Future Nuclear Testing: Pros and Cons-1

vera_k
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Postby vera_k » 06 Jun 2008 08:46

enqyoob wrote:To add to the elegance of that thought process, shiv, now I can also say what I was not saying before. Note that a 15kT hit in the middle of a city is a "better" military strategy than a 1MT hit, because the whole place gets paralyzed by the need to care for the dying, survivable wounded, and walking wounded, and destitute evacuees. This clutters up the whole system. In the case of a MT strike, you just forget that city XYZ existed, and consider the new glassy area a potential airfield. Nothing much that can be done to help anyone, and ALL hospitals and facilities in the entire metro area will be gone.


You are assuming the PRC leadership cares about its people. In this situation the PRC leadership is liable to finish off the job for you using their own MT weapon on their city to avoid caring for the wounded.

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Postby Gerard » 06 Jun 2008 09:04

Hmm.. the person visiting the quake affected areas, the same one who visited the train stations to talk to the 100,000 people stuck due to winter storms, that clearly wasn't the Chinese president.

After all, he doesn't care for his people.

That must have been Antonia Maino in drag. She is a real humanitarian...

I find it interesting that China elicits such awe in people that they think rational deterrence doesn't work with them.
China, which has a nuclear arsenal only slightly bigger than France's, which has just 20 ICBMs capable of reaching the west coast of the USA, is apparently undeterred by anything but a superpower size arsenal of 10,000 bombs. While China itself deters the US with a few handful of bombs, it itself is undeterred by arsenals in the hundreds.
Last edited by Gerard on 06 Jun 2008 09:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rye » 06 Jun 2008 09:05

vera_k, The PRC does not care about the people, but it certainly cares a lot about the business interests of the CCP cadre. A nuclear war is usually bad for business.

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 09:10

Chi Chi.

Why talk of killing others? Kill yourself before that.

Open source information says that a 1 megaton bomb causes a radius of damage of 7.1 miles. But in the outermost zones of this circle. 75% of people will survive.

Based on this I have generated a picture of the area of damage of a 1 megaton blast right on top of the white domed building that says "Government's work is Go(w)d(a)'s work" in Bangalore.

In fact the circle is 15 miles in diameter. Note that it (the 1 megaton blast circle) leaves out unscathed even areas like Bidadi and Yelahanka, apart from Hosur, Kanakpura and Tumkur that will serve as places for people to go to and for relief to be brought in. Ideally - all these centers should also be hit to inflict maximum pain on Bangalore. None of thse small areas will need large bombs. Hiroshima sized weapons will be quite adequate.

One can plan for "maximum pain" with whatever the blast radius you can achieve by selection of targets to prevent exodus of people and prevent the influx of relief.

Image

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 09:17

vera_k wrote:
enqyoob wrote:To add to the elegance of that thought process, shiv, now I can also say what I was not saying before. Note that a 15kT hit in the middle of a city is a "better" military strategy than a 1MT hit, because the whole place gets paralyzed by the need to care for the dying, survivable wounded, and walking wounded, and destitute evacuees. This clutters up the whole system. In the case of a MT strike, you just forget that city XYZ existed, and consider the new glassy area a potential airfield. Nothing much that can be done to help anyone, and ALL hospitals and facilities in the entire metro area will be gone.


You are assuming the PRC leadership cares about its people.


It may not care, but the aim is to kill or hurt the people who are essential for day to day survival of the country around the areas where the leadership's main infrastructure exists. Killing off or wounding 40% of the firemen, doctors, nurses, street cleaners and water supply workers in central districts of important towns will soon cause pain to everyone.

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Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2008 09:28

The NPA paragon M.V. Ramana (no relation) used to post these kind of pictures with Princeton physicist Fritz van pompous.

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 09:33

ramana wrote:The NPA paragon M.V. Ramana (no relation) used to post these kind of pictures with Princeton physicist Fritz van pompous.


Yes - but for all the wrong reasons.

Here is an image of how restricted a 1 megaton on Beijing would be. What is needed IMO is a string of small bombs on all the population centers from which relief can come and refugees can flee to in the event of an attack on central Beijing that kills even 100,000 people.

Image

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 09:48

Oh - and i forgot the real charm of "second strike capability"

Start nuclear war.

