Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 03 Jul 2008 09:30

Ramanaji, are there explicit references to India being dragged into the FMCT as part of NSG/123 agreements? I don't recall it being discussed on these threads.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2008 09:55

Sorry the refs are in Hyde.

enqyoob wrote: What happens then, I wonder. India signs with all the NSG, but no deal with US?

I too wondered and think the loss of face for US will be much more severe than when it failed to ratify CTBT and gives India an opening.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jul 2008 12:20

The PM's "committment " to George Bush appears from his statements to be more important than his loyalty to even his party chief,Sonia Gandhi, as well as the nation through assurances earlier promised to Parliament.

Therefore,let him resign and migrate to the US!

For Sonia it will also be a blessing as she can shed ancient baggage like MMS and bring in a new PM and younger leadership which is what the party needs if it is to survive the next election.

[Edited to remove flippant references to the Prime Minister - Suraj]

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 03 Jul 2008 14:11

Not too long ago when I was a newbee at BRF, IIRC Philip-saar was the BRF Admin. That was when Pravda dropped dead in Russia from its high days of Communism.

Then there was this joke when a Russian and Amrikhan went to a bar and bragged of greatness of their respective nations and the freedom of expression. The Amrikhan said there is so much freedom of expression in USA that "I could go on the street and denounce Amerikhan president". The Ruski said: "So what is so great about that, even I could walk on the Kremlin streets and denounce Amerikhan president!"

Not sure if the Russki knew what he was talking about? Or ever read beyond communist manifesto to contemplate Animal Farm.

Shri Rabindranath Tagore's poem is an inspiration:

Where The Mind is Without Fear

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

Back to the lawful news reporting thread.

amit · Post by **amit** » 03 Jul 2008 14:32

Rahul, Kati,

I agree with both of you.

What I meant, simply, was that Jyoti Basu at least makes a pretence of shedding his party's pro-China tilt publicly - I'm not saying he does not have such a tilt. It's worth remembering that his opposition to the Nuclear deal has never been so blatantly anti-American, rather it's been from the point of view that India doesn't need N-power. And I'm sure he'd never attend a Shia-only rally against a US President.

Karat is so unpetrubed by the allegation that he's batting for China that his nonchalence takes my breadth away.

And Kati, I agree with you the new generation CPI(M) leaders in WB are less China centric than their previous generation bosses. I would rank Buddhadev among them.

Cheers!

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 03 Jul 2008 14:38

John Snow wrote:

Ha the puranas after all are right, all this wheeling and dealing is mentioned in the
Narayaneyam, so this deal is pushed by Narayanan in NSA, in USA, and in maya world of Cyber space.

Narayanam, Anatham, Achutam, Adbhutam Ascharyavadam, samvaadam.!

Narayaneyam:

Admins: May delete this post if considered nonrelevant.

Curious to learn more about Narayaneeyam, I did a Google search and found the "completenaayaneeyam" site at this link (http://sanskritdocuments.org/sites/comp ... htm?conn=B). By selecting Dasakam 55 from the "Control Panel" in the web page, those of you who are inteested in John Snow's quote above may see and hear Shlokams 1 to 10 of "Kaliya Madhanam" (Krishna's Dance on Kaliya) of The Naayaneeyam.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Jul 2008 15:15

India can't help Egypt in its nuke programme: Mukherjee

"India cannot cooperate with any country in nuclear matter as we are not signatory to the NPT," visiting External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee told reporters emerging from a 90-minute meeting with his Egyptian counterpart Abul Gheit.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jul 2008 18:14

Have we in BR lost our sense of humour? I'm amused that my "flippant remark" about the top man who is policing the nation,has been censored.Well,in the era of political correctness that is plaguing democracies these days,especially in the mother of democracies most of all,humour in politics and satire are fast becoming extinct.Nevertheless,there is a strong conservation movement for these noble virtues in our part of the world,as I happily learnt during my travels after meeting some well known scribes.So one shall plough on,happy in the knowledge that one is not alone.A remark was made in Blighty that Pak journos were far more severe in their criticism of their leaders than their compatriots in India many of whom "swing with the wind".It made me sit up and think.I now compare the two countries.Perhaps "Blighty" was right after all.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 03 Jul 2008 18:22

Amit: Shifting the discussion here from the poll thread per ramana: Numbers inserted by me.

