India - Nuclear News and Discussion

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36400
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

India - Nuclear News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Jul 2007 21:00

All thru the time since j18, nothing was conclusive.. and of course India was continuously giving up his stance, and as such the equations fails on binomial test.

We still hear US not agreeing to this and that.. while India giving up on many aspects. Its time we pause and the dealing team take a break.. and chalk out better strategies.

What the dealers don't have experience is that using a trump card or anything that US wants us to relinquish and we all agree to, must be used against obtained a reciprocal step that is 10 times better in psych and on equal terms to the deal.

We gave up on separation plan, we got nothing in return. We gave up on many installations into civilian zone, none except a smile. We gave up on IAEA inspection, they want more. We want reprocessing, they wont give. we have a failed team already.. no reciprocal approach seen.

vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Postby vsudhir » 19 Jul 2007 21:12

What the dealers don't have experience is that using a trump card or anything that US wants us to relinquish and we all agree to, must be used against obtained a reciprocal step that is 10 times better in psych and on equal terms to the deal.

We gave up on separation plan, we got nothing in return. We gave up on many installations into civilian zone, none except a smile. We gave up on IAEA inspection, they want more. We want reprocessing, they wont give. we have a failed team already.. no reciprocal approach seen.


And instead we had the yanks throwing tantrums, calling Delhi 'greedy', 'tough negotiaters' and other such encomiums.

Each time the yanks open their mouths and the chinis close theirs, there's lessons galore in int'l diplomatese for GOI to learn.

pradeepe
BRFite
Posts: 741
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 20:46
Location: Our culture is different and we cannot live together - who said that?

Postby pradeepe » 19 Jul 2007 21:54

SaiK wrote:We gave up on separation plan, we got nothing in return. We gave up on many installations into civilian zone, none except a smile. We gave up on IAEA inspection, they want more. We want reprocessing, they wont give. we have a failed team already.. no reciprocal approach seen.


Cost to get to the high table I presume. Thats fair. As long as it does not involve signing away the testimonials - Unkil loves collecting them, he has never failed and has a trophy case full of 'em. Unfortunately unkil needs this set badly, cause he cant allow this li'l one spraying all over the place. Heaven forbid if the scent tickles the Panda or the Bear.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7944
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Postby Mort Walker » 19 Jul 2007 21:58

If deal fails, as expected, what is the possible fallout? Unkil is quite capable of making life miserable and its like getting into a deal with the devil.

1. No MMRCA contract for 126 Boeing F/A-18 Superhornets.
2. The review of the IA helo deal goes in favor of Eurocopter.
3. There is not much left for the so-called Indo-US bonhomie. More nitpicking on trade issues.
4. TSP gets to heat up the valley, again.
5-10. ???

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2007 22:16

nkumar wrote:India, US marathon N-deal talks inconclusive

But, at the end of the day, belying expectations of a possible announcement that the 123 agreement had been wrapped up, both sides were still stuck on the reprocessing issue with the US, while impressed with India's proposal of a dedicated facility under full-time safeguards to reprocess American nuclear fuel supplies, unwilling to agree to India's insistence that it could not allow for international supervision..


Does it mean that the other issues of testing and guaranteed supply of N-fuel have been solved?


Boss, just goes to prove what the US values more over other red herrings. Their value priority is lower for Indian future N test, guaranteed N fuel supply etc etc .... The crown jewel they are stuck in the negotiation is what I have highlighted in red.

Now what does that red highlight mean?
    In the 3 stage fuel cycle, the most valuable technology is the 3'rd stage; the 3rd stage pivots on reprocessing the hard Gamma-ray active spent fuel that is the most difficult engineering challenge (truly multidisciplinary technology that spans chemistry, nucleonics, electronics, robotics, mechanics and systems engineering). This is the technology most valuable for India to protect and for US (and NSG boondogs) most valuable to reverse engineer. Recall that in this game Patent is useless because patent protection is only applicable for very short time (20 years), this kind of tech is a cash cow that can be milked for 500 years. India thus wants to keep this trade secret instead of seeking short term patent protection

    From global energy perspective Oil exploration pivoted on natural resource exploitation (mining) & did not entail IP. The successor to Oil energy is this very cheap energy (while generating minuscule radioactive waste compare to other nuclear technologies) from Thorium based nuclear fuel cycle is a diamond mine in Indian hand not to be fretted away for cheap tinkers.

