term in office. Having setup a corrupted bureaucracy to live, where else intelligent men keep their minds? They can never get into politics (exception Kalam etc), that would keep babooism to gain some respect.

Nominated bodies are best to deal with this nuclear deal. I think we should ask Kalam ji to setup a team to deal with Indo-US nuclear deal., that should take politics to refinement such that we deal to benefit rather paint on our foreheads with a big L.

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Postby bala » 10 Jul 2007 03:47

I cannot ascertain whether this is the new direction of TSP's H&D Friend China to kill the US-India Nuke Deal, but now the CPI&M weighs in with "Harmful" parts of Hyde Act should be changed

CPI(M) has asked the Government not to proceed with it unless Washington changes "harmful" provisions of the law passed by US Congress on the deal.

Alleging that "unacceptable terms (have been) set for India's foreign policy" under the Henry Hyde Act, the key outside supporter of the Congress-led coalition said "the Government should not proceed with the 123 bilateral negotiations (to operationalize the deal) without getting the United States to change the harmful provisions."

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Postby ramana » 10 Jul 2007 04:39

Deccan Chronicle, 9 july 2007

[quote]
Letters to MPs on nuke deal


New Delhi, July 9: The heat has again been turned on just before national security adviser M.K. Narayanan and foreign secretary Shivshankar Menon leave for Washington for what could be a “make or breakâ€

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Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2007 06:09

Now, MMS has to make public his thinking. He just can no longer hide behind a sentence or two.

If such high level scicoms are STILL making noise to shoot this deal down and MMS is STILL playing games, by attempting to split scicom, then it is a lot more serious than we all thought. It has got to be.

I still feel that the best MMS can do is to resign. I have to also suspect that that thought has crossed the minds of the Bush admin and they are also pressuring him, in fact probably threatening, with some negative consequences. Tashkent all over again?

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Postby Manne » 10 Jul 2007 06:20

The words emerging unity make me want to LOL. I mean, really, how can journos be so blind! *sigh*

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Postby Satya_anveshi » 10 Jul 2007 10:26

So..what scientists have done effectively is to let everyone know that MMS an his cronies are traitors. This type of thing is a very last resort attempt to stop the nonsense.

It will be totally..totally blatant rape of India if MMS and his cronies were to go ahead and sign the deal in its current form.

Left, opposition (BJP), and we as public are witnessing draupadi's cheer haran and no one is able to do anything. MMS is ready to go down in history as someone who sold is mother (nation), after having kept his daughter in US for safe keep.

Good job.

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Postby nkumar » 10 Jul 2007 10:38

I hold Middle Class and Media as the biggest culprit. They make all sorts of noises when something effects them directly/indirectly like Reservation/Jessica Lal case/Shivaji-The Boss/Cricket etc. But they are not worried too much about national security. Some take it for granted and some do not have the right info thanks to our media.

Somebody has to protest. Even if 50 people protest in front of parliament and media covers it, then it could have some effect. Nothing happens in this country unless politicians fear loss of votes.

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Postby Philip » 10 Jul 2007 14:12

Taking off from our most popular Pres ever and popular statesman of India since Gandhi.The lack of upright leaders has never been so lacking ashighlighted by this presidential race.Like Caesar's wife,the candidate and his/her family must be "above suspicion".It is utterly shameful that the Congress is drawing a distinction between Pratibha and her parasitical relatives who have directly benefited from her largesse,defrauding trusts in the process and even worse too have murder charges to against them!

