India Nuclear News & Discussion - 10 Aug 2007

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Aug 2007 19:07

Arun saab, q: what is the reason behind combining the results of two sub-kilos on may 13 as "one test" ?

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 10 Aug 2007 19:21

And some time back somebody was asking WHY TIFR was under safeguards?

Snowji: My take is that this is because INDIA wants TIFR to come out in the open regime, where equipment can be updated, and the researchers can participate as top researchers in the world should, and get their due credit.

Just because the FACILITY is put under safeguards, does not mean that their past RECORDS go under IAEA inspection. Presumably, what used to be done at TIFR will now be shifted to some swank new PROTECTED facility, far from prying eyes.

Which brings me to the other point that Dr. BC said (it's almost like he's been reading moi's lonely wails in the desert inhabited by "TEST-NOW! Dakoos)

There will be no segregation of personnel between the strategic and civilian programs

This is in fact far better than even I hoped - I was merely pointing to how unrealistic it is to attempt any such segregation, because universities etc. would train the ppl for both, and do the research for both, and be open to personnel from both, and all good universities have KNICK-KNACK type Deep Discussion Facilities. But Dr. BC outright slammed the very idea of keeping Indian experts from participating in the new civilian bonanza. No more discussion needed on this aspect, until the NSG and COTUS have finished signing off, at least.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 10 Aug 2007 19:22

Requesting Permission from BRadmins to do the usual kind and gentle treatment on any EBs coming here with the "Sell-Out! WE MUST TEST NOW! OUR WEAPONS DON'T WORK!" garbage.

Sell-Out! WE MUST TEST NOW! OUR WEAPONS DON'T WORK!

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 10 Aug 2007 19:26

Manmohan Singh has sold out, why is he soft on every other issue except Nuke-clear deal and USS Nimitz sort of stuff. Where is his spunk when it comes to other issues or even local issues, hardly a whimper heard or a speck seen of this gentleman. It's a sell out. We must test now ! Our weapons won't work when we will need em most.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 10 Aug 2007 19:34

Dileep
Power

watts = volts x amps

In A/C the V is high there fore the I is low for given power(in watts)
assuming power factor (cosAlpha to be one which in a/C in reality is around 0.9 for DC it is 1)

As you increase DC voltage (in order to keep I small for given W) ther are problems of arcing etc. I think only UUSR/Russia has/Had long grids of DC transmission (this was the war between Tsela founder of Westighouse AC proponent and Edison who was a proponent of DC)
Hence the group AC/DC in US

saty · Post by **saty** » 10 Aug 2007 19:43

I dare say a lot of us would be more comfortable if these waters were charted by any other person that his Eminence British rule good for India Singh.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 10 Aug 2007 19:56

abcc: Suggest adopting new handle: Something like:

DISH-PREMI SHER

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 10 Aug 2007 19:56

saty wrote:I dare say a lot of us would be more comfortable if these waters were charted by any other person that his Eminence British rule good for India Singh.

Indeed. That man iod only for fighting for western rights. I mean, if he can so openly favour the US/UK, think of what he must have done behind closed doors.

Still, the 'deal' is not a done deal. There are many hoops to cross before we see even one light bulb become lighted due to this deal. I'll distribute prasad, if I can see any wattage from this deal come to my home before any of my children are born.

williams · Post by **williams** » 10 Aug 2007 20:03

Well I think we will balance out once MMS is gone in the next elections. Bottom line is Indian elephant will trample on all weeds created by MMS or any one in a single term. You cannot stop an elephant with few thorny fences created by these short term PMs.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 10 Aug 2007 20:04

Here u go, abcc:

Nuke deal a national tragedy: Left

(For the People's Commie Nation of Led Rizaldistan, that is)

Aptly enough, the Express web page shows an

IQ Question: Which does not belong in the group?

and shows various pests, all of which far more benign than the "Left".

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 10 Aug 2007 20:10

enqyoob wrote:abcc: Suggest adopting new handle: Something like:

DISH-PREMI SHER

I would. But phorum guidelines prevent me from getting creative with my handle.

Here u go, abcc:

Quote:
Nuke deal a national tragedy: Left

Thanks!!!

