Indian Nuclear News & Discussion - 22 Jul 2007

Rahul Shukla
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Postby Rahul Shukla » 24 Jul 2007 02:02

enqyoob wrote:For all those who sneer at the bus driver as source, remember that it was the barber shop outside Kahuta that provided final, irrefutable confirmation of the nook-nood reality... There hadn't been any fissile material inside Kahuta in more than 6 months.

N^3 saa'r,

Bad karma made me miss out on the info. Can you, or other relatives of the chaiwala where the barber goes to have tea in the afternoon please refresh the lost gyan for this forever ignorant kafir.

Much appreciated.

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Postby pradeepe » 24 Jul 2007 02:12

remember that it was the barber shop outside Kahuta that provided final, irrefutable confirmation of the nook-nood reality


Barber shop in the land of the pure and tauba tauba...noodity too. Where is the kendostix brigade (peace be upon them).

On a somber note...
We know the kendo stix warriors are in the pak army clutches. May their lord whoever it is have mercy and take them soon...and save them from the pakistani army's version of bravery...

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Postby SaiK » 24 Jul 2007 02:31

maybe that was a haram barber .. and it was not halal hair cuttings...

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Postby Ananth » 24 Jul 2007 02:33

SaiK wrote:maybe that was a haram barber .. and it was not halal hair cuttings...


What the heck is that, Hair is half cut and left, to be cut again??

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Postby bala » 24 Jul 2007 02:39

Government begins selling nuclear deal

Dr. Singh also communicated the broad outlines of the “breakthroughâ€

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Postby Arun_S » 24 Jul 2007 03:01

Shankar wrote:1) the computer technology is now advanced enough ro predict how a new weapon design will work even without actually testing (95% proof)


What do you mean by 95% proof?
& what methodology is used to arrive at that number? Does the IA Corp of Engineers undertsand and agree with that methodology?

Math and computer design does not mean anything, if the end-use armed forces do not buy in to their understanding of verifyable physics. That is the problem that is sought to be solved by next round of laughing Buddha. Pending which Armed forces will only belive in what was tested in Smiling Buddha and simple re-configuration there of. That itself can deliver desired yield, but that could be sub-optimal in terms of weight and/or volume. This sub-optimal spread could exact its cost in missile range/MIRV options.

123 will freez Indian capabelity to Pok-II; thus any weight reducing gig or change in primary or secondary fuel/confign can just stay as recessed option and not mainstay weapons in hand.

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Postby Arun_S » 24 Jul 2007 03:24

Rahul Shukla wrote:
enqyoob wrote:For all those who sneer at the bus driver as source, remember that it was the barber shop outside Kahuta that provided final, irrefutable confirmation of the nook-nood reality... There hadn't been any fissile material inside Kahuta in more than 6 months.

N^3 saa'r,

Bad karma made me miss out on the info. Can you, or other relatives of the chaiwala where the barber goes to have tea in the afternoon please refresh the lost gyan for this forever ignorant kafir.

Much appreciated.

enqyoob sir, IIRC the orginal hajjam who provided the hair sample was kidnapped and killed by ISI, and all faithfulls were told to live by Islamic treadtions. The result is that all Kahuta staff looks like unshaven dirty beaded Taliban, save the hair below the nostrils. Its a self fullfilling prophasy of "Taliban outside and Taliban inside" at Kahuta.

But now the evil Yindu kafirs have 1000 small dustbins to collect the hair sample, and have put to use services of the dhobi too to collect other body parts hair. Just wait for ISI directive prohibiting the Kahuta faithfuls to stop washing their bodies and cloths. Soon enough Kahuta Taliban will be become super-malechh taliban :lol: :twisted:

I hear bordering Kahuta there is Islamic tribe that catches rats ... ...

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Postby John Snow » 24 Jul 2007 04:38

so this J18 , 123 is like Lords test, we squeeked past.... to a draw

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Postby kgoan » 24 Jul 2007 05:28

Folks:

At the current moment, this deal appears to be the finest strategic victory of our establishment in a generation.

What we've managed to do is simply unbelievable.

BR owes an open apology to Bhishma (well I do anyway!) and possible others whom we've smacked around without cause** - but not the politicians, taking abuse is part of their job description.