This reputation beggars even those of some former residents of Rashtarpati Bhavan.One was so spineless that he would sign anything even at midnight on behalf of his lady boss.Another smoker ,known as "India's King",had a fondness for India King fags with the presidential emblem on the band at his regal residence.That was a virute compared with other occupants of the palace.His predecessor's large proportioned wife had a fondness for Kanchi sarees and anything that caught her fancy for which she rarely if ever paid.On an official trip to Sri Lanka,a "thunderbox" had to be made in haste at midnight for her as she was too large for the WC! Another gent from the countryside on official visits abroad,used to fill the jumbo sized Air India aircaft used by him with jumbo sized contingents of his family members and cronies.His alleged links with extremists and plots against the state made from the palace were debated in public.Another had a son who advertised in the papers ,giving as contact numbers the unlisted telephone numbers of Rashtrapathi Bhavan,for "stud services" of his Bulldog.He used to attend dog shows guarded by black cats,much to the amusement of the public who wondered whether they were to protect him from the other dogs.His so-called "bulldog" was once even thrown out of the ring at a prestigious show at Ooty for not meeting the required standards of that breed! Yet another allegedy moaned in despair about his missing money given to his favourite religious leader for safekeeping whcih had magically evaporated!

Pratibha's track record beggars these tales and should she become our president,it will be a day of disgrace and utter shame,that a candidate with such a sordid history behind her should have been elected.It only goes to underline what Pres.Kalam has said and reveals the true of chracter of our politicos who might elect her.

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Postby Manav » 10 Jul 2007 15:19

Philip wrote:Taking off from our most popular Pres ever and popular statesman of India since Gandhi.The lack of upright leaders has never been so lacking ashighlighted by this presidential race.Like Caesar's wife,the candidate and his/her family must be "above suspicion".It is utterly shameful that the Congress is drawing a distinction between Pratibha and her parasitical relatives who have directly benefited from her largesse,defrauding trusts in the process and even worse too have murder charges to against them!

This reputation beggars even those of some former residents of Rashtarpati Bhavan.One was so spineless that he would sign anything even at midnight on behalf of his lady boss.Another smoker ,known as "India's King",had a fondness for India King fags with the presidential emblem on the band at his regal residence.That was a virute compared with other occupants of the palace.His predecessor's large proportioned wife had a fondness for Kanchi sarees and anything that caught her fancy for which she rarely if ever paid.On an official trip to Sri Lanka,a "thunderbox" had to be made in haste at midnight for her as she was too large for the WC! Another gent from the countryside on official visits abroad,used to fill the jumbo sized Air India aircaft used by him with jumbo sized contingents of his family members and cronies.His alleged links with extremists and plots against the state made from the palace were debated in public.Another had a son who advertised in the papers ,giving as contact numbers the unlisted telephone numbers of Rashtrapathi Bhavan,for "stud services" of his Bulldog.He used to attend dog shows guarded by black cats,much to the amusement of the public who wondered whether they were to protect him from the other dogs.His so-called "bulldog" was once even thrown out of the ring at a prestigious show at Ooty for not meeting the required standards of that breed! Yet another allegedy moaned in despair about his missing money given to his favourite religious leader for safekeeping whcih had magically evaporated!

Pratibha's track record beggars these tales and should she become our president,it will be a day of disgrace and utter shame,that a candidate with such a sordid history behind her should have been elected.It only goes to underline what Pres.Kalam has said and reveals the true of chracter of our politicos who might elect her.


You are not kidding....right?

Who are these 'former residents of Rashtrapati Bhavan'?

I don't mean to question the veracity of what you say - I just did not know about these things. Perhaps you could suggest some materials that I could read up?

Thanks

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Postby vsudhir » 10 Jul 2007 16:43

Somebody has to protest. Even if 50 people protest in front of parliament and media covers it, then it could have some effect. Nothing happens in this country unless politicians fear loss of votes.


Totally agree.

DDM and manipulative phoren media have often given psy-ops coverage to non-events like 'Patna protests against racism against Shilpa shetty' kinda BS.

Could folk give any rating of our news channels in terms of awareness of indian interests and governance issues? I think NDTV and CNN-IBN are suspect whereas aajtak and zee are a shade better?