Hit population centers with nukes to cause casualties in the hundreds of thousands and cause surviving men, women and children to flee, but quickly also hit the centers that they are fleeing to, so that they can get no relief there, and cause people in those centers to try an flee somewhere and find that a nuke has been dropped in every which direction.

Then you get nuked yourself and go straight to houriland, but.. after that, your "second strike" forces kick in.

When the dirty enemy is licking his wounds, drop on him (as planned and written in your will) a second series of bombs aimed at population centers that are being used for relief work.

That'll learn him for messin' with you.

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 06 Jun 2008 09:52

ramana wrote:Raj, Do a spreadsheet exercise and use the ratios that lakshmic gave out on the stated and the goal. The numbers will speak to you.
Thanks for listening.


Thanks for the advice, I had missed this series of lakshmic posts. I just want to add that using non-fissile material may also reduce the fusion and consequent fission which means that upgarding from 43kt to 500kt may be straight forward task.

This is assuming that TN did work and the yield was 43kt and not 20kt with failed secondary

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 10:04

Just a suggestion.

Ramana, Arun and others (LakshmiC?) - would it be possible for you people to coordinate and do an article on why we had a fizzle in 1998 and why testing is needed on the basis of that and how urgently (in your view)

I will try and do an article on the possibility of maintaining effective deterrence with say 20 kt nukes and see if enqyoob has any inputs.

Anyone else willing to do this or at least pitch in?

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Postby vera_k » 06 Jun 2008 10:45

Gerard wrote:Hmm.. the person visiting the quake affected areas, the same one who visited the train stations to talk to the 100,000 people stuck due to winter storms, that clearly wasn't the Chinese president.

After all, he doesn't care for his people.


A dog and pony show to keep people coming to the Olympics.

Gerard wrote:China, which has a nuclear arsenal only slightly bigger than France's, which has just 20 ICBMs capable of reaching the west coast of the USA, is apparently undeterred by anything but a superpower size arsenal of 10,000 bombs. While China itself deters the US with a few handful of bombs, it itself is undeterred by arsenals in the hundreds.


The Chinese communists have killed tens of millions of their own citizens to date. The Americans have not. Therefore the American leadership cares for its citizens while the Chinese leadership does not. Thus while the American superpower can be deterred by a small arsenal, the Chinese cannot similarly be deterred as they would not view losing millions of citizens as unacceptable damage.

A century of genocide

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Postby Arun_S » 06 Jun 2008 11:10

Raj Malhotra wrote:This is assuming that TN did work and the yield was 43kt and not 20kt with failed secondary

That is the pivotal assumption.

As Ramana asked, use spread sheet and see how does the assumption fare.

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Postby p_saggu » 06 Jun 2008 14:35

Shiv-ji
Suppose that Bangalore were hit by a MIRV nuclear attack, the picture will be somewhat similar to this.
Image

Smaller weapons spread out will cause greater death and destruction, and maim all ability to provide relief.

N^3, you are talking about the analogy of the 5.56mm bullet over the 7.62mm one, maim the enemy soldier instead of killing him instantly, so that as he cries out in pain he demoralizes his fellow soldiers and is a burden on them as long as he lives.

Dark thoughts indeed...

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Postby rocky » 06 Jun 2008 15:23

I thought we used "kilometers" in India, and not "miles"?

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 16:13

rocky wrote:I thought we used "kilometers" in India, and not "miles"?

Mostly correct.

The particular Google ref I found for a 1 Megaton weapon gave a radius of 7.1 miles., and the "ruler" on Google Earth measures in miles by default unless I select kilometers.

I chose to use miles.

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 16:18

p_saggu wrote:Shiv-ji
Suppose that Bangalore were hit by a MIRV nuclear attack, the picture will be somewhat similar to this.
Image

Smaller weapons spread out will cause greater death and destruction, and maim all ability to provide relief.

Dark thoughts indeed...


No doubt - but if the MIRVs are targeted to hit the main areas to which people will flee or from which relief may come a much larger radius is rendered non functional.

You only need to kill 10 or 20 thousand per warhead - the rest will be running from here to there on the main roads and meeting crowds coming from the opposite direction. They will spill into the countryside and camp there without relief, food or water and suffer and die by the hundred - which will itself serve as a source of further misery and disease.