**Well, we know NOW that it was without cause. But we didn't know then. And frankly while I'm happy to apologise, some of these folks ought to understand that their ante-deluvian public relations methodologies is going to keep on giving them grief. The attitude that the public doesn't need to know things and that they'll "look after things" is garbage.

Still - Mea culp, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. :8

Ramana: Will send you an email over the next 48 hours.

N: Seriously dude, who woulda thunk we could sell 'em the golden gate bridge? :rotfl!

Downside: Yeah there is one. If there are no more trip ups and this goes ahead, we're now in a de facto "alliance" with the US.

Our US bride may well be a cheating, nagging, shrill. We don't know, its early days yet. But we managed to get an unbelievable dowry. Simply unbelievable.

And if we have to send the bride home, after test driving her for awhile and finding her unbearable, we're STILL gonna keep the dowry. All of it. And there's nothing they or anyone else, is going to be able do about that. :)

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Postby ramana » 24 Jul 2007 06:06

Yes KG I am quite at a loss of words at the magnitude of the achievement of the INM generation. Still digesting the import.

Yes it does limit the hard power component of India's manifest destiny but then it was soft always. So no problem.

BRM's credits are the nuance of the test clause and FBR chamtkar.
Last edited by ramana on 24 Jul 2007 06:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby CRamS » 24 Jul 2007 06:16

John Snow wrote:so this J18 , 123 is like Lords test, we squeeked past.... to a draw


With Dhoni, and to a much lesser extent Laxman playing the role of AK and other sci establishment :-).

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Postby ramana » 24 Jul 2007 06:19

Arun_S wrote:
Shankar wrote:1) the computer technology is now advanced enough ro predict how a new weapon design will work even without actually testing (95% proof)


What do you mean by 95% proof?
& what methodology is used to arrive at that number? Does the IA Corp of Engineers undertsand and agree with that methodology?

Math and computer design does not mean anything, if the end-use armed forces do not buy in to their understanding of verifyable physics. That is the problem that is sought to be solved by next round of laughing Buddha. Pending which Armed forces will only belive in what was tested in Smiling Buddha and simple re-configuration there of. That itself can deliver desired yield, but that could be sub-optimal in terms of weight and/or volume. This sub-optimal spread could exact its cost in missile range/MIRV options.

123 will freez Indian capabelity to Pok-II; thus any weight reducing gig or change in primary or secondary fuel/confign can just stay as recessed option and not mainstay weapons in hand.


Arun_S, if they have doubts they are welcome to use two of them per target. But Physics is invariant. So doubts should be based on Physics and not bhaya (fear.)

:)

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 24 Jul 2007 07:15

AllahoAkbar! I post a 527% jinn-u-whine news report which was posted on BRF some time ago, and all these kufr doubt me! :roll:

Kgoan: As I posted some posts ago, my take is that common sense has prevailed, and the US has seen national interest converging with doing trade with India, and heading off the other wagon-trains at the Pass, so 2 speak.
I wouldn't go to these extremes of "bride" and "dowry" etc. Its more a strict business deal, as practised in the Led Frowel Massage Palrol in Isramabad. The cost of the massage is by no means cheap, but apparently the word on the street is that it's worth it.

Other than that, now I can say it: I am anti-nuke, at least of the fission sort. Nuke fission reactor plants are huge white elephant terrorist targets and tax money sinks, inhabited by Physicists with goatees. Given Indian labor and management and babucratic realities, these are going to be monstrously over-priced, far too late in delivering power, and probably will come with severe construction defects and safety shortcuts.

It's one thing to break out of the nuclear apartheid. Now that this appears to be happening, it is time to go after REAL energy independence, and put the money into solar, wind, bio and fusion. Yeah, why not, build a couple of reactors and put the famous symbol of the hands shaking, like they had on the diesel engines on Ceylon Railways:

From the people of the United States of America, to the people of India, in exchange for your $$BB of hard-earned money at Rs. 44 to the dollar. May you glow in peace.


As Ross Perot said, the "Whoosh Sucking Sound" will be of rupees pouring out of India and into the coffers of GeneralElectricStan, WestinghoseStan and ENRON-2-stan. And not a watt of nuclear electric power is coming out of any of this for another 15 years at least.

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Postby Singha » 24 Jul 2007 07:21

nukular isnt not a zero sum game. the big investments in thermal plants, wind are still going on.
we still import technology for large coal plants, so nothing differerent from paying a MNC for nukular tech.