    J18 Civil Nuclear cooperation is interesting/valuable for Indian civil nuclear program (specially in light of high oil prices that are here to stay and accentuate further) because it allows India strategic energy security to jump start and built many 3rd stage AHWR power reactors by buying nuclear fuel and plaughing it onto India specific fuel cycle, without waiting for bootstrapped Plutonium flow from Indian 2'nd stage FBR (Fast Breeder Reactors).

    If NonProliferation Ayothullah's in US congress are concerned about imported nuclear fuel proliferating into Indian military reprocessing plants, then India has called its bluff by offering to build separate reprocessing facility for imported fuel and eat its cost. But hay India will not allow international inspection or supervision of its civil reprocessing facility to keep its Thorium reactor reprocessing trade-secret as crown jewel similar to trade secret of "Coke" kept a trade secret for 121 years by Coca Cola Co.

Alas I miss Alok in all this critical national interest debate which is lifeless in domain knowledge and analysis. Am I alone or do I hear any vote call to bring him back from permanent exile (awarded in heat of Evanjihadi/Religion thread discussion era)?

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7944
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Postby Mort Walker » 19 Jul 2007 22:45

Alas I miss Alok in all this critical national interest debate which is lifeless in domain knowledge and analysis. Am I alone or do I hear any vote call to bring him back from permanent exile (awarded in heat of Evanjihadi/Religion thread discussion era)?


IIRC, it was the admins that banned him and even banned the IP address he used to access BRF. Perhaps all of the admins can vote on it. None of us peons have a say. Check with your colleague Jagan about the matter.

IMHO, every admin has unjustly banned people in the heat of the moment with the exception of Shiv and JEM.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 19 Jul 2007 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Postby NRao » 19 Jul 2007 22:46

Wash Post :: July 19, 2007 :: U.S., India said still divided on nuclear deal

Looks like the NPAs are bringing the J18 down:

By Carol Giacomo and Paul Eckert
Reuters
Thursday, July 19, 2007; 12:54 PM



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States and India remain divided over a controversial nuclear cooperation agreement despite three days of talks to finally close the deal, a U.S. official said on Thursday.

"There's good will (between the two sides), we've made progress and we're very hopeful that we can hammer out the remaining differences in the coming days and weeks," State Department deputy spokesman Tom Casey said.

The two sides have been stalemated for months over the landmark deal that would give India access to U.S. nuclear fuel and reactors for the first time in 30 years.

President George W. Bush, who considers the deal a major foreign policy success, has only 18 months left in office and experts say he is running out of time to get the agreement approved and implemented before a successor comes to power.

Any deal must be approved by the U.S. Congress. Support there for rapidly improving U.S.-India ties is strong, but patience with what many see as India's unreasonable nuclear demands is waning. {Strong only when it favors the US}

U.S. and Indian negotiators met on Thursday for a third and final day of talks, but Casey told reporters: "I wasn't given the impression that you should look for an announcement today or some kind of definitive conclusion."

On Wednesday as part of what was supposed to be a final push to the finish line, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice met with Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon, and National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley met Indian National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan.

Obstacles have included a U.S. congressional mandate that Washington halt nuclear cooperation if India tests a nuclear weapon as it did in 1998.

Other disputed points have been the U.S. refusal to give India prior approval to allow reprocessing of spent fuel with U.S. components and to assure permanent fuel supplies. U.S. law prohibits such assistance to countries such as India which are not formally recognized as nuclear powers.

The U.S. Congress last December passed the Hyde Act which created a unique exception to U.S. export law to allow nuclear cooperation with India, even though the country has nuclear weapons and has not signed the nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. { So true. The exception was to strangle India}

The current negotiations concern a separate agreement spelling out technical details of U.S.-India nuclear cooperation.

© 2007 Reuters

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Postby NRao » 19 Jul 2007 22:50

Image

Rediff :: July 19, 2007 :: NSA Narayanan, Condi Rice in N-deal talks

AK is gaining weight a bit too fast.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] said the deal was in its final leg.