Of Course I understand that when the left says 'national tragedy', it really means a national tragedy for China.

And to boot, they have even started a whispering campaign against the PM: Reports of PM offering to quit gossip: Govt

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Aug 2007 20:13

"sell-out" does not need to mean giving up everything.

It could - and in this case - means not getting as much as is possible.

On the prior, IMVVVVHO, DAE stood ground.

On the latter GoI did not do enough.

I only see technical discussions here, good ones at that. And, that is good news - very good news.

Perhaps making a list of items India did not get (dual use?) and its impact to the development could help.

There is no doubt in my mind that India deserves better and will never misuse what it gets - even UNSC seat. So, from that PoV, converting LoC and Siachen into peace this and that is a give away. even when provoked - as in Kargil - India demonstrated to the world how to restrain. NO P-5 or UNSC member can make that statement.

J18 needs to be a standard when it comes to civilian nuclear cooperation.

That it is not today, is OK, but not acceptable.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Aug 2007 20:41

i am seeing a large right and left or anti-right or anti-left posters. i am yet to see the green party types.

req : admin/ please carry forward Arun ji's analysis onwards to the next thread.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Aug 2007 20:48

J18 needs to be a standard when it comes to civilian nuclear cooperation.

That it is not today, is OK, but not acceptable.

(It is in Green.)

We need to move to IAEA and NSG.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 10 Aug 2007 21:15

Saty, you have clearly listed out my doubts about the deal. IMO, J18 != 123 but it was promised that J18 == 123.

1) Guarantees != assurances, meetings and multi-layered consultations.
2) Deal requires amendments, while we were expecting a 'complete' deal.

So why did not our babus continued the negotiations and came back with a complete deal? We would have been much happier then.

As far is testing is concerned, our weapons do work but why we should not hope for the better and more menacing weapons than the current best on earth? If that is the aim, then IMO we need to test. If that is not the aim, we do not need to test.

But somebody needs to remind our PM that what we are getting now is not a complete J18 and he should make a statement in parliament that we will work towards it (as NRao pointed earlier).

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 10 Aug 2007 21:24

WHY DIDN'T MMS GET US UNSC VETO -NOW???

(Clarifikashun added later to avoid Conphyooshun: "US" does not mean "YOU" per nkumar nomenclature, where "YOU" means "YOU_ESS" and US means WE with a "W" not as in "DUBYA" but as in "WHINOS". Hope this is perfectly clear onlee)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Aug 2007 21:34

enqyoob wrote:WHY DIDN'T MMS GET US UNSC VETO -NOW???

Let us finish with why not J18 - first.

Otherwise we will not complete our discussion of either one.

My gut feel is that all of these will come, not because GoI's effort. Geopolitics, size of middle class, economy, etc will dictate it.

IF GoI had stood behind J18, DAE would have delivered that too. MHO, of course.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 10 Aug 2007 21:39

This wins the Dr. StrangeLove BRF Award for The Week:

why we should not hope for the better and more menacing weapons than the current best on earth?

Why not, indeed! Bring on the 10-Megaton, arre, bhy not 100 Megaton, or even 1 MILLiTon, yaar? Holi jalayenge, Bum BOOMenge!

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 10 Aug 2007 21:39

nkumar wrote:As far is testing is concerned, our weapons do work but why we should not hope for the better and more menacing weapons than the current best on earth? If that is the aim, then IMO we need to test. If that is not the aim, we do not need to test.

The current best IS 150-300Kt class weapon (just look at the yield of last 30 Nuke test in the world).

Dr RC is consistent in mentioning Shakti-1 going up to 200kt (when tertiary stage is added). And my technical assessment is that the 200kt that he is talking about is the light weight payload configuration (~250 Kg weapon) that lets 75% of the fast neutrons from Fusion stage to escape.