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Postby Mort Walker » 24 Jul 2007 08:04

GD,

You're absolutely right about this. Nuclear is one of many components and the objective is to meet the 2020 plan of 20,000 MWe. It can be done. Indian reactor design and construction, high grade Aussie uranium ore, Areava control systems and GE turbines. Thats the way I see it.

And, oh BTW, bijli charge of Rs. 1/- per kw hr for all of our kids.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 24 Jul 2007 08:09

Tsinghua Tulbine much cheaper than lound-eye tulbine. 8)

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Postby Prem » 24 Jul 2007 08:59

ramana wrote:
Arun_S wrote:
Shankar wrote:1) the computer technology is now advanced enough ro predict how a new weapon design will work even without actually testing (95% proof)


What do you mean by 95% proof?
& what methodology is used to arrive at that number? Does the IA Corp of Engineers undertsand and agree with that methodology?

Math and computer design does not mean anything, if the end-use armed forces do not buy in to their understanding of verifyable physics. That is the problem that is sought to be solved by next round of laughing Buddha. Pending which Armed forces will only belive in what was tested in Smiling Buddha and simple re-configuration there of. That itself can deliver desired yield, but that could be sub-optimal in terms of weight and/or volume. This sub-optimal spread could exact its cost in missile range/MIRV options.

123 will freez Indian capabelity to Pok-II; thus any weight reducing gig or change in primary or secondary fuel/confign can just stay as recessed option and not mainstay weapons in hand.


Arun_S, if they have doubts they are welcome to use two of them per target. But Physics is invariant. So doubts should be based on Physics and not bhaya (fear.)

:)


Does this mean minimum requirement just got doubled ? 8)

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Postby rocky » 24 Jul 2007 09:05

KS is sadly mistaken. Rather than becoming "strategic partners", we are getting closer to "strategically non-hostile to each other" (but with still misconceptions and misgivings about each other).

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Postby bala » 24 Jul 2007 09:21

GE is sure to get a huge payoff well worth the effort of Jeffrey Immelt's excellent speech at PanIIT 2007.

The US-India Nuke agreements on reprocessing is carefully crafted with proper commas and words. But, like Cheney, who did not seem too interested in chattering about reprocessing except other things (read Iran), are the inspectors of US/IAEA going to be dilligent accounting for the mountains of fuel pile up. Gosh the amounts of nuke material must be boring daunting work, thousands of cannisters and missing one or two in the reports would not be much of a stretch. Once India establishes a working relationship, post agreement, all the nasty tension (from the NPT Ayatollahs) eases of and the spotlight is no more on India. No more reams of crappy analysis either from Steven P. Cohen/Krepon/Sokolski. They (post unemployment from esteemed NPT schools) probably will be writing on more mundane subjects (cheese tasting perhaps).

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Postby Prem » 24 Jul 2007 09:31

bala wrote:GE is sure to get a huge payoff well worth the effort of Jeffrey Immelt's excellent speech at PanIIT 2007.

The US-India Nuke agreements on reprocessing is carefully crafted with proper commas and words. But, like Cheney, who did not seem too interested in chattering about reprocessing except other things (read Iran), are the inspectors of US/IAEA going to be dilligent accounting for the mountains of fuel pile up. Gosh the amounts of nuke material must be boring daunting work, thousands of cannisters and missing one or two in the reports would not be much of a stretch. Once India establishes a working relationship, post agreement, all the nasty tension (from the NPT Ayatollahs) eases of and the spotlight is no more on India. No more reams of crappy analysis either from Steven P. Cohen/Krepon/Sokolski. They (post unemployment from esteemed NPT schools) probably will be writing on more mundane subjects (cheese tasting perhaps).


NPAs can easily get job at Ethan Allen and sell furniture.

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Postby vina » 24 Jul 2007 09:55

enqyoob wrote:Tsinghua Tulbine much cheaper than lound-eye tulbine. 8)


Tsinghua Tulbine made of bamboo sticks for turbine blades and chewing gum as the bonding material. Tsinghua Tulbine also bleak down many more times than lound-eye tulbine (leading to far less availability and higher downtime) and also a good 5 to 6% thermodynamically less efficient than the best lound-eye tulbines.