The man who is dubbed "the 600-pound gorilla in the room", Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar, was in the United States to iron out differences.

Even US Secretary of State Condolezza Rice dropped in to assure the Bush Administration's commitment to finalise the deal.

But despite both sides giving it their all, the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal could not be sealed.

Now, they have scheduled another eound of talks for Thursday.

On Wednesday, both sides, led by Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns and Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon, met for several hours.

National Security Adviser M K Narayanan, who is leading the Indian delegation, then went over to the White House to meet with his counterpart Stephen Hadley for one-on-one talks and was then joined for a working luncheon by Menon and Burns. This was even followed by another post-lunch session that went on till late afternoon.

But, at the end of the day, both sides were still stuck on the reprocessing issue with the US, while impressed with India's proposal of a dedicated facility under full-time safeguards to reprocess American nuclear fuel supplies, unwilling to agree to India's insistence that it could not allow for international supervision.

Though the Indian team believed it was addressing Congressional concerns regarding diversion of reprocessed US nuclear fuel to a military facility, the US side, while acknowledging the merits of the proposal, had argued for permission for international supervision.

The Indian side simply couldn't agree to this because Kakodkar will have shot down such a concession in a heartbeat because of the Indian scientific establishment zealous protection of its turf and complete opposition to any international monitoring of India's nuclear facilities.

But administration sources told rediff.com that while the proposal necessarily addresses Congress' concerns, India's insistence that no way would it allow for international supervision wouldn't fly with Congress.

But diplomatic sources reiterated their argument that this would not fly with the likes of Kakodkar and the nuclear establishment in India and would be tantamount to lending credence to those opposed to the nuclear deal who would declare that India had 'surrendered' to the US on the reprocessing issue that was not part of the July 2005 Joint Statement and March 2006 separation plan.

So, as one administration source told rediff.com after both sides had adjourned on Wednesday, "it's a case of so near but yet so far, because no way is Congress going to go for anything short of some kind of international supervision whether by the IAEA or a team of monitors from the NSG (Nuclear Suppliers Group) or something similar."

Text Aziz Haniffa | Photograph: Jay Mandal

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36400
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 19 Jul 2007 22:57

Arun_S wrote:Alas I miss Alok ..?

I was asking in nukkad thread, if "Tanaji" avatar was Alok_N. He did not respond. He signs as "Allakh Niranjan".. I could be wrong though. Only admins may know.. from IP etc.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2007 22:59

Mort Walker wrote:
Alas I miss Alok in all this critical national interest debate which is lifeless in domain knowledge and analysis. Am I alone or do I hear any vote call to bring him back from permanent exile (awarded in heat of Evanjihadi/Religion thread discussion era)?


IIRC, it was the admins that banned him and even banned the IP address he used to access BRF. Perhaps all of the admins can vote on it. None of us peons have a say.....


Just a reminder, BR Forum exist because of wise peons(sic) and measly BR Forum Admins are their servants. Do not discount the power of customers. Customers are always right.

This nuclear negotiations is a national issue is of critical importance, everything else is petty.
Last edited by Arun_S on 19 Jul 2007 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Postby NRao » 19 Jul 2007 23:02

So, as one administration source told rediff.com after both sides had adjourned on Wednesday, "it's a case of so near but yet so far, because no way is Congress going to go for anything short of some kind of international supervision whether by the IAEA or a team of monitors from the NSG (Nuclear Suppliers Group) or something similar."


The US seems to have got a sign-off from all major countries on this. So, I suspect even the SA - Brazil deal is just a gimmick from their side. Just like the Russians.

India is on her own.

Who in India in their right mind would have agreed to this on J18? And, for the US to even think is rather insulting.

Like I said before, these past few days have been a total waste. The US has not budged at all.

I wonder what value did the US state Dept and WH spokesman have, when they say that things are getting closer - when in actuality they are not. Same goes for MMS.

ShibaPJ
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 21:21

Postby ShibaPJ » 19 Jul 2007 23:02

I third Arun_S & Mort. Bradmins should get together & resolve the issue to get Alok (& if possible, GJ Man) back.. Their presence has been missing so sorely!!!