The same design is vanilla scalable for higher yield if required but a bit heavier. For a configuration 150Kg more heavy (Natural U) from thicker outer case to catch the escaping useful fast neutrons, the yield from tertiary increases another 70kT.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 10 Aug 2007 21:58

Folks >> right after the 1998 tests, the Russian news paper Izvestia (IIRC) featured an article by Russian Nuke expert saying that the Indians have mastered the technique of variable yield weapon , 'DIAL a KABOOM'.

so I strongly feel that Wallis wallahs have now realised with tell a tale tellis guys that India has the maal to do business, unkil must have shared that info with lizard and also lizard thru its comrades must have known the maal is real

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Aug 2007 22:08

if you guys browbeat, then FMCT is all what UN-kill wants us to do tomorrow.

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 10 Aug 2007 22:25

Arun Sir, thanks for your explanation.

Since the current best is 150-300Kt, then surpassing the current best, as per my weak understanding goes, could mean a bum of in the range of 350-400Kt but if intelligent and well informed estimates are to be believed it should/must be 10MT, 100 MT and even bigger bums. Also my underdeveloped brain could not comprehend the link between getting J18 nuke deal completed, which we are discussing here and getting a seat in UNSC veto, which as far as I can understand , we are not discussing here. Need to get top management degrees to untangle/link this extremely complex/simple connection.

On another note, as usual, I do not get the reply to the objections raised, perhaps well-informed types do not consider them as valid/good-enuf objections and more interested in giving awards.

Guys, sorry for the interruption, please carry on, need to goto work now.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 10 Aug 2007 23:18

Trying to acquire UNSC veto is a worthless errand -- the UN is never going to be an organization with India as a permanent member. UN is to be ignored.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Aug 2007 23:52

most unsc vetoers are mad countries. sope, we have to first turn mad.

bala · Post by **bala** » 10 Aug 2007 23:59

UNSC Veto was formerly a tussle between US and Soviet Union i.e. nothing tangible achieved unless you were not part of the tussle. Now it has turned into US vs them as long as it does not impinge the P5 crowd. Adding India only gives impunity to P5+1.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Aug 2007 00:06

The second shoe of the Hyde Act?

CNN :: Sources: U.S. assessing Pakistan nukes if Musharraf falls

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 11 Aug 2007 00:11

NRao wrote:The second shoe of the Hyde Act?

CNN :: Sources: U.S. assessing Pakistan nukes if Musharraf falls

this is all tamasha to bolster Mushy's tushy. some opportunities for Dr. Tim likes south asian expert think tanks to recomend no democracy for pakistan or return Benazir or Nawaz ka awaz, and oh by the way more air craft for war on terror

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 11 Aug 2007 00:12

Rye wrote:Trying to acquire UNSC veto is a worthless errand -- the UN is never going to be an organization with India as a permanent member. UN is to be ignored.

I so agree.

I don't understand the obsession of some to join the UNSC. Its to India interest that all Indians work towards destroying the UN. atleast the political wing of it. Particularly the UNSC.

The UNSC needs to go. The people in the US in general hate the UN. However, the US government really likes the UN..as long as its pliable. But culturally Americans at large loathe the "world govt" type organizations. This is an opportunity of Indians to work with the sentiments in America to bring this institution down.

By supporting the UNSC while standing outside it..is supporting China. Simple as that.

Destroy the UNSC, China is like any other country.

The last thing we need in this world..is "World Govt" when countries cannot manage with their own Government to do anything worthwhile!

For the idiots who believe the UN can be reformed dream on. The only way to reform a house infested with termites is to burn it down to the ground... so a new house could be built.

Manny

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 11 Aug 2007 01:07

I don't understand the obsession of some to join the UNSC.

Gee! LOSERS!

Apparently THIS IDIOT also agrees with you lot.

The author adds that the deal allows the United States to defer the question of India becoming a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council.

And where did that appear???

The Foreign Military Studies Office (FMSO), Ft. Leavenworth Kansas, U.S.A. proudly sponsors the production and dissemination of Nonproliferation Issues

SELLOUT!

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 11 Aug 2007 01:12

enqyoob wrote:Requesting Permission from BRadmins to do the usual kind and gentle treatment on any EBs coming here with the "Sell-Out! WE MUST TEST NOW! OUR WEAPONS DON'T WORK!" garbage.

Well, I am not a BRadmin, but I recommend you go ahead with the KAG (kind and gentle) treatment of the EBs.

