India Nuclear News and Discussion - August 20, 2007

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sugriva
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Post by sugriva »

I tried to do an analysis of how Pakistan and China would gain if the deal fell through but
I see that they benefit if the deal goes through.
Here's how

1) as soon as the indo-us nuclear deal goes through pak-china sign a similar deal.
Tommorrow another US president may feel that it would be expedient to give a similar
deal to Pakistan (one of reasons being that Pakistan is a leading nation in the war
of words against terror). US may well nigh give the deal to Pakistan just to cut it off
from the pak-china deal.

2) the deal also lowers our freedom of manouverability with respect to Pakistan.
Tommorrow if India needs to attack Pakistan then US has a huge leverage with
this deal. They may simply call off the agreement to put pressure on us and we
would not be able to attack Pakistan. We saw what a few measly IT contracts and
a travel advisory did to 2002 standoff with Pakistan. This is even bigger
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Post by Prabu »

BTW, even human beings can't be that efficient to be having 0% waste cycles within themselves. :) .recycle using pigs.. and there on!
:mrgreen:[/quote]
:rotfl: :rotfl:
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Post by kshirin »

Apropos an earlier post on this forum regarding a poll

url

, and the claim that:

"Now, the best part. Most respondents have no clue as to what the nuclear deal is about. Only 48 per cent say that it is about cooperation on nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. A large chunk, 25 per cent to be specific, believe it’s about making nuclear weapons. The rest either have nothing to say or are under the impression that the deal is targeted against Pakistan and or China. So, there you are!"

Check out the CNN IBN opinion poll on its main webpage, last night 935 seemed to have read every word on the issue. Made one proud to be Indian. Poll's conlcusions werent too bad either.
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Post by kshirin »

Why do the participants in the CNN IBN poll want a mid term poll and risk stability and growth?
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Post by Arun_S »

ramana wrote:Who knows the ways of the Providence? Only recall that the first great empire of historical India was not based on the Chatur Varna. Mayawati is bringing stability to UP. Mulayam (mis)rule was not good for the Indian heartland. It is the great unwashed that voted her in same folks voted out Mrs.G 's emergency grouping. I trust the rural India more than the elite. They have civilizational memory. And about growth maybe it needs a correction and shakeout?.
You are on the dot.
Yes VP Singh brought in Mandalization chaos. But he also empowered the OBCs and the rise of BJP which led to the POKII tests and this deal. So just chill.
Ha, again an insight and wisdom most miss on the forum.

I have personally thought that VP Singh did the right thing to bring Mandalization to empower the disprivileged majority in the rural heartland. It was certainly not liked by city dwelling elites whose considered them self elite but majority (repeat majority, not all) of Indian elites were/are predatory human who sell national interest at the wink of threat to their private privileges. Value system and duty go down toilet; Always driven by 'I' and 'me' alone is special and must survive at the expense of community and nation. The rural India OTOH lives differently. That is the place which gave birth to the concept of people participation in self rule (the concept that grew up to modern democracy) and self governance since dawn of civilization 8000 years ago. One cant forget the lion hearted, generous villagers, the trait seen in rural Punjabis was more prevalent on other parts of the country too.

I do believe that India-US Civil nuclear agreement is pivotal for India and MMS Govt should be supported by political parties who have Indian strategic interest at heart. 1.1 billion Indian people cant afford even one day's delay in regaining economic well-being & Indian dominance.

JMT
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Post by JE Menon »

>>If this is true he should go public with it

No. Never. This should never be done, and I am certain it will not be done - at least not directly. This is a family thing. It should stay inside. No need to wash dirty linen for the world. BJP and others know what is going on, and they will not spike the deal.

Going public with it will be similar to Ronen Sen's extremely surprising blunder, for which he had to give a public apology and a necessary one. However, it is fairly certain that he did not expect Haniffa to print it. It was probably a casual chat. Haniffa will have certainly difficulties dealing with MEA people in future. He should have double-checked with Sen before putting it out. What did he get out of it? An apology from Sen? OK. Its over and done with, bravo. A story for the bar. Regardless, Sen should have known better.

