India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

svinayak
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby svinayak » 23 Aug 2008 11:59

samuel wrote:Who is representing the US at NSG and how hard are they pushing the draft that was "agreed" to? Why don't we hear of a whip the US has issued to toe the line? Irrespective of what constituency or audience these objecting countries are addressing, the lack of a visible whip from the US is telling.
The Chinese have been really quiet, why? And when election rolls around, so will Markey and a bunch of democrats; posturing, because this is the season to do it and the clock ticks away.


We need to walk away now. But, my own bias is that we needed to walk away a long time back.
S


China is watching the new consensus before it makes the decision.
This is actually a new agreement among the players to keep this cartel going to the next few decades. the outcome and the new alliance is being watched by all the players.
It is all about their own interest on India and what they can do together to screw India.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2008 12:40

The Nuclear Deal and Manmohan's Meal.

You've got to hand it to Uncle Sam,such a brilliant strategy to defang nuclear India.It all went like this.Bush promises MMS the best steak ever at the ranch,with the most gorgeous Hollywood damsel for "dessert",guess who...its Julia Roberts! However,as the meal goes on and MMS is sipping a fine liqueur,in eager anticipation of "dessert',and aide whispers in Bush's ear and he tells MMS that Julia Roberts is unfortunately unavailable but another gorgeous creature ...Uma Thurman is.More waiting but more disappointment,Uma Thurman isn't available but Sigourney Weaver is.MMS's whiskers twitch.It wasn't what he expected,a gorgeous blue-eyed Aryan blonde for dessert,but never mind,she's a famous Hollywood star ! More waiting,but yet another disappointment,Sigourney sends word that she prefers a date with an alien instead! Don't worry says Bush,Halle Berry is.MMS winces,no Aryan beauty for him,but what a figure Halle has!Finally when MMS is at breaking point,in a depraved state of undisguised lust,Bush finally tells him that Halle sadly isn't coming but guess who's in the bedroom? MMS rushes in and finds..................................Condy Rice!
Last edited by Philip on 23 Aug 2008 12:53, edited 1 time in total.

RajeshA
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 12:47

The Nuclear Midgets have succeeded in delaying a consensus till Sept 5. at least. Does that suffice for them as a victory for their domestic audience? What they need is to be able to tell their domestic audiences, that they

a. stood up for their values
b. stood up to the big brother
c. had an effect on the outcome
d. there are more of these knights, who can testify to it, that we did all we could

Then there is the NPA lobby. The minimum US would need to give them is

a. they were able to mobilize several countries with their campaign
b. these countries were able to effect some change in the original draft
b. they forced US to pay more attention to the non-proliferation issues

The above would require some changes in the wording of the draft.

Anything however, which is substantial, and goes against the Indian red lines, would be a sure give away of American duplicitous game, and India should walk away from the deal.

MMS needs to be told, that he will not be jeered and mocked if this deal falls through. India can walk away from the deal with her head high. It is the USA, which will bear the cost, of not having been able to push this deal through NSG.

India and USA have the J18 Understanding and USA agreed to the initial draft. That means they reached an agreement with India on the terms of the waiver. After that it is USA's burden to get all other countries on board. The point is, why would India negotiate with USA to start with, simply because it is USA which proudly claims, that it can force changes in international rules. If it can not do it, this time, that means those claims are not worth two cents.

India can help USA in trying to fulfill the demands of the domestic audiences of the Nuclear Midgets and the minimum sop to the NPA Lobby, but nothing more than that.

The Negotiating Team may now go into the Kamal Nath Mode and not concede anything. There is no problem with that.

The Nuclear Midgets are aware that if they let USA down in this case, USA would lose face and NSG would be ripped apart. There will be no Russian Roulet from them. India does not need to worry. If US intentions are honorable wrt India, then the nuclear deal with go through on Sept 5.

USA wanted this deal with India. That much is clear. Otherwise what is the need of the Circus! This however could have changed over the last 2-3 weeks.

a) The Georgia Incident showed that Russia is again a hard-knuckles Opponent and NATO alone may not be able to stand up to Russia with American forces depleted and spread thin. Question is: was George W. Bush's visit to China a repeat of Nixon's voyage in '71? Is the price to cozy up to the Lizard, letting Indo-US Nuclear Deal fall through?

b) China surely gave George W. Bush its version of shock and awe at the Beijing Olympics. Is George W. Bush awed enough to give away Asia's keys to China again?

