Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Rangudu
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Rangudu » 23 Jun 2008 03:45

Acharya wrote:The business lobby has long reach. They seem to have reached the top to eliminate any obstacle. Just like in BRF

Do you have any evidence to support this conspiracy theory? Those death threats could have come from any number of patriotic Indians who are pissed at the Left parties so openly supporting Chinese agenda inside India.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby svinayak » 23 Jun 2008 03:54

Is it not interesting that they are worried about anit-americanism of the left parties.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Rangudu » 23 Jun 2008 03:58

Acharya wrote:Is it not interesting that they are worried about anit-americanism of the left parties.

Not as much as the BJP appearing to be on the same side as the pro-China left?

Seriously, given the number of people involved in Indo-US relations, one can formulate ANY theory and pick and choose events and statements to support the theory. There's the famous argument that a monkey in front of a typewriter will type Shakespeare's compilations if given enough time.

How about this theory? I think the Chinese government paid these guys to make the death threats and generate sympathy for the Left while conventiently pinning the blame on America.

There is the same amount of evidence to support this theory as there is to support yours - ZERO.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Jagan » 23 Jun 2008 04:08

Acharya wrote:The business lobby has long reach. They seem to have reached the top to eliminate any obstacle. Just like in BRF


"Just like in BRF"?

Are you implying there is a 'business lobby' in BRF that seems to have reached "the top"?

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Gerard » 23 Jun 2008 04:10

How incompetent these Indian businessmen are. They have all this money but are unable to hire professionals to deal with the CPI(M) saviors of the nation. They have to use their bad English and send handwritten notes. Morons could not even find a spent bullet to send in the mail. Or the head of a chicken. No matter, the letters will really scare the CPI(M) patriot men.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Neshant » 23 Jun 2008 04:14

Since countries like China and US can transfer any amount of fissile material under the table to their allies at any time, the fmct is a dangerous treaty for India. It limits only India.

In the name of economic growth, this deal will be signed and only later will the consequences be realised once everything starts being linked to the deal.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Gerard » 23 Jun 2008 04:19

Any deal must have broad political support.

No minority government has the moral right to bind the state to international agreements of such magnitude. Let them call for a free vote in the parliament.

If they don't, parties that think they may form a any future government should announce their intention to abrogate the agreement. They must announce this so all international players are forewarned.

Either the deal is bad or it is good. If they believe the deal is bad, they should be willing to tear it up. If not, the deal is good and they are simply posturing.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Rangudu » 23 Jun 2008 04:30

BJP is posturing here. Everyone and his Uncle knows that. The issue is that Manmohan Singh forced BJP to do that by his trying to take all the credit after J18. That caused BJP to make a hawkish stand and the game of chicken has been going on ever since. They have gone too far now, the BJP. They cannot support this deal without looking silly.

BTW, L.K.Advani has also criticized the "blind anti-Americanism" of the Left parties in opposing this deal. Was he also paid off by the "business lobby"?

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby ramdas » 23 Jun 2008 04:49

Does the 123 agreement itself commit us to cooperate towards an FMCT or is it only some clause in the Hyde Act that says so ? Can somebody examine this ?

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby John Snow » 23 Jun 2008 04:57

Rangadu>> this is a hotch potch government, and having admitted that the extreme left was roped in.
Look at the idiotic way the people at the helm went about. They could not win the allies of Govt. Even then went ahead and signed a deal of great consequences. The information being released in bit and pieces, that too after agreement details were being in congress.

The amaturish PM put his personal prestige into the agreement when he was a puppet.
SO we are here. Who was he counting on? The business to prop him when the shoe dropped?.

You and I know any one can buy congress men and MPs no?

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Rangudu » 23 Jun 2008 05:06

It was just pure coincidence that a weak PM was at the helm when the US had a President powerful enough to break a 30-year deadlock and bureaucratic stonewalling.

Recall that it was only Condi, Zelikow and a couple of other people put this together within the US, at a time when Bush convincingly defeated Kerry and was at the peak of his power. This was before Katrina and before Iraq's worst times. What was MMS to do when this deal was on offer? Say that "Sorry, we are too weak to talk?"