I’m just trying to visualise certain scenarios that could crop up once the deal is signed.
(And yes, going by the developments I think this deal is going to be signed, whether by this government or the next – and will be signed without many major changes).
On one end of the spectrum we have a situation that will arise out of an Indian test at some near future date. That would immediate mean all cooperation with the US ceases as per Hyde. (15-20 years down the line it doesn’t matter a fish what the US thinks).
(1) At the other end we could have a situation where we become a firm camp follower of the US and replace Englishstan (CORRECTION: That should be "POODLESTAN") and Kangaroostan as the main lapdog. (A fear which our friendly neighbourhood Comrades** have, if I may add).
In-between these two extremes is where IMHO all the action with take place.
India will perforce order some reactors and other scary looking stuff from the US but the main business will be with the Ruskies and the Frenchies with some business going to the Maple Leaf wallas and off course we buy the yellow cake from Kangaroostan. And all this for the Civilian side. (The MRCA contract OTOH could go the Uncle Sam).
Doesn’t the US see through this? Then what’s in it for the US, why are they pushing so hard?
(2) They know India is going to end its nuclear isolation sooner or later – it’s a fiat accomplice.
Now if they could be seen to helping an outcome that was bound to happen in any case, the US gets that much leverage, again in IMVHO. As long as this leverage does not translate into nasty things like kowtowing to US policy on Iran etc. then I really don’t see why there should be a big worry? (3) Please also note that kowtowing to the US can occur even without the N deal, if the government of the day wants it. If I remember correctly we almost sent troops to Iraq didn’t we? Just to jog a few memories here’s a link (4) It needs to be remembered no government in India – even a Nationalist one - can really afford to be seen as kowtowing a US line as the soldiers for Iraq affair showed very clearly.
I personally think India is sufficiently strong, both economically and politically to be able to face any eventuality that can come in the future. And it’s worth remembering, IMVHO again, that (5) if we test – again in the near future - we will suffer sanctions, deal or no deal. And this time the suffering will be much more severe than it was in 1998 due to the changed nature of our economy that increase globalisation has brought about. I’m afraid anyone who thinks otherwise is rather off track with realities.

Point (1): I share the Comrades' (of all colors, green thru red) concerns there. Point (3) says why, and is a very scary reminder, unless I figure that it was all Maya - charade, or safely-practised tightrope-walking that resulted in joint exercises, joint naval patrolling etc without making any blunders like sending troops into Eyerak. As "globalization" proceeds. India is fast turning into the worst model of a US corporation - mindless authoritarianism in the name of "development". The judiciary is not developing at 1/100th the pace of corporate "free enterprise", and people have forgotten why Communism actually became popular in India in the first place. BUT.. as you say, this can happen, and IS happening, without the nuke deal. The only thing worse than an mindless desi bureaucrat is a mindless desi corporate "customer service manager" who answers the phone in a phony (is that how the term originated?) American accent saying: "This is Frank, how may I help you? ". He just ain't. When I get banned from BRF, I plan to go join the "FOIL".

All of which leads back to Point (2). India is going to "end its nuclear isolation" any day now, and the US is thoughtfully terrified of this prospect. This goes back to the terror that I described before. Like you say, they can figure out without any help that the NPT is a racist, incompetent and sinking treaty with bigger holes than the Titanic. With the China-Pakistan-North Korea - Iran scams now public, and Israel's nuclear weapon status now confirmed, how long should they expect India to continue being "well-behaved"? Also, Japan is probably on the verge of conducting a few experiments.

Let's go back to the 1960s and consider how the NPT came to be. The US proliferated to UQ (well-known fact) and probably to France, to reassure them and reduce US troop commitments in Oirope against Germany and Soviet Union. Without nukes in Oirope, it would have been impossible to maintain US troop strength enough to prevent Western Oirope becoming Communist. Soviet Union helping China get started on nuke weapons was probably a result of the Korean War.
But with China becoming a nuke weapon power, and India with a well-developed nuke program, the writing was on the wall - if India went nuclear, others would follow suit, and in short order, the world would have 20 nuclear weapon powers. So NPT was a desperate scam. India was in no position in 1966 to pour massive investment into nuclear weapons - the 62 and 65 wars had left India broke, desperately needing conventional weapons, but also facing famine. All these fine Monday Evening Quarterbacks criticizing the leaders of that time for not setting off nukes then, are displaying the same fine logic that led them to destroy the BENIS threads.

But even at the start, everyone could see that the NPT was terribly flawed. It was held together only because the US and Russia controlled the technology, and were powerful enough to destroy any upstarts. So they have been scrambling to try and cobble together other versions of NPT. Like "nuclear-free zones" - there is one involving Japan, Mongolia and parts of Siberia, and they have been trying to con India and Pakistan into some similar deal.

Where is all this leading? If India comes into this deal, then they can bring about NPT-2 including India, except they won't call it that. I don't see how China will accept a P-6 designation for India without a parallel one for Pakistan, but it is just possible that China can be persuaded with suitable incentives (like Japan won't go nuclear and Taiwan won't have a nuclear umbrella).

The fear is really rising every day, because its another day that AQ Khan's centrifuges in Al Qaeda's caves churn out some more enriched stuff, and some more "leakage" occurs from plants all over the world.

I am not saying that legitimate fear is the only driving US/NSG interest, but it is real and has to be recognized, to keep us from making mistakes due to paranoia. This is what leads to the "atom-counting" goals that some of our co-postors here Pu_Pu.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Jul 2008 20:05

I am in sympathy with Philip, admins are now more remotely controlled by Mavericks of the world in cyber space who denounce the BR ,and our admins are more to please them than think through things.

The stature of PM of India in no ways diminishes when a lowly ordinary cyber poster calls him name. At most the other members will understand, to take note or leave the poster to himself. Ofcourse there will always be limits in the latitude not by virtue of personality involved but the vocabulary used to describe the true potential of the personality himself /herself.

The admins deterent lies in not using censorship, but by comenting "Is that necessary?", upon which any sensible poster would beat a hasty retreat!