Of course this can be paranoia only and one should not read too much into it, but a China-USA entente is the one thing which can overturn the whole deal.

So if our reading is that USA has not run away into the Dragon's hug, then I would say the Indian negotiators have nothing to fear. If USA has done so, then the Deal doesn't matter anyway.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Rupesh » 23 Aug 2008 12:57

Some good news from Koodankulam

Expect Koodankulam power by December
Friday August 22 2008 01:31 IST
Express News Service

TIRUNELVELI: THE first reactor of Koodankulam Nuclear Power Project (KKNPP) will start generating electricity before this December, Project Director, K C Purohit, said.

On Thursday, the Tamil Nadu Assembly Estimates Committee, led by chairman Radhapuram MLA M Appavu inspected the KKNNP site along with the committee members. Purohit informed the visiting team that more than 83 per cent work in the first reactor has been completed. “Since 83 per cent of work was completed, the first reactor will start generating electricity before December 2008,” he said.

Purohit also informed that the share of Tamil Nadu in the first phase would be 900 MW. “This will completely fulfil the power requirements of southern Tamil Nadu,” he noted.

The committee members also visited the Indian Space Research Organisation’s Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre at Mahendragiri, Modern flower market site at Kaavalkinaru Junction, Valliyoor Government Hospital, SIDCO Industrial Estate site at Valliyoor, Kodumudiyar dam, Florence Swainson Higher Secondary School for the Deaf at Palayamkottai and St Anne’s School for the Mentally Retarded at Palayamkottai. District Collector G Prakash also accompanied the committee.

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IET20080822013122&Page=T&Title=Southern+News+%2D+Tamil+Nadu&Topic=0

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby awagaman » 23 Aug 2008 13:18

Was this what Varadarajan meant in his first dispatches from Vienna about Americans "underselling" the waiver?
http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2008/08/eyes-on-nsg-prize-india-readies-itself.html

21 August 2008
The Hindu


Eyes on NSG prize, India prepares for big day


Siddharth Varadarajan

Vienna: With less than 24 hours to go before the Nuclear Suppliers Group formally sits down to discuss granting India a waiver from its stringent export guidelines, Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon held a series of meetings here Wednesday with diplomats from member countries to press for the speedy adoption of the draft proposal without any changes....

Indeed, the American pessimism about the exemption being a one-shot affair is forcing India to ask itself whether the United States, the deal’s chief architect, is now underselling the waiver.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 14:04

Finding a fix to the NSG’s code of Omerta by Siddharth Varadarajan: Hindu

But as the NSG’s deliberations ran aground here, it became apparent to the Indians that the Americans had not invested the same diplomatic energy in convincing their friends and allies across the world. :x


Who is looking after Operation Nuclear Deal? Paul Bremer maybe! If US doesn't get its act together ....

Is that the reason, Foreign Secretary Shivshanker Menon is heading to USA, to let the Americans know, they are on the fast track of bungling the last bit of George W. Bush's legacy? And that the State Dept. has put a team of incompetent people to look after the deal.

If the US doesn't watch out, this can grow in a way similar to the opposition to the Iraq War in the Western Capitals. NZ paper writes:

US pressures NZ on India nuclear pact :Stuff.co.nz

If this balloons to something similar, where opposing USA becomes a badge of honor, then Helen Clark, PM NZ could even do a Gerhard Schröder, ex-Chancellor of Germany. In Sept 2002, Gerhard Schröder won re-elections solely on the basis of his Opposition to upcoming the Iraq-War. NZ Elections are in November.

Of course she knows that she would destroy NSG in the process. But maybe she wouldn't care, As long as she wins the elections and sabotages the Indo-US Nuclear Deal by letting the clock run out.

Not to speak of the Austrians, who could use similar tactics as well to win the elections on 28th Sept, 2008.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 14:22

India says NSG clearance is U.S. responsibility by Siddharth Varadarajan: Hindu

“Things are really very clear,” a senior official told The Hindu when asked for his reaction to the NSG stalemate. “There was an agreement in 2005 in which we both made certain commitments. We have delivered on all of ours. Now the Americans have to deliver the NSG,” he said, “not us.” In the July 2005 statement, President George W. Bush committed himself to “work with friends and allies to adjust international regimes to enable full civil nuclear energy cooperation and trade with India.” Indian officials say securing NSG clearance by extracting further commitments from India or diluting the scope of cooperation was not part of the bargain.