Surely, everyone underestimated the inertia, obstacles to consensus building and the pure malicious pro-China efforts of the Left at that time. But don't blame MMS for dreaming big. Even a peon in power would have taken a shot at fulfilling 50 plus years of India's nuclear ambitions.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby John Snow » 23 Jun 2008 05:16

"Make your dreams come true! WAKE UP!"
Was the sticker my dad put infront of my bed when I was a teenager. This PM thought he was bigger than what he is. I have seen JLN as a kid This PM is no JLN to make history when he did not even get elected. :roll:

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Gerard » 23 Jun 2008 05:19

ramdas wrote:Does the 123 agreement itself commit us to cooperate towards an FMCT or is it only some clause in the Hyde Act that says so ? Can somebody examine this ?


India - U.S. Joint Statement
Washington, DC
July 18, 2005

http://www.indianembassy.org/press_rele ... uly/21.htm

The Prime Minister conveyed that for his part, India would reciprocally agree that it would be ready to assume the same responsibilities and practices and acquire the same benefits and advantages as other leading countries with advanced nuclear technology, such as the United States. These responsibilities and practices consist of identifying and separating civilian and military nuclear facilities and programs in a phased manner and filing a declaration regarding its civilians facilities with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA); taking a decision to place voluntarily its civilian nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards; signing and adhering to an Additional Protocol with respect to civilian nuclear facilities; continuing India’s unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing; working with the United States for the conclusion of a multilateral Fissile Material Cut Off Treaty; refraining from transfer of enrichment and reprocessing technologies to states that do not have them and supporting international efforts to limit their spread; and ensuring that the necessary steps have been taken to secure nuclear materials and technology through comprehensive export control legislation and through harmonization and adherence to Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) guidelines.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2008 05:30

Acharya wrote:The business lobby has long reach. They seem to have reached the top to eliminate any obstacle. Just like in BRF

:lol: NIMHANS material

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Tilak » 23 Jun 2008 05:53

Deal, but yet no deal
Navin Upadhyay | New Delhi

Govt wants to clear IAEA stage, leaves rest to fate :rotfl:

Relations between the UPA Government and the Left parties may have nosedived following Prime Minister Manomohan Singh's insistence to carry on with the India-US civil nuclear agreement, but peace-brokers are making serious efforts to provide face-savers to both the sides.

The UPA-Left nuclear committee is expected to meet in the absence of one of the key negotiators, Union Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar, on June 25. The Left leaders wanted Pawar to cancel his cricketing engagement in London and attend the crucial meeting, or the meeting to be deferred till his return. The Congress leaders, however, were not willing to waste anymore time.

The acerbic sound bytes and caustic exchanges are more for public posturing between the two sides. Behind the scenes, serious discussions are taking place to delay the face-off till another day so that even if the Government eventually falls on this issue, the general elections take place only next year.

Sources said that while the final breakthrough could await Pawar's return to New Delhi, the broader contours of a formula have been drafted by the peacemakers. These include withdrawal of the Left's embargo on the Government to seek the approval of the IAEA board of governors to India-specific safety agreement and a private commitment by the Prime Minister against ratifying the 123 Agreement with the US without the Left's explicit consent.

Sources said that this formula could address the concerns of both the sides. More than the nuclear deal per se, the issue at hand for the Government is the image of the Prime Minister {ie. H&D ??} and India's international standing. Sources said that if the Left allowed the Government to proceed to cross the IAEA hurdle, the PM could tell the US that India had met its part of the obligation and the rest was for the international community to deliberate and decide at the NSG. :roll:

Urging the Left to allow the Government to go to the IAEA board of governors, some senior allies have told the Left leaders that with countries like China not happy with the 123 Agreement, one should not expect a smooth sailing and the matter could drag well beyond the Bush presidency.

This is where the catch lies. The Left is not willing to take any chances and wants a categorical assurance from the Government that it would not ratify the treaty with the US if the NSG hurdle was crossed speedily. In talks with External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, some UPA leaders have suggested that the Government could make a commitment either before them or before any other group or individual acceptable to the Left that it would not push ahead with the nuclear agreement beyond the IAEA phase.

"We have told the Left leaders to come up with more suggestions," said a UPA leader. "We don't expect a breakthrough on June 25, but some agreement will be arrived at soon," he added.

However, a section of the leaders who want to take the deal beyond IAEA stage is seeking to reach a mutual solution with the Left. They want this solution to be such that the comrades wait till August-September before withdrawing support to the Government. "It will be a win-win situation. The Left would have proved its point and we would get the deal," said a senior UPA leader.