Acuqisition cost wise Tsinghua Tulbine cheaper just like every other Panda stuff like CFL bulbs.. 80 lupees for 15 watt only.. round-eye Phirrips or GE around lupee 160 to 200.. But Tsinghua CFL goes pooff after just a few hour and flickers like clazy and is less efficient.. while lound-eye Phirrips goes on and on and is more efficient and no flicker..

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Postby bala » 24 Jul 2007 09:55

Germany seeks consensus in NSG on Indo-US nuclear deal

Germany on Monday said it would try to "forge a consensus" among the 45-member Nuclear Suppliers Group on the Indo-US civil nuclear deal.

"It's not an easy task (to forge a consensus) given India's consistent refusal to join NPT regime. But we also understand India's security situation in which it has to operate," its ambassador to India Bernd Muetzelburg said while talking to reporters on the sidelines of a lecture on Indo-German relations.Germany has realised that "...the deal has ended India's nuclear isloation and has brought it to the mainstream," He further appreciated New Delhi for moving closer to addressing the concerns on the same front and said India had a good record in fulfilling its non-proliferation objectives.

Expressing solidarity with New Delhi on the issue of terrorism, the ambassador said "we are united with India in condemning all forms of terrorism."

Citing "Islamic fundamentalism" as "most dangerous", he underlined India's "special responsibility" in combating it, as it was a home to the second largest population of Muslims in the world.

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Postby merlin » 24 Jul 2007 09:56

BR owes an open apology to Bhishma (well I do anyway!) and possible others whom we've smacked around without cause**


As one of those who was first a fan then a critic, once the details of this deal are fully out I, for one, will not have a problem apologizing. But, as they say, the devil is in the details.

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Postby pradeepe » 24 Jul 2007 09:56

The NP Ayotullahs have always bayed for blood - understandable, its papi pet ka saval. That donkey was ridden by the US admin as well. Even if the current admin is the one the least shackled by head-stuck-in-ones-behind-itis, it comes with severe baggage of supporting an entrenched policy of de-fanging Delhi.

If what the gurus state is true, and this is indeed the breakthrough in getting to the high table with a cover charge not very heavy and well short of the testimonials. I shake my head in disbelief. I find it very very hard to believe such a shift could have happened. What transpired between Steve Hadley and M. K. Narayanan. Did M. K. N play the ace..."hold off the braying N. P. Ayotullahs, we walk back home empty handed will mean facing the music..both at home and from the fallout of this deal gone sour, We have nothing to lose then. Delhi will test within 24 hours. Your call. Btw, did we mention GOI needs some help spending money".

In steps Mr. Cheney...

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Postby p_saggu » 24 Jul 2007 09:59

kgoan wrote:Folks:

At the current moment, this deal appears to be the finest strategic victory of our establishment in a generation.
Our US bride may well be a cheating, nagging, shrill. We don't know, its early days yet. But we managed to get an unbelievable dowry. Simply unbelievable.

And if we have to send the bride home, after test driving her for awhile and finding her unbearable, we're STILL gonna keep the dowry. All of it. And there's nothing they or anyone else, is going to be able do about that. :)


Since you put it that way, I guess now all SDRE's (That's us) can completely understand. Bottomline. Period...

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Postby Sanjay M » 24 Jul 2007 10:03

bala wrote:Germany seeks consensus in NSG on Indo-US nuclear deal

Germany on Monday said it would try to "forge a consensus" among the 45-member Nuclear Suppliers Group on the Indo-US civil nuclear deal.


Make sure you read this one:

http://www.energypublisher.com/article.asp?id=10408

The former Great Powers of "old Europe" will accommodate us, but the smaller insecure powers of "new Europe" (Atlanticists) will keep squawking, and try to add conditionalities.

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Postby bala » 24 Jul 2007 10:13

More than the "insecure small powers of Europe" I await the drama from the big dragon at NSG - China and its whining/concessions for pet massage palour friend TSP.

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Postby Dileep » 24 Jul 2007 11:00

Wong exampre of Phirrip CFL onlee. The Phirrips available here have only the name. It is clearly re-branded chinese.