"Respect is often comanded, but seldom earned, Respect sought is good given unsought is better."
Spinster Uvacha

Switching gears to consipiracy theory denouncers and proponents, here is something to chew.
Consipiracy is evil or benevolent depending on who benefits from the actions, but they do ahppen and exist. When they dont happen (to be proven) they are theories to laugh about other wise it just goes as mission accomplished in history.

SO here we go on a happy note

U.S. hostages home after 5 years in jungle (read more in CNN)

But many may not know that an Indian American was instrumental in this effort by working as a operative of CIA, which I came to know few minutes ago, actually he is being facilitated by Presidential candidate John McCain. I know him personally as he is very active in the community raising funds for Asha foundation!

Who knows how many unsung Indian Americans are behind this great deal which will put India on the road to super power, well lighted by Halogen lamps, neon signs and brighten our lives through low power consuming green technology of LE(a)D blubs.

The power to India flows from the many such unsung Indians Desis , videsi, and desi videsi, not Just
not just PMs and resident Indians be it on any payrol.
I am now inclined to believe anybody who questions the PM is a traitor himself and disruptive powers working at the behest of commies and anti nationals.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Jul 2008 21:39

Philip: This is not about lacking a sense of humour. It is also not about not permitting folks to criticize the PM's actions. I'm sure you can make a point about your feelings about the PM's actions without calling him "Constable Singh" and why you think he would do better as "a butler in Bush's ranch". I specifically edited out those parts, and otherwise left your criticism intact. What does that tell you ?

When someone who's been around as long as you have, choses to write that way, it merely encourages those who've been around far less to resort to even worse language. Successive avatars of this thread have in many ways reflected the extent to which debate on this forum has fallen. Without attempting to address such posts, it cannot be improved.

John Snow: there is no need to accuse me or any other mod of doing Sunil's bidding. I dont know him, and I've already explained my reasoning above.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 03 Jul 2008 21:47

ShauryaT wrote:
ramana wrote:I have waited for so many threads for the PMO to assert the supreme national interests clause for the right to test. Now lets hear it in Lok Sabha.
ramana: That phrase can mean many things. In my view, there is a big difference in the approach, when this PMO says, we may test, if the "supreme national interest" calls for it as opposed to LKA saying, we will not shy away from a test, if needed.

Also, I will not bother to point the number of lies in the statement from Narayanan, folks who have read all the background agreements, know what they are.

The difference could be in your mind and your defination of trustworthy character?

Lies?

vina · Post by **vina** » 03 Jul 2008 21:58

The deal will get done. Samajwadi Party has come out in support of it, hiding behind APJ Kalam. Hats off to Manmohan Singh. He has shown strong leadership here. He did not throw in the towel, persevered and finally is getting his way in making sure that the deal, which is vitally important to India's national interest is done.

The BJP should stop playing politics , now that the govt has the numbers, and should come out openly in support of the deal as they normally would have and we should go to the IAEA and the world powers with the full backing and support of the majority of the Indian polity. The left will of course be left behind.. ha ha.. they can go suck their thumbs. I have no respect for those cretins. They were obsessed far more on hurting GW Bush and making him look bad, rather than look at India's interest. Talk about cutting your nose to spite yourself.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2008 22:15

ShauryaT, Those specfic words have a certain meaning for the P-5. The very words are used to over ride CTBT obligatiosn. This is first time the PMO is saying htose explicitly usig terminology used by P-5. Till now these words were never articulated. So they have some significane. hence i want them said in Lok Sabha. Amar Singh didnt know the significance of those words for he wanted the statement in Parliament or outside. But still he was able to extract those words.

N^3 and Amit those are things to consider. And now read KS articles to see what he thinks.

Vina, So India has its color revolution willy nilly and quite peaceful too! Never would have thought the Left would write their own fade off so non-violently.

Also folks reflect on how long the subaltern movements will get support from abroad once India is defacto nuke power. Doesnt bode well for couting atoms. So they will also exeunt.

And Katare dont taunt. If you can argue do so. No one liners.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 03 Jul 2008 22:20

vina wrote:The deal will get done. Samajwadi Party has come out in support of it, hiding behind APJ Kalam. .

I read that the price they want to extract is Chidambaram's resignation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2008 22:37

Which one? If its the FM he is the dreanm budget walla and will send wrong signal to the markets! The other one is anyway retired and should be allowed to recite the Vishnu Sahasranama.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Jul 2008 22:58

Gentlemen, it is now official.

NSG: Nuclear Suppliers Group
NSG: Numbers Supplier Group

Numbers Suppliers Group aka the ones who lobbied the Samajwadi Party.

the driving force behind both these NSGs is the same lobby. Transnational business interests are promoting the deal with both NSGs. So much was announced at Karan Thapar's show tonight by none other than the Chief Editor of the Hindustan Times Shri Vinod Sharma. He was accompanied by the Editor of The Telegraph Smt Malini Chatterjee when he made this stunning revelation.

Apparently it was also disclosed during the very same discussion by the very same person who revealed the above that RIL's ability to export entire quota of refined products was cleared in the Govt by none other than Shri P. Chidambaram. And during a meeting at the G6 (Group of 6 developing countries) this fact was raised there that amongst developing countries such refiners should not be allowed to export entire output to prevent supply scarcity. And for this Samajwadi Party demands Sri P. Chidambaram's resignation as he was found to be supporting Mukesh Ambani openly in this regard to the consternation of his brother Anil Ambani, considered very close to Samajwadi Party.