The above says that "123 Agreement hasn't been ratified yet", and
Kapil Sibal said a couple of days back that "123 has been signed" (CNN-IBN Video)

:roll:

I come back to my earlier question to which I haven't gotten any response, has India signed the 123 agreement ?, anybody..??. AFAIK Condi Rice was to visit India and sign it. That dropped off everybody's radar. Although Pranab Mukherji visited US after that, nothing showed up in the news, wrt. India's signature.

Thoughts ?

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby John Snow » 23 Jun 2008 05:57

They might have signed but no LTI yet.
The PM always has an Ace up his ....

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby rocky » 23 Jun 2008 06:03

The UPA-Left nuclear committee is expected to meet in the absence of one of the key negotiators, Union Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar, on June 25. The Left leaders wanted Pawar to cancel his cricketing engagement in London and attend the crucial meeting, or the meeting to be deferred till his return. The Congress leaders, however, were not willing to waste anymore time.
I always knew cricket was more important than pressing concerns of national security and energy policy. For the first time I guess, BRF is behind the curve, I ask for BRF to reinstate the cricket thread back to it's original glory!

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Tilak » 23 Jun 2008 06:06

John Snow wrote:They might have signed but no LTI yet.
The PM always has an Ace up his ....

LTI ??

Clarification: I meant formal signature on the 123 document and the person who signed it, if it was indeed done.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby John Snow » 23 Jun 2008 06:09

LTI ----> Left thumb impression for Unpad ( ie signing away with out reading the fine print)

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby ShauryaT » 23 Jun 2008 06:53

Gerard wrote:If they don't, parties that think they may form a any future government should announce their intention to abrogate the agreement. They must announce this so all international players are forewarned.

Either the deal is bad or it is good. If they believe the deal is bad, they should be willing to tear it up. If not, the deal is good and they are simply posturing.
Please see precisely, what the BJP has said about the deal. They will renegotiate it. It is a diplomatic way of saying the deal is dead and will be abrogated. There is no posturing here. The fundamental problems of this deal are rooted in the lack of parity and reciprocity envisioned in J18 and the BJP's thought leaders on the issue have been pointing it out since M2 - long before Hyde and long before 123.

I think MMS and team are also very credible and have shown consistency on the issue by supporting the deal and keeping the economic issue in the forefront although at the cost of strategic power - which in their view is not of much value, at least at this time. The choice before us is very clear.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby nkumar » 23 Jun 2008 07:07

India's U.S.-Influenced Decision to Shut Down Cirus Research Reactor
Cirus: A Testament to the Prime Minister’s Double Talk


Brahma Chellaney
Covert magazine, July 1-15, 2008


One of the great mysteries still begging for illumination is Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s embrace of nuclear energy. No week or month passes without Singh alluding to the benefits of nuclear power for India. But as finance minister during the 1991-95 period, Singh starved the nuclear programme of funds, disabling new projects and halting uranium exploration.

The uranium crunch India confronts today is rooted in the fact that the actions Singh set in motion were not reversed until several years after he left office. The nation today has a right to know whether Singh’s new-found interest in nuclear power is centred on imports — a concern reinforced by his government’s 2008-09 budget, which slashes the Department of Atomic Energy’s funding by $529 million.

Another baffling mystery is Singh’s decision, as part of the controversial nuclear deal with the United States, to permanently shut down by 2010 one of the country’s two bomb-grade plutonium-production reactors. The prime minister has offered no explanation to the nation for overruling the nuclear establishment and agreeing to shut down the Cirus research reactor, located at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre.

Much of India’s cumulative historic production of weapons-grade plutonium has come from Cirus, operating since 1960. In fact, Cirus had been refurbished at a cost of millions of dollars and reopened for barely two years when Singh made the surprise announcement to close down the reactor. Speaking in the Lok Sabha on March 10, 2006, the prime minister claimed that, “while the Cirus reactor was refurbished recently, the associated cost will be more than recovered by the isotope [production] and the research we will be conducting before it is closed”. (That is OK sirjee, lekin would it not make economic sense to continue using the facility to max the returns on investment used in refurbishing the reactor?)

