India Nuclear News & Discussion - 24 August 2007

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geeth
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Post by geeth »

>>>Here is what the deal opponents are saying, with my comments in italics:

>>> * The deal makes India subject to the Hyde Act. (This started out as a misunderstanding, but after repeated corrections/explanations, it is now no longer possible to consider it anything but a lie. Being often and loudly repeated doesn’t make it any less of a lie.)

Hyde Act is an India specific legislation. Do you acknowledge that? If yes, why on earth Americans would draft an agreement with India which completly bypasses this India specific legislation? doesn't the domestic law mentioned in 123 agreement include US Atomic Act and Hyde act? Hasn't Nicholas Burns acknowledge d that 123 agreement negotiated with India is fullly in conformity with Hyde act? If yes, who is perpetuating a lie on Hyde act?

>>> * The deal doesn’t meet the minumum requirements of the J18 deal. (Same comments as on the Hyde Act. The 123 deal not only meets but exceeds the J18 requirements. BRF member enqyoob has repeatedly challenged anyone to prove otherwise, and his challenge has not been taken up. Hmm…I wonder why?)

It is acknowledged by none other than MMS himself during the course of discussions that many things agreed upon in the J18 was subsequently rejected by the American side. The pro-deal lobby propounds the theory that since XYZ is not mentioned in the 123..it is fine. IMO that is not the case. The American side enacted a specific law which prohibits the American Executives from making any adjustments in future. Indians wish it is not the case. It is only OUR wish. Americans have made amply clear even after the 123 negotiations that they are bound by the Hyde act..and it is an acknowledged fact that Hyde act is against the letter ans spirit of J18. let enqyoob or anybody else say what ever they want - the fact remains something else, IMO.

>>> * The deal would cause India’s nuclear weapons program to be CRE’d. (No one has explained how the deal would do that. On the contrary, GOTUS officials have repeatedly said that the deal is silent on India’s weapons program, a fact that could be verified by anyone actually reading the text of the deal. What this amounts to is that the deal’s opponents are saying, “I’m not sure how they’ll do it, but somehow or other the Americans will send their secret agents into India’s weapons labs and CRE the program. They couldn’t do this without the deal, but with the deal they willâ€
Last edited by geeth on 26 Aug 2007 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nkumar »

Who's afraid of 123?

Much has been said and written about the India-US agreement on civil nuclear cooperation. Most of it, more so media discourse, has been driven by partisan interest rather than informed perception. Following in the footsteps of President George W Bush, protagonists of the deal would have us believe that 'you are either with America, or against America'. But the deal is not only about strategic partnership; it's also to do with our goals, self-esteem and pride as an independent nation of more than a billion people which wants to be treated as an equal by America.

Kanchan Gupta picks on four key questions and looks for possible informed responses

Does the deal hit India's indigenous three-stage nuclear programme?

Much has been written and heard in recent times about India's indigenous 'Three-Stage Nuclear Programme' and how the India-US 123 Agreement, once it is operationalised, will adversely impact this programme. Once again, most comments either supporting or opposing this view are rooted in ignorance of the facts and are nothing more than rhetoric, often based on bogus claims and counter-claims fed by interested parties.

The 'Three-Stage Nuclear Programme' was designed by Homi Bhabha. In his lifetime, Bhabha, the doyen of our nuclear programme, could not imagine India receiving either fuel or technology from the nuclear powers, least of all the US. In any event, till July 2005, India's emphasis was on 'self-reliance' and our experience with the US reneging on its agreement to supply fuel for Tarapur on the most specious of pleas (Pokhran I was meant for "peaceful purposes" and did not violate the 123 Agreement which then existed but was presumed to have done so by the American Congress) had made our scientists resolute in their goal of achieving success on their own.

For those interested in the technical details of the 'Three-Stage Nuclear Programme', it links the fuel cycle of Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors and Fast Breeder Reactors for "judicious utilisation of our limited reserves of uranium and vast thorium reserves". The emphasis of the programme remains on "self-reliance and thorium utilisation as a long term objective".

The three stages of our indigenous nuclear programme are:


# Stage I: Construction of natural uranium, heavy water moderated and cooled pressurised heavy water reactors. Spent fuel from these reactors is reprocessed to obtain plutonium.


# Stage II: Construction of Fast Breeder Reactors fuelled by plutonium produced in Stage I. These reactors will also breed U-233 from thorium.


# Stage III: Construct power reactors using U-233 / thorium as fuel.


We are currently working at Stage II and our scientists have been able to put together a prototype fast breeder reactor. A second reactor is being built. A little known fact is that near-high quality plutonium and U-233 made available from this programme (made by processing thorium of which we have 25 per cent of the world's reserves) goes into India's strategic programme and is crucial to develop our nuclear arsenal. (info source?)Fuel that will be supplied to India under the 123 Agreement and amendments to NSG guidelines will be strictly meant for - and will have to be accounted for - our civilian programme, that is, generating power. Any reprocessing of this fuel, if there is a final agreement on this issue, will be done at a separate safeguarded facility and cannot be diverted for 'other' purposes.

Therefore, we will have to depend on our indigenous programme to sustain our strategic programme. But herein lies a catch: While the Government of India is evasive, the US Administration is categorical that all future fast breeder reactors will be covered by safeguards, which means they will be classified as part of the civilian nuclear programme. Since there is no reason to disbelieve US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns (he has been astonishingly, and refreshingly, upfront, compared to our babus who have been obfuscating facts), the fast breeder programme, as a key link to our strategic programme, will be stymied. [GoI must come up with clarification now, is it all future FBRs or only civilian ones as we thought earlier before 123 was released]

This has two implications: First, technology that has been entirely developed by our scientists and has no external component will no longer remain under wraps, we will have to make it public to inspectors of the safeguards regime. Second, our supply of plutonium will be severely restricted, if not disrupted. In brief, our military nuclear programme, dependent on fissile material from facilities not covered by safeguards, will be capped as a prelude to an ultimate rollback.

Seen from the perspective of our strategic nuclear programme, the 123 Agreement is not good news. Especially because the eventual fate of our fast breeder reactors remains unknown and the three-stage programme, as of today, stands jeopardised.

But what about India's right to reprocess?

The Government and apologists of the deal have been tireless in pointing out that the Americans have conceded India's right to reprocess spent fuel, which was denied to us in the case of the spent fuel generated at Tarapur and which is still lying somewhere, under Article 6 iii of the 123 Agreement. The facts, however, are to the contrary: The claimed right to reprocess is dependent on three factors.

First, India will have to set up a separate storage and reprocessing facility; second, it will have to place the facility under international verifiable safeguards; and, third, it will have to work out modalities and arrangements with the US for reprocessing at the facility.If you think this is no big deal, think again. Setting up such a facility is no child's play and comes with an enormous price tag. More important, to get it going in terms of reprocessing spent fuel, we will have to negotiate a separate agreement with the US which will then have to be approved by the American Congress.