So speculation in BRF on this front wasn't without reason afterall. Someone please buy Acharya a lunch.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 03 Jul 2008 23:03

The much-despised DDM become the fountains of truth and honesty when they say the "right" things.

What is so suspicious about the FM heading to economic summits like G-6? Would people feel better if it was the Railway minister who gets sent to economic summits?

These are the same professionals in the Indian media that reported about Johann S. Bach was running through the jungle at the ripe old age of 283 years, when he was caught selling pirated classical music of Mozart and his other competitors in Goa (or something equally accurate).

It is always wonderful to see such clearheaded analysis of such events on BR.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2008 23:07

We do that all the time! What makes you think he still posts here? its not the love for him that some folks dsplay for him!

He figured out a couple of years ago that group dynamics that was driving the Indian elite and the interlocutors with the West and put it on a ppt chart to make simple folks undestand. And even the greats were impressed when they saw the draft!

What more interesting is he saw how the paradigm can be broken and is working on it.

You got to listen to the message and not the messenger. Get rid of the bias filter to use Radio Comm language.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Jul 2008 23:09

Vinod Sharma is extremely pro-Congress. Also the favorite to appear on DD talk shows and analysis. So is as sarkari as it gets.

For him to come out and say this means a lot. I guess even Karan Thapar was slightly put off balance.

He was expecting a US, pro-Govt cheerleading session.

& FM has not gone to G-6. Whoever went to G-6 was lectured thus by the delegates there. This was then picked up by Samajwadi Party to harangue Govt on RIL.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 03 Jul 2008 23:14

Listening to messages from unreliable messengers makes for worthless analysis usually, but I guess we can lower the bar hereabouts.

I mean, if that is the case, why not listen to Shirreen Mazari's messages ignoring the messenger?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Jul 2008 23:15

messengers are not unreliable baba, it is just the message. Sometimes wrong messengers say the right things. It all depends upon the situation at hand.

I mean, if that is the case, why not listen to Shirreen Mazari's messages ignoring the messenger?

always listen to her. her irritations convey a lot. And sometimes she speaks the truth too whenever it doesn't hurt either her or her mentors interests. One just need to be aware which way the wind is blowing.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Jul 2008 23:18

Raju wrote:Gentlemen, it is now official.

NSG: Nuclear Suppliers Group
NSG: Numbers Supplier Group

Numbers Suppliers Group aka the ones who lobbied the Samajwadi Party.

the driving force behind both these NSGs is the same lobby. Transnational business interests are promoting the deal with both NSGs. So much was announced at Karan Thapar's show tonight by none other than the Chief Editor of the Hindustan Times Shri Vinod Sharma. He was accompanied by the Editor of The Telegraph Smt Malini Chatterjee when he made this stunning revelation.

Apparently it was also disclosed during the very same discussion by the very same person who revealed the above that RIL's ability to export entire quota of refined products was cleared in the Govt by none other than Shri P. Chidambaram. And during a meeting at the G6 (Group of 6 developing countries) this fact was raised there that amongst developing countries such refiners should not be allowed to export entire output to prevent supply scarcity. And for this Samajwadi Party demands Sri P. Chidambaram's resignation as he was found to be supporting Mukesh Ambani openly in this regard to the consternation of his brother Anil Ambani, considered very close to Samajwadi Party.

So speculation in BRF on this front wasn't without reason afterall. Someone please buy Acharya a lunch.

Somebody said it is a conspiracy theory.
I am trying to count how many people owe me lunch here and at my work.

Ambani fued it affecting Indian economy and Indian foriegn policy and also its security policy.
PC told some few years ago that India needs both Ambanis together and not like this. They need to resolve their differences. We may have to get their mother into this.

The political parties supported by these two brothers are feuding. PC used to bring them together for many policies but now he being sacrificed for the larger interest of larger group.
The group which setup this deal is using ALL means to get this done at any cost.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 03 Jul 2008 23:21

Raju wrote:

messengers are not unreliable baba, it is just the message. Sometimes wrong messengers say the right things. It all depends upon the situation at hand.

The question really is what is the "right thing"? stuff you like to hear even if false in reality, or stuff that stands up to scrutiny from different angles?

This kind of analysis based on selective picking of facts from dubious sources is worth its weight in cowdung, I am sorry to say.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Jul 2008 23:24

Rye, I am not arguing over your interpretation of who is a dubious source and who isn't.

let's say the Editor of Washington Post or NYT came and said things and someone said that they were dubious sources.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 03 Jul 2008 23:25

ramana wrote:Which one? If its the FM he is the dreanm budget walla and will send wrong signal to the markets! The other one is anyway retired and should be allowed to recite the Vishnu Sahasranama.

The dream budget one. It was stated clearly as such in the print edition today with the added notes that it would be beneficial going to the polls to take the sting out of the anti-incumbancy/sky-high inflation factors.