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Postby Arun_S » 24 Jul 2007 11:35

Prem wrote:
ramana wrote:
Arun_S wrote:
Shankar wrote:1) the computer technology is now advanced enough ro predict how a new weapon design will work even without actually testing (95% proof)


What do you mean by 95% proof?
& what methodology is used to arrive at that number? Does the IA Corp of Engineers undertsand and agree with that methodology?

Math and computer design does not mean anything, if the end-use armed forces do not buy in to their understanding of verifyable physics. That is the problem that is sought to be solved by next round of laughing Buddha. Pending which Armed forces will only belive in what was tested in Smiling Buddha and simple re-configuration there of. That itself can deliver desired yield, but that could be sub-optimal in terms of weight and/or volume. This sub-optimal spread could exact its cost in missile range/MIRV options.

123 will freez Indian capabelity to Pok-II; thus any weight reducing gig or change in primary or secondary fuel/confign can just stay as recessed option and not mainstay weapons in hand.


Arun_S, if they have doubts they are welcome to use two of them per target. But Physics is invariant. So doubts should be based on Physics and not bhaya (fear.)
:)

Does this mean minimum requirement just got doubled ? 8)

Prem: Not necessarily, but it is a rather convoluted situation.

Indian military did trust BARC and accept new untested designs in 1989 when IAF familiarized and operationalized air delivered nukes, as part of recessed deterrence. Later those BARC weapons delivered as promised (Shakti-2 was pure fission weapons from military stock, to show the unwashed challengers that Indian deterrence was real and had substance before POK-II test).

Use of Shakti-1 based thermo-nukes is however a different story. Thanks to Wallace and FAS doubts have been drilled into Indian people and military. Further BARC scientists assert that the 45kt Shakti-1 will scale to 150-300kt. However Thermo Nukes are more difficult to understand, and the Indian military is not structured to maintain technical competence to understand TN weapons.

There is a gap in what scientists have confidence in, versus what engineers have confidence in, versus what military considers weaponized. What Ramana guru says is true, but that assumes there is a supporting Indian military structure, which AFAIK today is NOT. Given that ready nukes are not in Indian military hands and consequent low key operational doctrine (Red book), and the fact that there is no formal technology wing in the forces. They do not have necessary tools to define what is a reliable nuclear weapons except by field trials. Alas nukes are not commodities that can be field tested like other weapons. One has to develop and believe in the methodology to test vital sub-systems of the weapon. That also means Military have engineers/that have visited and operate high energy plasma equipment to validate the BARC provided sub-system.

Also Engineers do not occupy senior combat commanders position (dont ask me why, it is very frustrating to note that upper command is not multidisciplinary but very parochial). This gap need be bridged to ensure military can verify what has been trustfully given by BARC. "Trust but Verify" is how military works.

Someone has to build an adapter to fit a round peg in square hole.
Last edited by Arun_S on 24 Jul 2007 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby jmaxwell » 24 Jul 2007 11:44

enqyoob wrote:It's one thing to break out of the nuclear apartheid. Now that this appears to be happening, it is time to go after REAL energy independence


Reminded me of this awesome ad

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Postby abhischekcc » 24 Jul 2007 14:12

Folks, in our celebrations, did you hear sound of deafening silence by India's detractors.

THere is no reports, or at least no major reporting, on the deal in various countries. UK, China, Pakiland, etc.

Where is the chorus of crap they used to publish when the negotiations were going on?

Can any member please link the negative reactions to the deal from t hese countries? Tnx.

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Postby Nayak » 24 Jul 2007 14:15

abhischekcc wrote:Folks, in our celebrations, did you hear sound of deafening silence by India's detractors.

THere is no reports, or at least no major reporting, on the deal in various countries. UK, China, Pakiland, etc.

Where is the chorus of crap they used to publish when the negotiations were going on?

Can any member please link the negative reactions to the deal from t hese countries? Tnx.



Why did the dog not bark ?
Why did the pig not squeal ?
Why did the lizard not cluck ?
Why did the duck not quack ?



Shayar-lock Homie asking birader Watson.

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Postby abhischekcc » 24 Jul 2007 14:30

Nayak wrote:
Why did the dog not bark ?
Why did the pig not squeal ?
Why did the lizard not cluck ?
Why did the duck not quack ?



Shayar-lock Homie asking birader Watson.