Meanwhile, the losers in this will be Karat and his wife. Time they got pulled down a peg. It will probably be done inhouse by the commies, which makes it all the sweeter. Not likely they will put their heads on the block to save this duo... Indeed, some of them may already be smirking from the sidelines...
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Post by Singha »

afair, the bengal state level is totally against elections and the kerala state
isnt too keen either. the problem in Left seems the pragmatic state level
leaders dont seem to have much power over the loose cannon, morally bankrupt good for nothing people like karat, yechury and surjeet who have
no popular appeal, lack in administrative experience and have sold themselves to the chinese and other interests
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Post by prahaar »

Singha wrote:afair, the bengal state level is totally against elections and the kerala state isnt too keen either. the problem in Left seems the pragmatic state level leaders dont seem to have much power over the loose cannon, morally bankrupt good for nothing people like karat, yechury and surjeet who have no popular appeal, lack in administrative experience and have sold themselves to the chinese and other interests
Without sounding pro-leftist, which i am certainly not. The basic rule is power brings responsibility and the central commie leadership has gotten used to riding on the back their state leadership. Its like they have the power without any responsibility, without getting into their allegiances (which are quite conspicuous even for the blind).
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Post by Prabu »

The sequence as written by the Hundi makes much more sense, but the question is whether the Hundi is being accurate.

Has the US agreed to put the 123 before the COTUS? Since it is a 123 (bilateral agreement), I don't see why other NSG types have any say in it for the US to agree, so it does make sense.

OTOH, the other NSG types have been sitting around saying wait for the US to agree, and the US position was that the US wasn't going to break the IAEAs' rules (ha Ha!) so it was the classic bureaucratic mess with an intricate time line and an uncertain COTUS outcome.

Now the monkey is on the WHOTUS' back, where it should be. Conclude the bilateral agreement - since the COTUS certainly does not claim to be bound by the NSG or IAEA or anyone else.
N^^3, (With due respect to you !)


"The Hindu" is seen as one of the credible and nuetral news papers in India, especially in South India. (I am born and brought up there,Tamilnadu). THE HINDU exposed many scams and stood by it, against ALL odds. My father is one of the regular reader from days of Independance.

Is this article you are reffering too ?

The nuclear deal: key issues and political circumstances

The Hindu article by N,Ram , 22nd August , 2007

BTW, Are you calling HINDU as hundi ?? If so, then what if some Brfites start calling MUSLIM, as Mush-(less) Al-(wo)man ??

Why dont you refrain from calling HINDU, 'Hundi' here after, incidentally it means a religion ! I hopr you understand.

Dont shoot the messenger , try shooting the message.

I am of the Opinion, THE HINDU's opinion is correct, and the bottomline is it supports the deal !
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Post by JCage »

Prabu

Perhaps you dont see the irony in seeing a notoriously anti-Hindu, left run newspaper being named after the very religion its communist editor so abhors.

8) :roll:
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Post by vina »

JCage wrote:Prabu

Perhaps you dont see the irony in seeing a notoriously anti-Hindu, left run newspaper being named after the very religion its communist editor so abhors.

8) :roll:
Oh.. The name = Hindu = The religion part has tried to be repeatedly finessed by the Al -Hundi management millions of times.. Their speil is that "The Hindu" actually from "The Hindustani" and has nothing to do with the religion.. Right.. As if all the Kumbokanam, Thanjavur, and Mylapore kind of filter coffee drinking, curd rice eating mam clientele would in anyway get excited with some vague "urdu" sounding "Hindustani" .. Pigs will fly first of course..

No one . ABSOLUTELY no one in the beyond the northern / hindi speaking belt would refer to India as "Hindustan" .. Sad attempt by al-Hundi management to finesse it.
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Post by SSridhar »

Prabu,
"The Hindu" is seen as one of the credible and nuetral news papers in India, especially in South India. (I am born and brought up there,Tamilnadu). THE HINDU exposed many scams and stood by it, against ALL odds. My father is one of the regular reader from days of Independance.
Ahh..the venerable The Hindu. The qualities you attribute, Prabu, namely credible and neutral were so true in years gone long since by. Not any more. Ever since Ram took over the reins, it has become the mouthpiece of the Commies. I am a Chennaiite and have been brought up on the diet of The Hindu as well. Everybody knows that Ram, Ravi, Malini etc. killed and buried The Hindu that was fearless, trusted and credible. BR has exposed the vile The Hindu many times. Tell us something else.

In the present case too, the justifications for the somersault don't wash. Ram and Ravi reacted too soon early on and then realised that they now have to support the stand of the anti-Indian commies. It is so obvious and no amount of whitewash will wash.
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Post by vina »

Prabu wrote:My father is one of the regular reader from days of Independance.
The Hindu of your father's and grandfather's days is very different from the Al-Hundi that is run by N.Ram today.

For eg, today there was an article.. NOT and Op-Ed piece by N.Ram where he faithfully echoes the CPM position on why the deal must be put on "hold" and making it sound in his words that MM Singh has an "I must have the nuke deal or I will quit" attitude and if the nuke deal falls apart , it must be becuause of that.. He faithfully parrots the same reasons Karat put forward for the deal to be put on hold.. and says that all in all, the deal should be put on hold and goes on to conclude that the current al-Hundi stand is no contradiction from the editorial that came out last week in support of the deal! Why ? .. Because by kow towing to Karat, the deal would be "saved" ..