Asked what sort of amendments the American side was asked to make by those NSG countries that were critical of the original proposal, a European diplomat told The Hindu that a number of states had made suggestions on virtually every aspect of the draft. “I think the whole thing will be reformulated, but in a positive way,” he said, requesting that he and his country not be identified out of respect for the NSG’s rules of confidentiality.

Another diplomat said the NSG raised concerns on nuclear testing, adherence to NPT full-scope safeguards, the need for a review mechanism to assess Indian compliance, as well as restrictions on enrichment and reprocessing technology. “There was a reference in the earlier U.S. draft to the desirability of India eventually accepting the NPT and its safeguards that was more positive than what we have now,” the diplomat said. “So, I think America will have to come back to us with a new draft before any decision is possible.”

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 14:26


RajeshA
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 14:29

Me thinks this is would be the right time for

OBAMA TO SPEAK OUT DECISIVELY IN FAVOR OF THE INDO-US NUCLEAR DEAL

He has some clout in these Nuclear Midgets Club who are all strongly Left-of-Center.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2008 14:32

and Auuu Auuu he has picked Biden sahib for VP.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Rupesh » 23 Aug 2008 14:44

Singha wrote:and Auuu Auuu he has picked Biden sahib for VP.


Another Lawyer... :((

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 15:46

Singha wrote:and Auuu Auuu he has picked Biden sahib for VP.


That is the best choice, that could have happened from the view point Indo-US relations, as well as from PoV of Nuclear Deal, in case it does not come through this time around.

However Biden also has the tendency to be overly supportive of Pakistani 'civil society', as if there was something like that.

But he says what he thinks.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 16:14

Hang on India, say N-clubbers by Amit Baruah: HT

Western diplomats, however, told the Hindustan Times that the outlook was good for India and the atmosphere during the two days of meetings was "not poisonous".


“India will get its exemption. But there will have to be some fine-tuning of the draft to take on board the concerns of others,” an Indian official said after the meeting.


In a radio interview, New Zealand’s Disarmament Minister Phil Goff spilled the beans that eight countries — New Zealand, Ireland, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark {the VIPERS :evil: } — were working in concert to make changes to the Amercian “waiver” draft.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Gerard » 23 Aug 2008 16:43

'We won't accept prescriptive conditionalities from NSG'
India will not accept any "prescriptive conditionalities" to get an exemption from the NSG to operationalise the Indo-US nuclear deal, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said on Saturday. "We have to see what kind of amendments come. Then only we can decide. But we cannot accept prescriptive conditionalities," Mukherjee said while accompanying President Pratibha Patil on her two-day visit to West Bengal.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Sanatanan » 23 Aug 2008 17:05

Gerard wrote:'We won't accept prescriptive conditionalities from NSG'
India will not accept any "prescriptive conditionalities" to get an exemption from the NSG to operationalise the Indo-US nuclear deal, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said on Saturday. "We have to see what kind of amendments come. Then only we can decide. But we cannot accept prescriptive conditionalities," Mukherjee said while accompanying President Pratibha Patil on her two-day visit to West Bengal.

Note the incremental hara-kiri attempted now by GoI by the addition of the adjective "prescriptive". Earlier the ritualistic chant for the waiver was "unconditional AND clean". Now we can perhaps start dissecting what is "prescriptive" and what is not just as we did earlier with what was "unconditional AND clean" and what was not.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Gerard » 23 Aug 2008 17:40

Critic seeks test ban as condition for NSG India waiver
"At this point, we can expect that Washington and New Delhi will now try to wordsmith the NSG guideline on India to the point of being meaningless and force a decision at the next NSG meeting," Kimball said.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Gerard » 23 Aug 2008 18:40


merlin
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby merlin » 23 Aug 2008 18:56

Now we can perhaps start dissecting what is "prescriptive" and what is not just as we did earlier with what was "unconditional AND clean" and what was not.