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Postby NRao » 19 Jul 2007 23:04

But Alok also should want to "come back". Did you check with him?

Same goes for GJMan.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2007 23:08

SaiK wrote:
Arun_S wrote:Alas I miss Alok ..?

I was asking in nukkad thread, if "Tanaji" avatar was Alok_N. He did not respond. He signs as "Allakh Niranjan".. I could be wrong though. Only admins may know.. from IP etc.

I do not believe the honorable Alok_N will comeback under guise, except his original moniker. On earlier occasions he refused to take this unprincipled / cowardly path of resurfacing using another pseudonym.

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 19 Jul 2007 23:12

The Chai-Biskoot, Frequent Flyer Miles Bill is quickly adding up. Now the single most important issue is the reprocessing oversight and US Congress balking at giving into Indian demands. Meanwhile the US has managed to create a boogie man in DAE's Anil Kakodkar by dubbing him the 600-lb gorilla while India gets battered by the 800-lb gorilla (US), whilst the US Congress is the 700-lb gorilla ably fed by the NPT Ayatollahs.

ShibaPJ
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 21:21

Postby ShibaPJ » 19 Jul 2007 23:12

NRao wrote:But Alok also should want to "come back". Did you check with him?

Same goes for GJMan.

You mean, they don't miss the love and affection of all BRfites? :twisted: What blasphemy is this?

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 19 Jul 2007 23:23

NRao wrote:But Alok also should want to "come back". Did you check with him?

From what I know of Alok he will be back if there is a crack in the door of permanent ban.

But to put the things in correct perspective BR-Forum needs Him in their team to bat for India, thus BR Forum needs to take the initiative to open the door.

In Hindi there is a phrase "Jiski Garaj hai soo kadam badhai" loose translation, "One whose chestnut is on fire, makes the move"

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36400
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 19 Jul 2007 23:30

Actually mentioning about gorilla itself a psy-op to divert from the agenda and try to focus on the agenda set by unkil men. It is important to ignore these gorilla tact-kicks.

If unkil agrees to word separation, is in itself a good trump, that we did not muster in much with it, meaning we could have gotten them to close any subject that deals with installations at all. Once separated, it is under IAEA inspection regime within the perspective of separation wall.

I guess, the issue here is Unkill asking for international inspection on the other side of the wall for proliferation concerns.. If this is true, why would India agree to such a plan. DDM to its genuine gullible state just writes without thinking.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36400
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 19 Jul 2007 23:34

May be send him an email and drop him a Hi!.. wish him to see here.. hope that helps.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Postby Satya_anveshi » 20 Jul 2007 00:02

But what about the ideology of BR to allow muslim/islam bashing but not evanjihadis because a couple admins belong to that religion and few others sympathize with them? Do you think BR could be so many threads bashing Islam/muslims if one of you articulate admins was a muslim. Either ban all religion discussion (as it was before) or allow everything. If it makes few happy...create a hindu bashing thread.


I know this is a forum owned by few individuals, whose writ rules but seems fair to me?
Last edited by Satya_anveshi on 20 Jul 2007 00:13, edited 2 times in total.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Postby NRao » 20 Jul 2007 00:02

Is there a technical reason for India NOT to export her thorium based reactors (I am not looking for any political related issues)?

WRT Alok_N, he may come back but certainly felt he was spending too much time here on BR. Also, much has happened since he "left" - he is not as much up-to-speed on matters.

GJMan lurks and is happy. He has other, more pressing, personal matters to pay attention to.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36400
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 20 Jul 2007 00:36

He wanted to continue on his favorite physics subject exploring vedanta and the concepts of shunya.. but finally that thread got so much attention due to heat generated by certain catalystical posts.

he even tried india-form and left his signature there.. only 2 total posts to his credit and he disappeared somewhere else.

Alok Niranjan wrote:as for my take on Dhimmis, I can't read what followed because my IP has been blocked ... it is no big loss ....as for my take on Dhimmis, I can't read what followed because my IP has been blocked ... it is no big loss . me another refugee who has shaheedized himself on BRF ...ill take some time to familiarize myself with the new digs ... nothing to post yet, but will jump in when the handle presents itself ...