I can only find the denial online now. I guess that makes it official then

To a question, Amar Singh said his party has not demanded removal of Union Ministers P Chidambaram and Murli Deora in return for its support to the government but added it was for the UPA to decide whether to retain ministers who are responsible for rising prices of essential commodities and petroleum products.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 03 Jul 2008 23:29

A source can be considered dubious if that point of view is not mirrored by one or more parties with divergent interests from the source. it has nothing to do with personal preferences.

Seema Mustafa got it all wrong when she analyzed pakistan and her biases back then were obvious -- there is nothing to indicate that she went to a re-education camp or was convinced to change her view of the world to suddenly proclaim her and MJ Akbar as some sort of truth-telling oracle as has been done here.

Anyway, Last post on this thread. Sorry to intrude in all the fine analysis on this thread.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Jul 2008 00:21

ramana wrote:ShauryaT, Those specfic words have a certain meaning for the P-5. The very words are used to over ride CTBT obligatiosn. This is first time the PMO is saying htose explicitly usig terminology used by P-5. Till now these words were never articulated. So they have some significane. hence i want them said in Lok Sabha. Amar Singh didnt know the significance of those words for he wanted the statement in Parliament or outside. But still he was able to extract those words.

N^3 and Amit those are things to consider. And now read KS articles to see what he thinks.

Vina, So India has its color revolution willy nilly and quite peaceful too! Never would have thought the Left would write their own fade off so non-violently.

Also .

Surpsingly , some sort of color revolution to discredit the Left in India was predicted on BR 2 years ago .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jul 2008 02:49

Editorial Deccan Chronicle, 4 july 2008

A deft move by Mulayam

The Samajwadi Party led by Mulayam Singh Yadav, by going to seek an "impartial"opinion from former President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, who before his elevation to thecountry's highest office was well known as one of India's top nuclear scientists, and is now one of the most articulate votaries of the Indo-US nuclear deal, not merely kept to its course of moving closer to the Congress and the UPA government, but virtually played a charade on its partners in the United National Progressive Alliance.

Dr Kalam's views on the nuclear deal was well known: he has said over and over again that the civilian nuclear cooperation agreement with the United States was in the "national interest." Mulayam Singh Yadav took his UNPA allies for a ride by heading for the former President's residence immediately after the UNPA meeting was over on Thursday afternoon. Interestingly, by going to Dr Kalam and seeking his counsel on the deal, Mr Yadav has managed to deftly deflect the accusation put forward by his arch political rival, Uttar Pradesh chief minister and Bahujan Samaj Party chief Mayawati, that the American deal was "anti-Muslim."

This was a masterstroke delivered by the wily regional satrap of Uttar Pradesh, Mulayam Singh Yadav. The Samajwadi Party will now try to send out the signal that the deal was being supported by none other than Dr Kalam, a Muslim himself. The inference is now possible that the Samajwadi Party will go ahead and announce its support to the Manmohan Singh government, albeit with certain conditions.

We may safely assume that the Samajwadis will ensure the UPA's survival, after the likely pullout by the Left parties, and also try to pre-empt early Lok Sabha elections. While the UPA government's survival looks a little more assured at this juncture, it is known that the Congress itself is also sharply divided on the nuclear deal, and its second-rung leaders are unhappy that the government and the deal are being saved at the expense of the Left parties.

The Samajwadi Party's "rescue operation", in the eyes of many Congressmen, is suspect because of its unreliable and unpredictable track record. However, both the outfits, struggling in Uttar Pradesh, feel that the political formula being blended before the general elections could stun the charge of the blue elephant and the lotus brigade, also working frantically to make its presence felt.

I understand the need for political parties to get cover for their shenanigans but to call Dr. APJ Kalam, as top nuclear scientist is great terminalogical inexactitude. And the Editorial to repeat is a mark of dorkiness.

satyarthi · Post by **satyarthi** » 04 Jul 2008 03:04

Since Congress and SP are trying to use Dr. Kalam's good name, the communists may be tempted to malign him. Since communists played a major role in not getting him nominated for the second presidential term, they can claim that Dr. Kalam is peeved at them.

archan · Post by **archan** » 04 Jul 2008 03:53

satyarthi wrote:Since Congress and SP are trying to use Dr. Kalam's good name, the communists may be tempted to malign him. Since communists played a major role in not getting him nominated for the second presidential term, they can claim that Dr. Kalam is peeved at them.

But they aren't saying anything that he isn't, are they? they are just adding weight to their 'decisionmaking'. I found it amusing that Mayawati found a way to communalise even this issue. Our politicians are geniuses.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 04 Jul 2008 04:43

archan wrote:
satyarthi wrote:Since Congress and SP are trying to use Dr. Kalam's good name, the communists may be tempted to malign him. Since communists played a major role in not getting him nominated for the second presidential term, they can claim that Dr. Kalam is peeved at them.
But they aren't saying anything that he isn't, are they? they are just adding weight to their 'decisionmaking'. I found it amusing that Mayawati found a way to communalise even this issue. Our politicians are geniuses.

Is there a plan to put a muslim as a puppet PM.

archan · Post by **archan** » 04 Jul 2008 05:41

paramu wrote:
archan wrote: But they aren't saying anything that he isn't, are they? they are just adding weight to their 'decisionmaking'. I found it amusing that Mayawati found a way to communalise even this issue. Our politicians are geniuses.
Is there a plan to put a muslim as a puppet PM.

Is that supposed to be a question directed towards me? What do you mean? And please, go easy on religion, just a request. A Muslim can be a great PM, just like one was a great President.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 04 Jul 2008 05:51

Acharya wrote:
Raju wrote:Gentlemen, it is now official.

NSG: Nuclear Suppliers Group
NSG: Numbers Supplier Group

Numbers Suppliers Group aka the ones who lobbied the Samajwadi Party.

the driving force behind both these NSGs is the same lobby. Transnational business interests are promoting the deal with both NSGs. So much was announced at Karan Thapar's show tonight by none other than the Chief Editor of the Hindustan Times Shri Vinod Sharma. He was accompanied by the Editor of The Telegraph Smt Malini Chatterjee when he made this stunning revelation.

Apparently it was also disclosed during the very same discussion by the very same person who revealed the above that RIL's ability to export entire quota of refined products was cleared in the Govt by none other than Shri P. Chidambaram. And during a meeting at the G6 (Group of 6 developing countries) this fact was raised there that amongst developing countries such refiners should not be allowed to export entire output to prevent supply scarcity. And for this Samajwadi Party demands Sri P. Chidambaram's resignation as he was found to be supporting Mukesh Ambani openly in this regard to the consternation of his brother Anil Ambani, considered very close to Samajwadi Party.

So speculation in BRF on this front wasn't without reason afterall. Someone please buy Acharya a lunch.
Somebody said it is a conspiracy theory.
I am trying to count how many people owe me lunch here and at my work.

Ambani fued it affecting Indian economy and Indian foriegn policy and also its security policy.
PC told some few years ago that India needs both Ambanis together and not like this. They need to resolve their differences. We may have to get their mother into this.

The political parties supported by these two brothers are feuding. PC used to bring them together for many policies but now he being sacrificed for the larger interest of larger group.
The group which setup this deal is using ALL means to get this done at any cost.

Satyam Eva Jayatey.
Truth always reigns supreme, no matter how many times the E-bunnies cry "conspiracy theory".

Life is like a school. Trying to teach Calculus to 5th graders learning Math and Enliglish, will only confuse the 5th graders to wonder if Calculus is English, Math or simply mumbo jumbo passing as literary work. One has to grow through years of study before Calculus makes sense serve useful base for serious science and engineering.

As I sometimes say, listen to this man, at first it may seem outland-ish, but after one has spent 10,000 hours of serious homework reading, one finds that this man is a genius. It truly is a result of effort of a lifetime that requires prodigious memory, voracious reading and sharp intellect.

I can vouch to say that there are more of such "Reality Check" on the way as things unfold in India and world.

Thanks Acharya for being with us.

More power to Revenge of the Nerds.
and think twice before dismissing a system of calculus equations as merely a "conspiracy theory".

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 04 Jul 2008 06:21

Arun S, Acharya Raju et al

Switching gears to consipiracy theory denouncers and proponents, here is something to chew.
Consipiracy is evil or benevolent depending on who benefits from the actions, but they do happen and exist. When they dont happen (to be proven) they are theories to laugh about other wise ,it just goes as mission accomplished in history.

SO here we go on a happy note

U.S. hostages home after 5 years in jungle (read more in CNN)

But many may not know that an Indian American was instrumental in this effort by working as a operative of CIA, which I came to know few minutes ago, actually he is being facilitated by Presidential candidate John McCain. I know him personally as he is very active in the community raising funds for Asha foundation!

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Jul 2008 06:41

Let us for time being assume that NSG or a third party has bribed SP and others to support the deal, my question is how does that matter ?

The main question still would be : Is the Deal beneficial to India and her interests ?

I have no issues with our BABUS or political parties taking bribe or eating money they would make that money DEAL/No DEAL as long as they are sensible enough to make decisions which are in interest of the country we should be fine.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jul 2008 06:48

Folks there is more than one color revolution going on. By now every one is aware of the self-marginalization of the left. The other hidden one but going full steam ahead is the tussle between the Well -off Traditional Indians (WTI) and the Well-off Modern Indians(WMI) with their sub-set of DIE. The WTI (those who go to iftaar parties but wont let anyone come to Diwali parties and had stalled Jagjivan Ram's accession) are the core of the INC and used to shelter in the INC umbrella with the WMI holding it up. Now the price that SP is demanding could shake the whole umbrella structure for he wants national status. In the UNPA, CBN is shaken up with the adamant attitude of SP. For starters as to what can SP do, he has put Kalam saheb in the sectrain bucket and no one is protesting. One who was known as Kalam Iyer! Once again UP has become the key. The NRI groups are rallying to SP aid (thats what Amar singh was doing in US for three weeks) as they think its now or never. INC wanted SP support in case Left withdraws and the price is too steep for it might mean irrelevance in the long run. Looks like deal sign karenge but no faida. And INC deal stalwarts are being asked to be sacrificed as good faith. The WTI are shaken and looking like headless chickens!
Then there is business family feud going on in the Ambani family. Very touchy.

Off course its all ishara and CT for those who think it is.

eg. Deccan Chronicle is saying in op-ed

mind you he was so pro-deal it was pathetic!

And a picture is worth a thousand words

Are we wasting time on a dead nuke deal?
By S. Viswam

The impending Left pullout over the nuclear deal generated much frenzied activity in the national capital last week giving the impression of the entire political class mobilising itself to face a catastrophe in the offing. While the Congress and its allies were preoccupied with saving the government and the deal, the thoughts of other parties were focused the likelihood or otherwise of a November-December Lok Sabha poll.

However, at one level the ongoing political contention-cum-confrontation-cum-confusion seemed to be superfluous and unnecessary since the Indian and American officialdom seem working at cross-purposes in so far as the firming up of the deal is concerned. One cannot avoid the conclusion that the Indian side may have queered the pitch for the Americans in this respect by inordinately delaying the process of evolving a political consensus supportive of the deal.

If the deal is already “dead,“ as numerous American officials, diplomats and politicians claim, then Indians seem to be wasting their time in fruitless arguments. More Americans have said that it is too late for the deal than those who have hinted that it may still be possible to push it through before President Bush’s second tenure at the White House ends. In India, it is Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself who is strategising the time-table for getting the deal through. And, he seems to think that it can sail through successfully if it reaches US Congress by the end of September.

The Congress-UPA is proceeding on the assumption that the timing of the Lok Sabha poll is intimately linked with the timing of the deal’s finalisation, and that the polls can be called immediately after the formalities with the International Atomic Energy Agency and the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group are completed. However, fears are mounting that the Indian calculations could be wrong.

New Delhi obviously hopes that since there has been broad agreement with the IAEA over the terms and conditions of the regimen of safeguards for the Indian reactors, the draft agreement will be ratified by the IAEA’s governing board in a day or two. However, this assumption seems too optimistic since negotiations over concluding a mandatory India-IAEA additional protocol have yet to begin. This exercise could delay New Delhi’s approach to the NSG for sanctioning nuclear trade and commerce.

New Delhi is also assuming that clearance from the NSG is only a formality. Prime Minister’s special envoy Shyam Saran said as much earlier this week. However, his optimism is not shared by the Americans. Executive director of the Washington-based Arms Control Association Daryl G. Kimball has warned that the NSG will take its own time, that it will want satisfactory answers on crucial nuclear non-proliferation issues from both New Delhi and Washington and that it will impose conditions and restrictions on nuclear trade with India that parallel or exceed the Hyde Act.

Mr Kimball also did not sound hopeful on the US Congress ratifying the 123 Agreement (nuclear deal) in a hurry and without closely examining whether or not it is consistent with the Hyde Act. The latest subscriber to the “it is too late” lobby is Congressman Gary Ackerman, chairman of the House of Representatives panel on West and South Asia. Mr Ackerman, a supporter of the deal, is on a visit to India to assess whether or not the Indians are serious about it. But his understanding is that the time has already run out for getting US Congressional support for the deal during the Bush administration. “The clock has run out,” he has said, ”on our side of the border, because the clock has run out on their (India) side.”

Early this week, state department spokesman Tom Casey warned that the time was fast running out for the deal since the US political and legislative calendars permits no more negotiating time. However, he felt that the Bush administration would make every effort to push it through the Congress during the Bush administration’s tenure. American officialdom and political class involved in the deal and supporting it, however, have reservations over New Delhi’s links with Iran, and more specifically over the India’s pursuit of the India-Pakistan-Iran pipe line. “I have a very difficult time,” Mr Ackerman told a Congressional hearing, “understanding why the government of India continues to pursue the pipe line.” Iran could hold up India’s nuclear deal if the anti-Iran lobby in the US wants to be cussed.

Fears of a delay on the American side have combined with the fears at home of the Congress-UPA”s capacity to complete the full term in office and adhere to the normal May-June 2009 deadline for the Lok Sabha polls. The Samajwadi Party has waved the green flag in so far as its propping up the government after the Left pullout is concerned. But the Congress is learning fast that the SP support is not free or cheap or large-hearted.

The SP is dictating terms, including the ouster from the Union Cabinet of some ministers supposed to be responsible for the rising rate of inflation and for hiking fuel prices. Besides, the SP is insisting on the Prime Minister making a statement to Parliament explaining why the nuclear deal should be supported. The Prime Minister has already assured that he will come to Parliament after negotiations with the IAEA and NSG are completed, but the SP demand is motivated by the party’s desire to tell the world that it would support the deal only after satisfying itself that it is in national interest.

To what extent the SP will go in getting its pound of flesh is yet to be seen, but the Congress-UPA apple-cart can shake and the Prime Minister’s time-table get upset in case the SP unduly stretches its self-education agenda beyond an acceptable time-frame. After getting briefed on the deal’s potential for strengthening energy security by national security adviser Narayanan, SP general secretary Amar Singh said that his party cannot approve the deal till the Prime Minister assures the nation publicly. This line enables the SP to keep the option of supporting the government without supporting the deal in order to keep its Third Front colleagues happy by convincing them that support to the government is only to keep “the communal forces at bay”, a position that motivated the Left too to support the UPA.

The Left rejected the Prime Minister’s offer to bring the deal before Parliament after he is allowed to complete the negotiation process with the IAEA and the NSG. The rejection was on the ground that the deal would be a fait accompli by then and it would be impossible to prevent its operationalisation. The Left’s point is well taken. Even the “borderline” domestic opposition would fade once the IAEA and the NSG approve it. It would be pointless to argue over its merits and demerits at that stage.