Hence, we are looking at India exercising its reprocessing right at some distant point in future. That, too, will be subject to abrupt termination because the 123 Agreement provides for the US withdrawing its approval "in exceptional circumstances". The agreement specifies fallback safeguards, end-use inspections (if you thought you could slyly divert some of the reprocessed stuff for your strategic programme, think again) and in-perpetuity safeguards even after the deal's termination. In this case, till the full fuel cycle runs out of life.

So, shall we go test a bomb?

There's nothing in the 123 Agreement that prohibits India from doing a Pokhran III or IV or V. To that extent, the Prime Minister was not misleading Parliament when he claimed India's sovereign right to conduct nuclear tests has not been curtailed by the deal he has struck with the US President. But what the Prime Minister failed to tell Parliament is that the US position has not been articulated in cold print, but nonetheless it has been implied without leaving anybody in doubt about the consequences that are to follow if India feels compelled, either because of technological reasons or security considerations, to conduct fresh nuclear tests along the lines of Pokhran II (as opposed to the implosion for 'peaceful purposes' during Pokhran I).

US State Department spokesperson Sean McCormack has made it clear that the "proposed 123 Agreement has provisions in it that in an event of a nuclear test by India, all nuclear cooperation is terminated". [There was some clarification on this from US state dept but it does speak of intentions of US, also some think tank in US says, we are interpreting the deal differently] This is a view shared by key American officials (Burns?) who have been involved in fleshing out the text of the agreement, which says the deal can be called off if the country seeking termination "determines that a mutually acceptable resolution of outstanding issues has not been possible or cannot be achieved through consultations".

Therefore, the consultative process that has been mentioned in the agreement to resolve potential conflict over a disruptive act, that is India conducting further tests, will entirely depend on how the Americans (and subsequently the NSG members) perceive it. Clarifications issued by the US Administration and planted in the media by the Prime Minister's Office are not worth the paper they have been printed on. The ultimate arbitrator will be the US Congress, which will go by the provisions of the US Atomic Energy Act and the Hyde Act. (No Mr Kanchan Gupta, you are wrong if Kapil Sibal, GoI's points man to defend the deal in Parliament, is to be believed)

Section 106 of the Hyde Act makes the US position abundantly clear: "A determination and any waiver under Section 104 shall cease to be effective if the President determines that India has detonated a nuclear device after the date of the enactment of this Act." And what does Section 104 say? "Pursuant to the obligations of the US under Article I of the NPT, nothing in this title constitutes authority to carry out any civil nuclear cooperation between the United States and a country that is not a nuclear weapon state party to the NPT that would in any way assist, encourage or induce that country to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or nuclear explosive devices."

Even if we were to ignore the invocation of the US Atomic Energy Act and the Hyde Act for the moment, we can't ignore what's written into the 123 Agreement. The American position on fresh tests by India - it takes a dim view, as in the past - has been incorporated in the text by making it unambiguously clear that the US shall have the right to demand the return of all fuel and material supplied under the deal. And once this happens, no NSG country, including Russia, Britain and France, for love or gold, can be talked into providing alternative fuel supplies to protect our strategic reserves.

The Hyde Act insists that India cannot conduct any further nuclear tests. The 123 Agreement ensures the sanctity of the Hyde Act by ensuring that "national laws" will apply in determining disputes, (again wrong, 123 overrides Hyde) that is, the US Administration will be governed by the Hyde Act, and carries it forward by establishing America's right of return. Whether or not the Government is willing to admit it, India's voluntary moratorium on further nuclear tests will be converted, as and when the agreement is operationalised, into, first a legally-binding bilateral legality, and, later when we have settled on an agreement with the NSG, into a multilateral legality. That's a huge commitment to make; are we ready for it?

But India can ignore the consequences and go ahead with new tests. Perhaps our comrades would like to set off a few bombs to celebrate their coming to power, which they hope to after the next general election. Provided the Government of the day has the courage to stand up and face the world and pay the price. It happened when Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee was Prime Minister; it is unlikely India will have a visionary leader of his stature and with his courage of conviction as Prime Minister in the near future. So why talk about it?

Can China, will China, strike a nuclear deal with Pakistan?

Ever since India and the US initiated the 'Next Steps in Strategic Partnership' in January 2004, China, an acknowledged nuclear weapons state and an NPT signatory, has made little effort to hide its displeasure and disquiet. Beijing has been upset for two reasons: First, a strategic dialogue between New Delhi and Washington will invariably lead to increased strategic cooperation; and, second, it understandably does not want the emergence of a countervailing economic and military force in its neighbourhood.

In July 2005, when the India-US joint statement on civilian nuclear cooperation was issued, the writing on the wall for China was clear. But what it did not expect was the rapid evolution of that statement of intent into an agreement of cooperation. China and the US had concluded a similar agreement in July 1985 when Ronald Reagan was President. But it took 13 years for the agreement to be operationalised in March 1998 when Bill Clinton was President.

In China's case, the US Congress was much more involved in scrutinising each and every element of the agreement than while formulating the Henry Hyde Act, which exempts India from the restrictive clauses of the US Atomic Energy Act. A January 2007 Congressional report, assessing the implementation of the US-China agreement, records that "Congress played an important role in determining implementation of the agreement, including holding hearings, crafting legislation, and requiring and reviewing Presidential certifications... After the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown, Congress enacted sanctions, suspending nuclear cooperation with China and requiring an additional Presidential certification on the PRC's nuclear non-proliferation assurances".

Given its experience in dealing with the US Administration and the Congress, China is presumably astonished by the enthusiasm with which both have responded to the India-US deal; the naysayers in the US, primarily the non-proliferation hawks who are opposed to any waivers for anybody, have been outnumbered. A miffed China has not taken this too well; stories have periodically surfaced in the Pakistani media about how Beijing will enter into a similar agreement with Islamabad; and, some Indian mediapersons, who have little or no technical understanding of the India-US agreement but feel obliged to support it to demonstrate their pro-American credentials, have in recent days put out stories about an imminent China-Pakistan deal.

Which brings us to the question: Will Beijing dare defy Washington and strike a nuclear deal with Islamabad? In fact, can China do an America vis-à-vis Pakistan's nuclear programme?

In theory, this is possible. As a NPT signatory, as one of the P-5 and as a country with an elaborate civilian nuclear programme (much of it still on paper) covered by IAEA safeguards, China is technically at par with the US and could enter into bilateral nuclear cooperation programmes with its strategic allies. But this is easier said than done. China's credentials as a non-proliferator are at best hazy; there is evidence that links Pakistan's basement programme, which resulted in the Chagai Hill explosions, with covert Chinese assistance. There is also evidence of not-so-covert Chinese assistance for Pakistan's missile programme.

Any Chinese move to enter into a nuclear cooperation agreement with Pakistan will immediately raise hackles in the American Congress - this despite the China-specific 123 Agreement being more elastic that the one India has accepted - and jeopardise the US-China agreement. Waivers can be waived and restrictions re-imposed through the simple and expedient means of a fresh Bill negating the existing law that facilitates US-China civilian nuclear cooperation, at least in theory. It is, therefore, doubtful whether China would want to risk its ambitious civilian nuclear programme: It plans to add 31 new reactors by 2020 to meet the soaring energy demand of its economy; by 2050 it wants to generate 150,000 MW of nuclear power.