The Hindu of old was known for its reputation, high quality, separation of opinions from news and its fact based reporting.

Today with N.Ram at the helm it is rushing headlong into being an English language version of the CPM mouth piece.. Ganashakti , with the quality of the TOI(let) , which has anyways degenerated into a soft ***** .. / page three/ flesh kind of rag.
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Post by JCage »

Today with N.Ram at the helm it is rushing headlong into being an English language version of the CPM mouth piece.. Ganashakti , with the quality of the TOI(let) , which has anyways degenerated into a soft ***** .. / page three/ flesh kind of rag.
I swear! The TOI cant be read in any professional area, as its pages are replete with soft ***** pics!
Todays international page has a huge section on "swingers" in the US.
I am no prude, but please- enough T&A- have some serious news for a change!

Whats hilarious is the hypocrisy- TOI is owned by some conservative Jain family but they've realised se* sells...so the rag is full of it..
Not to mention the usual equal-equalitis with Pak.

What a sad rag.
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Post by vina »

Its interesting to see what Wikipedia says about The Hindu. If there is ever a reality check /true mirror that reflects accurately what the world thinks, Wikipedi is it. I hope N Ram and the current al-Hundi's management actually take a look at it and see the serious knocks to Hindu's credibility and to the institution they delivered via their clownish leftist-crusade and the basic inability to separate their personal biases/preferences/prejudices and the professional interest of The Hindu.

Here is a very unflattering write up in the opening paragraphs in Wiki about The Hindu
English-language newspaper in South India, with its largest base of circulation in Tamil Nadu. Begun in 1878, it was founded on the principles of fairness and justice. Headquartered at Chennai (formerly called Madras), The Hindu was published weekly when it was launched and started publishing daily in 1889. The blogosphere now largely refers to The Hindu as "The Chindu", a portmanteau of China and Hindu.This is a result of the current editor in chief's apparent P.R. endeavor for the Communist Party of China [1] . The Hindu became, in 1995, the first Indian newspaper to offer an online edition.[2].
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Post by JE Menon »

Prabhu,

My father, too, is a reader of this piece of Communist trash which they call a "mainstream" newspaper. He does it more out of nostalgia and habit... Boss, pre-sunrise first tea, plus this paper, sitting on the verandah - I don't know whose father (especially in the south) does not go through this ritual... But it is increasingly read with distaste, disappointment and sometimes astonishment at the ridiculous contortions it goes through to get across the commie position. He mostly restricts himself to the Technology, Sports and local news sections...

The commie cabal at its head have driven the paper, from which its name should be wrenched away, into the red muck. It is not without reason that we call it the Hundi...
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Post by Tanaji »

Dont shoot the messenger , try shooting the message.
Is this some sort of a code phrase on this forum? Everyone is saying this these past few days. Ramana especially says this at least on 3-4 posts.

Perhaps its a new code for those in the know?
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

It is a code from the Seige of the Lal Mas(sage)jid Parlor. The massagers were all cute, so they didn't shoot them, just took them away to be debriefed.. :oops:
I swear! The TOI cant be read in any professional area, as its pages are replete with soft ***** pics!


Ooooo! Does The Hundi have pictures of Pakistani Beauties too?
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Post by Kati »

Left In The Past

22 Aug 2007, 0045 hrs IST,Ronojoy Sen, Times of India


The naysayers are at it again. The Left parties are doing what they are best at - saying no. The Left's determination to stymie the nuclear deal could turn out to be another bit of grandstanding that they are so adept at. Or they could actually mean serious business this time.

Either way they've managed to sow doubts about the ability of the UPA government to last beyond this year. The nuclear deal, which is the cause of the Left's current bout of petulance, is really incidental. It matters little to the aam aadmi, who is ostensibly the Left's support base, whether the deal eventually comes through or falls by the wayside. After all he won't be getting nuclear-generated electricity, or for that matter any power at all, in the near future. So what is it that has got Prakash Karat and his comrades so excited? It is the spectre of American imperialism and its supposed inten-tion to undermine India's sovereignty.

As Karat said in a recent article, "The nuclear cooperation deal is only one part of the wide-ranging alliance that the UPA government has forged with the United States". It's not the nuclear deal but the larger relationship with the US that is unpalatable to the Left leaders. If there is still one discernible component in the Left's ideology, it is anti-Americanism.

The unbending hostility of the Indian Left towards the US is, however, anachronistic at a time when world politics has lost the certitudes of the Cold War era. The Left seems to have learnt nothing from events elsewhere. Even as China and Vietnam's trade and economic ties with the US keep increasing by leaps and bounds, the Left pretends to look the other way.