The ability to control media is precisely what sets cheen apart from the rest of Asia. The ability to control 'the debate', like they say.[/quote]

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Postby nkumar » 10 Jul 2007 18:31

Could folk give any rating of our news channels in terms of awareness of indian interests and governance issues? I think NDTV and CNN-IBN are suspect whereas aajtak and zee are a shade better?


I think Rajat Sharma of India TV is an honest man, they may take up the issue if someone approaches them. Other channels can be approached to. If some people are serious about protesting, we can discuss this issue further.

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Postby ramana » 10 Jul 2007 19:22

Manav, Philip is 100% correct. You should try to read up on the RB occupants from the late 60s. You will get the names in chronological order.

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Postby Manav » 10 Jul 2007 19:23

ramana wrote:Manav, Philip is 100% correct. You should try to read up on the RB occupants from the late 60s. You will get the names in chronological order.


OK. Will do. Any suggested sources? Actually, its not that I don't believe Philip, it's just that I find what he mentioned with reference to the RB occupants unbelievable!

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Postby vera_k » 10 Jul 2007 22:18

pradeepe wrote:So onto new lows now, even IEEE is not spared of these shenanigans. What next?


This is hardly surprising. Over the past decade IEEE-USA's immigration policy has led to a palace coup of sorts by anti-immigration activists. Exhibit number 1 here on the IEEE-USA board is Ron Hira, an activist of Indian descent. Our friend Ron here is also associated with CNN talk show host Lou Dobbs another fellow who is a immigrant baiter with far right views.

IEEE-USA accounts for 75% of the total membership of IEEE and 85% of these members are native born (read white). The anti-immigration policies of IEEE-USA disproportionately affect Indians given that nearly 40% of all employment based immigrants to the US originate from India.

Please reconsider your support if you have a subscription to IEEE or are paying dues.

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Postby svinayak » 10 Jul 2007 22:41

bala wrote:I cannot ascertain whether this is the new direction of TSP's H&D Friend China to kill the US-India Nuke Deal, but now the CPI&M weighs in with "Harmful" parts of Hyde Act should be changed

CPI(M) has asked the Government not to proceed with it unless Washington changes "harmful" provisions of the law passed by US Congress on the deal.


It is fake. They are aware of the details long before and they have seperate dialogue with western powers.

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Postby Rye » 10 Jul 2007 23:22

MV Ramana's article in the IEEE is very motivated to mislead all the NRI-techie crowd which tends to take all the IEEE articles as the gospel and hiss and spit at anyone who suggests otherwise. The aim appears to be confuse the NRIs in the US about the reality w.r.t. India's nuke programs, military and civilian.

Congratulations to the a**hole, MV Ramana, for pimping himself to the American NPA scum once again --- hope he gets himself a pretty new dress with all the newly-earned lifafa loot.

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Postby NRao » 10 Jul 2007 23:42

What is preventing a more balanced article in the IEEE?

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Postby Sudhanshu » 11 Jul 2007 00:12

I read the complete article.

And trust me, the statistics and arguments made me believe that really we had jeopradised our potential and feasible nuclear energy growth by unbalanced and unrequired pursue for very high numbers of nuclear weapon.

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Postby nkumar » 11 Jul 2007 01:00

I read the complete article.

And trust me, the statistics and arguments made me believe that really we had jeopradised our potential and feasible nuclear energy growth by unbalanced and unrequired pursue for very high numbers of nuclear weapon.


Nothing can be done considering the geo-strategic scenario around India. For almost 1 full millenium, India has been at the receving end. N-weapons are needed so that we do not have to fight another war which could destabilize our economy. Economy can only be build in a safe atmosphere.

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Postby ramana » 11 Jul 2007 01:48

Also:
"There are lies, damned lies and statistics" Mark Twain

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Postby Mort Walker » 11 Jul 2007 02:23

Please reconsider your support if you have a subscription to IEEE or are paying dues.