But Singh still hasn’t answered the key question: Why did he succumb to U.S. pressure over a reactor that remains crucial to India’s strategic programme? Not only does the country still lack a credible minimal nuclear deterrent against its main challenge, China, but also current international estimates of India’s weapons-grade fissile material stockpile put its quantity just marginally higher than Pakistan’s. Given that Singh is now committed to “work with the U.S.” for the early conclusion of a Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty (FMCT), India needs to sharply accelerate its rate of weapons-grade plutonium production as it doesn’t have time on its side. Singh’s action, however, throws a larger spanner in the works.

The shutdown of Cirus two years from now, if the nuclear deal goes through, will deprive the nuclear military programme of almost one-third of its current supply of weapons-grade plutonium. Of course, India could build a replacement reactor. But the long lead time needed to build a research reactor, and the government failure thus far to sanction such a facility, will leave a major production shortfall.

The fuel burn-up in large, electricity-generating reactors produces plutonium of a quality far less desirable for weapons. Therefore, for military-grade plutonium, India has relied on its research reactors, Cirus and Dhruva. But Dhruva — commissioned in 1985 — faced major start-up problems that took several years to rectify. That is why the 40-MWth Cirus has contributed the larger share of India’s cumulative historic production of weapons-grade plutonium — a point noted by Paul Nelson et al in a 2006 paper funded by the U.S. Department of Energy. In having insisted that New Delhi dismantle Cirus, America’s aim, needless to say, was to crimp India’s nuclear-deterrent plans — an objective the deal seeks to serve also by enforcing a permanent test ban.

Cirus — the source of plutonium for the 1974 nuclear test — was built with Canadian technical assistance and received US heavy water under two separate 1956 contracts that predated the 1957 establishment of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and the 1968 finalization of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) text. Because the concept of international “safeguards” (inspections) had not yet been devised, India gave no explicit undertaking to abjure nuclear-explosive uses.

Indeed, just after Cirus came on line, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru openly declared: “We are approaching a stage when it is possible for us … to make atomic weapons”. Decades later, the shutdown decision has given the non-proliferation lobby in the U.S. and Canada much to celebrate: India is tacitly conceding its 1974 test was born in sin and, to atone for it, it will shut down Cirus. Singh’s action, besides compromising the strategic programme, mocks various international (and even official American) legal opinions clearing India of any Cirus-related wrongdoing.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby ShauryaT » 23 Jun 2008 07:22

Rangudu wrote:BJP is posturing here. Everyone and his Uncle knows that. The issue is that Manmohan Singh forced BJP to do that by his trying to take all the credit after J18. That caused BJP to make a hawkish stand and the game of chicken has been going on ever since. They have gone too far now, the BJP. They cannot support this deal without looking silly.

BTW, L.K.Advani has also criticized the "blind anti-Americanism" of the Left parties in opposing this deal. Was he also paid off by the "business lobby"?
R - Instead of depending on DDM to translate, we will be better off to evaluate the statements of these leaders, in their entirety and preferably from direct sources and then make up your mind, if the BJP is posturing, jealous etc on the issue.

The DDM is simply NOT credible.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby svinayak » 23 Jun 2008 07:23

Rangudu wrote:
How about this theory? I think the Chinese government paid these guys to make the death threats and generate sympathy for the Left while conventiently pinning the blame on America.

There is another theory. Nobody takes pain to threaten some few unlucky politicians for some foreign policy which nobody is interested. Maybe this is plan hatched by the communists themselves to get them publicity and some sympathy from the public after the media war of words on the deal.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2008 07:41

What opponents of this deal do not understand is how life will be so much easier after signing the deal. Once the deal is signed it will be possible to say "We are equal to everyone else. Our deterrent works. No need for further testing."

If the deal is not signed then we will lose H&D . Our shaan will lose sheen and we will be forced admit to the entire nation that we are not equal to the world and that our deterrent is equal only to that of Al Qaeda-Pakistan, and that people will have to watch our for testing. Hardest hit will be the aam junta, - the IT crowd who lose their B1 or whatever status can easily tide this over. Infosys-ter auntie will look after them and WIP-RO any tears.

For a nation that was unable to get its nuclear deterrent act together from 1964 when Cheeni test was done to 2008 - it should be the "height of hope" that

a) Some government with balls will accidentally get elected in India
b) That government will have a majority and will not have to ally with "non nationalistic" parties
c) That government, will take a break from escorting terrorists back to their home countries in an Indian Aircraft and actually do a few more simultaneous tests
d) The entire nation will, unlike last time, be happy with the tests conducted by a group of government scientists who have already lost all their credibility for their alleged role since 1998

I would ask that this post of mine be preserved - if necessary by archival on the forum and then rubbed on my face when i am proved wrong so that I will lose my H&D and publicly apologize for being so wrong.