Because the big bad elephant is roaming around the house in mast mood? :P

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Postby Philip » 24 Jul 2007 16:08

The hard-sell now begins.Ulimately,it is upto our nuclear bofins to tell us whether the deal is worth it and does not restrain our strategic development in any way.If it is foudn OK,then the US has realised that it is better to have India "inside the tent pissing out,rather than outside the tent pissing in".In any case,we should not look at this deal as a favour to a "lesser" nation.A patronising attitude will kill the deal.Our status by virute of our ancient civilisation,population and the fact that we are the world largest democracy,well capable of developing our own nuclear technology without anyone's help is a matter of fact and pride.This is just an acknowledgement of that fact.

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Postby Rye » 24 Jul 2007 16:22

pradeepe wrote:
Did M. K. N play the ace..."hold off the braying N. P. Ayotullahs, we walk back home empty handed will mean facing the music.


Didn't India always have the upper hand in this situation (even if us half-informed folks did not realize it)?

Given that "possession is 9/10s of the law", the only thing that stopped India from reprocessing spent fuel from the earlier fiasco was its decision to not do so in violation of treaties that it had signed with other countries. This was alright as long as the spent fuel was not a public health hazard, as it would be if they started piling up in Indian territory. Maybe the Americans can ship their waste to poor, black communities in South Carolina and pretend that the problem is solved, but Indian govts. can consider such irresponsible options only at their own peril.

If foreign companies leave behiind a mountain of nuclear waste that is a hazard to the Indian public, the GoI will have no option but to reprocess the nuke waste (or having the countries remove the fuel *at their own cost* outside the country).

All India had to do was point out that there was nothing stopping it from reprocessing the spent fuel in its possession...hyde act or not.

So either the US makes that part of the 123 agreement... or they force us to violate the agreement with no apologies from us because the GoI has to do it in the national public health interest...or there is no deal.

I think the last option was not politically acceptable on either side.
Last edited by Rye on 24 Jul 2007 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Shankar » 24 Jul 2007 17:24

What do you mean by 95% proof?
& what methodology is used to arrive at that number? Does the IA Corp of Engineers undertsand and agree with that methodology?

Math and computer design does not mean anything, if the end-use armed forces do not buy in to their understanding of verifyable physics. That is the problem that is sought to be solved by next round of laughing Buddha. Pending which Armed forces will only belive in what was tested in Smiling Buddha and simple re-configuration there of. That itself can deliver desired yield, but that could be sub-optimal in terms of weight and/or volume. This sub-optimal spread could exact its cost in missile range/MIRV options.

123 will freez Indian capabelity to Pok-II; thus any weight reducing gig or change in primary or secondary fuel/confign can just stay as recessed option and not mainstay weapons in hand.


Arun - I agree with your views and not what the bus drivers told me
I just posted the essence of reassuring tone from the driver thats it nothing more and nothing less

To get into more details what was meant is

the subsystems can be tested in actuality without detonating the fissile core.

the test data can be integrated and extrapolated to predict the performance and yield of any particular weapon system to be developed in future

local uranium and imported uranium will follw most likely two distinct use circuits

The imported uranium cycle is import -despatch to safeguarded power reactors both Indian and American made and maybe even to russian and European make .The spent fuel from these power reactors will be taken to stand alone spent fuel storage facility to be set up.After a mandatory cool off period of 4 yrs they may be allowed to be reprocesses ed for extraction of plutonium to be used only in fully safeguarded fast breeder reactors not the present ones for sure

The domestic uranium mined will be fully outside safeguards ,will be used in power production ,reprocessed to extract plutonium and then used either in fast breeders for mixed oxide /carbide fuel rod fabrication or whatever purpose we have in mind

In short we most likely will have two distint fuel use circuits 70% in safeguarded IAEC monitored circuit and 30% in indian circuit to use and utilise the way we deem fit

Surely we will loose a lot if we decide to test even without return clause applicable

And here lies the catch how much we can develop particularly in advanced weapon systems and miniaturizations without actually testing the device in totality

To me agreeing to this deal is agreeing to cap our nuclear weapon proven capability to 98 level and degrading our fissile material build up to 30 % of full potential for a vague term called energy security

which actually makes not much sense anyway

since less than 5% of our energy needs are met by nuclear power as of date

we have the technology to make complete nuke based power reactors and fast breeder reactors in totality

by signing this deal and agreeing to us terms and allowing ourselves to be vulnerable to us lobby we are antagonising countries like iran who can ensure our ebergy security far better thru bilateral agreements

Arun I believe this deal is a sell out of national interest for perpetuity but then how do we make the short sighted govt listen to the true intention of USA.