I've been an IEEE member for a long time (nearly 20+ years), and they've had a mixed record on the Indo-US nuclear deal. In the previous month's issue, they had an article about India's defense modernization and mentioned the Aero-India show in Banagalore. That article also mentioned the nuke deal and was for it (as it helped US defense contractors).

I know IEEE has an anti-immigration attitude and on most articles in Spectrum, I've felt its been India-neutral or positive, but often they will get DDM equivalents be it from India or elsewhere.

On a side note, I won't be giving up IEEE membership because of the insurance services and technical journals that I need in my profession.

I would kindly like to suggest to the BRF members to look in other professional magazines about the Indo-US nuke deal and other matters concerning Indian defense. Particularly the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) and American Physical Society (APS).

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Postby jmaxwell » 11 Jul 2007 04:53

I have a noobie question for the experts on this thread. Based on this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country, India has 16 reactors but produces only 3557 MW whereas Brazil has only 2 reactors but produces 1901 MW. What gives?

Are the Indian reactors smaller for safety concerns? Does Brazil have better nuclear tech (perhaps with Unkil's help)? Will the new reactors in construction improve on the power output per reactor?

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Postby Sanatanan » 11 Jul 2007 08:06

Relevant portions from an article in Asian Age of 11th July 2007 are quoted below:

Goofs and gaffes of Indian diplomacy

By Satish Chandra

While Indian diplomacy has, over the years, had its share of bloomers — even monumental ones, such as the recognition of China’s sovereignty over Tibet or the misplaced generosity shown to Pakistan in 1972 at Simla — it has been exempt from the series of goofs and gaffes which have characterised it over the last couple of years.

. . .

India’s unnecessary and unjustified vote, extracted under US pressure, at the IAEA against Iran seriously damaged our hitherto friendly relations with the latter. By vividly demonstrating the extent to which India had become a US camp follower, this vote also adversely affected our standing in the international community and impinged negatively on our ties with countries like Russia and China.

. . .

Government’s persistence with trying to concretise the nuclear deal with the US, even though it will cripple our strategic capabilities and reduce us to a US dependency, without doing much for our energy security, is nothing short of an unmitigated foreign policy disaster. Indeed, many of the aforementioned foreign policy goofs emanate, in some measure, from the tectonic shift in India’s foreign policy from that of a country with a
fiercely independent foreign policy to that of a client state of the United States. In the process, time tested approaches to various issues are being sacrificed and the resulting changes are being marketed as "out of the box" solutions even though these may be against stated national policy and the national interest.

Rigorous professionalism could, perhaps, have averted at least some of our foreign policy gaffes, as it would have kept the government focused on the straight and narrow of national interest, and prevented it from straying down the slippery slope of "doable" exercises in pursuit of "out of the box" solutions. But respect for such professionalism is at a discount as evidenced by the following decisions pertaining to the management of
our foreign policy establishment:

* Repeated grant of extensions to several over the hill long retired Foreign Service officers as heads of missions in some of our most coveted posts abroad. This has demoralised serving Foreign Service officers by adversely affecting their career prospects and given a further fillip in the service to our national failing: sycophancy.

* The appointment of innumerable special envoys on foreign policy related issues. This impinges adversely on the role of the foreign secretary as well as serving officers.

. . .

* Entrusting conduct of negotiations on the nuclear deal not to the head of the concerned technical division in the ministry of external affairs but to the former head of the America’s division who is currently on an assignment abroad. It is said that he works nights on the nuclear deal and days on mission work.

Satish Chandra has served as India’s PR to the UN in Geneva, High Commissioner to Pakistan, and Deputy National Security Adviser

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Postby Mort Walker » 11 Jul 2007 08:13

According to M.V. Ramana's article in IEEE, India has 17 reactors that generate 4100 MWe or 3% of the total electricity production. It also states reactors are now operating at 56% output as opposed to 74% three years ago. Is all this true?

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Postby Vivek_A » 11 Jul 2007 09:05

Sanatanan wrote:Relevant portions from an article in Asian Age of 11th July 2007 are quoted below:

Goofs and gaffes of Indian diplomacy

India’s unnecessary and unjustified vote, extracted under US pressure, at the IAEA against Iran seriously damaged our hitherto friendly relations with the latter. By vividly demonstrating the extent to which India had become a US camp follower, this vote also adversely affected our standing in the international community and impinged negatively on our ties with countries like Russia and China.



Relations with China were hurt...That's bad bad bad bad..Now they might get pissed off and arm TSP.

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Postby merlin » 11 Jul 2007 10:16

It also states reactors are now operating at 56% output as opposed to 74% three years ago. Is all this true?


I don't know about the exact percentages, but recently there was an article in ToI (I think) which stated that TAPP-3 had recently reached 100% of design output whereas other reactors were lower and this was because of shortage of fuel. The blurb also stated that this shortage was likely to ease when the new mines become operational in a few years time.

So it looks like low capacity factors are caused primarily because of shortage of fuel caused by slowdown in opening new mines.

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Postby vera_k » 11 Jul 2007 10:55

Mort Walker wrote:According to M.V. Ramana's article in IEEE, India has 17 reactors that generate 4100 MWe or 3% of the total electricity production. It also states reactors are now operating at 56% output as opposed to 74% three years ago. Is all this true?


According to the figures available at http://www.npcil.nic.in, capacity factors dropped to approx. 65% in 2006-2007. This is consistent with the need to stockpile WgPu in the runup to the FMCT :wink: . Just saying there's more than one explanation available.

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Postby kit » 11 Jul 2007 12:01

Dude you seem to be pretty well informed on the happenings .. nice to see that guys like you are around !!


Philip wrote:Taking off from our most popular Pres ever and popular statesman of India since Gandhi.The lack of upright leaders has never been so lacking ashighlighted by this presidential race.Like Caesar's wife,the candidate and his/her family must be "above suspicion".It is utterly shameful that the Congress is drawing a distinction between Pratibha and her parasitical relatives who have directly benefited from her largesse,defrauding trusts in the process and even worse too have murder charges to against them!

This reputation beggars even those of some former residents of Rashtarpati Bhavan.One was so spineless that he would sign anything even at midnight on behalf of his lady boss.Another smoker ,known as "India's King",had a fondness for India King fags with the presidential emblem on the band at his regal residence.That was a virute compared with other occupants of the palace.His predecessor's large proportioned wife had a fondness for Kanchi sarees and anything that caught her fancy for which she rarely if ever paid.On an official trip to Sri Lanka,a "thunderbox" had to be made in haste at midnight for her as she was too large for the WC! Another gent from the countryside on official visits abroad,used to fill the jumbo sized Air India aircaft used by him with jumbo sized contingents of his family members and cronies.His alleged links with extremists and plots against the state made from the palace were debated in public.Another had a son who advertised in the papers ,giving as contact numbers the unlisted telephone numbers of Rashtrapathi Bhavan,for "stud services" of his Bulldog.He used to attend dog shows guarded by black cats,much to the amusement of the public who wondered whether they were to protect him from the other dogs.His so-called "bulldog" was once even thrown out of the ring at a prestigious show at Ooty for not meeting the required standards of that breed! Yet another allegedy moaned in despair about his missing money given to his favourite religious leader for safekeeping whcih had magically evaporated!

Pratibha's track record beggars these tales and should she become our president,it will be a day of disgrace and utter shame,that a candidate with such a sordid history behind her should have been elected.It only goes to underline what Pres.Kalam has said and reveals the true of chracter of our politicos who might elect her.