1. it could be that he is theorizing on something with Valkan. Call valkan to know more. I don't think he is off the cuff w.r.t this thread.

2. unblock his IP.

3. send him an email.

do all the above, only if you guys wish him here.

ShibaPJ
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 21:21

Postby ShibaPJ » 20 Jul 2007 00:55

Really good news, if Chenney can help sway the deal. But why would he spend his political capital here rather than ME issues is the mn $ Q here.

Cheney comes to the rescue of Indo-US N-deal

Aziz Haniffa in Washington, DC | July 20, 2007 00:30 IST

After more than two-and-a-half days of intense negotiations between US and Indian negotiators to seal the 123 Agreement -- including the imprimatur of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who joined the talks for a short while on Tuesday -- failed to produce a breakthrough, National Security Adviser M K Narayanan's meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney on Thursday afternoon is expected to break the impasse.

Narayanan will be accompanied for the meeting with Cheney by Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon -- who has since Thursday morning been having another round of negotiation with Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns, the chief US interlocutor of the deal -- and Ambassador Ronen Sen.

Sources told rediff.com that Cheney's endorsement of the Agreement -- which has been bogged down by the reprocessing issue -- most likely on India's terms, that is, where the US will acquiesce to New Delhi's proposal of a dedicated facility under full-time safeguards to reprocess American nuclear fuel but sans international supervision as Washington negotiators over the past couple of days had been pushing for, would help to unlock the logjam and help to move the US-India civilian nuclear deal to the next phase.

The Administration negotiators have thus far refused to go along with India's proposal on the dedicated facility because it's unlikely that the Congress would go along with any agreement that is not under international supervision vis-�-vis the reprocessing of US fuel to India because of a paranoia that this fuel could be diverted for military purposes and to expand India's nuclear weapons arsenal.

India, however, argues that its impeccable nonproliferation track record should be enough to convince lawmakers otherwise.

But according to sources, Cheney's endorsement of the proposal would then shift the onus on to the US business and industry and the Indian American community to lobby the Congress -- as they did last year with the enabling legislation to get it overwhelming approved by the Senate and House -- to get the deal through even though the reprocessing provision contained in the Hyde Act would not have the international supervision clause in the 123 Agreement.

Atomic Energy Commission chairman Anil Kakodkar and the scientific establishment have made clear that they would shoot down any concession to the US on the reprocessing issue if negotiators agree to international supervision.

Although Cheney has not been part of the engagement in terms of talks on the nuclear deal, and Narayanan's meetings on Wednesday were with his counterpart in the White House Stephen Hadley, sources noted that Cheney is well aware of the importance of the deal being consummated.

He had been kept apprised of the state of play in the past few month by his own National Security Adviser John Hannah, who has been meeting with senior Indian officials and being informed of India's concerns over issues of reprocessing and testing.

These sources said that it must also not be forgotten of the case Cheney made in support of the deal last June in his keynote address to the US-India Business Council.

During his remarks at the time, Cheney said, "A strategic partnership in the 21st century also requires a new and realistic approach to nuclear energy. For decades -- that issue, there was no cooperation at all between the US and India. India had developed nuclear power as a non-signatory to the Nonproliferation Treaty and we never departed from the basic stance we took during the Cold War."

But he argued that now the Bush Administration 'believes it's time to update our policy and to bring it into line with modern realities. And that is the primary purpose of the civil nuclear initiative that President Bush and Prime Minister Singh agreed to several months ago'.

In that speech, Cheney acknowledged that 'India has a very good nonproliferation track record', and argued that 'India has no interest in the spread of this deadly technology. By taking additional steps to secure its nuclear materials and technology, India continues to build upon this track record'.

And, in a significant assertion, Cheney is that speech, declared, "Given the agreement's strategic important, we must be sure that amendments or delays on the US side do not risk wasting this critical opportunity."

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3778
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Postby hnair » 20 Jul 2007 00:56

NRao wrote:WRT Alok_N, he may come back but certainly felt he was spending too much time here on BR. Also, much has happened since he "left" - he is not as much up-to-speed on matters.

GJMan lurks and is happy. He has other, more pressing, personal matters to pay attention to.


