Indian Nuclear News & Discussion - May-2008

Shankar
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Postby Shankar » 28 May 2008 13:33

you can fool some people some of the time
you can fool some people all the time
but you can never never fool all the people all the time

That is the moral of the story on nuclear deal

The nuke deal from the day one was based on lies and deception and never had even an iota of truth its foundation

The whole episode showed how our so called respected media is sold to the highest bidder -in this case the big industries in both us and india

how most of our politicians without basic knowledge to understand how a light bulb works supported the deal vehemently

But I had faith in the Indian democracy on the inherent intelligence of common people and some political parties who do not always put party over nation or political power over nation

Like it or not it is the communists who have today saved our nation from a military political blunder with their steadfast opposition to the deal

Was talking to a very senior ISRO scientist few weeks back and according to him the "communists today are the only true patriots"

I hope today those in power have realized

- a nation cannot be lied for perpetuity
- all those black cats and bullet proof BMW s and the overseas trips are in the end paid for by those millions of common people on the street most of whom have not seen the inside of an air port and don't even know how a customized embraer jet looks like

no one has the moral legal and political right to trade their security or their children's security on ill conceived ,least understood biased political dogmas

- karnataka election and gujrat elections is just the curtain raiser

in an years time we all hope to see this spineless dynasty and its nakedly psychopathic supporters go to oblivion

BJP /CPM may not be what i really like but as the nuclear deal has shown they are a trillion times better option for the nation that is ours

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Postby Sanatanan » 28 May 2008 16:37

[quote]Cold fusion success in Japan gets warm reception in India

May 27th, 2008 - 12:02 pm
By K.S. Jayaraman
Bangalore, May 27 (IANS)

Researchers in Japan have given a live public demonstration of their cold fusion device, a historic experiment that is likely to revive global interest in this controversial method of energy generation that was earlier debunked as nonsense. A report in the California-based New Energy Times says the tabletop device built by Osaka University physicist Yoshiaki Arata and his associate Yue Chang Zhang continuously generated excess energy in the form of heat and also produced helium particles.

“The demonstration showed their method was highly reproducible,â€

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Postby NRao » 28 May 2008 16:56

The excitement will be doused by reductions in funding by this govt of I!

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Postby NRao » 28 May 2008 17:00

ShauryaT wrote:..................... The Samson option exists and will be used, if needed. ...............


AKA a suicide pact.

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Postby Philip » 28 May 2008 19:07

Ramanna,that was a good one. "Peace in our time"! However,to be fair to the good doctor,a former AEC chief,he has in his article showed that the deal has opposition within and without the Indian nuclear community.His strategy is to make a deal with the IAEA on nuclear safeguards and then obtain from France and Russia what we need,plants and fuel,countries who care little for the US.All they need is some sort of fig leaf from the IAEA to allow them to supply India with what it wants.They will not be worried if we test or not.It is only the US that is trying to stop and rollback our deterrent.He has highlighted the current difficulty that we have with regard to fuel production and that we are far behind Dr.Homi Bhaba's nuclear timetable for us to be self sufficient in thorium technology.

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Postby ramana » 28 May 2008 21:46

Still can anyone confirm that France has technology independent of the US patents on PWRs? IIRC, French PWR technology is based on Westinghouse PWR technology of the 70s and might have some export limitations. Otherwise this is again a show stopper.

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Postby John Snow » 28 May 2008 22:11

Cold Fusion with Dreamweaver is the best for rapid development and deployment.

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Postby abhischekcc » 28 May 2008 22:20

Umrao jaan,

This is not the Oracle-Operator thread. :P

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Postby John Snow » 28 May 2008 22:26

Have you noted the highlighted

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Postby abhischekcc » 28 May 2008 22:49

Birader,

Cold fusion is the ML for database-driven websites.
Dreamweaver is a website construction/management tool.

Both are from macromedia.

I do know the tools I used several years ago.

(Actually I used Director and Flash). :)

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Postby Anujan » 28 May 2008 22:51

A generic article about how nuclear weapons encourage peace, but there is a googly buried inside
10 years on, nuclear shadow promises peace
Economically weaker Pakistan suffered as aid was cut off and sanctions imposed. In a sagacious move, then Indian prime minister A B Vajpayee bailed out Pakistan by importing sugar worth $200 million. :eek:

Is it true ?

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Postby ramana » 28 May 2008 22:56

The great poet Sant Tulsidas has written in his Ramacharit Manas (pg 1073) about Maya and says not to be caught in the parrot trap or the monkey trap. Apparently parrots are caught by a string contraption which flutters and the parrot thinks its bound in the string and refuses to fly away. Monkey trap, we all know thanks to kgoan, where narrow mouthed jar is placed with some grain or mangoes in it. Here the monkey wont let go of the items and is also caught.

The 123 deal and Hyde act are a combination of both the traps. The legal language and vague definitons are the strings to prevent the parrot from flying away. The technology sanctions removal and the promise of fuel is the mango/grains.

So one has to be watchful and realize that as of now its only the US that has moved from its hardline position of NNPA of 1978 vis a vis India. India is still free and can fly away and should. One should not associate with folks who set traps.

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Postby John Snow » 28 May 2008 23:10

sorry I thought you could decipher that but ,,,,,

Cold fusion at this time is just a dreamweaver, we have had similar excitment about 14 years ago. There were arrest warrants against both the researchers of University of Utah.


If indeed cold fusion could be sustained, then vsunder garus suggestion of studying Heat transfer under different states (plasma, solid, liquid, fluid high temp, and heat and mass transfer equations would all go waste), and just a dollop of D2 or Li as one BRF member suggested would do the fusion bum for India.
Last edited by John Snow on 29 May 2008 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby abhischekcc » 28 May 2008 23:14

I know about the great scandal of coldfusion of the earlier years.

I also know that the among the labs replicated their experiments, there was a curious pattern, in general -

The labs of developed countries - which had a vested interest in keeping the world addicted to oil, reported negative results.

The labs of developing countries, or those waning to have more enrgy, reported positive results.

:)

------------------
PS
Coldfusion and Dreamweaver are the names of particular softwarepackages, as well. :D

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Postby SaiK » 28 May 2008 23:58

[quote="Sanatanan"]..Later it was shown by several groups including Srinivasan and Padmanabha Krishnagopala Iyengar at BARC in the early 1990s that the reaction produced tritium as well as helium indicating that cold fusion was real. However, further work at BARC was abandoned due to denunciation of cold fusion by mainstream scientists {read, mainly RC?} and the US government.

..........
The Japanese demo comes three months after some of India’s leading nuclear physicists at a meeting in Bangalore formally recommended to the government to revive cold fusion research in India.

“The long neglect of this area (of research) by India must end now,â€

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Postby John Snow » 29 May 2008 00:06

PS
Coldfusion and Dreamweaver are the names of particular softwarepackages, as well.


Hence I thought
The Pun be bought
You got it nought
hope others got!

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Postby ramana » 29 May 2008 01:25

News item

With the Left making noises about reviewing support to the UPA Government regardless of the Indo-US nuclear deal, there is growing restlessness in the ruling Congress camp about the need to take a final call on the deal.

Many top Congress leaders are of the view that since abandoning the deal is no guarantee for the Left's support till the end of the Government's tenure, it should think of going ahead with the deal that could be showcased as a UPA achievement in securing energy security for the country and providing power to farmers.

There are also indications that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh desires to express himself on the deal and to this end a high-level meeting of officials involved in negotiations could be held shortly. Indian Ambassador to the US Ronen Sen who was here recently was also learnt to have conveyed to the Government the urgency to take a final decision on the deal.

"A meeting may be convened to take a look at the available timeline for the deal so that if the Government, at some stage, has to bite the bullet, it should have a plan ready," said a ruling party source. The UPA-Left committee on the nuclear deal is likely to meet on June 11.

The CPI, RSP and Forward Bloc have already gone public with their intention to review support to the Government. Following the Congress's debacle in Karnataka, the CPI(M) has also taken a tough line, saying that the results reflect the UPA Government's performance. The four Left parties are likely to meet shortly to discuss this issue.

There is some thinking in the Left camp that it should not share the UPA's anti-incumbency by supporting the Government through its entire tenure.

Besides, as the Congress remains its main rival in its strongholds of West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura, the Left is wary of adding on to the anti-incumbency factor in these areas by sticking on to the UPA.

"The worst case scenario would be that we abandon the deal and then the Left withdraws support at some point of time. By going ahead with the deal, we will have at least something to talk about," said a senior Congress leader.



Note no names at all for those who want to push the deal.

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Postby NRao » 29 May 2008 01:41

May 27, 2008 :: N-deal not dead, India tells NSG

May 28, 2008 :: India still stuck on 123 while others move ahead

Pakistan signing a nuclear co-operation agreement; Russia and the US finalising their 123 agreement and a host of other countries, including those with easy access to oil, expressing their intention of starting civilian nuclear programmes, India’s failure to move on the nuclear deal is being keenly felt within the government.

China and Pakistan plan to set up the joint Power Plant Corporation to build nuclear and coal-based power plants in Pakistan. China, during Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf’s Beijing visit had also agreed to expedite the delivery of six atomic power plants of 300 mw each. Similarly, Russia and the US have signed their 123 agreement after two years of negotiations without any serious glitches.

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Postby NRao » 29 May 2008 01:42

France for promoting nuclear energy to fight climate change

France is quite keen on nuclear energy being included as a mitigation measure under the Kyoto Protocol to tackle climate change though the European Union (EU) is not in favour of it, according to a French diplomat. A formal pitch is yet to be made in this direction.

This assumes significance in the light of the fact that France has initialled an agreement with India on nuclear civil cooperation, which can be formalised only after it signs a safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) changes its rules.

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Postby NRao » 29 May 2008 01:43

'US nuclear fuel-supply assurances political not legal’

Govt thinking of taking final call on nuclear deal soon

In this regard, the government is understood to have called a high-level meeting to be chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in the next couple of days, where a decision will be taken, sources said on Tuesday.

Among others, the meeting will be attended by Prime Minister's Special Envoy on the nuclear deal Shyam Saran, Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar and India's High Commissioner to Singapore S Jaishankar, who was involved in the negotiations for the agreement since the beginning
Last edited by NRao on 29 May 2008 01:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ramana » 29 May 2008 01:45

NRao wrote:May 27, 2008 :: N-deal not dead, India tells NSG

May 28, 2008 :: India still stuck on 123 while others move ahead

Pakistan signing a nuclear co-operation agreement; Russia and the US finalising their 123 agreement and a host of other countries, including those with easy access to oil, expressing their intention of starting civilian nuclear programmes, India’s failure to move on the nuclear deal is being keenly felt within the government.

China and Pakistan plan to set up the joint Power Plant Corporation to build nuclear and coal-based power plants in Pakistan. China, during Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf’s Beijing visit had also agreed to expedite the delivery of six atomic power plants of 300 mw each. Similarly, Russia and the US have signed their 123 agreement after two years of negotiations without any serious glitches.


Thats DDM at its best. Those guys dont have a Hyde Act as lemma. PRC TSP cooperation even violates the NPT. I guess PMO spin is on full blast.

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Postby satyarthi » 29 May 2008 04:23

It is bizarre to see the pressure tactics being used. First they try to soften BJP's opposition using Brajesh Mishra, APJ Kalam, and Vajpayee, now they are turning up the pressure on Sonia using Rajiv's name!

Emotional blackmail at its pathetic most! "Betraying Rajiv" for few months more in power!

But what and whose is the urgency?

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/315915.html
[quote]Sonia’s choice
K. Subrahmanyam
Posted online: Thursday, May 29, 2008 at 0021 hrs

Whether to sacrifice national interests for a few more months in power

The president of the Congress, Sonia Gandhi, is facing a lonely decision as she did in the summer of 2004 when she decided to step aside in favour of Manmohan Singh as prime minister. At that stage, she was under tremendous pressure from almost all her partymen to assume the office of the prime minister. She asserted that she was listening to her “inner voiceâ€

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Postby merlin » 29 May 2008 06:59

The only way to stop this deal would be for the left to withdraw support before the Congress signs it. That way they become a minority government and the signature would have no credibility inside India. OTOH, if the Left withdraws support after the signature, the Congress will spin it like they signed the deal when they still had majority support.

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Postby sraj » 29 May 2008 09:05

Sanatanan wrote:
If I recall correctly, to be allowed to export Nat U to India, India would have had to, by the NPT rules, place all of its nuclear facilities under safeguards -- clearly a no-no.

This is not correct. NPT allows exports based on facility specific safeguards. It is the 45-nation NSG cartel which introduced the requirement, in 1992, for all facilities to be under safeguards before nuclear trade could happen. Which is why non-NSG countries become so interesting from India's viewpoint.

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Postby Santosh » 29 May 2008 09:58

KS seems to be firmly in the Con-gress camp, he has been spinning in their favour for over an year IMO.

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Postby sraj » 29 May 2008 10:01

NRao wrote:
IF India had reasons to do whatever outside of the NSG/IAEA she should have done it by now. Doing that now is clearly forcing the issue.

And why are we so afraid of "forcing the issue"?

Either the rationale for this deal is:

i) India and US jointly "squaring the circle" (India cannot compromise her security by signing up to these 4-letter treaties, but otherwise has no desire to challenge or undermine the US-crafted global non-proliferation order; the US accepts this, desires mutually beneficial warm relations with India, and therefore wants to help India mitigate the adverse impact of this non-proliferation regime on its energy supplies).
OR
ii) US is trying to create a security dependency on India's part through qualitative and quantitative capping vis-a-vis other powers (in other words: CRE through sweet talk and flattery when sanctions and lectures did not work).

If it is i), the US should be quietly cheering on the non-NSG option as an interim, easy way to "square the circle" in the face of current opposition from hostile domestic lobbies in the US. Everyone could then wait for an opportune future time where Hyde/123 could be cleaned up to make it acceptable all round.

But if it is ii), of course the US will not only "disapprove" as Amb. Mulford states, but use all its might to torpedo the prospect of non-NSG supplies. But it will also thereby demonstrate that this GoI and its various deal supporters have been pushing a deal that is designed to create an Indian security dependency on foreign powers.

btw.....on a different but related issue: does anyone know where Israel gets its Uranium for the unsafeguarded Dimona reactor? (non-NSG Uranium for India would be supplied to safeguarded reactors, with safeguards similar to those applied on Tarapur and Kudankulam).

The Uranium extracted from phosphates by Israel reportedly takes care of less than 10% of its needs. Does anyone believe the US does not know where Israel gets its Uranium?

Wouldn't "forcing the issue" bring much needed clarity to everyone?

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Postby Arun_S » 29 May 2008 11:42

lakshmic wrote:A generic article about how nuclear weapons encourage peace, but there is a googly buried inside
10 years on, nuclear shadow promises peace
Economically weaker Pakistan suffered as aid was cut off and sanctions imposed. In a sagacious move, then Indian prime minister A B Vajpayee bailed out Pakistan by importing sugar worth $200 million. :eek:

Is it true ?

I came to know about it 2 years ago. That was a geo-political payment to buy influence. IMHO we bought is at reasonable price.

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Postby ranganathan » 29 May 2008 12:18

What influence did we buy? KArgil happened after that.

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Postby abhischekcc » 29 May 2008 12:20

Santosh wrote:KS seems to be firmly in the Con-gress camp, he has been spinning in their favour for over an year IMO.


That is incorrect. KS is in US camp, has been since at least the mid-90s.

He has been spinning why supporting US goals is really in India's interests.

If you think he is enthusiastic about the nuke deal, recall his support for ABM defence development by the US - notwithstanding the fact that if the US develops ABM defences, it will directly reduce our strategic manuovering space vis-a-vis US.


All this for a few more months in office?

This is too low, even for him.

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Postby Prabu » 29 May 2008 13:53

Shankar wrote:you can fool some people some of the time
you can fool some people all the time
but you can never never fool all the people all the time

That is the moral of the story on nuclear deal




Well said, Shankar !

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Postby Sanku » 29 May 2008 14:22

abhischekcc wrote:
Santosh wrote:KS seems to be firmly in the Con-gress camp, he has been spinning in their favour for over an year IMO.


That is incorrect. KS is in US camp, has been since at least the mid-90s.

He has been spinning why supporting US goals is really in India's interests..


His last article is not pro-congress by any stretch; it is almost blackmailing/threatening in terms of the pushing he seems to be doing to even the Mai-baap-sarkar of Kangress in support of the deal.

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Postby Philip » 29 May 2008 15:43

Point taken Ramanna.That leaves only Russia who can sell us nuclear technology without fear.Ayway,this nauseating deal is already dead.We are merely witnessing how to carry out the final rites!If the Coingress tries to resurrect the dead,it will be committing suicide!

If I was an adviser to the Congress,I would eke out to the last day the party's turn in office,sacrificing well before that end of days,the "head constable" in charge ,who has a death wish for himself and the party over the deal.This might supplicate the Left who might alos want the head of the bean counter.During this time I would also try and filibuster matters realating to the deal with the IAEA,greet the new US president and sign on for more reactors from Russia,in the heat and dust of the US election! If Pak could manage by hook or crook to become a nuclear power,there is no stopping what we can achieve if we put our minds to it.We are neither parrots or monkeys,but should be lions,tigers and elephants!

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Postby NRao » 29 May 2008 16:16

And why are we so afraid of "forcing the issue"?


I would route you back to the present GoI.

This whole process, starting with not providing proper funding sicne 1990s, to J18, to the Hyde Act and now the 123 deal, is a study in not forcing the issue.

When Thorium was the stuff since the start, why did any GoI not fund it properly - any govt?

Why is it that GoI stopped funding cold fussion?

Why are so many Indians doing so well outside India and a GoI has to make deals?

The problem is not technical. It is a political one and for some reason chai-biscut and face saving have been the culture in New Delhi for decades.

J18 did start with India asking for the same status as the US - in all respects, including placing and replacing nuclear facilities on the SG list, when and where India pleases - just like the US. And, Bush agreed - India is a responsible country he said, will make you a power!!!!

IMHO, ask that Q to MMS. Before he signs anything ..... even his resignation.

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Postby p_saggu » 29 May 2008 17:10

The fact of the matter is that a overwhelming majority of our politicians (and that includes Top leadership and dynasties) are corrupt.
These buggers have so many skeletons in their closets, all of them, that an equilibrium - a quiet understanding of sorts persists at the national level amongst the gang of thieves and robbers.
Internationally, however the picture is a little different. These chaps have ghoos money stashed all over their swiss banks, and the cayman islands banks et.al, and their balls are therefore firmly in the hands of foreign governments, who do not hesitate to squeeze if situation demands so.
Sample this for example
You should see our leadership act speechless or give lame excuses to these foreign govt representatives when they come and tell them that they had promised such and such and instead they've increased or not adequately decreased budgeting for such and such programme.
Problem is that the Leadership of every damn nation in the world is corrupt. Ours are corrupt and unfortunately somewhat spineless.

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Postby ShauryaT » 30 May 2008 07:16

[url=http://theviewspaper.net/science/2008/05/3172]To Deal, Or Not To?
[/url]

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Postby Shankar » 30 May 2008 13:41

T
he fact of the matter is that a overwhelming majority of our politicians (and that includes Top leadership and dynasties) are corrupt.


That is perhaps the biggest understatement of the century

they are just not corrupt they are selfish and stupid at the same time

Their vision stops at their sons and daughters when they should be looking at the millions of citizens depending and trusting them

The corruption is not just financial it is also moral and political

They almost sold the nation to the american bidders for what I still dont understand

Really dont believe they did not understand the implications even after so may pointed out

still dont understand how our AEC chairman supported the deal and is still doing so -he atleast knows what the shit deal means to india and her future

how some of our top so called strategic analysts supports the deal

how most of tv channels that includes NDTV and most news papers support the deal

why they refuse an open debate on the issue

just like you cannot build a castle on quicksand -so can you not build an important agreement of lies and deception

of course you can try but the ressult will be karnataka many times over

The winds of change have started blowing and getting stronger everyday.Problem is those in power is still to insensitive to understand what real India wants .

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Postby ramana » 30 May 2008 20:53

The removal of MJ Akbar from Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle, has sent a chill down the dissenters and even more removed a platform to express dissent. This is the Emergency without the hardface. Asian Age had little circulation limited to Delhi but was in every home of the chatterati. Pioneer just doesnt hav ethe circulation. and MJA did have marquee value.

Internet does not have the reach. Very good move by PMO and INC minions. And they claim to be followers of Jawahar Lal Nehru how was for unversal adult franchise for all Indians. This is dictatorship by stealth and even worse despotism in the modern world.

Behind the facade of Welloff Modern Indian hides the antedeluvian Indian who reveals himself when cornered or looses the arguement.

UPA has lost the arguement on the deal after Hyde Act was passed and is resorting to the power of the Indian state to psuh the deal will nilly. And as the media is bought off by Western interests, Indina interests are being let down.


High preists of the scientific stablishement are hiding behind the protection of Official Secrets Act and getting away with it.

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Postby Prabu » 30 May 2008 23:13

ramana wrote:The removal of MJ Akbar from Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle, has sent a chill down the dissenters and even more removed a platform to express dissent. This is the Emergency without the hardface. Asian Age had little circulation limited to Delhi but was in every home of the chatterati. Pioneer just doesnt hav ethe circulation. and MJA did have marquee value.

Internet does not have the reach. Very good move by PMO and INC minions. And they claim to be followers of Jawahar Lal Nehru how was for unversal adult franchise for all Indians. This is dictatorship by stealth and even worse despotism in the modern world.

Behind the facade of Welloff Modern Indian hides the antedeluvian Indian who reveals himself when cornered or looses the arguement.

UPA has lost the arguement on the deal after Hyde Act was passed and is resorting to the power of the Indian state to psuh the deal will nilly. And as the media is bought off by Western interests, Indina interests are being let down.


High preists of the scientific stablishement are hiding behind the protection of Official Secrets Act and getting away with it.



Ramana garu, Very pathetic state of affairs !! :roll:
See N_Rao 's questions. Very very valid. All Nuke researches has been made to starve systematically ! The success of successful stoppage of teh deal by the left do indicate and gives me confidence that democracy in India still works ! And a group of people irrespective of their highest VVIP status are unable to sell out the nation and sign for a sell out deal !
Hope traitors loose the next elections and democracy wins ! We need a strong Netha at the center.

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Postby Amber G. » 31 May 2008 02:19

FWIW: Wrt to Arata and cold fusion - of course it is always possible that this guy may have something, my take is that is either incompetence or fraud.

Results published not in peer reviewed journals but press conference are not , in my opinion, to be taken without grain of salt. I don't even see much coverage even in main Japanese newspapers (even though they were invited for the Demo) let alone in serious scientific world. (Some blogs do cover it but not anyone I have seen which I find reputable).

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Postby Rye » 31 May 2008 02:21

People here are complaining about GoI is not funding cold fusion research in India?! Why isn't the GoI funding research into a perpetual motion machine -- it would solve the energy problem in a big way. :roll:

If Cold Fusion worked and was accepted by peer review, every news outlet worth its salt will carry those reports -- the science experts in these news outlets probably know better than to
repeat the pons/fleischmann debacle.


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