However, there is no denying that the Congress-UPA survival prospects have dramatically improved in the wake of the promised SP support. It is, however, doubtful if the government can boldly face a motion of no-confidence. The doubts spring not out of fears that the Left can mobilise more support for its stand but because the Congress is not 100 per cent sure of the commitment of its own MPs to the deal. If the issue is put to vote, the current subterranean opposition can surface into the open and embarrass the party.

That Kimball is NPA and is bluffing. The one to watch is the Congressman and any business types already in Delhi.

And read Rediff.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 04 Jul 2008 06:50

John Snow wrote:Arun S, Acharya Raju et al

But many may not know that an Indian American was instrumental in this effort by working as a operative of CIA, which I came to know few minutes ago, actually he is being facilitated by Presidential candidate John McCain. I know him personally as he is very active in the community raising funds for Asha foundation!

So CIA and Education in lefty schools are linked

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 04 Jul 2008 06:59

vina wrote:The deal will get done. Samajwadi Party has come out in support of it, hiding behind APJ Kalam. Hats off to Manmohan Singh. He has shown strong leadership here. He did not throw in the towel, persevered and finally is getting his way in making sure that the deal, which is vitally important to India's national interest is done.

The BJP should stop playing politics , now that the govt has the numbers, and should come out openly in support of the deal as they normally would have and we should go to the IAEA and the world powers with the full backing and support of the majority of the Indian polity. The left will of course be left behind.. ha ha.. they can go suck their thumbs. I have no respect for those cretins. They were obsessed far more on hurting GW Bush and making him look bad, rather than look at India's interest. Talk about cutting your nose to spite yourself.

Why would you assume that the BJP and the Left are playing politics anymore than the ruling Congress? Is it possible that the ruling Congress and its allies and the present leaders of India (PM Manmohan Singh et. al.) are also playing politics? After all the Congress is not the only party that cares for India.

Maybe they all have hidden agendas? Who knows?

We should also not forget that both BJP and the Left members have been democratically elected by the citizens of India. We should respect that. By repeatedly dis-respecting their positions - especially the Left (seems quite widespread on this BR thread) we are also insulting the millions of intelligent and honest Indians who voted for them.

Let us not forget that the present ruling coalition has barely half the seats in the parliament. Just as we can cherry pick specific individuals, however great they may be (example former Pres Abdul Kalam), and quote their support for the deal - there also other equally great individuals who are opposing the deal.

Let us face it - this deal is not being opposed by some lunatic fringe. There is considerable opposition from a significant fraction of India's parliament members and intelligentia.

My apologies if I appear to be pontificating - in a democracy we have to respect dissent.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jul 2008 07:04

one more from Rediff

'It is immaterial what others think of us, if we decide that something is not good for us'
July 3, 2008
MK Bhadrakumar has parlayed a distinguished career in the Indian Foreign Service, with postings in Moscow, Seoul, Colombo, Bonn, Islamabad, Tashkent and Ankara into his current eminence as one of the country's foremost thinkers on foreign affairs. He spoke on the Indo-US nuclear deal in an e-mail interview with rediff.com's Managing Editor (National Affairs) Sheela Bhatt.

Earlier strategic affairs expert K Subrahmanyam had answered the same set of questions on the nuclear deal.

'The Left wants to humiliate the Congress'

What are the diplomatic implications if India were to desist from going ahead with the nuclear deal with the United States?

It is a sign of the intellectual decline in foreign policy discourses in recent years that such a specious plea has been advanced at all. In any case, the yardsticks we should apply are two: one, whether the deal is necessary and useful for us in its present form and conditionalities, and two, whether a democratic consensus is available for such a major foreign policy decision. Remember, it is no simple matter that a country signs away its national sovereignty in 'perpetuity'. I can't recall any country having done such a thing. You can walk out of even the Non-Proliferation Treaty. It is immaterial what others think of us, if we decide that something is not good for us, for our self-respect, for our country's freedom of action. We have always done things our own way. Why this sudden obsession with what other countries may think?

What are the diplomatic implications if India decides to sign the negotiated draft guidelines with the International Atomic Energy Agency, and the US then takes the matter further?

The short answer is that this subject goes out of our control or our ability to calibrate, which I think is very crucial. We do not know what this IAEA draft contains. The government is lacking in transparency. This is one aspect.

Again, let us not forget that the Nuclear Suppliers Group was created by the US to punish India for its nuclear programme. Our ability to influence the NSG is severely limited. We do not know what sort of waiver the US is going to seek from the NSG. Clearly, any waiver will have to be in strict conformity with the relevant US legislation known as the Hyde Act.

Also, by the time the NSG waiver is sought, as far as India is concerned, there is a fait accompli in that we have tied ourselves hands and feet, in perpetuity, to the IAEA. Even if the NSG is waiver is unpalatable, we can't revisit the IAEA safeguards agreement or seek correctives.

In retrospect, the government shouldn't have allowed the US to shift the sequencing of negotiations over this deal. Go back to what the US and India originally pledged to do, and look at what we have ended up with.