Better sign the deal and continue the conspiracy theory that all is well.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby ShauryaT » 23 Jun 2008 07:47

shiv wrote:Better sign the deal and continue the conspiracy theory that all is well.
Just like, "not a blade of grass grows there" so why bother. Go on be happy. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby John Snow » 23 Jun 2008 07:50

What is the problem in trusting Condi Rice when she saays US will make India super power.
She is not career politician, just like our PM.
We should trust the Americans we both are democracies after all we have been helped with PL 480 funds, they have consistently helped Pakistan even when they betrayed the US and yet US supported them. We should take advantage of this weakness of US and become stead fast partner and become first economic power. Look at PRC, we have to learn a lot from it said Mrs, Sonia ji. It is a very astute observation. Only when you think deeply you undersatnad the state women ship (being PC here).

There is no way we can lose this opportunity of being made super power. Some here argued ( and for while I was swayed by it too, but once enqyoob saar showed the futility of big bums, its all coming back to me now) we can always assemble a big one should we really need even in the eleventh hour, actually we always deliver on eleventh hour. We will never be using these bums any way, see the latest Gandhian Technique of stopping PRC incursions. It works 3 ways.

One deny that it ocurred, this startles the PRC strategists, what they are not interested in fight? so they think 'let us unilaterally withdraw, we taught this lesson to them in 1962".

Two, immidiately protest to PRC so that world comes to know our intent of solving border problems peicefuly.

Three, form human chain like they way we did to british during Salt satyagraha and this stop them in their tracks confused.

The point is Nukes are not the end of the world, because we will never use them, so why invest in them, there is a bigger Bank for the Buck! Called Lichtenstein Bank which our PM likes a lot so does Sonia G. They even rebuffed with great pride the offer of the German Chancellor. Remember Germans are a super power themselves who also bow to US!

So like all the best things it takes time to brew a deal like this, better now than later, at worst we can repent later no? See we still discuss the lost Tibet cause . In way it keeps us ahead of the curve in history lessons and we continue to learn.

Again I am neither for the deal or against the deal. Because I am no big deal!. I missed the boat of floating a company dealing in Power.
Sigh, will do next time when they renegotiate the deal. I missed the Dhabol deal last time also.
Future is bright as ther will be bijlee bin badal and every time we turn on we will thank PM and Congress president.
Jai Hind

PS : very sorry not to mention the savings the PM personally saved the nations exchequer by not including very highly paid Esqs attorneys on our side (in washington) while reading the deal, after all we have nothing to Hyde ( or equal from our side) and our PM believes in self Reliance (Incorporated into his body soul)
Last edited by John Snow on 23 Jun 2008 08:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2008 08:00

John Snow wrote:What is the problem in trusting Condi Rice when she saays US will make India super power.


Why Condi? Bush himself has promised something. He would not tell a lie would he? Besides, even Clinton helped during Kargil - and despite that we allowed Pakistanis to keep hold of Point 5298 (or was it point 4895 or 6547?. Google uncle will give you the correct number)

When America has promised to help India, why should Indians spurn that. I can understand the communists chagrin because China has not offered to help. But others?

The point is Nukes are not the end of the world, because we will never use them


Spot on! Where were the nukes when Jassoo played the gracious host to Masood Azhar and Masood's "other"? Talk of nuke is only hot air - I mean as hot as in conventional explosive. All other talk is fizzle. I agree it may be difficult to swallow that by some people who believed otherwise, but one has to draw the line and accept that a country that

1) cannot develop a deterrent in 50 years
and
2) Did not test at all when everyone was merrily testing

is hardly likely to magically elect a majority government that will suddenly get interested in doing nuclear tests and prove that its own statements in 1998 were a bluff.

Some of these presumptions are really hilarious to me. Sign and be happy. You daughter may have had 200 boyfriends - but she will be virgo intacta when you send out 10,000 wedding invites. That is our culture. Why break it and expose embarrassing facts to all and sundari?

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby svinayak » 23 Jun 2008 08:03

John Snow wrote: Some here argued ( and for while I was swayed by it too, but once enqyoob saar showed the futility of big bums, its all coming back to me now) we can always assemble a big one should we really need even in the eleventh hour, actually we always deliver on eleventh hour. We will never be using these bums any way, see the latest Gandhian Technique of stopping PRC incursions.