Really, they are getting out of hand.

BTW, your CBIL^2C must be a close acquaintance of that bus driver on the Churchgate route that some BRFite mentioned last week.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Aug 2007 01:29

apparently, enqyoob, its a bunch of I.. and its a surprise you should mention them as such.

btw, from that idiots' bunch page, there is a special name:-

N********K******!

still want to bunch 'em?

{Please bear caution in what you post.
Deleted by Admin. Arun_S Admin Hat on}

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 11 Aug 2007 01:32

deleted.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 11 Aug 2007 01:35

That's the one I quoted. If u notice, it's up there above Conn The ConMan Hallinan, and SuckUpSki to Pakiski Sokolski.

What company!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Aug 2007 02:06

no offence meant...

Conn.. quotes lora saalman!..

[quote] â€œThe technical and military hardware provided by the United States promises to expand India's political, strategic, and military footprint even beyond China,â€

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 11 Aug 2007 03:33

nkumar wrote: Since the current best is 150-300Kt, then surpassing the current best, as per my weak understanding goes, could mean a bum of in the range of 350-400Kt but if intelligent and well informed estimates are to be believed it should/must be 10MT, 100 MT and even bigger bums. Also my underdeveloped brain

So a combination of your weak understanding and what you believe are intelligent and well informed sources have led you to believe that bigger is better. That a bum of 100MT or even bigger is better and the way to go. For your information, the biggest device ever tested had a yield on detonation of 50MT and was tested by the USSR in 1962 and weighed 27 tons. A full yield test of that device would have resulted in a yield of 100MT. The issue even then was how to transport it? How will India transport a 27 ton bum? What aircraft or missile does India have to transport such a device? Any bomber carrying such a device will be shot down by fighters long before it reaches its target. From a practical military standpoint it had very little value. Khruschev wanted it exploded to make a statement that,"My d*ick is bigger than your d*ick". Do you still think it is intelligent and well informed to build something that size?

.......On another note, as usual, I do not get the reply to the objections raised, perhaps well-informed types do not consider them as valid/good-enuf objections

In the light of your outlandish ideas such as your desire to build a 100MT and "even bigger" bum, is it any wonder that you do not get a reply to "objections raised"?

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 11 Aug 2007 03:46

Idev, I will just say that you need to carefully read the posts in this thread and understand the difference between the opinion and sarcasm. FYI, yes, I very well know the 50MT Ruski bum you are talking about. Youtube has many videos on it.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 11 Aug 2007 03:55

nkumar wrote:Idev, I will just say that you need to carefully read the posts in this thread and understand the difference between the opinion and sarcasm. FYI, yes, I very well know the 50MT Ruski bum you are talking about. Youtube has many videos on it.

That post of yours in which you spoke of 100MT and even bigger bums was addressed to Arun_S. Were you being sarcastic to him? Why?

nkumar · Post by **nkumar** » 11 Aug 2007 04:04

I just said,"Idev, I will just say that you need to carefully read the posts in this thread and understand the difference between the opinion and sarcasm. FYI, yes, I very well know the 50MT Ruski bum you are talking about. Youtube has many videos on it." And I was not sarcastic to Arun_S.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 11 Aug 2007 04:09

"If you want to withdraw, so be it"

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/?p=53

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 11 Aug 2007 04:14

AoA! I onlee asked for 1MilliTon and immediate UNSC VETO, very humbly onlee. Don't look at me for this sarcasm business.

Added later. Re: Conn Halinan. This guys gives idiots a bad name.

See his "Vishnu Stategy". Read the comments section too. And this one.The bugger got his musharraf kicked all over for quite a while, started whining to the place where he published his trash, got kicked again,...

He lies (as musharrafs like him always do, what do u expect of Provosts in the University System of California?) about his objectivity. As you see from the article at that NPA site, the bugger is blatantly pro-Paki, anti-India.

The thing that gets me is that after all the effort we have spent fighting these sh1theads all these years, we find on BRF a growing Lashkar-e-Phools coming back and starting all the same idiotic arguments again. Oh, yeah, we've NEVER heard these "questions" b4..