What distinguishes the Left's rhetoric is its remarkable lack of faith in the Indian people and the nation. How does it matter to them that every other family in India has at least one member in the US or someone packing his bags to go there? The leaders of the Left know how best to safeguard India's sovereignty - by keeping Indians away from the contamination of America.

The Left has also betrayed an understanding of 'national interest' that reeks of a bygone era. In this they are one with the BJP and the extreme right who have a rigid idea of the nation state with the state having precedence over the nation. This is once again not surprising considering that the two biggest communist states of our times were built on the principles of ruthless subjugation of different ethnic groups and communities in the name of national sovereignty. China still does that; the Soviet Union disintegrated once Gorbachev initiated glasnost.

The Left's poverty of ideas is apparent from the issue on which they have chosen to pull the plug on the government. If they had highlighted the dangers of nuclear energy they would have been making a valid point. But instead they have resurrected the tired rhetoric of national sovereignty. This is unfortunate since the Left had a great opportunity to play a constructive role at a time when India is experiencing rapid growth but is also grappling with concerns on whether the benefits of growth are reaching the poor.

The Left could have kept up pressure on the UPA government on this count by seeking to fine-tune policy measures on agriculture, employment, health and education. Instead they chose to zero in on the nuclear deal, which is at best a marginal issue.

This clearly shows that the Left clique in Delhi, consisting of people such as Karat, Sitaram Yechury and A B Bardhan, is far more keen to play spoilers than chart a positive programme for the future. They can afford to do this since they don't ever have to face the electorate. Plenty has been written on the divide within the CPM and Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee's pragmatic approach in West Bengal. As an elected chief minister, unlike most of the CPM Politburo members, he has to deliver or get booted out by voters. For all the flak that he has taken on Singur and Nandigram, Bhattacharjee has at least tried to work out ways to improve things in Bengal rather than maintain the status quo.

Not surprisingly, the Bengal unit of the CPM reportedly doesn't want the UPA govern-ment to fall since it would put on hold several projects in the state.

But the Left leaders in Delhi would much rather spout musty rhetoric than interrogate some of the Marxist principles that they profess to abide by. That is why a newspaper columnist has recently suggested that fewer and fewer ideologically driven people are attracted to the communist parties. They find other outlets instead to vent their idealism.

The Left might have brought the country to the brink of instability. But the Indian Left itself is also at the crossroads. In the conceivable future, the Left parties will continue to win around 40-50 seats in Parliament and play a crucial role in government formation. However, they have to make a choice between cynical opportunism and engaging in meaningful politics.
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Post by Scofield »

I am reposting an old post of mine in case someone missed.
Scofield wrote:United States always wanted leverage to arm twist India on strategic matters. All these years they had Pakistan as one. They still have it. Pakistan provokes and attacks us. We respond. US comes to its rescue(NOT the tarrel than mountain deepest than deep friend). Its the United States of America which came to its rescue.Be it in 1971 or 1999. If it was not the US Prez who gave a good faith word to then PM to "make it up" for Indians for showing restraint after parliament attack Pakis were toast. Fortunately US realized that they cannot keep this leverage Pakistan for long enough to keep India down as it was hurting them too may be more than they could handle. The best brains in US figured this one out. At some time they had to let this go and find a new leverage on India. The NSSP is the new one folks. Pakistan is slowly going out.
Civilian Nuclear deal is the first step. Next we have Civilian Space and High Tech Trade deals in the pipeline.
The moment US realizes they have enough leverage on India minus Pakistan,Pakistan is toast.Cube is right. They are nukenood alright but they have enough pinheads in their country to cause trouble to western nations esp US of A. A lot depends on this deal and that is why MMS is so desperate. He wants Pakistan toast just as we jingos do here on BRF. Just give the man a chance.
We must think beyond our traditional politics in order to become a superior force to reckon in the next 20 years. The New World Order favors Democracies and we are a vibrant one. It would be ideal for a National Unity government at this stage but we are not that lucky. We need "Left" out of the scene for good and things seems to progress in that direction.
We are not gonna go to war in the next 20 years atleast in order to ascend to a higher plane on par with US. People of India deserve better quality of life than we have right now.
Regarding our strategic deterrent. We have them well under control. we are not a banana republic like Pakistan. Our crown jewels are well protected and we can surely make enough more every year to be a powerful enough force not to be taken lightly by anyone. This is our chance to make it BIG.Lets grab it!
Last edited by Scofield on 22 Aug 2007 18:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Avarachan »

Nuclear deal fueling opposition to Singh

The Japan Times: Wednesday, Aug. 22, 2007
Brahma Chellaney

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/print/eo20070822a1.html

NEW DELHI — Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's political future has come under a cloud over a controversial civil nuclear cooperation agreement with the United States that has helped isolate his party in Parliament.