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Postby Philip » 11 Jul 2007 12:55

Guys,hard facts from informed first person sources.There are many just too hot to post.Here's another hilarious (alleged) first person tale to savour-this time about a former rustic Dy.PM.He landed at Palam in his VVIP helo which was stuffed with bags and bundles.There was a 4* "brassy" boss also in the VVIP lounge who was there on official duty.Knowing him,he saluted the Deputy PM and greeted him warmly.However,the Dy.PM did not leave the lounge immediately, but was totally immersed in scrutinising and supervising the unloading of his mountainous baggage.When he was politley asked by the "brassy" uniformed gent why he did not leave this arduous task to the airport staff,he replied thus in rustic fashion."In my day a 100 rupee note in my state could buy me a vote.These days I have to pay more for just bringing one person to a meeting.That's why I need sacks of money which you see is being unloaded and if I don't watch carefully,these chors at the airport will steal half of it!

Obviously he was talking from experience!

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Postby Rye » 11 Jul 2007 23:04

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=487644

Please pass the biscooth.

PM, Bush discuss N-deal over phone

NEW DELHI, JUL 11 (PTI)

Ahead of a high-level meeting between India and the US on the civil nuclear deal, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh today spoke over the phone to President George W Bush in an apparent bid to give a political push to negotiations stuck due to differences over some issues.

They "spoke about the forthcoming discussions between the National Security Advisers of both countries", Prime Minister's media advisor Sanjaya Baru said.

National Security Adviser M K Narayanan will hold talks with his US counterpart Stephen Hadley in Washington on July 16 to break the logjam on the negotiations for the 123 agreement, the operational pact for the civil nuclear deal.

The negotiations have failed to yield any breakthrough due to differences on issues like reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel and India's right to conduct a nuclear test in the future.

In view of the persisting differences, negotiators of the two sides have said a political push would be required to break the logjam.

During the telephonic conversation, Singh and Bush said they looked forward to "continuing their own discussions at their next meeting", which is expected in September when the Prime Minister travels to the US for the UN General Assembly session.

Singh and Bush were of the view that "these discussions (between the NSAs) will reinforce our strong bilateral relations", Baru said.

Singh recently said that two or three issues remained to be resolved to finalise the 123 agreement and expressed confidence that the deal would be concluded soon.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice also expressed hope recently that the deal would come through by the year-end.

Rice is likely to visit India for discussions on the issue but officials here said this would depend on the outcome of the talks between the NSAs.

Singh and Bush, who met last month in Germany on the sidelines of the G-8 Summit, discussed bilateral relations during their telephonic talk.

"The two expressed satisfaction at the strong India-US bilateral relationship," Baru said.

The telephonic conversation was a sequel to the decision made by the two leaders during their meeting on the margins of the G-8 Summit to have regular contacts.

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Postby Gerard » 12 Jul 2007 00:38

jmaxwell wrote: India has 16 reactors but produces only 3557 MW whereas Brazil has only 2 reactors but produces 1901 MW. What gives?


Reactor design.
LWRs have larger power outputs for the same core size than PHWRs and for many years India concentrated on smaller 220 MWe clones of the original CANDU PHWR design it acquired from Canada. (Canada's AECL subsequently developed 700 MWe and 900 MWe units). Only in the last decade have 540 MWe and now 700 MWe units been built by India. The Canadian ACR (Advanced CANDU) design is now up to 1200 MWe.
By comparison, the VVER LWR units being built at Kudankulam (which will be the largest reactors in India) are 1000 MWe units.

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Postby bala » 12 Jul 2007 00:43

Besides capacity of the PHWR there is a problem with Uranium supply in India. Indian reservers of Uranium are not much and that is why we have the US-India Nuke deal in process. Thorium reactors are supposed to alleviate this condition but a certain amount of uranium needs to be fed in first.

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Postby Gerard » 12 Jul 2007 01:16


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Postby Mort Walker » 12 Jul 2007 01:39

Gerard,

On the Orissa power station, is that 6000 MW thermal or electric? If electric, then Rs. 36,000 crore is about $9 billion for 6000 MWe.

Manu
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Postby Manu » 12 Jul 2007 01:58

Philip wrote:Obviously he was talking from experience!


That was Chowdhary Devi Lal, no doubt?


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