Any disruption in the US-China agreement would have a cascading effect on fuel and technology supplies and a revision of the American position would invariably lead to an adverse review in the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group whose regulations are essentially fashioned along the restrictive clauses of the US Atomic Energy Act. So, if Beijing were to push for a nuclear deal with Islamabad, the first tremors would be felt in Washington and the ripple effect would trigger a clampdown by China's colleagues in the NSG. In today's fluid geopolitical situation and at a time when the world is increasingly uncomfortable with China's growth and suspicious of its intentions, Beijing would be utterly stupid to enter into a sweetheart deal with Islamabad to spite New Delhi and Washington. And, whatever else the Chinese Communist Party bosses may be guilty of, they are definitely not stupid.

For the foreseeable future, therefore, we need not worry about China making a counter-strategic move by negotiating a civilian nuclear agreement with Pakistan. Unless, the US has secretly indicated that it won't be averse to such a deal. Conspiracy theorists would suggest that this is all part of a grand strategy and both the US and China are working in tandem. There's no shortage of such theorists, just as there's no shortage of alarmists who have been front-paging their bunkum about an imminent Beijing-Islamabad deal.
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tough stand

Post by joshvajohn »

CPM wanted electricity but not nuclear powerstations (thats why Koodankulam Nuclear powerstation is kept in Tamil Nadu and electricity is supplied into Kerala). CPM wanted American industries but not American Electricity (West Bengal). CPM should learn from their masters in China who is not only friendly to US but also get all their updated technology from the US counterpart in Nuclear powerstations. CPM has exposed their weakness and their internal inconsistencies and problems to the public. The government should expose CPM's anti Indian stand and make sure those votes are turned into their favour. BJP is behaving like a foolish child at this stage. Why do not they take a policy to win the election rather trying to divide UPA and CPM crack.
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Post by abhischekcc »

I have perhaps a lot of free time on my hands, that I wrote this story.

Here is the story of the Trojan Horse, refurbished for a modern readership 8) .

Enjoy.

Trojan Horse

Click the link, then download the doc file.
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Post by Rangudu »

Huge news!
India finds uranium in icy Ladakh

By IANS
Sunday August 26, 11:50 AM

Bangalore, Aug 26 (IANS): Scientists have for the first time found uranium in 'exceptionally high concentration' in Ladakh, the icy Himalayan region in Jammu and Kashmir that has strategic significance for India.

Samples of rocks analysed in a German laboratory have revealed uranium content to be as high as 5.36 percent compared to around 0.1 percent or less in ores present elsewhere in the country.


India badly needs uranium to fuel its nuclear power plants and the proposed India-US nuclear deal is all about importing it. The Ladakh find may cheer those opposed to the deal even though detailed exploration and mining may take years.


The Ladakh block lies between the Indian plate in the south and the Asian plate in the north and is bounded by the 'Indus and the Shyok suture zones'. Collision between the two plates 50-60 million years ago formed the Himalayas.


The earth's crust that got crushed and melted during collision and pierced the surface, cooled and solidified becoming 'magmatic' rocks dotting what geologists call the Ladakh 'batholith'. It is in these rocks that uranium is found.


'The presently recorded uranium rich zircons from young magmatic intrusions of the Shyok suture zone and associated sequences is the first record from these remote regions,' Rajeev Upadhyay, a geologist at Kumaon University in Nainital, told IANS in an e-mail interview.


'In geological terms, these uranium-bearing magmatic rocks exposed in Ladakh are very young (between 100 million and 25 million years ago),' he said.


Other uranium rich rocks in India such as in Andhra Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand and Rajasthan are very old geological terrains known as the Precambrian (2,500-3,000 million years old), he said.


For his study, reported in the journal Current Science, Upadhyay took samples from thick exposed granite from a place north of Udmaru village in Leh district. The village in the Nubra-Shyok River Valley is situated on a volcanic rock formation known as the Shyok Volcanics.


The samples of rock mineral (zircon) were analysed at the isotope laboratory of the University of Tuebingen in Germany where he had gone under the Alexander von Humboldt Fellowship.


'Geochemical analysis of the separated zircon grains showed exceptionally high concentration of both uranium (0.31-5.36 percent) and thorium (0.76-1.43 percent),' Upadhyay said. He added that the study is preliminary and 'detailed work is in progress'.


According to Upadhyay, uranium-bearing magmatic rocks are located all along Kohistan, Ladakh and southern Tibet (from east to west). 'However, contents of uranium may differ from place to place,' he said.


Officials of the atomic minerals division under the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) did not reply to questions about the significance of this new find or whether the Ladakh uranium could augment India's reserves.


The total established uranium resources of the country so far (in the form of uranium oxide or yellow cake) are 94,000 tonnes. The majority of these resources, according to DAE, occur in three 'provinces': Singhbhum in the east, Mahadek in the northeast and Cuddapah in the south.


The low uranium content in ores, however, makes mined uranium in India expensive compared to that in Australia whose ores contain as much as 15 percent uranium.
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Post by abhischekcc »

NOW what is the rationale for the nuke deal?

After this find, team MMS cannot even argue that lack of Uranium will be a constraint on India's nuclear energy programme.


After so much information and analysis, it is difficult to argue that the PRIMARY rationale for the deal is political consideration - not technological requirements. And my opposition to the deal is also on political grounds, not on technical grounds.


------------------

N^3, from now on, my swan song will be -

'Kill the deal, we have enough fuel' :)
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Post by Scofield »

If the above article has even an iota of truth and it should be given the benefit of truth we must pause all transactions with US on the nuclear deal. I only supported the deal because we did not have enough supplies to boost our growth curve. Well we have a new factor now. What a timing!
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Post by abhischekcc »

MMS, Ronen Sen must be running around like headless chickens right now :mrgreen:
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Post by SSridhar »

nkumar wrote:Who's afraid of 123?
Kanchan Gupta picks on four key questions and looks for possible informed responses

Does the deal hit India's indigenous three-stage nuclear programme? A little known fact is that near-high quality plutonium and U-233 made available from this programme (made by processing thorium of which we have 25 per cent of the world's reserves) goes into India's strategic programme and is crucial to develop our nuclear arsenal. (info source?)
It is not so much of a 'little known secret'. It is ne of the sources of Pu for the strategic programme. See AK's interview in Frontline, Mar 25-Apr 07, 2006. He says:
What is the significance of India's insistence that its FBTR and PFBR, which are only for research and development and power generation, should not come under safeguards? Breeders are not necessary for India's nuclear deterrence.

The development of Fast Breeder Reactor (FBR) technology and the development of its associated fuel cycle technology have to go hand in hand because breeders have to operate in a closed-cycle mode. In the development of breeders, we have to go through the evolution of several fuel cycle technologies, not one. For example, the PFBR will initially be on the mixed oxide fuel system. We shall have to reprocess and re-fabricate the mixed oxide fuel. Then we want to take it to the next stage of development where we have to develop the metallic fuel. We then have to talk about the fuel cycle for metallic fuel. Later, about the thorium fuel cycle. So there is an intimate link between the development of FBR technology and the development of associated reprocessing and re-fabrication technology.