I had put in a prayer for Alok-saar in the admin feedback thread and saw Shivji's response. But continued blocking of his IP etc is the equivalent of doing a full-cavity search on an 80 year old Marge who fought in WWII but letting all the al Sauds/Pakis in through diplomatic channels. Anyways, if the "daily bots" can inform us about some Hollywood starlet's latest videos, why is BRF still blocking Alok_N's address?

GJ lurks? Well, he better be in a comma, for I saw some bright fella spouting about how GJ's beloved "MKIs are inferior, 'cause they were not used in Kargil" etc :shock:

Rye
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 05 Aug 2001 11:31

Postby Rye » 20 Jul 2007 00:59

ShibaPJ wrote:

Really good news, if Chenney can help sway the deal. But why would he spend his political capital here rather than ME issues is the mn $ Q here.

Cheney comes to the rescue of Indo-US N-deal


Not so sure about that. Cheney is the only one baying for Iran's blood -- Iran is very high priority for Cheney. His support for this deal should factor in his priorities, which are different from that of the rest of the US govt.

OTOH, if he can roll back all the nastiness in the Hyde act (fat chance of that), then maybe India can offer a quid-pro-quo of sorts.

ShibaPJ
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 21:21

Postby ShibaPJ » 20 Jul 2007 01:12

From history we know that Cheney doesn't get involved, unless it is a very high stakes game. One quid-pro-quo would be MRCA pie as well as reactors.. But would he take on the bloodhounds (oops, NPAs) in the process? Aren't they the pet dogs of the old school types & war mongers, whose cause Cheney espouses so much?

Or maybe, this is a fervent wish of the DDM :roll:

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Postby NRao » 20 Jul 2007 01:21

Cheney is not saying he will push it through. All he is saying is that he will jump on the bandwagon IF US companies and NRIs push it through. He will not spend any political capital (he has none left).

The US has clearly painted itself in a corner by calling this deal a corner-stone of Indo-US partnership. It is best that both side behave as though nothing happened.

There is a dire need to strand NPAs for sure. An international effort. I would push for what Pranabda has been doing - IN-SA_BZ, and make him the PM while we are on the subject matter.

Rye
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 05 Aug 2001 11:31

Postby Rye » 20 Jul 2007 01:26

Cheney seems to be still insisting on the neo-con agenda (as outlined in Perle's Defence Policy Guidance paper from 1991, which recommends taking out Iran), but the rest of the GOTUS (US SD) is not buying that line anymore because, as you say, Cheney has no political capital.

bala
BRFite
Posts: 639
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Postby bala » 20 Jul 2007 01:31

I hope Cheney is convinced of the US India Nuke Deal and does not want China or others in arrogant mood if it fails. A Republican once remarked to me that Cheney is the behind the scenes person who knows what is happening in the administration and he always appears at the last moment to clear up things.

BTW Cheney's former employer Halliburton has Indian Vik Rao in this position:

Vik Rao is vice president, Technology Ventures, for the Energy Services Group. The Ventures group is charged with taking the lead on acquisition and divestiture of technology-based assets. It is also responsible for optimizing the intersections between intellectual property considerations and business strategies and tactics. Rao holds a bachelor's degree in engineering from the Indian Institute of Technology, Madras, India, and a master's degree and a PhD in engineering from Stanford University.He is the author of more than 20 publications and has been awarded over a dozen patents.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Postby svinayak » 20 Jul 2007 01:39

Rye wrote:ShibaPJ wrote:

Really good news, if Chenney can help sway the deal. But why would he spend his political capital here rather than ME issues is the mn $ Q here.

Cheney comes to the rescue of Indo-US N-deal


Not so sure about that. Cheney is the only one baying for Iran's blood -- Iran is very high priority for Cheney. His support for this deal should factor in his priorities, which are different from that of the rest of the US govt.

OTOH, if he can roll back all the nastiness in the Hyde act (fat chance of that), then maybe India can offer a quid-pro-quo of sorts.


ShibaPJ wrote:From history we know that Cheney doesn't get involved, unless it is a very high stakes game. One quid-pro-quo would be MRCA pie as well as reactors.. But would he take on the bloodhounds (oops, NPAs) in the process? Aren't they the pet dogs of the old school types & war mongers, whose cause Cheney espouses so much?