This is a conspiracy theory. There is zero proof for this.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2008 08:13

Acharya wrote:
John Snow wrote: Some here argued ( and for while I was swayed by it too, but once enqyoob saar showed the futility of big bums, its all coming back to me now) we can always assemble a big one should we really need even in the eleventh hour, actually we always deliver on eleventh hour. We will never be using these bums any way, see the latest Gandhian Technique of stopping PRC incursions.

This is a conspiracy theory. There is zero proof for this.


I disagree. I am being paid to disagree with you by NPA etc. After all they have reached highest levels on BRF.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Prem » 23 Jun 2008 08:23

Talking about Uncle Sam. USA went to the extent of bombing Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia as warning to them not to enter Kargil conflict on behalf of their dog Pukisatan. 8) Btw anyone has any one seen the content of supposed NSG waiver yet ?

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Neshant » 23 Jun 2008 08:26

> What is the problem in trusting Condi Rice when she saays US will make India super power.

Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme.

Just send in 3 easy payments of 19.99 and we'll make you a superpower.

FYI, US is having a problem retaining their own superpowerdome at present. They are in no position to make anyone a superpower nor is it in their interest to create competition. It is in their interest however to control India's energy security.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby John Snow » 23 Jun 2008 08:27

Shivji said
Why Condi? Bush himself has promised something. He would not tell a lie would he?


It better to tie up with Rice because we are all more familiar with rice no?

besides Prez bush himself said this

"I my not be able to tell you exactly the nuance of the East Timorian situation
But
I'll ask Condi Rice
or I'll ask Paul Wolfwitz
or I'll ask Dick Cheney
I'll ask people who've had experience"

George W. Bush June 15 1999.

Beside George Bush is very disarming as it is they know about our Nukes, we dont want to be disarmed any more no?

Image

Notice the Enter at your risk, Bush is a straight shooter from the hip!

shiv
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2008 08:33

Prem wrote:Talking about Uncle Sam. USA went to the extent of bombing Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia as warning to them not to enter Kargil conflict on behalf of their dog Pukisatan. 8) Btw anyone has any one seen the content of supposed NSG waiver yet ?


You may not have access to all the information here.

The "cover story" is that the Chinese embassy in Kosovo was bombed so that the Chinese would get scared of interfering in Kashmir - in the Kargil conflict. In fact the cover story has been planned really well. the Americans knew by May 9th 1999 all the events that would take place between India and Pakistan from May to July and realised that it would be a great "cover story" for something more important than India.

Chinese help in rocketry to Pakistan and NoKo will put those countries on track for moon missions, competing directly with the US. And what if they aim for Mars later? For that reason the US bombed that embassy in Kosovo and China immediately understood and wound down Pakistan's and NoKo's space plans

(This is not a conspiracy theory)
Last edited by shiv on 23 Jun 2008 08:39, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typos corrected

shiv
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2008 08:36

John Snow wrote:George W. Bush June 15 1999.

Beside George Bush is very disarming as it is they know about our Nukes, we don't want to be disarmed any more no?


Arre John Snow garu. We have no deterrent. How can we be "more disarmed" than zero?

Prem
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Prem » 23 Jun 2008 08:46

shiv wrote:
Prem wrote:Talking about Uncle Sam. USA went to the extent of bombing Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia as warning to them not to enter Kargil conflict on behalf of their dog Pukisatan. 8) Btw anyone has any one seen the content of supposed NSG waiver yet ?


You may not have access to all the information here.

Chinese help in rocketry to Pakistan and NoKo will put those countries on track for moon missions, competing directly with the US. And what if they aim for Mars later? For that reason the US bombed that embassy in Kosovo and China immediately understood and wound down Pakistan's and NoKo's space plans

(This is not a conspiracy theory)


The secret understanding is Uncle gets the Mars ,Jupiter and Plato while PRC is allocated outer Astroid belt along with Sao Tome and Burkina Faso. India as usual is left behind with claim on Sun onlee.

Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Raju » 23 Jun 2008 08:48

India gets Saturn (Shani)

Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Raju » 23 Jun 2008 09:08

Sidhartha's take on this issue has been consistent and seems nearer to the actual conspiracy. Sign nuke deal, make MMS scapegoat, shunt out MMS using communists, elect new PM, prepare Congress for elections with clean image.