At the root of the crisis is Singh's insistence that Parliament has no role in completing an international pact other than to be merely informed about it.

Singh's Congress Party holds only 26 percent of the seats in the ruling lower house of Parliament and runs a wobbly coalition government with the help of a number of smaller parties, including a leftist bloc that has now come out openly against the nuclear deal.

Singh bears much of the blame for his deep political trouble. When he signed the original agreement-in-principle with U.S. President George W. Bush in July 2005, he caught his country by surprise but promised to reach out to political parties and build a national consensus in favor of the deal, seen as unduly impinging on India's strategic autonomy.

Instead, through a public-relations blitzkrieg, Singh has consistently sought to spin reality to suit political ends and blocked Parliament from scrutinizing the deal. As a result, opposition has steadily built up against a deal that has a bearing on the symbol of India's pride and independence — its nuclear program.

The present crisis has been triggered by a followup bilateral nuclear agreement — required not by international law but by Section 123 of the U.S. Atomic Energy Act. Although the accord was concluded July 23, its text was not publicly released until Aug. 3 to allow the government to use the interregnum to soften public opinion through selective leaks to the media.

That strategy has not only failed, but some of Singh's own remarks have helped generate a political storm that his handlers are now seeking to hold back. Singh first mocked his leftist allies' opposition to the deal, asking them to like it or lump it. He then declared on the eve of a new session of Parliament: "The deal is signed and sealed. It is not renegotiable."

If the so-called 123 agreement was already "signed and sealed" and not "renegotiable," the message he conveyed to Parliament was that it could do little more than be a spectator. Yet the same agreement cannot take effect until the U.S. Congress has examined and approved it through a joint resolution of both chambers. In fact, the U.S. Congress even has the right to attach conditions to this agreement — a right it exercised in 1985 on a nuclear deal with China, delaying its implementation by almost 13 years.

Indeed, the U.S.-India deal has served as a striking reminder of the need for the world's most populous democracy to improve its public accountability and oversight.

It is precisely due to the anemic checks and balances in the Indian system that a prime minister, who uniquely came to office without winning a single popular election in his entire political career, has escaped legislative scrutiny of his actions at home even as he has expended Indian taxpayers' money on lobbying American members of Congress to pass the necessary enabling U.S. legislation on the deal. That legislation, enacted last December and known as the Hyde Act, in fact, has inflamed Indian public opinion because of the long list of conditions it attaches to nuclear-energy cooperation.

Singh is the latest in a series of septuagenarians and octogenarians who have led India since 1989 but, unlike his predecessors, has no grassroots base. A technocrat who served as finance minister in the first half of the 1990s, Singh became prime minister in 2004 by accident when Congress Party leader Sonia Gandhi declined to assume that office and nominated him instead.

The nuclear deal has spurred national demands that the Indian Constitution — one of the most-amended constitutions in the world — be changed to make parliamentary ratification mandatory for any international agreement or treaty to take effect. It does not redound to the credit of Indian democracy that the executive has an untrammeled right to conclude and ratify international pacts without parliamentary approval.

Singh's effort to present the deal as a fait accompli to the national legislature also raises a basic issue: Even if Parliament has no right to ratify an international pact, doesn't it at least have the right to dissect its clauses and offer an advisory opinion?

But if India's first nominated prime minister has his way, Parliament will have no role to play other than hold an academic debate on any of the arrangements that are being worked out under the deal, including the 123 agreement with the U.S. and an upcoming safeguards-related accord with the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency.

Singh affirms that he has "kept Parliament fully in the picture at various stages of our negotiations with the United States" by making "several statements." But the question is whether statements made by the prime minister in Parliament should merely convey what has been agreed to and signed, or comply with the will of the legislature.

The deal raises weighty issues, given that India is assuming perpetual, legally immutable obligations that are to remain in force (including IAEA safeguards on its entire civil nuclear program) even if the U.S. exercised its right to suspend or terminate cooperation.

Brahma Chellaney, a professor of strategic studies at the privately funded Center for Policy Research, is the author, among others, of "Nuclear Proliferation: The U.S.-India Conflict."
The Japan Times: Wednesday, Aug. 22, 2007
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Post by vsudhir »

Scofield
Left will be wiped out either way. If they support the deal the vote base would devour them alive and if they dont the political structure and corporate lobby certainly will.
Nice way for internal cleanup.It was about time anyway.
The heart wishes this were true, the head sadly shakes itself.