Our infrastructure for fuel cycle activities is rather small now. That is also intimately linked to the strategic programme. So the PFBR and the FBTR cannot be brought under safeguards because they are closely associated with the strategic programme through the fuel cycle linkage.
Therefore, we will have to depend on our indigenous programme to sustain our strategic programme. But herein lies a catch: While the Government of India is evasive, the US Administration is categorical that all future fast breeder reactors will be covered by safeguards, which means they will be classified as part of the civilian nuclear programme. Since there is no reason to disbelieve US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns (he has been astonishingly, and refreshingly, upfront, compared to our babus who have been obfuscating facts), the fast breeder programme, as a key link to our strategic programme, will be stymied. [GoI must come up with clarification now, is it all future FBRs or only civilian ones as we thought earlier before 123 was released]
This is what the Separation Plan states:
14. Taking the above into account, India, on the basis of reciprocal actions by the US, will adopt the following approach:
i) Thermal Power Reactors: India will identify and offer for safeguards 14 thermal power reactors between 2006 and 2014. This will include the 4 presently safeguarded reactors (TAPS 1&2, RAPS 1&2) and in addition KK 1&2 that are under construction. other PHWRs, each of a capacity of 220MW, will also be offered. Phasing of specific thermal power reactors, being offered for safeguards would be indicated separately by India. Such an offer would, in effect, cover 14 out of the 22 thermal power reactors in operation or currently under construction to be placed under safeguards, and would raise the total installed Thermal Power capacity by MWs
under safeguards from the present 19% to 65% by 2014.
ii) Fast Breeder Reactors: India is not in a position to accept safeguards on the Prototype Fast Breeder Reactors (PFBR) and the Fast Breeder Test Reactor (FBTR), both located at Kalpakkam. The Fast Breeder Programme is at the R&D stage and its technology will take time to mature and reach an advanced stage of development.
iii) Future Reactors: India has decided to place under safeguards all future civilian thermal power reactors and civilian breeder reactors, and the Government of India retains the sole right to determine such reactors as civilian.
This has two implications: First, technology that has been entirely developed by our scientists and has no external component will no longer remain under wraps, we will have to make it public to inspectors of the safeguards regime.
Not true. What do we have to make public ?
Second, our supply of plutonium will be severely restricted, if not disrupted. In brief, our military nuclear programme, dependent on fissile material from facilities not covered by safeguards, will be capped as a prelude to an ultimate rollback.
Our supply of PU will not be severely restricted as India retains the right to classify new reactors as civilian or military. If existing facilities at BARC & Kalpakkam will remain outside the purview and if these are supplying today our Pu for strategic programme, how can our future supply dwindle ? In the same interview above, AK says:
What will be the cost of the separation?

It is difficult to quantify exactly. Our programme is not at a standstill. As our programme grows, we have to expand our facilities. New facilities will have to be added. It will be our choice to define tomorrow which of the future facilities will be on the civilian side, and that will be India's sole determination. You are talking about additional costs. If the programme is static and you have to separate, then you will have to build duplicate facilities. If the programme is growing, you can build additional facilities to meet the growth requirements. Whatever capacity we are setting up will be fully utilised at all times. To that extent, additional costs will be contained.... There will be some costs. But I imagine that it will not be excessive, particularly because we are going to implement the separation plan in a phased manner over a period of time.
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Post by Singha »

the desi new uranium finds are imo psyops to stampede the NSG suppliers
to tying up deals while they have time. its cheaper to import uranium in
a drum from australia than develop the infra in ladakh to extract it - in
the short term. long term we can use such new domestic sources for
weapons in next generation.

CCS approved yesterday a 1000cr uranium processing plant in Andhra.
seems to be a weapons oriented project. Domiasat mining will also
start soon, clearances are in.

The Hindu:

CCEA clears proposal for uranium plant

Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: The Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs (CCEA) on Thursday cleared the setting up of a uranium mine and processing plant at Tummalapalle in Kadapa district of Andhra Pradesh. To be set up by the Uranium Corporation of India, the estimated cost of the project has been pegged at Rs. 1,106.29 crore.

Announcing this after the CCEA meeting, Union Finance Minister said this project was being set up to meet the uranium fuel requirements of India’s nuclear power programme. Faced with questions about a possible linkage with the Indo-U.S. civilian nuclear deal, he sought to clarify that the two were not linked. “This is our own uranium. We will mine it, we will process it, and we will use it.â€
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Post by vina »

The 123 nuke deal is vital for India.. Absolutely vital no two opinions about it. As India's energy demands are set to explode , a fossil fuel based carbon economy is out of question.. China builds something like ONE thermal power station a WEEK and it already burns more coal than the US, Japan and Europe put together! . We simply cannot follow that route. The costs in terms of environment, natural resources and dislocation will be massive and simply unbearable. We need to move away from the carbon economy as a source of fuel. The nuke can be an intermediate step to whatever is the final technical solution. But we need the stepping stone. Mining all the coal and gas in India and burning it is simply unsustainable. Look at this NY Times article on China's pollution problem.

[quote]The New York Times
Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By

August 26, 2007
As China Roars, Pollution Reaches Deadly Extremes
By JOSEPH KAHN and JIM YARDLEY

BEIJING, Aug. 25 — No country in history has emerged as a major industrial power without creating a legacy of environmental damage that can take decades and big dollops of public wealth to undo.

But just as the speed and scale of China’s rise as an economic power have no clear parallel in history, so its pollution problem has shattered all precedents. Environmental degradation is now so severe, with such stark domestic and international repercussions, that pollution poses not only a major long-term burden on the Chinese public but also an acute political challenge to the ruling Communist Party. And it is not clear that China can rein in its own economic juggernaut.

Public health is reeling. Pollution has made cancer China’s leading cause of death, the Ministry of Health says. Ambient air pollution alone is blamed for hundreds of thousands of deaths each year. Nearly 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water.

Chinese cities often seem wrapped in a toxic gray shroud. Only 1 percent of the country’s 560 million city dwellers breathe air considered safe by the European Union. Beijing is frantically searching for a magic formula, a meteorological deus ex machina, to clear its skies for the 2008 Olympics.

Environmental woes that might be considered catastrophic in some countries can seem commonplace in China: industrial cities where people rarely see the sun; children killed or sickened by lead poisoning or other types of local pollution; a coastline so swamped by algal red tides that large sections of the ocean no longer sustain marine life.

China is choking on its own success. The economy is on a historic run, posting a succession of double-digit growth rates. But the growth derives, now more than at any time in the recent past, from a staggering expansion of heavy industry and urbanization that requires colossal inputs of energy, almost all from coal, the most readily available, and dirtiest, source.

“It is a very awkward situation for the country because our greatest achievement is also our biggest burden,â€
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

This is TOOOOO rich. In Go-Pu, not in Urinium.
Samples of rocks analysed in a German laboratory have revealed uranium content to be as high as 5.36 percent compared to around 0.1 percent or less in ores present elsewhere in the country.


May I ask why these samples of such Strategic Significance, glowing with 5.36 Percent Uranium, found in Ladakh-e-Strategic Bin Signiphicantz, were shipped to a
GERMAN LABORATORY
for analysis? IN 2007????

Oh, Yeah, why have any Deal at all? Why not just surrender everything to the Germans, the Pakis, the Chinese, WITHOUT any deal giving us ANYTHING?

Isn't it WONDERFUL that the Patriotic Energizer Bunnies did not pause a microsecond (OK, in their case a few hours..) to think about this simple question?

abcc, ever heard a swan singing? Or a Canada Goose? 8) Remarkable resemblance to an Energizer Bunny braying, IMO.

Next year we'll be told that the Peopre's Ribelation Almy has ribelated this virrage and arr the mountains alound it.
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Post by Gerard »

All zircons are rich in Uranium and Thorium... they are part of its crystal structure.. which is why zircons are used for Uranium-Lead dating.

What would be odd would be zircon crystals that did NOT have very high Uranium content... they would be older than the earth itself.

The question is..how prevalent are these zircon crystals within the granite rock? If you grind up a ton of granite, what is the percentage of Uranium in it (not in the zircon crystals themselves)?

You can take any old rock from your yard and find a microscopic zircon in it. Then analyze the zircon crystal and measure the Uranium percentage.. it could be 30% . that doesn't make your rock 'Uranium ore'... Cameco won't be buying your backyard anytime soon and Medha Patkar won't be squatting outside your house...
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Post by Rye »

getth wrote:
t talking about foreign policy NOW. I have said it in my previous post and I thought you wanted a clarification on that issue too.
How about focussing on the answer to one question before you switch topics? Randomly flitting around topics has no focus.
What do you mean by 'manufacture of supplies? Why are you llinking supply, manufacture & imported nuclear plants with AHWR?
It does not matter what I link in, does it. The point is that
Indian suppliers of parts to foreign reactors will acquire the skills
to manufacture such parts over time. India does not have that capability now, AFAICT.
Either you have not understood what I have said or just pretending not to know - I have mentioned clearly how the supplier of the plant can armtwist India - by way of not co-operating in technical support, supply of spares, supply of fuel etc.
If you see the reports of the kind of deals the GoI is trying to strike with the suppliers, India will need to have the ability to create its own supplies in case of sanctions.
If you are saying domestic Industry can be kicked and made to supply parts for imported plants, you are stretching it a bit too far.
Did you bother to read the news w.r.t. what kind of deals the GoI is trying to strike, or do you just prefer to grab your talking points out of thin air?
Even if it happpens, it would be a tedious and long process. In any case, we will not be able to indigenise 100% parts
Of course, it is a tedious and long process. What do you expect?
Once a mythical "deal" is signed, the world changes overnight?
India and US have a lot of mutual suspicions that may or may not be overcome -- this deal tries to make the way to overcome such suspicions, and if either side tries any funny stunts, you can be assured that India and US will walk away from each other....but both of them have a lot to lose if they do so.
Only alternative is to import ALL the spares for the WHOLE life cycle of the plant. It is not practically possible. Cost of spares supplied will be another issue.
It is the manufacturing knowledge that is going to save our butts in case of sanctions etc. The important thing is to gain the capability to manufacture hi-tech components in the shortest possible time, so that we become immune to sanctions -- in fact, sanctions will only make us stronger, as it has in the past.

I did not say the relationship with the US will not be good. They stopped the supply of Cryogenic engine when the relationship was good. Latest, they stopped supply of a particular fibre used in the manufacture of AGNI III, when MMS & Co are crowing that the relationship is at its Zenith. All I did was highlight the risks involved in doing business with the US.
There is no risk-free venture, no? Taking calculated risks is the name of the game -- the calculated risk that MMS and co seem to be taking is that an energy supply surge in the next decade, while India has a huge young population, will kick up India's global competitiveness and also provide it with mechanisms to up the ante with China. If this deal falls through, nothing happens --- we will have a few more rotting nuclear plants in addition to the rotting dams and hydroelectric plants and rotting imported machinery....nothing to worry about, we are like that onlee.

When you talk of strength & weakness regarding Tarapur fiasco, what exactly is your point?
The point was about the end results of the Tarapur sanctions -- did India improve its indigenous capability or lose it? You are pretending it is the latter by claiming that another Tarapur would make India weaker --- I am saying that is not true. Indians have shown themselves to be no pushovers when placed under pressure.
NO. They will forcefully try to take away. If they fail, they might try using those who are pliable.
Really. Them and which army? No one can force India to hand over anything -- remember, possession is 9/10s of the law. We have only signed over our promised "voluntary" intent of not testing in the future --- if we break the promise they can demand we return stuff. Doesn't mean they can enforce that demand -- all the additional safeguards etc. etc. are to take care of that boundary condition.

First you say I am appearing Paranoid and in the next sentence you say such an eventuality is surely possible. These are contradictory.
Any eventuality is possible if do not guard against it. So the apparent contradiction you see in my statement is only because you think that India not have any responsibility other than sign up for the 123 and then while Indians sit idly on their asses waiting for all the wealth and prosperity to float in, America would be powerless to play games because they "promised not to do so in the 123". Guess what? American will always play its power games as long as it can project power across the globe, defending India against their interference is something we have to learn.

The only possiblity is to bypass Americans completely in future, chances of which are slim, IMO.
Why should we bypass the americans? Why wouldn't we follow a strategy of diversification of suppliers along with ensuring that the IAEA/NSG rules are NOT more restrictive than 123 -- if it is, India must walk away from 123......But we are not there yet, since those negotiations are yet to be completed.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

AMAZING NEWS FLASH! INDIA IS RICH BEYOND BELIEF!
A piece of red soil from the village of Pusampleabad has been analyzed in a laboratory in Leichtenstein, and has revealed a RUBY CONTENT OF 100 percent, compared to the usual content of 0.0000001 percent.

This news will definitely cheer up investors depressed by the recent sell-off in the Indian stock market. All currency trading and precious metals trading has been suspended in view of this tremendous finding. It is estimated that India has 1757,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons of soil, and at today's prices for rubies (and rabies), the price is too large to be calculated on this writer's 10 fingers and 10 toes.
Oh, BTW,

EXCUSE # 3490: ONE STONE WITH 5.36% URINIUM AND 93% PU HAS BEEN FOUND IN A DITCH IN LADAKH*.

Prime Minister ManMohan Singh and Ambassador Ronen Sen seen running around like Headless Chickens. Relativity Theory raises possibility that it is this illusion was caused by Energizer Bunnnies going round and round, and unable to lift their own heads from the Pu to see the heads of those standing around.,


*: In Ladakh, ditches are used in lieu of outhouses.
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Post by Manny »

So..If they did find Uranium, then its all the more reason to sign the 123 deal. Sign it and don't import Uranium.

This way, we can benefit from the 123 deal without the pitfall of people taking back their nuke fuel if and when we explode!

Duh!
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Post by Manny »

.NB: I am no great fan of Indian Commies.

IF it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.......

:shock:
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Another nice piece by Tavleen Singh

Post by BSR Murthy »

http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/212660.html

Congress and the Commissar

Tavleen Singh

Posted online: Sunday, August 26, 2007 at 0000 hrs IST


As I watched Commissar Karat and his fellow commies charge the prime minister with bartering away India’s ‘sovereignty’ in exchange for the nuclear deal, I wondered if they were suffering from historical amnesia. Or do they just choose not to remember our Soviet era in the hope that nobody else will either.

Well, having become politically conscious in those bleak decades, I remember all too well. I remember that all our weapons came from the Soviet Union and all the shoddy consumer goods we produced were exported to that country in a form of commerce that was more barter than trade. I remember what a shabby, hopeless country India was on account of this restricted engagement with the world. I remember how India’s foreign policy was so dictated by the USSR that we did not even dare condemn the invasion of Afghanistan? How is it that the comrades did not see any threat to our sovereignty in those bad old days?

If our sovereignty was strong enough to survive when all anyone talked about when they discussed India was ‘our starving millions’, then it is more than likely to survive now when the economy is growing at nearly 10 per cent and we are considered an ‘emerging economy’.

As a proud Indian who relishes the fact that we no longer wander the world with a begging bowl in our hands, it disgusts me when people talk of our ‘sovereignty’ as if it were so fragile that it could be destroyed by a single treaty. But, it is not about a single treaty, is it?

What bothers our lefties is our growing closeness to the United States. In the words of a statement that arrived in my mailbox from Medha Patkar and a couple of her NGO pals, “This deal is part of a successful attempt by the United States to build a strategic relationship with India, in confronting the rising capitalist challenge from China, where India will be used as its client in the region.â€
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Post by Manny »

I agree, if there is an election today, the BJP would get trounced. People like me who feared the congress party because of their lefty leanings are now comfortable with them because they are nationalist first and foremost. They have come around.

I say bring it on.. let there be an election. Go ahead with the 123 agreement full speed ahead!
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Manny:
So..If they did find Uranium, then its all the more reason to sign the 123 deal. Sign it and don't import Uranium.

This way, we can benefit from the 123 deal without the pitfall of people taking back their nuke fuel if and when we explode!

Duh!
Hold that thought! Extending that, the most likely scenario is:

1. Sign the 123 deal and the IAEA deal and NSG deal, whether they want their Pu returned or not. Allow some clause like "NSG has the right to REQUEST return of their fuel in case of a nuclear WEAPON test by India."

2. Pass the Laloo-Shourie Bill that mandates the refusal of entry by official inspectors of any sort from any organization that imposes sanctions on India, into India.

Nothing to do with the nuclear deal, of course. 8) Just an order to stop the bullies at the port of entry, or deny them visas.

3. Pass the Karat Amendment to Gherao the cars/SUVs of any inspectors already in the country, but attempting to enter any facility upon which their organization has imposed any "sanction" etc. After all, there is a conflict of interest there... so prevent them from disturbing the peace (and the air freshness) at the gates of the facility where they may have to be debriefed.

4. Take the usual 10 years to actually permit any fuel entry, while the Ladakhian Pu is processed at high speed.

5. So by the time the new civilian reactors are actually built, all the fuel going into them may be Ladakhi Pu. No "return" requirements. As for the "equipment" imported under the deal, reverse-engineer them and then leave them out in the rain like was done to the Idukki Turbines from Canada (no reverse engineering done there, but I understand that the turbine pipes served very well as housing for many citizens...)

6. Then the NSG can pay to remove said equipment and go trash them (after paying compensation to the occupants under the People's Tenants' Rights Laws passed under Komissar Karat's regimes in Kerala and W.Bongol.

Everybody happy. Well, not the NSG, but they enjoy :(( and :evil: anyway.
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Post by BSR Murthy »

Manny wrote:I agree, if there is an election today, the BJP would get trounced. People like me who feared the congress party because of their lefty leanings are now comfortable with them because they are nationalist first and foremost. They have come around.

I say bring it on.. let there be an election. Go ahead with the 123 agreement full speed ahead!
My sentiments exactly. Right on!
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Post by ramana »

UNI Reports
Nuclear, biological threat looms large over India'
Sunday August 26 2007 10:15 IST

UNI

BANGALORE: A nuclear, biological or chemical threat is looming large over India and 'is very imminent' in view of use of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) across the globe, according to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief controller W Selwamurthy.

Stating that the country should be prepared to face such threats, he told that they need not come through state-sponsored terrorism, even a small group of people could use WMD as was done in Tokyo recently and create panic and disturbances in the society.

"A small case is sufficient enough to be blown up and create confusion among the public and lead to traumatic experience", he felt. To a question, he said India was fairly well prepared to meet any such eventuality.

There was a need to take protective measures keeping in view of stockpiling of WMD by many countries, which had the capability to deliver them on target.

Terrorists could use them as soft options, he noted. He said the DRDO had developed five categories of technologies -- technology for early detection, personal protection, collective protection, decontamination and medical management -- to safeguard the country's interests in such an eventuality.
Why was this report made?
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Probably to find new projects since the UPA probably isn't going to fund new weapon program startups. Also, if u want to find a link to this thread...

Collaboration in WMD/ NBC detection is probably a BIG part of the plans and urgency underlying Dubya's keenness on the 123 etc.

The US needs India on board with the container-checking business, but getting the right technology in everyone's hands, and getting ppl to talk to each other, is nightmarishly difficult with all the sanctions and NPT rules.

For instance, it would be a GOOOOD idea to get Indian border ppl armed with NBC detectors. At Nepal, LOC, BD border, Myanmar border, coastline, and TN/Tiger coast. And Kerala coast. This is a monstrous task, but ignoring the threat is even worse. Hyderabad shows what is possible.

This is the other implication of strict fuel cycle accounting in the "safeguarded" facilities. The reason for "safeguarding" is not to "Cap, Rollback, Eliminate" the strategic program. The much worse fear is that Indian civilian nuke facilities will be as "chalta hai" as armories and ammo depots, which regularly go "boom" to hide the fact that they have been robbed clean.

Once the safeguards are imposed, then any glowing stuff found anywhere is in one of 3 categories:

1. Indian Military
2. Safeguarded international
3. Contraband.
Last edited by enqyoobOLD on 26 Aug 2007 20:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by svinayak »

abhischekcc wrote:
Here is the story of the Trojan Horse, refurbished for a modern readership 8) .

Enjoy.

Trojan Horse
How true are these. Why do they Hold KS as responsible.
The American siege of the Indian nuclear establishment lasted for thirty years, but failed.

The Americans devised a new ruse: the Indo-US civilian nuclear cooperation agreement for peaceful purposes.

It was built by Nicholas Burns and filled with yankee warriors led by the NPAs.

The rest of the American establishment appeared to acquiesce to the deal, but actually lay hid behind silence.

Meanwhile, a yankee spy – K Subrahmaniam, convinced the Indians that the deal was a gift despite the warnings of Bharat Karnad and Brahma Chellaney.

Anil Kakodkar even investigated the deal; in the end, Indian accepted the deal (I hope not).

In modern times, it is customary for a defeated general to surrender some valuable information to the victorious general in a sign of respect.

It should be noted here that nuclear capability is the sacred animal of modern geopolitics.

After the second world war over the control of Europe, Germans gave yankees their intelligence network in the Soviet Union, while the Japanese gave them the results of various lethal experiments on humans.

The Indians hugely celebrated the end of the nuclear siege, so that, when the yanks’ restriction emerged as a consequence of the deal, the country was in a drunken stupor, addicted to foreign fuel.


The yankee restrictions opened the economy to allow the rest of corporate America to enter. And the country was pillaged ruthlessly, all the men and women were made executives and call centre operators, and all the children were made attendants at McDonalds.

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Post by svinayak »

Manny wrote:I agree, if there is an election today, the BJP would get trounced. People like me who feared the congress party because of their lefty leanings are now comfortable with them because they are nationalist first and foremost. They have come around.

I say bring it on.. let there be an election. Go ahead with the 123 agreement full speed ahead!
Why worry about BJP. Let congress take care of its constituency and Seema Mustafa and come out winning in the elections. Let the people see what policy they had for the last 50 years.
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Post by negi »

BSR Murthy wrote:
Manny wrote:I agree, if there is an election today, the BJP would get trounced. People like me who feared the congress party because of their lefty leanings are now comfortable with them because they are nationalist first and foremost. They have come around.

I say bring it on.. let there be an election. Go ahead with the 123 agreement full speed ahead!
My sentiments exactly. Right on!
All these years I used to wonder who sends the bunch of jokers to the parliament ,I got my answer now. :lol: .
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Post by svinayak »

negi wrote:
All these years I used to wonder who sends the bunch of jokers to the parliament ,I got my answer now. :lol: .
History keeps repeating. When the main discussion in the capitol is only Congress and the commies they want to take up other parties.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

The yankee restrictions opened the economy to allow the rest of corporate America to enter. And the country was pillaged ruthlessly, all the men and women were made executives and call centre operators, and all the children were made attendants at McDonalds.


And the sight of Brinda Karat caused millions to launch ships, boats, airplanes, whatever, to escape. The Face That Launched a Thyausand Points of Light.
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Post by BSR Murthy »

negi wrote:
BSR Murthy wrote: My sentiments exactly. Right on!
All these years I used to wonder who sends the bunch of jokers to the parliament ,I got my answer now. :lol: .
That is really amusing - especially coming from Kolkata!
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Post by geeth »

>>>How about focussing on the answer to one question before you switch topics? Randomly flitting around topics has no focus.

Please apply that rule to yourself too. I have only replied to your question.


>>>It does not matter what I link in, does it.

It does - why on earth you want to link AHWR and imported reactors?

>>>The point is that Indian suppliers of parts to foreign reactors will acquire the skills to manufacture such parts over time. India does not have that capability now, AFAICT.

These are your assumptions isn't it? What makes you feel that the supplier will engage Indian manufactures to supply many or most of the parts for the plants? In Nuclear field it has always been the case of technology denial and it is perpetuated by denial of dual use technology to India. You may be having wet dreams about western suppliers engaging Indians for supply of parts for their plants. I don't.

By the way, how many Indian companies are engaged by Russians for Kudamkulam plants?

For a conventional plant like Dhabol, the supplier could stop restart of the plant by pulling out few PCB cards.


>>>If you see the reports of the kind of deals the GoI is trying to strike with the suppliers, India will need to have the ability to create its own supplies in case of sanctions.

I have not understood what you are trying to say. If you are saying that India is TRYING to get the supplier agree to make majority of the parts made in India by the Indians, I wish them good luck. We shall talk after their TRYING comes to fruition.

>>>Did you bother to read the news w.r.t. what kind of deals the GoI is trying to strike, or do you just prefer to grab your talking points out of thin air?

Instead of bothering me with your vague questions, spell out what kind of deals GOI is TRYING to strike. And don't get too excited about about someone TRYING to do something. I too was very excited when GOI was TRYING to get so many things from unkeel..After months of negotiations, I am not all that excited at present about the whole thing.

>>>Of course, it is a tedious and long process. What do you expect?

What do you expect? India should always go through tedious and long processes onleee?

>>>Once a mythical "deal" is signed, the world changes overnight?
India and US have a lot of mutual suspicions that may or may not be overcome -- this deal tries to make the way to overcome such suspicions, and if either side tries any funny stunts, you can be assured that India and US will walk away from each other....but both of them have a lot to lose if they do so.

Ah! now you are telling some half truths. As long as Unkeel is only a supplier, they stand to lose very little. India as a buyer have a lot to lose.


>>>It is the manufacturing knowledge that is going to save our butts in case of sanctions etc. The important thing is to gain the capability to manufacture hi-tech components in the shortest possible time, so that we become immune to sanctions -- in fact, sanctions will only make us stronger, as it has in the past.

Tell me how we will be able to know and make everything about an imported plant? Why do people guard their design secrets then? Extending logic, we should be able to make GE 404 engine by now, since few of them are already fitted in LCAs.


>>>There is no risk-free venture, no?

No there are not. As long as the risk is manageable, it is fine.

>>>Taking calculated risks is the name of the game --

yeah, and ensure the calculations don't go hayware..

>>>the calculated risk that MMS and co seem to be taking is that an energy supply surge in the next decade, while India has a huge young population, will kick up India's global competitiveness and also provide it with mechanisms to up the ante with China.

As I said before, the nuclear deal in its present stage may not yield results for a decade or so. Hence it may not contribute anything useful for the energy supply surge of the next decade.


>>> If this deal falls through, nothing happens --- we will have a few more rotting nuclear plants in addition to the rotting dams and hydroelectric plants and rotting imported machinery....nothing to worry about, we are like that onlee.

Why bother then?


>>>The point was about the end results of the Tarapur sanctions -- did India improve its indigenous capability or lose it?

India had definitely improved its indigenous capability. Buth then, we were already on course with our indigenous 3 stage programme. Lack of funds was a major impediment for dramatic progress in Nuclear field in 60's and 70's.

>>>You are pretending it is the latter by claiming that another Tarapur would make India weaker --- I am saying that is not true. Indians have shown themselves to be no pushovers when placed under pressure.

Ahem, you mean Indians need to be screwed once again by the Americans to bring out the indigenisation skills?

We already have suffered by the previous deal which appeared good atleast on paper. Why should we get into another 'good deal' and get screwed again?

>>>Really. Them and which army?

Same one which forced the Iran vote.

>>> No one can force India to hand over anything --

You are living in some other world. Continue dreaming there.

>>> remember, possession is 9/10s of the law.