CENTRAL GOVT WILL GO AHEAD WITH NUKE DEAL BY JULY 1st WEEK
INDIA IS ABOUT TO HAVE A NEW PRIME MINISTER, VERY SOON!

KARAT-KARUNANIDHI FINALISE STRATEGY TO TOPPLE MANMOHAN
SONIA WILL USE COMMUNISTS’ SHOULDER TO SHOOT MANMOHAN
By P.R.SIDDHARTHA
23 JUNE 2008

CONGRESS ALLIES WANT NEW PRIME MINISTER

Prakash Karat and Karunanidhi met at Chennai and finalised the Nitty-Gritty of the strategy to Topple the Manmohan Singh Government and to install an alternative Central Government headed by another Sonia Loyalist.

The Communists have got all the Congress Allies to agree to dump Manmohan Singh.

The Communists led by Prakash Karat have got Sharad Pawar, Lalu Yadav, Ram Vilas Paswan, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, Shibhu Soren and the One MP Party Leaders to agree to a New Congress Prime Minister.

The Countdown for the Replacement of Manmohan Singh with another Congress Prime Minister has begun.

SONIA WILL GO AHEAD WITH NUCLEAR DEAL

The Congress led UPA Government will go ahead with the U.S. Nuclear Deal at the International Atomic Energy Agency at Vienna before the First Week of July 2008.

Congress President Sonia is committed to the Nuclear Deal.
Sonia will force the Manmohan Government to go ahead with the Nuclear Deal irrespective of the Communist Threat to topple the Government.

Sonia prefers Manmohan continuing until the May 2009 Lok Sabha Elections.

Sonia will install another Prime Minister only if the Communists topple the Manmohan Government.

COMMUNISTS WANT NEW PRIME MINISTER

The Communists are keen that the Nuclear Deal is torpedoed and thereafter Elections are not held.

The Communists are also keen that if the Sonia Congress goes ahead at IAEA with the U.S. Nuclear Deal then the Communists will Topple the Manmohan Government.
The Communists do not want Polls after toppling the Manmohan Government.(this is very important and holds the key)

The Communists want Sonia to install another Prime Minister to prevent Polls before May 2009.

CONGRESS ALLIES AGAINST POLLS BEFORE MAY 2009

The Congress Allies have communicated to Congress President Sonia that early Elections must not be held.

The Samajwadi Party has 39 MPs in Uttar Pradesh. If Elections are held now, Mulayam Singh Yadav’s Samajwadi Party will lose 35 Seats to Mayawati’s Bahujan Samaj Party.

The RJD has 26 MPs in Bihar. If immediate Elections are held the Laloo Yadav’s RJD will lose 25 seats to Nitish Kumar’s Janata Dal (United).

The DMK has 16 MPs in Tamilnadu. The DMK will lose all 16 to Jayalalithaa’s AIADMK if Polls are held now.

The NCP has 10 MPs in Maharashtra. If Polls are held now the Sharad Pawar NCP will lose all the 10 seats to the Shiv Sena-BJP Alliance.

The JMM has 5 MPs. 4 in Jharkhand and 1 in Orissa. If Polls are held now all the 5 seats will be lost to the BJP.

The Communists have 61 MPs. In Kerala the Communists have 19 MPs. In Bengal the Communists have 33 MPs. In immediate Elections the Communists will lose 18 MPs to Mamata Banerji’s Trinamul Congress in Bengal and 9 Seats to the Muslim League-Kerala Congress-Congress Alliance in Kerala. The Communists will lose 4 seats to AIADMK in Tamilnadu.
The Communists will thus lose 31 of the 61 MPs to fall to a low Tally of just 30 MPs.

The Congress Allies in the UPA Central Government do not want Lok Sabha Polls until the schedule date of May 2009.

DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS

ONE: The Nuclear Deal will be a success.
TWO: The Communists will Topple the Manmohan Government.
THREE: Another Sonia Loyalist will be the New Prime Minister.
FOUR: The Lok Sabha Elections will be held in May 2009.

FIVE: The Congress Party will win less than 50 MPs in the May 2009 Lok Sabha Polls.

FINISHLINE

The Sonia Congress has a simple choice.
Lose the Government Now.
Or
Lose the Government in May 2009.

satyarthi
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby satyarthi » 23 Jun 2008 09:12

Johann wrote:The guarantees that nuclear weapons provide are political, not military. But those guarantees are far from comprehensive.

This is much more valid for those countries that don't face an active military threat including nuclear threat to their mainland. This doesn't apply to India.
The world's greatest nuclear power, the Soviet Union found itself first defeated in Afghanistan, and then watched its own political collapse and the demise of the CPSU, which held the trigger. Nukes could do nothing.

I have a strong objection when people imply (not necessarily you) that these kinds of military engagements are "wars". Many of these so called wars are ritual bashings of a minor military player by a big daddy while other big daddies try to queer the pitch. These are military games, not worthy of being termed wars.

In no way Soviet mainland was ever threatened during the Afghanistan conflict. That was just soviets and US supported groups playing around in a 3rd country, while keeping their homesteads secure. Soviets made the choice that costs of using nukes were not justifiable for possible gains in Afghanistan. Their calculations of using nukes would have been vastly different if their mainland had been threatened.

Similarly US is not really fighting a war in Iraq or Afghanistan. These are limited engagements, and bear no direct military threat to US mainland and therefore don't justify using nukes. But if US mainland is ever threatened, would any one wager that US wouldn't consider using nukes?

India's situation is the most unique in the world. India doesn't have the luxury to play those remote controlled military games. Any war that India will fight, either with Pakistan or China, WILL threaten Indian mainland. And both these opponents are nuclear powers, are actively hostile to India and are in cahoots. Any future wars involving India are HIGHLY likely to turn nuclear. This is not the case with other powers that merely engage in remote controlled military engagements in 3rd countries.

India's need for a working nuke arsenal is much more justifiable than most of the P5.
Nuclear weapons only guard against certain, very specific types of threats. In the end the only rationale to acquire them and hold them is that other people have them.

Again this type of thinking is natural for those who live in relatively secure countries. For example, Europe is pretty secure that no nuclear wars are imminent on their lands. Russia, France and UK have arsenals, but there is no foreseeable chance of a nuclear war starting on the soil of any European country.

For India, it is a much more personal. India is in a similar state where Europe and USA were during the cold wars. Just because cold war has ended for Europeans, doesn't automatically mean that India has to pretend that India's nuclear neighborhood also has changed, and automatically accept the same thought processes that may be fashionable in Europe at present.

It is also premature to extrapolate from relatively limited military engagements the world has seen since WWII that nothing big will ever happen. What happens when we find ourselves in WWIII? When countries possessing nukes find their mainlands threatened, would they still think that nukes are just "political" weapons? Once the nuclear genie is out, it can turn very ugly very fast. We are all counting on deterrence holding. But why should only few of the countries be allowed to be militarily prepared for the eventuality when the deterrence breaks down, while India is expected, even by many Indians, to just pray for deterrence to hold.

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Tilak » 23 Jun 2008 09:40

Sidhartha's take on this issue has been consistent and seems nearer to the actual conspiracy. Sign nuke deal, make MMS scapegoat, shunt out MMS using communists, elect new PM, prepare Congress for elections with clean image.

CENTRAL GOVT WILL GO AHEAD WITH NUKE DEAL BY JULY 1st WEEK
INDIA IS ABOUT TO HAVE A NEW PRIME MINISTER, VERY SOON!

KARAT-KARUNANIDHI FINALISE STRATEGY TO TOPPLE MANMOHAN
SONIA WILL USE COMMUNISTS’ SHOULDER TO SHOOT MANMOHAN
By P.R.SIDDHARTHA


Raju ji,

No offense, but who is this P.R. Siddhartha (background, site name, attribution ) ?, may be we could request him to post here as well and see where he is coming from, since the link has not been forthcoming. On top of that, isn't there enough on the plate already from "reputed sources" and DDM journos, if it were to come to hammering the issue with their "own stick".

The reason why I'm bringing up this issue is, because it is causing distraction (and you could do the same, if you find mine and I will follow up) to the flow. If somebody were to post stuff from IndiaDaily.com with special correspondents such as "Babu Ghanta" and stories like "Who transported 7 million tons of earth soil to Mars?" , what do you suggest I do ? or is there a recourse.

TIA.

Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Postby Raju » 23 Jun 2008 09:58

Tilak ji, Siddhartha Reddy was a correspondent and columnist of Asian Age and advisor and a close associate of former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and was also a member of the national executive of the BJP.


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