Or maybe, this is a fervent wish of the DDM :roll:

Partnership & alignment is good & dandy; but how is Indian concerns being taken care of?


THis deal is actually a geopolitical alignment and hence Cheney is in to make sure that it proceeds.
Read the article by Robert Kaplan. The world is in a flux and new alignment will take place after the concerns of the major countries are taken care of.

India's concern has to be put forward by India forcefully since it is about India's energy and security. J18 and nagotiation should have taken care of. Somewhere Indian negotiators did not do their job until late.
Last edited by svinayak on 20 Jul 2007 01:45, edited 1 time in total.

ShibaPJ
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 21:21

Postby ShibaPJ » 20 Jul 2007 01:43

THis deal is actually a geopolitical alignment and hence Cheney is in to make sure that it proceeds.

Read the article by Robert Kaplan. The world is in a flux and new alignment will take place after the concerns of the major countries are taken care of.

Partnership & alignment is good & dandy; but how are Indian concerns being taken care of?

vsudhir
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2173
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 03:44
Location: Dark side of the moon

Postby vsudhir » 20 Jul 2007 01:49

ShibaPJ wrote:
THis deal is actually a geopolitical alignment and hence Cheney is in to make sure that it proceeds.

Read the article by Robert Kaplan. The world is in a flux and new alignment will take place after the concerns of the major countries are taken care of.

Partnership & alignment is good & dandy; but how are Indian concerns being taken care of?


True.

As Arun_S points out in the prev page, the stakes here are beri beri high indeed.

We're not talking small peanuts here. India staying out of the GNEP tent automatically constrains the entire future profit stream to be had by a new energy cartel.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Postby svinayak » 20 Jul 2007 01:53

Acharya wrote:
Rye wrote:ShibaPJ wrote:

Really good news, if Chenney can help sway the deal. But why would he spend his political capital here rather than ME issues is the mn $ Q here.Cheney comes to the rescue of Indo-US N-deal

Iran is very high priority for Cheney. His support for this deal should factor in his priorities, which are different from that of the rest of the US govt.


ShibaPJ wrote:From history we know that Cheney doesn't get involved, unless it is a very high stakes game. One quid-pro-quo would be MRCA pie as well as reactors.. But would he take on the bloodhounds (oops, NPAs) in the process?
Partnership & alignment is good & dandy; but how is Indian concerns being taken care of?



THis deal is actually a geopolitical alignment and hence Cheney is in to make sure that it proceeds.
Read the article by Robert Kaplan. The world is in a flux and new alignment will take place after the concerns of the major countries are taken care of.

India's concern has to be put forward by India forcefully since it is about India's energy and security. J18 and nagotiation should have taken care of this. Somewhere Indian negotiators did not do their job until late.

ShibaPJ
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 21:21

Postby ShibaPJ » 20 Jul 2007 02:06

We're not talking small peanuts here. India staying out of the GNEP tent automatically constrains the entire future profit stream to be had by a new energy cartel.

GNEP is based on the premise of once-thru processing for the client states and Unkil is trying to rope in Russia (and ultimately P5) to complete the loop. India with it's Th-based programe presents the most latent threat to this cartel.

Arun_S,
As usual, very high quality stuff, you hit it right on the nail. I have some basic, layman Qs. Can you please clarify?

1. How do you process commercial grade N-fuel directly in AHWR? I thought, that would go to the 1st stage PHWRs etc; the output of FBRs would be reprocessed and the cleaned fuel then would go to AHWR.

2. AHWRs would be civ reactors and under IAEA safeguards. How do you stop international supervision/ spying in that case? or Is US asking for supervision on how FBR o/p is reprocessed?

Acharyaji,
Fully agree on the Indian negotiators screwing up part. What I am trying to understand is how does US propose addressing Indian concerns?
Last edited by ShibaPJ on 20 Jul 2007 02:11, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Postby ramana » 20 Jul 2007 02:10

In the Foundation series of books the game is about Pu reactors for electrical power in the galaxy that gives the Foundation its power. Are we seeing Cheney in Hari Sheldon's role?

vnadendla
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 00:40
Location: USA

Postby vnadendla » 20 Jul 2007 02:14

NRao wrote:Is there a technical reason for India NOT to export her thorium based reactors (I am not looking for any political related issues)?