The commies have a nondemocratic irongrip on WB and partly on Kerala. Their seat share is more or less assured. They won't get 'wiped out'. Far from it. Coupled with the fact that coalition politics is here to stay, single party majorities are out etc, they'll always have disproportionate spoiler leverage. If only the national parties could coordinate legislation on matters of mutual agreement (in economics and administration) quietly, the left would be left high and dry. Since that is not happening, we're stuck with the left, for worse, probably.

The good that does come outta this N-standoff b/w UPA and half carat is that the Beijing bhakti of the lefties stands exposed in mass-media, openly and unabashedly, for the first time. This reduces their pretences of intellectual-ism and such, it identifies other areas of leftie influence thru the lens of chini relations etc. But wiping them out electorally? Not likely.
JMTs and all.
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Post by CRamS »

enqyoob wrote:
The Left has a problem - they can't be seen to sit quiet as India aligns with the US and makes a huge joint trade-strategic collaboration decision.
Oh please, what India-US strategic collaboration BS are you talking about when US is in bed with TSP? If you are for the deal because India gets a few dog bones in the form of electricity its one thing, but to tom tom this as some kind of colossal strategic passionate romance with US is at best intellectual masturbation.

My prediction is that there will be some form of India TSP equal equal once the deal is consummated. Already TSP is making noises about testing bla bla, its only a matter of time before "Kashmir is nuke flashpoint" starts ringing in Washington/London, and TSP will get something similar. And once that happens, both India and TSP will be de-facto nuke_nude. This would definetly be a great strategic gain for USA/TSP, but for India?
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Oh please, what India-US strategic collaboration BS are you talking about when US is in bed with TSP? If you are for the deal because India gets a few dog bones in the form of electricity its one thing, but to tom tom this as some kind of colossal strategic passionate romance with US is at best intellectual masturbation.


Tired of reading crap from idiots, sorry. If you want to use abusive language, yeah, I grew up with street kids who could dish out the best. In several languages. Tell the Admins to call off all the forum rules, and we'll see how much you can take. Or else, get civilized, get a brain. That's the part that one THINKS with, not the one u masturbate with. Get someone to explain what has been happening for the past few decades to you, r e a l s l o w l y. And then try engaging in serious debate.
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Post by Tanaji »

My prediction is that there will be some form of India TSP equal equal once the deal is consummated. Already TSP is making noises about testing bla bla, its only a matter of time before "Kashmir is nuke flashpoint" starts ringing in Washington/London, and TSP will get something similar. And once that happens, both India and TSP will be de-facto nuke_nude. This would definetly be a great strategic gain for USA/TSP, but for India?
  • Where does Pakistan find billions of $$ to buy these reactors assuming such an agreement takes place?
  • How do you think a US president will sell this agreement to Congress given the nuclear Walmart in Pakistan?
  • How does a civilian nuclear agreement with Pakistan make India nuke nude?
:eek:
vsudhir
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Post by vsudhir »

My prediction is that there will be some form of India TSP equal equal once the deal is consummated. Already TSP is making noises about testing bla bla, its only a matter of time before "Kashmir is nuke flashpoint" starts ringing in Washington/London, and TSP will get something similar. And once that happens, both India and TSP will be de-facto nuke_nude. This would definetly be a great strategic gain for USA/TSP, but for India?
CRS,

With all due respect and all that, this prediction of yours seems way over the top. Time will tell if it will come true but there're reasons galore why India and TSP are being increasingly delinked in every sphere that counts - political, economic, military, technological - by everybody that counts. And no, this delinking is an imperative. Its not as if somebody's decided to do us any favors. This delinking is driven by ground realities, its like not doing it is not tenable anymore. Feel free to disagree (and disparage India's inherent strengths by talking as if == with TSP is even feasible anymore).

A burgeoning middle class, a trillion dollar economy, a sustainable growth rate second to none (but one), a technological base that has impressed time and again against all odds and oddities, a governance model that resists arm-twisting beyond a point as power flows back to 600 million voters every now and then, a self-developed N-sector that has demosntrated advanced capabilities in both energy and weapons beyond anyone's predictions .... and we're == with TSP just because it suits PRC to say so or unkil-auntie to sweet-talk TSP with? TSP's game is up. Time is on our side and all those weapons unkil is giving them are useless against us in a declared war (which'll go nuclear very soon indeed, IMHO).

You're welcome to your opinion, of course. PErhaps really TSP==India because PRC/unkil say so. Perhaps, you're beyond seeing what I see, so farsighted and visionary your insight could be. I've been wrong before, so I'll take my own convictions with some salt.