How can you awaken some one who sleeps while awake -an old indian proverb

That is why the china and pakistan is not protesting -just laughing at our collective stupidity

Rishirishi
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Postby Rishirishi » 24 Jul 2007 18:39

123 will freez Indian capabelity to Pok-II; thus any weight reducing gig or change in primary or secondary fuel/confign can just stay as recessed option and not mainstay weapons in hand.


No matter what the text says on what ever document, the real situation stays the same. The US can withdraw, impose sanctions or what ever it finds suitable at what ever time is pleases. Guarentees or no gurentees.

India MUST enshure that there is a contingency plan, in case international cooperation is withdrawn. If you purchase a uranium plant, then you also make shure there is a stockpile of uranium to last 15 years. You make shure that all aspects of the running the nuclear plants stays within the control of indignious resources.

With this agreament, Indian scientists will get acess to a lot of tech. It is up to India to use the agreament to enhance the indignious capability, and at all cost aviod becomming dependant on the outside.

No matter what the agreament says, the moment india becomes dependant on any country for nuclear tech, that country can use the dependancy as a bargaining tool.

Agreaments at this level means NOTHING. Look at how US regularly screws TSP, how US invaded iraq, without any reason wrongdoing from it, how the Chinease get away with arming TSP etc etc etc.

The only way to maintain independancy is to become an economic , political and military power. And to become that we need Energy.

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Postby Rye » 24 Jul 2007 18:45

deleted. OT
Last edited by Rye on 24 Jul 2007 18:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ShibaPJ » 24 Jul 2007 18:45

Shankar,

Please try to understand the gist of what 123 entails. The threat of sanctions was always there, 123 or no 123. Without 123, there was no fuel for the civ reactors. With 123, we can now get N-fuel and/ or dual-use components (depends on NSG guidelines) directly for the 1st and 3rd stage civ reactors and have multiple-cyle processing modes for them. So we are getting a jump-start to get the 3rd stage rolling parallel to the the R&D/ development going on for the 2nd stage.

The 2nd stage FBRs and tech are not affected. The strategic program continues unhindered.

Let's give the devil due, where it is worth. Take off your tinted glasses only for a moment and think, who else could have given us such a deal? Also read Kgoan's post.

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Nuke deal

Postby Prabu » 24 Jul 2007 18:48

Shankar,

I agree with what you are saying.

1) There is a much bigger Game plan of US than what all GOI experts can see or failed to see.


2) Can experts explain why Anil Kakodkar is less than Happy ??

3) How the 20 % limitation will affect our strategic program w/o testing ?

4) How about the exorbitant costs of exclusive reprocessing zones for US origin fuel ?

5) Not to talk of the elbo space it will curb to our scientists with external inspections?

6) ALL said and done, What is the guarantee, US will enact a new law let us say, HYDE ACT II , and add new conditions ! They can say it is our US law and we are bound to abide by it.

7) Iran is a biggest price which we will be giving for the deal. US may use even Indian forces to invade IRAN. ( Defence co-operation agreements, CONTAINER SECURITY agreements etc to make us a puppet of USA)
(Already Mani shanker iyers has been axed for his strategic vision for pipeline with Iran. Now we will be paying 50 % more price than actual for the UN vote against Iran)

8) What is the strategic price of opening up of our defence research instuiitutes to external agencies, as dictated by the USA?

9) Even defence excersises with US may expose our expertise/methods of approach in a given scenario.

Last, but not the least, I was talking to a common man ( not an expert or chaiwala in any defense establishment !) in Canada, about thge deal and he was laughing and telling this " THE US DOES NOT CARE FOR ANY BODY IN THIS WORLD, BUT ITS OWN INTERESTS. US WANTS INDIAN SOLDIERS TO FIGHT ITS WAR, CHEAPLY "

I am not saying this opinion is the ultimate,but see what is the common man's opinion of USA's neighbour CANADA.

The nuke deal comes with a BIG price ! The question is whether GOI is justified to pay such a price ???

I am not a nuke expert, though.


Prabu


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