Dirty stuff even to think or write about - my own mental cognitive dissonance (and thereby denial) against referring to such stuff is beginning to kick in, but one must suppress that to actually think of such scenarios.

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Postby rkrao » 06 Jun 2008 16:48

I think incase of second strike we should act quick,fast and Hit hard so that the enemy is completely dead.This we shoud do before International Community/UNSC pitches in.
Nuclear War will not happen like regular LOC Fire exchange between india and Pak. So atleast for the confirmed Kill we need to test it again for 200Kt yield.
Just my thoughts....

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 16:57

rkrao wrote:I think incase of second strike we should act quick,fast and Hit hard so that the enemy is completely dead.This we shoud do before International Community/UNSC pitches in.
Nuclear War will not happen like regular LOC Fire exchange between india and Pak. So atleast for the confirmed Kill we need to test it again for 200Kt yield.
Just my thoughts....


My entire scenario presupposes that there are no 200 kt warheads. Testing them and fielding them is not part of what I am referring to. All we need is 6-8 well placed 20 kiloton warheads to create enough mayhem to paralyse and render ineffective a huge megacity. Even a single one megaton bomb may not do that so effectively, and that was what I was trying to illustrate

Remember that we are saying that India has no capability of fielding 200 kt warheads. testing them and fielding them will require (IMO and as I have stated) at least 10 to 15 years if we start today. Not taking into account the military impact of sanctions and assuming the economy goes on unaffected by military sanctions.

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Postby merlin » 06 Jun 2008 17:39

All we need is 6-8 well placed 20 kiloton warheads to create enough mayhem to paralyse and render ineffective a huge megacity. Even a single one megaton bomb may not do that so effectively, and that was what I was trying to illustrate


Maybe so. But in the absence of MIRV you then need 6-8 delivery vehicles as opposed to one delivery vehicle in the other case (ignoring attrition of delivery vehicles through failure, sabotage, shoot-down, etc.). In the presence of MIRV, your delivery vehicle must have enough throw weight to lob those 6-8 packages to the distance required.

Secondly, 6-8 packages would require more maal than one single package I would think.

Effectively trade off, say 1 200kT, for 6-8 20kT at the expense of more maal required and more delivery vehicles (in the absence of MIRV)?

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Postby satyarthi » 06 Jun 2008 18:00

1. For the same bang TNs consume much smaller amount of precious Pu.

2. All major powers' aresnal consists of TNs.

3. TNs are not restricted to be > 100kt. If people love their 20kts, then they can be 20kt with much smaller consumption of precious Pu.

4. TNs have a much better yield to weight ratio, so many can be mounted on a single missile (MIRV).

In a nutshell, TNs are a better option than FBF any day.

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Postby G Subramaniam » 06 Jun 2008 18:07

shiv wrote:Just a suggestion.

Ramana, Arun and others (LakshmiC?) - would it be possible for you people to coordinate and do an article on why we had a fizzle in 1998 and why testing is needed on the basis of that and how urgently (in your view)

I will try and do an article on the possibility of maintaining effective deterrence with say 20 kt nukes and see if enqyoob has any inputs.

Anyone else willing to do this or at least pitch in?


I think everyone including Arun-S will agree that the boosted fission worked and is scalable to at least 150 KT

The volume of a sphere = 4/3 * pi * radius cubed

Given that to get a kill, the blast intensity inside this sphere has to exceed a certain threshold,
going from 10KT to 1000KT , a blast factor of 1000, will only increase the kill radius by the cube-root, 10

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 18:14

Merlin, Satyarthi - as per opinions expressed on the forum - India just does not have the maal for 200 kt.

And I am yet to get anyone to rebut my contention that if we test today and successfully "prove" one 200 kt warhead, we would need at least one repeat test in a few months to a year (after analysing data) to prove the warhead and ten years after that to equip sizable numbers of delivery vehicles with those newly tested warheads.

So testing TODAY means 200 kt deterrent in 10-12 years if the tests are an unqualified success. If any of the tests fails it will be longer.

What do we do for a deterrent for the next 12 to 15 years. Do we have NO deterrent now? What is the nature of the Indian deterrent today?

If we test today - everyone will know that our deterrent is less than satisfactory to us and they will realise the time to blackmail us is in the next 10 years so that they can slow us down as much as possible - or perhaps even impose more wars and terrorism knowing that we are still trying to get a deterrent ready.

If we don't test today it means that

a) India is happy with its deterrent as it stands
or
b) India is bluffing the whole world and has no deterrent worth speaking of.

Which is a better option? Testing today or not testing today?

As I stated earlier, not testing "today" but retaining the uncertainty, and an option to test later is what gets my vote.

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Postby satyarthi » 06 Jun 2008 18:25

I think Ramana's view is that the TN device in 1998 may have worked. But it wasn't weaponised and perhaps didn't have the tertiary. So, at least one or may be only one round of tests is needed to proof the TN weaponised design.

And to make it convincing he suggested that all three stages be tested separately in the same series of tests:

(i) FBF primary
(ii) FBF primary + fusion fuel + spark plug but with non fissioning tamper
(iii) full weaponised design with FBF primary+ fusion fuel + spark plug + fissioning tamper/casing.

IMHO a proofed TN test is needed. But may be we can wait a few years. It is good that Advani has been making noises about Pokharan-III, so in future rest of the world can't act as surprised.
Last edited by satyarthi on 06 Jun 2008 19:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby vsunder » 06 Jun 2008 18:49

More seriously than all this 200kt, test now, test tomorrow, "incineration radius" RC's term used in lectures etc etc has anyone thought about the manpower crisis that looms with the DAE, CSIR etc not being able to attract top talent. Look here we have a situation Sikka does the crater phenomenology(Pramana paper 1986) with RC, Sikka does seismology all those Current Science papers, Sikka does EOS, Sikka does neutron physics ietc etc. now Sikka has gone. Ab Ranga kya hoga? I mean suppose Thirunansambandam did aerodynamics for LCA, Thirunansambandam did avioniics, Thirunansambandam did Kaveri all for the LCA what will the "gurus" say on this forum. Either Thirunansambandam is the "cleverest boy in Bangalore or Nashik or wherever" or there is a manpower shortage to oversee everything.

So 10 years down the road from what various senior DAE people and people in IIT's tell me and at IISc there is a problem coming. Yes India may have a strong economics base but I can assure you the scientific leadership in India is in a bind with this problem of poor students.

There is an actual course being run in IIT Bombay( it still calls itself that) in a few days with many of the basic things needed to do some of the things discussed. Most people who attend are lectureres from small places all over India. But then they go back to Tondiarpet, Changanacherry etc and forget what they have learnt much less teach their wards the things they have learnt in IIT because its outside the syllabus.

CEP Course IIT Bombay

So even to manage what you have and go beyond what you have I fear there is a problem. Fine lets stop testing etc. whatever and let the economy grow. How sure is everybody that there will be a next generation of competent people? I can tell you categorically in TIFR there is a crisis. Same at HRI and IMSc these are all DAE institutes. It is openly talked about there. If you search you will find lots of links about the crisis in the IIT's. One way out of this is to get people from eastern Europe.
Yes they have started to apply to India. However as a department head
told me in IIT Bombay showing me an applicants file. India is not yet competitive to hire such people. These are not the A grade types who still go to the US. But reasonably good people. A salary of $3000/- will attract them, but the GOI is yet to move. At TIFR such applicants are there too,
I have been shown such files. Maybe give these people security clearance and let them work. How comfortable are you? Pakistan has been doing this quietly, you will find Ibrahimov, and Bashirkoff's in the faculty. All those Uzbegs, Kyrghzs etc who occupied lower level positions in weapons bureaus have to eat and since many are out of work and not needed in Russia why not join the chums across the border. This has not gone unnoticed in India I can tell you.

Maybe I am being pessimistic but it is a serious concern.
Last edited by vsunder on 06 Jun 2008 20:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 18:54

Ah Vsunder has shown the real deterrent :)

Our science labs are a deterrent by themselves and keep people away while they are kept unattractive by GoI.

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Postby merlin » 06 Jun 2008 19:36

shiv wrote:Merlin, Satyarthi - as per opinions expressed on the forum - India just does not have the maal for 200 kt.


By maal, I meant fissile material. What do you mean by "India just does not have the maal for 200 kt."?

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 19:48

merlin wrote:
shiv wrote:Merlin, Satyarthi - as per opinions expressed on the forum - India just does not have the maal for 200 kt.


By maal, I meant fissile material. What do you mean by "India just does not have the maal for 200 kt."?


Proven working design. It was a fizzle remember?

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Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2008 20:51

shiv wrote:Just a suggestion.

Ramana, Arun and others (LakshmiC?) - would it be possible for you people to coordinate and do an article on why we had a fizzle in 1998 and why testing is needed on the basis of that and how urgently (in your view)

I will try and do an article on the possibility of maintaining effective deterrence with say 20 kt nukes and see if enqyoob has any inputs.

Anyone else willing to do this or at least pitch in?


Sigh. I don’t know why you want to tag me with the ‘fizzle’ tag? In case people have forgotten I am the co-author of the BRM a paper that says that the yields were what were stated. And to remind people it is still the best summary paper available and has done much to dispel the Wallace type reports. It has done more for India than any Johnny come lately’s.

It’s not me or the others who say it was a “partialâ€

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Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2008 21:18

ramana wrote:My case for option for testing is based on the statements that S-1 was a weaponizable design. If so it has to be proofed. That’s my case. I have stated this many times but folks don’t seem to understand or care for the nuance.
While you are at it pray what is the 20kt based on? Please go back to the press record of what was tested and later clarifications from officials/scientists.

Thanks for listening,
ramana


OK ramana got it.

20 kt is a guesstimate of what people on here will agree India can do without arguing. Apart from your lone and perfectly valid query note that the figure has caused no discomfort or takleef to anyone on this forum.

To me that speaks of states of mind, and is a meter the level of credibility that Indian nukes seem to have on the forum without sparking off incredulity, suspicion and a desire to whittle down (or notch up) the figure to what minds can accept, no matter what the real evidence may be.

I just wonder what reactions might have been if I had speculated 10 kt, 30 kt" or "43 kt" or more.

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Postby svinayak » 06 Jun 2008 21:21

There is a reason for specific number such as 43Kt, 20Kt etc. It has to do with the amount of material and at what point will the fission happen. Experts will elaborate.

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Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2008 21:33

The reason why there is no expression of takleef is because S-2 has not been studied as much as S-1.
To make it easy for folks S-2 was a weapon from stockpile of 1988 circa tested to show aging. Refer to Rajamohan's talk at CASI, UPenn in 1998 after the tests. And its result was 12 kt per the radio chem paper. Further its aircraft launched ie not missile launched.
S-1 was stated to be specific design for the missiles. Refer RC interview in Hindustan Times op-ed.
My point is its not easy to take S-2 and slap it into a Agony vehicle as the environments are different between air launched and missile launched.

Now you see why those retired forces guys fret about all this.

See before the ambiguity it was ok to conjure up yields. You could talk about Campa Cola, Thums up and numbupani what not. People would believe you could make soda, nay amrut. After the tests it has to be what was shown to be crediblly demonstrated.

Anyway if all of you have made up your minds no point in being a Vikrana.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 06 Jun 2008 23:00

ramana, I c 2.

BUT... this is the technical argument by the guys who say: "If I am to field this weapon I must have some assurance that it will work"... and "Before we go and build 50 of these bloody expensive things we must have some assurance that it will work as advertised".

What if the right response is:
We are going to make 5 of these, and 250 empty casings, and keep them well hidden. We won't answer any questions on whether they are "weaponized" and proven. The real deterrent is something else

(which is what I think is going on).

In other words, I simply refuse to enter the argument on whether the weapon designs are proven or not. The moment I say: "I MUST TEST MORE!" I am admitting that my designs did not work last time. So I just won't say anything. Let the dogs bark - and wonder why I am not throwing stones at them.

My other point is that dispersed attacks with small-Kilotonnage weapons is probably even more devastating than a few big-throw-weight hits.

Extending that, we get into the question of missile survivability. I think large ICBMs are dinosaurs. The wrong people will all acquire defenses against these. I can work out perfectly feasible system designs where the advantage is VERY heavily on the side of the defender, even for large areas, not just city downtowns. MIRV won't solve it, I can make sure there are 5 interceptor missiles homing in on each of the MIRV dummies and warheads.

But I cannot defend against a shower of independent hypersonic missiles, especially ones that cruise flat, not go into Space and re-enter. Each of the warheads on these can be tiny, and they are still devastating. So real deterrence in future is the belief by the enemy that you have such weapons. For these, I think the fact that India can make fission-based explosives is proven, so the emphasis should shift to delivery vehicles.

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Postby ramdas » 06 Jun 2008 23:10

Regarding yields: It has been conclusively shown that S-1 yield was as claimed by DAE. Not what NPA's claimed. In that case, except for "somebody gave me inside info" kind of arguments, there is no credible refuting of DAE's claim that 45 kt was what they designed.

Nobody argues that boosted fission was not credibly demonstrated. Even Bharat Karnad says that DAE informed him about boosted fission weapons weighing 200-300kg yielding around 100kt. A 250kg RV with a 100kg boosted fission warhead is not impossible. NWFAQ talks of a 700kg 500kt boosted fission warhead by one of the P-5 in the 1960's. Such a 100kt weapon is likely to be reliable. There is no point in running down India's capability to hit back hard.

The focus should be on mass production of such weapons and their delivery systems. Even the P-5 are moving towards 100kt weapons. The only difference is that boosted fission uses more fissile material and is heavier. So what ? Produce more fismat, and more delivery systems.

At this point, my only concern is that the nuclear deal can trap us into a FMCT. We should stay away from the FMCT at all costs till we have a 20t WGPu stockpile or thereabouts.

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Postby svinayak » 06 Jun 2008 23:29

Once the testing is done and started the design is up for scrutiny.
There is no going back

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Postby Prem » 06 Jun 2008 23:35

Most likely space will be weaponized by big powers. Small/ Smart Bums might get depolyed to be delivered by Hypersonic Mizziles coming down from heaven like divine revelations.

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Postby ShauryaT » 06 Jun 2008 23:36

ramana wrote:Anyway if all of you have made up your minds no point in being a Vikrana.
No, no, no. There is a point. You make it like a Guru. Please do your duty, so that shishyas do not waver in wrong directions.

PS: No matter, what you do, you are not escaping the Guru label. :)

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 07 Jun 2008 00:32

Today the experts and jumping up and down demanding that India "test" b4 shutting off the testing forever. The costs of doing this are very very high.

But there is a far greater danger in going down this nuke testing path. It is the missed opportunity to race ahead full throttle and get to testing tomorrow's weapons, whsoe testing is NOT YET BANNED. If we keep trying to prepare for last century's wars, we will miss the chance to avoid the same errors, and get ahead for tomorrow.

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Postby John Snow » 07 Jun 2008 01:52

In the early 1990s Unkil was very upset about Agony program, these days unkil is urging us to expand the range of Agnoys , is this transformation because they got to know that only chotus will ride agnoy!!
And at the same time push the 123, so apun sirif chotu hi rahenge?

Prem
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Postby Prem » 07 Jun 2008 02:04

John Snow wrote:In the early 1990s Unkil was very upset about Agony program, these days unkil is urging us to expand the range of Agnoys , is this transformation because they got to know that only chotus will ride agnoy!!
And at the same time push the 123, so apun sirif chotu hi rahenge?


Dr Sahib said its not the size but how one use it matter. Then no one knows that in excited enviornment Chotu might transform into big with little expert touch. Chotus expose the intent and warning to opponents to not to get any smart idea.

ramana
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Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2008 02:27

N^3, It doesnt work like that. The shell game I mean. One can fool one's own or muzzle them or fiat them. But the problem is with the challengers. What will one fool them with when they will take out all the 255 shells and casings? Long ago Sunderji asked three fundamental questions?
1)Can nukes be deterred by non nukes?
2) If the answer is no then what should be the posture?
3) Can India afford the posture? IOW are there shortcuts to the posture?

Again who is asking to test? Why this false flag being waved? The essential issue is the option to test with unfettered restrictions when needed/required. Hyde puts limits on this and has been not countered. The 123 has exceptions based on Presidential determination. That is the issue.

Those hypersonic etc are vaporware and as a good engineer you should always discount the future. Or as the old saying goes a bird int eh hand et etc...


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