JMTs and all that.
/Have a nice day.
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Post by Scofield »

vsudhir wrote:
The heart wishes this were true, the head sadly shakes itself.
But wiping them out electorally? Not likely.
All this tamasha for nothing then? Its hard to believe that MMS would place himself in the line of fire without sufficient gain. Sonia aint gonna make that mistake. Left is the one which has been setup.Its so clear.Or am I smoking some grass!
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Post by SwamyG »

My family too grew up with "The Hindu". There were days where I wouldn't touch any other newspaper - considered Indian Express etc as just trash. Reading The Hindu is just a tradition in several households. Elders do not think in terms of "agendas" parroted by it.

Gone were those days....There were times when the Young World, Science Magazine, Sunday section were some of the best it offered.

Its subscription would start falling down if it adopted the name "The Hindustani". Nobody in Tamil Nadu even calls India by that name.
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Post by ldev »

Dont know if this has been posted before. TVR Shenoy does make some good points. I think the lack of political savvy in the Congress leadership shows through here.

The Left's 'death of a 1000 cuts'

The prime minister should have had no illusions about the Left Front's dislike for the United States, that is built into the very genes of the CPI-M, the CPI, and their partners. (The CPI-M has been getting most of the media attention but the fact remains that its smaller allies are taking an even more 'hard-line' position on the nuclear pact.) Given this situation, the prime minister had no business telling President Bush that he had the majority of Parliament behind him. Was he seriously expecting the BJP to bail him out?

Even with the support of the majority of the MPs -- and in this instance the prime minister clearly does not command their allegiance -- it is the duty of a prime minister to keep the Lok Sabha on his side.

That is not just his constitutional duty, it is common sense. But Dr Manmohan Singh has been functioning as the super-bureaucrat that he was rather than the politician that he is today.

Sixteen years ago, the then finance minister was able to implement the first stage of financial reforms because of the acquiescence of the BJP, then as now the principal Opposition party. (The Congress lacked a simple majority and the Left Front was opposed to liberalisation.) What Manmohan Singh never grasped was the hard work that his prime minister, P V Narasimha Rao, put in with the BJP leaders.

Can you imagine Manmohan Singh having the grace and the wit to appoint a BJP leader to lead an international delegation? But that is just what Rao did, when Kashmir became an issue at a conference in Geneva, making Atal Bihari Vajpayee the leader and Farooq Abdullah his deputy, with a Congressman only as the third-ranking leader.
Having said this, I think that the support that this deal has among the urban middle class who are the BJP's backbone means that those voters will not forget the BJP's short term opportunism when the next elections come around, whether they are snap elections immediately or in 2009. The BJP will be left only with its hard-core saffron crowd, certainly not enough for them to be asked to form a government. Something for them to ponder about.
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Opposition of the Deal

Post by bchatnani »

US-INDIA NUCLEAR DEAL GENERATES VEHEMENT OPPOSITION IN INDIAN PARLIAMENT & PUBLIC DEBATE: An Analysis

[quote]The Indian Prime Minister for some uncanny reasons was not really forthcoming on the progress of negotiations of the Deal as they became more complex and vexing. The whole process was mishandled in the sense that on such a sensitive issue as “nuclear programsâ€
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Post by Kati »

A very Good Analysis by Dr. Kapila.

Hope this will stop the garbage spewing by many BRites, such as "Ban the Lefts" (like it or not, there are more than fifty MPs from these parties - elected by millions of aam-janatas), "Left is opposing it so it must be good" (ha! I wish things were so simple), "92% NRIS support the deal" (these NRIs love India so much that 90% of them relinquished the Indian citizenship),... etc.

If a deal is so good then why not have an open debate in the Parliament?

Enjoy:

http://www.saag.org/papers24/paper2339.html
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Post by John Snow »

deleted
Last edited by John Snow on 22 Aug 2007 20:05, edited 1 time in total.
Gerard
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Post by Gerard »

"The Hindu" is seen as one of the credible and nuetral news papers in India
Naxal Ram's paper is about as "neutral" and "credible" as the DPRK (North Korea) is democratic.
CRamS
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Post by CRamS »

enqyoob wrote: Tired of reading crap from idiots, sorry. If you want to use abusive language, yeah, I grew up with street kids who could dish out the best. In several languages. Tell the Admins to call off all the forum rules, and we'll see how much you can take. Or else, get civilized, get a brain. That's the part that one THINKS with, not the one u masturbate with. Get someone to explain what has been happening for the past few decades to you, r e a l s l o w l y. And then try engaging in serious debate.
Admins, please take note of this pompous idiot's abusive tirade against me. And by the way dude, you please get some grey cells injected, some of your delusional analsyses like TSP is nuke_nude will be laughed off by any serious Indian policy maker.

NRN
(no reply necessary).
Philip
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Post by Philip »

If the deal is so good for India,then I cannot understand why the good Sub-Inspector Singh cannot debate it in Parliament,which is the decision making body of the people.our PM has succumbed to some previous occupants of the seat,where he has taken any opposition to the deal as a personal affront to him.One report says that he is surrounded by pro-US babus who along with him were shocked at the Left's opposition!If true,then he has been living in a fool's paradise for too long as the strident voices of the Left over our prostration before Uncle Sam has been in the air for a long time.he must remember that his is a coalition govt. that relies upon the Left for support and is now facing the music because he thought that he could armtwist the Left,he being the TINA factor (there is no alternative),with the left afraid that pulling the rug would open the door for a BJP return.The Left knows that if this deal goes through in the secretive manner that is has been worked out and with the good S.I.Singh at the helm of the country,we will abdicate our freedom of independent thought and action for another few centuries.That too ,to a US regime that is the most hated worldwide,including by peoples of western nations like Britain,France,etc.

The shocking outburst by our Ambassador to the US shows how far the rot has set in and how corrupted our current govt. and the babus are by the Bush administration.They have more concern for what the US govt. thinks than the Indian people.The sooner this mendacious regime of morally corrupt Congressmen is booted out the better for the nation.Let a future election bring in a new patriotic regime.
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Post by Mort Walker »

I don't think the BJP can support a no-confidence motion at this time. The political strategists in the BJP like Arun Jaitley, Raj Nath Singh and LKA know that they will take a beating in the polls. It is better they support the current govt. on this issue and let the left and Congress fight it out over several months. In the meantime, the BJP(NDA) needs its strategists and party whips consolidate and produce a national platform/agenda, then wait till until the current govt. falls within 6 months.

If a no confidence motion passes, rest assured we will have Lalu or Mayawati led government at the center. As bad as it sounds, I would rather have Jaylalitha as PM long before those two clowns.
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Post by ramana »

Umaro jaan, Was that necessary to add those details. Please edit. Atleast we need to keep up GK Reddy & Kasturiranagan's standards.

Philip, The thoughts in your first line are the troubling ones making people pause. Also read the Kapila's paper and the part about the idea of secrecy from Indian side. All this makes me feel that something else is going on. If GOI wants to go into open alliance with the US they should be open about it and build a consensus and not go by signing documents without debate. And they call themselves heirs to JLN who was a democrat above all else and was accountable to teh Parliament.

The problem is the whole UPA was put together with ex-bureaucrats and unelected represetatives of the INC. So they feel unaccountable to the Lok Sabha and the Indian people. Very elitist "I know better than you what is good for you and will shove down your throat even if you dont like it." Ronen Sen played this role to a T. Having been so involved in the negotiations should he try to make sure the players are on board the train? Yes he is close to the engine but others are not yet onthe train let alone the caboose.

The first step is to break the Harvard Kennedy school of govt training for the IAS chaps. Thats when they start thinking that the US interests are Indian interests.
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Post by svinayak »

SwamyG wrote:My family too grew up with "The Hindu". There were days where I wouldn't touch any other newspaper - considered Indian Express etc as just trash. Reading The Hindu is just a tradition in several households. Elders do not think in terms of "agendas" parroted by it.

Gone were those days....There were times when the Young World, Science Magazine, Sunday section were some of the best it offered.

Its subscription would start falling down if it adopted the name "The Hindustani". Nobody in Tamil Nadu even calls India by that name.
Without the millions of readers knowing in the late 80s and 90s the leftist and Marxists have taken over the The Hindu and changed its editorial and general sense of the news reporting. Most of the readers still think it is the same news paper. The slow takeover by the leftist/elitist of the English media is one story not explored.
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Post by NRao »

who along with him were shocked at the Left's opposition
If MMS is making mistake after mistake WRT Chicom analysis that is good. If his analysis of Chicom is accurate, he probably would not take such steps.
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Post by CRamS »

Tanaji wrote: Where does Pakistan find billions of $$ to buy these reactors assuming such an agreement takes place?
From whereever they will get their billions to sustain them now and the millions they get to buy F-16s.
How do you think a US president will sell this agreement to Congress given the nuclear Walmart in Pakistan?
You can't be serious. If you know how US works, and if indeed US wants to give TSP the same deal, a awy will be found. For a start it will be called nuclear wal*mart in 'South Asia' and US efforts to curb that through peacful nuke cooperation between the two South Asia rivals India and TSP.

[*]How does a civilian nuclear agreement with Pakistan make India nuke nude?
Please read all the objections that erudite folks like BC/BK/AS etc have regarding this deal. Their fears will only be magnified because for equal equal status, TSP will prostitute itself and give US whatever it wants, this then gives US a lever to put trmendous pressure on India, not to mention 5th columnists and other demented 'liberals' in India.

Finally, Uneven has the pulse on US policy. Read what he said. If TSP acquiesces to US demand on nukes they will get the same deal.
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