WRT Alok_N, he may come back but certainly felt he was spending too much time here on BR. Also, much has happened since he "left" - he is not as much up-to-speed on matters.

GJMan lurks and is happy. He has other, more pressing, personal matters to pay attention to.

Do we have manpower to substain that.
Why shouldn't we save our fuel for our children rather than export

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36400
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Postby SaiK » 20 Jul 2007 02:15

Politickally speaking,

1. India can't sign up for some whimsical policies of the west to wage war at will. e.g Iran.

2. India can't be subdued its due share of this even expanding oil industry.. cheyney getting in could be in the view, to reduce India oil dependence so that oil prices don't drastically go out of control for cheyney corpn $$$.

3. India can't be considered as a partner in alliance with the super cop. This will not work in all Indian eyes after years of striving to keep ahead in time.

4. Indian policies can't mark the "Winner logic" to western powers.. Unkil can't chart victory or loss for us. We have to chart it on our own.

5. Unkill can't control what it means by inspection. We are not Iran or Pakistan. We have norms.. and we have a society that we are answerable to.

6. Our decisions can't be done by a matching veto-ing regime. Time and again MMS needs this to be informed(unfortunately) by gorilla gang.

7. We are not going to miss anything by epic proportion by signing the deal.. may be true for unkil. check nuke power output, and the planned requirements that can be met with totally indigenous efforts.

8. Bushmen are not able to hide under hyde.

9. MMS don't speak normal on strategic initiatives.

10. Both India and US needs to live to public discussions and see how this can be carried on.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Postby Satya_anveshi » 20 Jul 2007 02:17

Not sure if this was posted...

[url=http://www.asianage.com/presentation/leftnavigation/news/top-story/n-waste-dumping-feared.aspx]N-WASTE DUMPING FEARED by Seema Mustafa
[/url]


Dr Gopalakrishnan said it would be "demeaning" for India to accept this proposal, arising from a "deep mistrust that India will otherwise divert part of the reprocessed plutonium for military uses." He pointed out that such a proposal will kill the indigenous fast breeder programme and will "lead to such a multilaterally-controlled plant on Indian soil being increasingly used to reprocess the spent fuel of other nations too in due course." Most Western countries do not wish to reprocess spent fuel in their backyards, but would rather ship it out to the Indian plant to be reprocessed, and the plutonium shipped back to them. All the burden of handling and disposing of the large quantities of hazardous radioactive wastes of other nations will also fall on India."

Expressing similar fears, Dr Gopalakrishnan said: "Our government may explain it (the facility) as ‘growth’ of international nuclear cooperation and good business, but in effect we will be offering a dumping ground for other nations’ dangerous wastes and providing high-quality experienced Indian technical manpower cheaply to them." He said that such a plant operated by others and jointly managed on Indian soil was a "disgrace" and should not be allowed.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 20 Jul 2007 02:20

Satya_anveshi wrote:But what about the ideology of BR to allow muslim/islam bashing but not evanjihadis because a couple admins belong to that religion and few others sympathize with them? Do you think BR could be so many threads bashing Islam/muslims if one of you articulate admins was a muslim. Either ban all religion discussion (as it was before) or allow everything. If it makes few happy...create a hindu bashing thread.


I know this is a forum owned by few individuals, whose writ rules but seems fair to me?


Most will agree that Nuclear Deal discussion will gain immensly from Alok_N's participation thus reasonable to discuss on this thread.

Pls stick to the thread topic. Other things can be discussed elsewhere. And pls do not ask loaded question to imply that Alok started/launched Islamism or EvanJihadi discussion.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6740
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Postby Amber G. » 20 Jul 2007 02:23

Is there a technical reason for India NOT to export her thorium based reactors (I am not looking for any political related issues)?

FWIW: IMO obvious answer is where to? Most (virtually all) reactors are not based on Thorium, and unlike India, there aren't too many places where there is plenty of Thorium (and not enough available/cheaper Uranium).

As for Alok_N, I certainly miss him.


Return to “Nuclear Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests