India Nuclear News & Discussion - 24 August 2007

negi
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Postby negi » 26 Aug 2007 22:29

BSR Murthy wrote:I am not painting anybody, just reflecting on the irony of a post emanating from Kolkata waxing eloquent about the electorate.

The political situation in Kolkata is not any different from that of states in south.Communists remain in power in WB for the same reason as in Kerala .Same is the case DMK and AIADMK in TN. Oh btw as for me Kangreez == Commies (it is amusing that how people on forum have suddenly shifted goal posts for the love of the BUM).

Common man has same challenges to face and daily chores to complete whether he/she be from Kol or Chennai so their views about the GOI and its policies are independent of the ruling party in state.


However, your post seems to imply that views like mine explain why the jokers get elected to the parliament - that on the other hand is insulting one's intelligence indeed.

Infact I was just pointing out at how Kangreez and co manage to win over the electorate with a stray development such as ,this despite having commited numerous blunders that outweigh all the good that they have done till date.


In any event, I make my electoral decisions based on issues that I think are in the nation's interest. I am not wedded to any single party.

Nice thoughts, and appropriate too if national interest==nuclear deal.But the fact is there are too many and infact more important issues wrt National interests that need to be addressed apart from the N deal .

--my apologies to the members for derailing the thread .Having said that if Murthy saar wishes to continue discussion on this then we may take this to Indian Interests thread--

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Re: Another nice piece by Tavleen Singh

Postby kshirin » 26 Aug 2007 22:35

[quote="BSR Murthy"]http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/212660.html

Congress and the Commissar

Tavleen Singh

Posted online: Sunday, August 26, 2007 at 0000 hrs IST


Let him state clearly that a closer strategic and commercial relationship with the United States is in India’s national interest and if the Marxists and sundry other political parties think otherwise, then let them put their case before voters in the next election and see what happens.

As every poll indicates, the average Indian thinks friendship with the United States is a good thing and a very large number think the nuclear deal is in India’s national interest. On my travels these days, I constantly run into people who harangue me for not writing strongly enough against those ‘Chinese agents’. And it delights me to inform you that the Hindi press is currently filled with articles that revile Commissar Karat and his comrades for their inordinate fondness for China. The sense I get of the public mood is that our communist parties are not going to get enough seats to bully whichever government comes to power after the next general election.

I agree that we have to be very cautious re China and on the whole welcomed the partnership with the West. But my US based Uncle paints n alarming picture (he is over 70 now and used to urge me to settle there about 20 years ago) of the decline there. He said apart from the social atomisation - school systems are shot to pieces, there is no intellectual class, manufacturing is confined to the military industrial complex, and the country is set for precipitous decline, and we Indians think everyhting's swell because we are in the top 1% or whatever. That got me thinking - hope we are not tying ourselves to a white elephant. Does any BR-ite care to discuss this?

Perhaps it would b better to focus on our 10% growth and push our economic interests incrementally in those areas of the world which welcome it?

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Postby Calvin » 26 Aug 2007 22:40

How are we tying ourselves to the US? What, if anything, keeps us from pursuing our economic interests elsewhere in the world?

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Re: Another nice piece by Tavleen Singh

Postby svinayak » 26 Aug 2007 22:41

kshirin wrote: But my US based Uncle paints n alarming picture (he is over 70 now and used to urge me to settle there about 20 years ago) of the decline there. He said apart from the social atomisation - school systems are shot to pieces, there is no intellectual class, manufacturing is confined to the military industrial complex, and the country is set for precipitous decline, and we Indians think everyhting's swell because we are in the top 1% or whatever. That got me thinking - hope we are not tying ourselves to a white elephant. Does any BR-ite care to discuss this?


It was discussed before. Demographic factor is an important part of the changes described by you

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123

Postby joshvajohn » 26 Aug 2007 22:55

If I understand correctly it how India and US interpret the version respectively. If I understand it the agreement allows it to be interpreted in two ways both agreeing to their own national demands and legal systems. I mean, for India in case if they test a nuclear bomb the U S will stop supplying the Uranium. It will be decided because their law does not allow it. But then it may allow in case India convince US congress on the basis of the security issue. But this is debatable but US will not stop other suppliers to India in case others do not find the test as a problem.

For India it means that in case of security issues and also for their nuclear arms race if they test another one then it means they risk their energy programme and the supply of enriched Ur. In this way it does not take away the right of India to test a nuclear bomb. May be at one stage if India does need a higher version of the tests US may share such information and help in developing a nuclear technology itself.

I think for CPM not allowing this does mean that they did not understand somehow they did not want to understand. That means someone must have been funded heavily to stop this agreement (possibly the top ones) and to support a campaign against it. Besides this it is not an ideological fight at all as I mentioned in my previous one China worked closely with US and is still so in many missile and other technologies.

It is also part of the business to need more energy for the industries. The Young Marxian thinkers should throw all these old styled marxian leaders and make it a dynamic group of thinkers and social transformers. It is time for the Indian Government to bring those guys within CPM who are open to these agreements and make them chair or something of a group and thus bring a common statement in favour of 123 agreement and make sure that CPM agrees with it rather than pausing the agreement.

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Postby JCage » 26 Aug 2007 22:56

Re:kshirin

Indians anywhere will b*tch and whine. Its in our genes.
Two xyz thousand years back, when Ram Rajya was going on (or whatever Shri Advani says)- I am sure there were a bunch of 70 year olds sitting and debating how the macroeconomics of Ayodhya were shot to pieces and things were really really bad. Etc.
I am sure that if I survive to 70, I will be sitting and cribbing as well.

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Postby Rye » 26 Aug 2007 22:59

joshvajohn wrote:
It is time for the Indian Government to bring those guys within CPM who are open to these agreements and make them chair or something of a group and thus bring a common statement in favour of 123 agreement and make sure that CPM agrees with it rather than pausing the agreement.


I think Musharraf/USA is trying something like this wr.t. pakistani political parties :) -- Indian political parties should choose their own leaders that reflect the true ideology of the party and then go face the electorate and then let their karma run over their dogma.

the CPI(M) guys should continue to be true to their ideology and make the kind of statements they have been making.

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Postby Calvin » 26 Aug 2007 23:03

It is time for the Indian Government to bring those guys within CPM who are open to these agreements and make them chair or something of a group and thus bring a common statement in favour of 123 agreement and make sure that CPM agrees with it rather than pausing the agreement


Why should they do this, when they can just as easily implement the agreement, and show the CPM up as puppets of their Chinese masters.

I mean, for India in case if they test a nuclear bomb the U S will stop supplying the Uranium. It will be decided because their law does not allow it. But then it may allow in case India convince US congress on the basis of the security issue.


If there is an Indian test, US supply of uranium will stop.

However, the reality is that India may never purchase uranium from the US. The purpose of the agreement is to legitimize NSG sales to India. So, as long as Australia, Canada, Kazhakstan, South Africa, Namibia, Brazil, or Uzbekistan and Niger are willing to sell to India, the US Law is irrelevant. This is why the side agreement that the US will not stand in the way of alternative guaranteed suppliers is so important. As for the other, which is equipment, India can buy from anyone other than the US, and even with the US, just look at Tarapur - no one is going to send Marines in to reclaim installed equipment.

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Postby kshirin » 26 Aug 2007 23:31

JCage and Acharya, are we hitching ourselves to a dying/doomed horse? Are we taking on an albatross around our neck? Should I stop with the cliches and come to the point? Will it make geopolitical strategic sense to have the US on our side in 10 years?

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Postby nkumar » 26 Aug 2007 23:31

SSridhar, I am inclined to believe what DAE says but final word has to come from GoI as far as placing future civilian FBRs under safeguards. Surprisingly, after Burns statement that all future FBRs will be under safeguards, I have not heard anything from GoI. Neither Burns has clarified his statement nor GoI has. If you have heard anything from GoI, please give me the link. I will be happy to hear from GoI that only civilian FBRs (not all FBRs) will be under safeguards.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 26 Aug 2007 23:46

Will it make geopolitical strategic sense to have the US on our side in 10 years?


As compared to:

1. Russia (which we will anyway try to hold on to on our side)
2. Europe - but minus American influence ? We tried that from circa 14xx to 1947...
3. Africa? Seems like Africa can only go upward... so good stock to buy, hey?
4. UmmahStan? (We tried -in Rabat 1960s - claiming to be a halal Islamic Country :roll: Our representative had to stand outside the door as Kaffirs and haraam Kaffir-representatives had to )

5. South America? See recent success of CBI in Argentina? :roll:

6. China? We can be the Carrier of China

6. NO ONE?

7. Antarctica? Probably a lot of U and Pu under the ice there, it looks just like Ladakh.

Excuse #3491: America Is In Decline. The Flood Is Imminent. Repent, Ye Sinners!
8)

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Postby kshirin » 27 Aug 2007 01:11

enqyoob wrote:
Will it make geopolitical strategic sense to have the US on our side in 10 years?


As compared to:

1. Russia (which we will anyway try to hold on to on our side)
2. Europe - but minus American influence ? We tried that from circa 14xx to 1947...
3. Africa? Seems like Africa can only go upward... so good stock to buy, hey?
4. UmmahStan? (We tried -in Rabat 1960s - claiming to be a halal Islamic Country :roll: Our representative had to stand outside the door as Kaffirs and haraam Kaffir-representatives had to )

5. South America? See recent success of CBI in Argentina? :roll:

6. China? We can be the Carrier of China

6. NO ONE?

7. Antarctica? Probably a lot of U and Pu under the ice there, it looks just like Ladakh.

Excuse #3491: America Is In Decline. The Flood Is Imminent. Repent, Ye Sinners!
8)


Ok, your posts always make us laugh, but then we should have a Strategy to deal with their Decline, and Arrest it, otherwise the resources there will then be Gobbled up by China/Russia and Qatar through sovereign wealth funds and the like. I suggest we send a few surplus million Indians to take over the US and UK, their financial sectors etc incidentally making them happier nations (saving families for e.g. and mainstreaming Bollywood), and use their resources to create a Global Indian Empire a la Asokan Empire with hopefully More Lasting Results, reversing Iraq, and climate change all at one go. Just thought this up, in repsonse to the bleak alternatives.
Incidentally, should we write Russia off, they're brainy, I've never seen anything like their jet-fighters in action, they could convert oil wealth into more robust assets, some Europeans and the US sure act as if they are scared of Russian potential. Taiwanese wondering why we don't protest at russian arms sales to China.

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Postby mandrake » 27 Aug 2007 01:27

Can someone please put some points on this? just wanna know this..

The series of tests ran by the N5 before the stop had nothing to do with validating designs. They were to determine how old can a bomb get before it's completely useless.


So how do we know how old is our arsenal before they are useless?

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Postby Gerard » 27 Aug 2007 01:56

Joey.. one of the 1998 Pokhran tests was of a device from the stockpile..

Warheads can be remanufactured..
The firing systems, the chemical explosives etc can be replaced. The Tritium needs to be replaced. The Pu pits can 'reprocessed' just like spent fuel and new pits cast and machined.

See

Plutonium: Aging Mechanisms and Weapon Pit Lifetime Assessment

US Weapons Plutonium aging gracefully

And the French tests were very much about validating designs. The French president also ordered a full yield test of their latest warhead. The Chinese are thought to have tested one of their W88 clones.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 27 Aug 2007 02:26

kshirinji: Thanx for taking that in the sporting fashion that was intended. My serious objection to the GOI taking forever to decide on the IAEA/NSG /123 deals is captured quite well by the story of The Milkmaid and The Pot of Milk:

Which ends:

Seeing how much money I will have, a cow and her calf,
Whom I will see leap about in the midst of a herd?
Perrette, as she thought this, leaps also, carried away:
The milk falls; goodbye calf, cow, pig, brood of chickens.


When I learned it, the story was different. The milkmaid had become rich beyond belief, and this cute rich hunk in a red BMW740i comes up and tries to propose to her, and she says:
Hah!
like Mumtaz in "Roti", and tosses her head haughtily.

Same end result, though. Here we are, with 400 million way below the poverty line, blinking our way through power cuts on potholed roads in towns where there is not a single decent public restroom, with factories that are straight out of Dante's "Inferno" with children slaving away for a few paise to stave off starvation... where the school dropout rate is so bad we don't count it, because most of us (yes!!) can't count past 5 ... where 100,000 villages have no electricity... where women have to walk miles in the sun every day carrying a pot of water - if the well where they draw it isn't dry or poisoned and no one rapes or kills them for coming near it...

We have a few people who go to school for 20 years and get college degrees - to manage to get jobs as telephone clerks in mass marketing or "customer service" and get paid 1/4 of what their counterparts in the Master Nations, who can barely read and write, would make. And think this is the height of Middle Class career success. And even these jobs depend entirely on whether the economy is chugging or fa*ting in those distant lands, and whether some Joe Bubba manages to keep paying his house payment on time.

After 40 years of struggling, our scientists and engineers and diplomats, with a LOT of help from NRIs, have finally managed to extract an unbelievably fair deal that gives us an open door to accelerate through and grab that ladder to the First World, after 40 years of having those doors slammed on our noses.

Instead of racing with all the speed and smarts at our disposal, and grabbing on to that one rung on the ladder that we can reach , here we are debating whether we should buy America and all the rest of the world, or save the trouble and just go take them over.....

U c y I think of the Milkmaid Story? I do pray that this does not end that way. Hubris and greed most usually do, though.

For moiself, life has not been full of choices between rivers of gold here and palaces there, and Mercedeses in between. I have grown up leaping for that one chance, through the narrowest of closing gates, just in the nick of time, by the Grace of the Almighty. I agree that it takes a lot of thought to distinguish between the con and the real sincere offer, but once u decide, there is no time to wallow about, and no ethics in demanding more than one deserves.

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Postby mandrake » 27 Aug 2007 02:30

Thanks gerard one more question, If we are to do MIRV are there anything new warhead design or RV design we would need? Or the MK3 jetissoned on a post boost vehicle would do the system? Does MIRV calls for different type of warhead/RV ? or just the type of RV's we have (MK3's) jetissoned on a post boost vehicle?

Also which of our device was from older stockpile?

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Postby BSR Murthy » 27 Aug 2007 02:46

enqyoob wrote:
Same end result, though. Here we are, with 400 million way below the poverty line, blinking our way through power cuts on potholed roads in towns where there is not a single decent public restroom, with factories that are straight out of Dante's "Inferno" with children slaving away for a few paise to stave off starvation... where the school dropout rate is so bad we don't count it, because most of us (yes!!) can't count past 5 ... where 100,000 villages have no electricity... where women have to walk miles in the sun every day carrying a pot of water - if the well where they draw it isn't dry or poisoned and no one rapes or kills them for coming near it...

We have a few people who go to school for 20 years and get college degrees - to manage to get jobs as telephone clerks in mass marketing or "customer service" and get paid 1/4 of what their counterparts in the Master Nations, who can barely read and write, would make. And think this is the height of Middle Class career success. And even these jobs depend entirely on whether the economy is chugging or fa*ting in those distant lands, and whether some Joe Bubba manages to keep paying his house payment on time.

After 40 years of struggling, our scientists and engineers and diplomats, with a LOT of help from NRIs, have finally managed to extract an unbelievably fair deal that gives us an open door to accelerate through and grab that ladder to the First World, after 40 years of having those doors slammed on our noses.

Instead of racing with all the speed and smarts at our disposal, and grabbing on to that one rung on the ladder that we can reach , here we are debating whether we should buy America and all the rest of the world, or save the trouble and just go take them over.....

U c y I think of the Milkmaid Story? I do pray that this does not end that way. Hubris and greed most usually do, though.

For moiself, life has not been full of choices between rivers of gold here and palaces there, and Mercedeses in between. I have grown up leaping for that one chance, through the narrowest of closing gates, just in the nick of time, by the Grace of the Almighty. I agree that it takes a lot of thought to distinguish between the con and the real sincere offer, but once u decide, there is no time to wallow about, and no ethics in demanding more than one deserves.


N^3, that was a terrific summary of the situation. My hats off to you! I share the same anxiety and fear we somehow let go of this wonderful opportunity.

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Postby Sparsh » 27 Aug 2007 02:46

Joey,

S2 was the older device from the existing stockpile.

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Postby ldev » 27 Aug 2007 03:31

enqyoob wrote:Instead of racing with all the speed and smarts at our disposal, and grabbing on to that one rung on the ladder that we can reach , here we are debating whether we should buy America and all the rest of the world, or save the trouble and just go take them over.....


And the tragedy is that the in most instances the people who talk the most about sovereignity and sell-out for India will have no qualms about jumping up and transplanting themselves to the US. Sell out does not come into the picture when it comes to fulfilling personal objectives, financial or otherwise. This noble sentiment only rears its head when the "rest of India" comes into the picture. Only then does love of the matrabhumi occur.

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Postby Sparsh » 27 Aug 2007 04:11

I almost missed this: An EB, a fan of Homer no less, just called KS a traitor in the previous thread.

Just for curiosity's sake, anyone remaining that hasn't been called a traitor or sellout yet?

As I have said once before, kaisee chutyagiri hai yeh?

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Postby Gerard » 27 Aug 2007 04:33

joey wrote: If we are to do MIRV are there anything new warhead design or RV design we would need?


Certainly a new RV would be needed for a MIRVed missile. India routinely tests RVs when it tests missiles. No problem there.

A new warhead is another matter... the most sophisticated US warhead, the W88 uses a prolate primary and a spherical secondary, unlike the spherical primary and cylindrical secondary in older warheads. This allows a much smaller RV to be used and more RVs to be mounted on the bus: the Trident 2 carries 8 RVs.

This cutting edge design has caused problems in the past. Some claim that the W76's radiation case is far too thin; that, as the primary bombards it with radiation and it ages, it will not survive detonation, causing the secondary to fizzle. Planned reliability tests of the W76 were shelved due to the 1992 test moratorium.

Now that the US no longer needs to mount a dozen RVs on top a missile, its RRW (reliable replacement warhead) will be bigger, thicker and heavier than the W76 or W88. It will use a more insensitive explosive. The neutron reflector will not be made of Beryllium. It will be more resistant to accidents, tampering and less prone to fizzle (or so the designers hope). When the B61 design was modified to make the W80, a new insensitive explosive was used. In production versions, there was a problem with the explosive and a test resulted in a fizzle. It took a year to resume production.

Arun_S's photo-analysis of the shakti-1 shows that it should be able to fit inside a RV that could be mounted, 3 to an Agni-3 missile.

Also which of our device was from older stockpile?


The unboosted fission device - Shakti-2
In 1998 Mark Hibbs (who has been allowed inside Dhruva in the past) was reportedly told by a BARC insider that, since 1974 to then, India had machined around 25 Plutonium pits. According to Hibbs
The cores are spherically shaped for use in implosion nuclear bombs. Most or all of the cores are identical or very similar to that exploded by India in 1974 at the Pokaran test site. The cores were manufactured at BARC for a "reference design" which is very close or identical to that tested in 1974.

This plutonium weapon design, with at most minor modifications, was apparently re-tested at Pokaran last month, in an effort to get more information about it which could be used as a data base in case India follows through on its announced intention to agree to a test ban.

The "reference design" would be a "medium-sized" nuclear bomb, smaller than a bomb India tested last month which used at least a small amount of thermonuclear material. As has been widely reported, India also tested several much smaller devices last month.

The Department of Atomic Energy (DAE), which makes India's plutonium, and the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO), are now analyzing the results of India's May test series. Depending on the results, India may recast the plutonium bomb cores it has already made for the "reference design" bomb and use the metal for production of the newer, freshly-tested devices.
Last edited by Gerard on 27 Aug 2007 05:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Tilak » 27 Aug 2007 04:34

Sparsh wrote:An EB


Well, would people be comfortable with the word "EP" as in "Eveready Pussy" [ie. Billi chaap batteries] for people who are ~percieved to want the deal at any cost, then ?. Easy to brand... considering how vaguely/obliquely the words are being used.

However, I 400% agree with the rest of your message..

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Postby vina » 27 Aug 2007 05:14

enqyoob wrote:After 40 years of struggling, our scientists and engineers and diplomats, with a LOT of help from NRIs, have finally managed to extract an unbelievably fair deal that gives us an open door to accelerate through and grab that ladder to the First World, after 40 years of having those doors slammed on our noses.

Instead of racing with all the speed and smarts at our disposal, and grabbing on to that one rung on the ladder that we can reach , here we are debating whether we should buy America and all the rest of the world, or save the trouble and just go take them over.....


Diyar N^3 Saar,
There is an Opinion "leader" article in the Al-Hundi , not by Red N. Ram, but by his brother Pink N. Ravi.. titled Will the triump turn into a tragedy?.
Now.. all of us thought that CPI and CPI-(M) were Communist Party of India (with the -M for marixist) or rather. Chinese Poodles in India (Iditots(I) and Morons (M)) . But it actually seems that we were all wrong. They actually stand for Communist Party of Iran (Idiots (I) and Morons (M)) .

The primary leftist objection to the Hyde act seems The to be the point about co-operation against Iran's nuke program! The dear comrades seem to be putting Iran's national interest, over India's. It is no way in India's interest to have another unstable bearded Ayatollah /Mullah led (or otherwise) led nuke power that seems on destabilizing its immediate and near neighborhood. The Iranians too voted against India after the 1998 tests and of course liberally helped themselves to Birader A.Q Khan's Nukelear-e-WalMart. Any possible Iranian nook mijjile while directly threateaning Isreal in the west, will have similar ranges to target India in the east .

The vote against Iran by India in the IAEA seems to have gone down very badly with Al-Commie biraders. No wonder with such irrational and un-concedable demands based largely on JNU-e-HotAir, the govt of the day is digging in! This opposition by Al-Commies is not about India or India's interests, but about Iran and Panda and their interests! .

Kudos to MMS to fighting it out. He and the Kangress are the only ones who are at present fighting against such Al-Commie stupidity and rank treachery.

BJP seems to want to join the commies in screwing India,just to pursue this deal.. Time for the RSS to step in and rap the BJP after the BJP has made all the sound and noise and milked it for all the political opposition that it is worth it and make them fall in line, just like the earlier instances (there was one quite recently I dont remember which exactly.. maybe it was the Iran IAEA vote?) in "national" interest.. With that the Mr and Mrs Karat's the deal does not have "majority" parliament support line would evaporate. Let us see what spin they put on it after that. It is only about the left's "My way or Highway" or in Red N. Ram's words of MMS "Iran-MUST-have-nooks-or-we-kill-India's-Nook-power-and-123" that this hullabullo is all about.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 27 Aug 2007 05:40

Thanks, vina. That makes it
Excuse #3493:

"Iran-MUST-have-nooks-or-we-kill-India's-Nook-power-and-123"
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Shows the Commies have seen that Excuses #0 - 3492 got :rotfl: by the people. The EBs are just a bit slow getting there... :roll:

As I hear it, they are building up to showing that India's Thorium deposits are going to be washed away anyhow in the next 5 years, because the deepening of the SSC canal by THREE METERS will let all the Kundalini Energy of the tsunami through, to zip through the Indian Ocean (no, it isn't smart enough to come around SL by itself, navigate using the lighthouse at Tootukudi, and swing around like a Zaheer Khan inswinger, bounce off the Lakshadweep reef, and smash into Kerala. So I wonder what happens when the phoren phyuell supply is also stopped. No matter.

Bhavitavyam Bhavedeva. All is Maya. We are like that onlee.
*****************************************************

But I wish they would agitate to put up a sea wall along the Kollam coast, using all those megatons of coal ash generated by India's non-nuclear, indigenous power plants of the future. Then the tsunami would bounce off the sea wall and reflect out to sea, and since they expect the tsunami to behave like an EB, it won't get damped at all, and will go slam Karachi, and run on straight through RYK and drown Kahuta and Islamaintbad. Win-win.

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Postby sraj » 27 Aug 2007 05:42

Ties with US in our national interest, deal OK if home law changed: Advani
[quote]HYDERABAD, AUGUST 26: In a dramatic turnaround, the BJP today distanced itself from the Left over the Indo-US nuclear deal with Leader of Opposition L K Advani saying that his party has no objection to the 123 Agreement if the government amends the Indian Atomic Energy Act to ensure strategic independence and non-hindrance in reactor fuel supplies.

Speaking to The Indian Express while visiting the blast sites in Hyderabad, Advani said: “It is anti-Americanism which propels the Left to oppose a nuclear ship docked at Chennai port. So far as the BJP is concerned, and it is in national interest that we have no objection to a strategic partnership with the US. This includes the forthcoming joint naval exercises.â€

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Postby BSR Murthy » 27 Aug 2007 05:50

Ties with US in our national interest, deal OK if home law changed: Advani
HYDERABAD, AUGUST 26: In a dramatic turnaround, the BJP today distanced itself from the Left over the Indo-US nuclear deal with Leader of Opposition L K Advani saying that his party has no objection to the 123 Agreement if the government amends the Indian Atomic Energy Act to ensure strategic independence and non-hindrance in reactor fuel supplies.


Glad to hear about BJP's "turnaround".

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Postby Arun_S » 27 Aug 2007 05:56

Gerard wrote: Arun_S's photo-analysis of the shakti-1 shows that it should be able to fit inside a RV that could be mounted, 3 to an Agni-3 missile.


Don't trust Yindu photo-analysis, that is for "sammohan" (hypnotize). :twisted:. Try to re-arrange the Lego blocks; doing is believing.

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Postby vsudhir » 27 Aug 2007 06:02

sraj wrote:Ties with US in our national interest, deal OK if home law changed: Advani
HYDERABAD, AUGUST 26: In a dramatic turnaround, the BJP today distanced itself from the Left over the Indo-US nuclear deal with Leader of Opposition L K Advani saying that his party has no objection to the 123 Agreement if the government amends the Indian Atomic Energy Act to ensure strategic independence and non-hindrance in reactor fuel supplies.


Well thats one less shtick the pro-deal-ites (delights?) can now use to mock anti-dealights with.

The yindoo nay-shun-list bhajpa saw the light at the end of half carat's tonsils, figured the commies won't/can't/shan't walk the talk and that ze UPA sarkar is gonna live jusslike vajpie sarkar did, and did the rite thing.

Could it be that the bhajpa all along in support of the 123, not wanting to sink the deal when push came to shove and all this ruckus in parliament was just a sham-show? Hard to say but I sure do hope so.

In any case, good that bhajpa has moved to reclaim the mantle of a responsible opposition that puts India's interests before the GOI's assurances. Bravo and welcome back.

JMTs and all that.

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Postby BSR Murthy » 27 Aug 2007 06:07

url

Holding back tantamount to hara-kiri

On Saturday, CPI general secretary A B Bardhan said it was for the government to decide whether it wanted to commit Sati. Many would feel that it’s dumping what by all account is a favourable deal which will be the real act of hara-kiri.

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Postby Sparsh » 27 Aug 2007 06:10

Tilak,

Tilak wrote:Well, would people be comfortable with the word "EP" as in "Eveready Pussy" [ie. Billi chaap batteries] for people who are ~percieved to want the deal at any cost, then ?. Easy to brand... considering how vaguely/obliquely the words are being used.


Name one person who has advocated or can even remotely be perceived to have advocated the deal at any cost line. Name just one.

"EB" is a term of ridicule. Alleging that KS is a spy working for a foreign government is something that deserves to be ridiculed and then some.

This is what blind and knee-jerk opposition to the deal without an iota of though has been reduced to: A Pavlovian labeling of anyone and everyone as a traitor.

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Postby Tilak » 27 Aug 2007 06:10



Game,Set and Match ?, now lets see where the Govt. and other parties stand... Or is it usual "Experts say as the US election draws close, we wont have enough time".. 8)

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Postby Tilak » 27 Aug 2007 06:16

Sparsh wrote:Tilak,

Tilak wrote:Name one person who has advocated or can even remotely be perceived to have advocated the deal at any cost line. Name just one.


You do the honours boss, since you were the one who used "An EB" first, so who are the others ?, as far as my recollection goes the term was being used to refer to people outside the forum as well..

It's a perceptional difference, everybody wants Indias interests to be safeguarded, here. My request, lets stop this... You dont have to reply to the above..
Last edited by Tilak on 27 Aug 2007 06:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby BSR Murthy » 27 Aug 2007 06:19


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Postby SaiK » 27 Aug 2007 06:20

[quote]123 negotiated well: France / Deccan Herald
New Delhi, PTI:
As the government continues to face opposition to the Indo-US nuclear deal on the domestic front, France has hailed the agreement as being a result of very careful, cautious and intelligent negotiations and vowed to support it at IAEA and Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).


Refusing to be drawn into the controversy here over the issue, France believes Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has “very good set of argumentsâ€

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 27 Aug 2007 06:21

AllahoAkbar! Beloveds:

EB MEANS "Energetic Bharatiya"


WHO, i ask u, would not be proud to be so described?

Bharat ka dowdnewala hoom
Bharat ki baat sunaata hoom
8)

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Postby Gerard » 27 Aug 2007 06:22


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Postby Muppalla » 27 Aug 2007 06:23

There is a very high chance that the UPA will not survive now because BJP is supporting the Nuclear deal. Looks to me that the fall of UPA is being expedited.
Last edited by Muppalla on 27 Aug 2007 06:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby BSR Murthy » 27 Aug 2007 06:23

'Hyde Act-like law will not be enacted in India'
27 Aug 2007, 0331 hrs IST,Indrani Bagchi,TNN

SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
NEW DELHI: The government will not go for any law that could be a mirror of the Hyde Act in India. "It would be constitutionally inappropriate," said Kapil Sibal, Union minister for science and technology.

This was a proposal floated by CPM leader Sitaram Yechury and promoted by some sections of the media. Essentially, it said India should pass its own version of the Hyde Act that makes it illegal to move nuclear materials out of the country if it affected the operationalisation of its nuclear reactors.

Obviously, one of the considerations behind the proposal, said sources, was the fact that in India, a domestic law takes precedence over an international treaty. This would prevent the provisions in the Hyde Act, such as the right of return, from coming into play in the event of a break in ties.

But Sibal insisted that according to the US constitution, its "supremacy clause" ensures that an international treaty would be the supreme law of the land. The US supreme court too, he said, has held that when a conflict arises between a valid treaty and a valid act of Congress, the "last expression of sovereign will must control". In this case, the 123 Agreement, which is an international treaty, would triumph over the Hyde Act, which has been a source of concern in India. This makes the reason for the proposed Indian act untenable.

indrani.bagchi@timesgroup.com

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... page-1.cms

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Postby Tilak » 27 Aug 2007 06:26

BSR Murthy wrote:'Hyde Act-like law will not be enacted in India'
27 Aug 2007, 0331 hrs IST,Indrani Bagchi,TNN

SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
NEW DELHI: The government will not go for any law that could be a mirror of the Hyde Act in India. "It would be constitutionally inappropriate," said Kapil Sibal, Union minister for science and technology.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Postby CRamS » 27 Aug 2007 06:35

Muppalla wrote:There is a very high chance that the UPA will not survive now.


I wishes were horses, beggars would fly. I truly hope this UPA govt consisting of cowards, traitors, and Chincom agents is obliterated, and a truly nationalist govt assumes power (of course, the deal can go on). And if this comes about, I hope India will not be betrayed again by another one of those Hajpayee-led motley set of idiots.


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