Rest 1/10 could be your balls, which pains the most..what is the use in having 9/10 then?

>>>We have only signed over our promised "voluntary" intent of not testing in the future --- if we break the promise they can demand we return stuff. Doesn't mean they can enforce that demand -- all the additional safeguards etc. etc. are to take care of that boundary condition.

FOCUS on what you are talking.


>>>Any eventuality is possible if do not guard against it. So the apparent contradiction you see in my statement is only because you think that India not have any responsibility other than sign up for the 123 and then while Indians sit idly on their asses waiting for all the wealth and prosperity to float in, America would be powerless to play games because they "promised not to do so in the 123". Guess what? American will always play its power games as long as it can project power across the globe, defending India against their interference is something we have to learn.

That appears to be garbage to me. Again, FOCUS.

>>>Why should we bypass the americans? Why wouldn't we follow a strategy of diversification of suppliers along with ensuring that the IAEA/NSG rules are NOT more restrictive than 123 -- if it is, India must walk away from 123......But we are not there yet, since those negotiations are yet to be completed.

So, we talk afterwards.
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Post by negi »

BSR Murthy wrote: That is really amusing - especially coming from Kolkata!
I am not from Kolkata (yes was there for a year and a half ) and even if I were from Kol how does it matter ?.Most of the BRfites are not even in India so going by your logic should I label all of em as Unkil's agents ?I am afraid but your remark seems to paint every one with the same brush.
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Post by Rye »

geeth wrote:


It does - why on earth you want to link AHWR and imported reactors?
If AHWR is to be commercialized on a big scale, India needs to have the ability to manufacture what's needed. That is why.

The civilian and non-civilian programs are separated, and India is not going to get any dual-use items for the non civilian program.

Before frothing at the mouth, at least get the frigging facts right. :evil:

YOU are demanding that I focus, eh? :lol: Very funny.
These are your assumptions isn't it? What makes you feel that the supplier will engage Indian manufactures to supply many or most of the parts for the plants?
Read about the kind of terms the GoI is working on in the JVs -- that is why I am making the assumption.

In Nuclear field it has always been the case of technology denial and it is perpetuated by denial of dual use technology to India. You may be having wet dreams about western suppliers engaging Indians for supply of parts for their plants. I don't.
123 is not supposed to assist India's strategic program in any anyway, only the civilian program. So tech for the civilian program will be the onnly ones allowed.
By the way, how many Indian companies are engaged by Russians for Kudamkulam plants?
Indian companies do not yet have a profit motive to be engaged in that business...that needs to happen before Indian companies willingly try to make money off this business.

I have not understood what you are trying to say. If you are saying that India is TRYING to get the supplier agree to make majority of the parts made in India by the Indians
Do a google on JVs with foreign nuke companies. If you can't follow this thread and keep up with the news posted, you are doomed to ask the same questions over and over. Catch up on the nuke thread archives -- the past 3-4 of them.

You are just rehashing old stuff. Yawn.

the goodness/badness of this deal once we know what the IAEA/NSG rules look like. That can go either way, and if they are going to suck, then all of this chest-beating and wailing is a little pointless because we can cross the bridge when we come to it, etc.
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Post by BSR Murthy »

negi wrote:
BSR Murthy wrote: That is really amusing - especially coming from Kolkata!
I am not from Kolkata (yes was there for a year and a half ) and even if I were from Kol how does it matter ?.Most of the BRfites are not even in India so going by your logic should I label all of em as Unkil's agents ?I am afraid but your remark seems to paint every one with the same brush.
I am not painting anybody, just reflecting on the irony of a post emanating from Kolkata waxing eloquent about the electorate. However, your post seems to imply that views like mine explain why the jokers get elected to the parliament - that on the other hand is insulting one's intelligence indeed. In any event, I make my electoral decisions based on issues that I think are in the nation's interest. I am not wedded to any single party.
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Post by Baljeet »

enqyoob wrote:Also, hasn't this whole discussion gone back into desi internal politics? 8)
Enq
I agree. United We Fall, Divided We Stand. Mera Bharat Confuzed.
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Post by svinayak »

Baljeet wrote:
I agree. United We Fall, Divided We Stand. Mera Bharat Confuzed.
Why not this when the Hyde Act was being debated. where was the unity. Why nobody was complaining when the main component of the deal was debated.
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Post by geeth »

>>>If AHWR is to be commercialized on a big scale, India needs to have the ability to manufacture what's needed. That is why.

As though India doesn't have the ability to manufacture what is needed for its indigenous programme...

>>>The civilian and non-civilian programs are separated, and India is not going to get any dual-use items for the non civilian program.

Do you understand what does denial of dual use item means? if you don't know, here it is - a Dual use item is denied for the CIVILIAN programme, because it might also find application in military programme. So India is not going to get any dual use item for its military programme. And it is denied for the civilian programme as well.

>>>Before frothing at the mouth, at least get the frigging facts right. Evil or Very Mad

Did you get the frigging facts right, atleast now? if yes, stop frothing.

>>>YOU are demanding that I focus, eh? Laughing Very funny.

You are feeling funny because of your ignorance.. I can't help it.

>>>Read about the kind of terms the GoI is working on in the JVs -- that is why I am making the assumption.

Talk about things when something sewn. Don't get worked up till then.


>>>123 is not supposed to assist India's strategic program in any anyway, only the civilian program. So tech for the civilian program will be the onnly ones allowed.

Again, it shows your ignorance about dual use technology.

>>>Indian companies do not yet have a profit motive to be engaged in that business...that needs to happen before Indian companies willingly try to make money off this business.

L&T is a very profitable Indian Company and is one of the Indian companies neck deep in supply of components for Nuclear Industry In India.


>>>Do a google on JVs with foreign nuke companies. If you can't follow this thread and keep up with the news posted, you are doomed to ask the same questions over and over. Catch up on the nuke thread archives -- the past 3-4 of them.

Read above

>>>You are just rehashing old stuff. Yawn.

Oooooh! you bring in so much of fresh air..

>>>the goodness/badness of this deal once we know what the IAEA/NSG rules look like. That can go either way, and if they are going to suck, then all of this chest-beating and wailing is a little pointless because we can cross the bridge when we come to it, etc. :roll:

So, you weren't even sure of what you were talking..
Rye
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Post by Rye »

Geeth wrote:
So, you weren't even sure of what you were talking..
This is not a pissing contest, dumbass. If you have some clues to share with everyone, please do, else please continue with your whining. Sorry to interrupt.

You whined about dual use without knowing what the 123 was all about separation of facilities and the intention for such separation. Enough said.

Last post to you. Other than gratuitous insults and ignorant whining, you have nothing interesting to say.
geeth
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Post by geeth »

>>>IF it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.......

Then it must be M/Nanny Duck :P
geeth
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Post by geeth »

>>>This is not a pissing contest, dumbass.

Then what was it that you were doing till now?

If you want to engage in name calling, do it with your pop
Rye
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Post by Rye »

EB tactic #22: When ignorance and idiocy is exposed, pretend that the other party was not following "proper" tactics.
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