Every single thing about this whole deal and deal process has had various interpretations depending on which side is talking about it. I fully expect MMS and company to spin anything agreed to as not prescriptive, since they want the deal this badly.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2008 19:21

One outcome at this juncture is if MMS walks out he will regain the trust of the people and not just the confidence of the MPs.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby SSridhar » 23 Aug 2008 19:22



Whether the US succeeds in its efforts with NZ or not is another issue. We hope they succeed. At this point, we assume the deal is dead and we won't forget the role of NZ in this episode. Even if the US manages to turn NZ around, we won't forget the negative role of NZ. That should be the bottomline message delivered to NZ in as very sweet, polite and an effusive manner as possible at an appropriate later time by the Indian High Commissioner to Wellington, Mr. K.P.Ernest.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby svinayak » 23 Aug 2008 19:25

ramana wrote:One outcome at this juncture is if MMS walks out he will regain the trust of the people and not just the confidence of the MPs.

Too much money is in the game now.
The USIBC which is the business lobby has to find out what else is needed. Those countries may not have any business benefits to this deal and may be looking for some business deals to agree to NSG. There is no principle here but business and agreement among all parties.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby enqyoob » 23 Aug 2008 20:20

Wonder what is the connection between the Jehaad in the Kashmir Valley and the New Clear Suppliers' Gang deliberations.

For sure, India cannot crack down on the Valley traitors until the NSG clearance is cleared. So the traitors have a clear field until then. What else?

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby SSridhar » 23 Aug 2008 20:27


ramana
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2008 20:41

These are govt experts and not retired folks!

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby SSridhar » 23 Aug 2008 20:51

ramana wrote:These are govt experts and not retired folks!


Yes, they are and that makes it interesting. At last, I see some spine. For example,

"If indeed such concerns were serious, an objective assessment of the rampant proliferation over the last decade is called for, where many of these very countries have remained mute witnesses to well-known instances of illegal activity and violations of international undertakings," the experts said.

They said it would be advisable to get the so-called non-proliferation house in order, before needlessly antagonising India with unreasonable demands despite its spotless non-proliferation record.

The experts said it will be unfortunate if the process is allowed to be frustrated by unacceptable conditions voiced by some relatively minor players in the global nuclear technology market.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2008 21:22

If we didn't know better they look like they are BR Jingoes.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Victor » 23 Aug 2008 21:46


Excellent. These experts now need to start airing "what if" scenarios this week discussing what India's options are if it is forced to walk away from the nuke deal. How will it reflect on the green parties in nz/austria/norway/ireland etc if India is forced to quintuple its use of dirty coal? Why India needs to make sure that its peaceful muclear explosions are safe enough to construct the huge dams that will now be needed for sure in quantities never before considered? Etc etc..

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby enqyoob » 23 Aug 2008 21:52

Someone pointed out forcefully at an academic/business forum in the US, that India may decide that there is no point in being needlessly shy about exporting nuclear technology, if the NSG are going to act worse than OPEC. Since there is now demonstrated reactor technology in India, many countries may benefit from imports received from India......

Point was that this "voluntary adherence to non-proliferation" etc. is not to be taken for granted.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Pulikeshi » 23 Aug 2008 22:18

N^3,

Goes back to the pissing into the tent argument!
They can't take billion+ people and their desires for granted...

What is the combined population of these AyatollaLands?

NZ: 4 M
Switzerland: 7.6 M
IR: 4 M
Austria: 8.2 M
Netherlands: 16.6 M
Total = 40.4 M

Their combined population is less than that in each of the top ten states of India. :shock:

Why is there only "has been" euro-centric countries under U.S. nuclear umbrella in this ignominious list?
I'd be the last to jump to conclusions of racial discrimination - but facts don't suggest otherwise!

These pipsqueaks have the right to tell us what kind of energy security we need?????
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 23 Aug 2008 22:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 22:21

Perhaps one should keep in mind, there are other Uranium producing countries outside of NSG, namely
a) Namibia (7.5%)
b) Niger (7.4%)
c) Uzbekistan (5.5%)

Now that India has a Safeguards Agreement with IAEA, it should be less of a problem, importing Uranium from these countries.

Instead of throwing away our money at the NSG countries, we can invest that money
a) in R&D for enrichment, LWR Technology, etc.
b) courting Namibia, Niger and Uzbekistan big time

as well as earning money by selling our reactors and technology to all, who are willing to buy, of course with Safeguards, and so ...

How about starting by selling to that country, with which we have civilizational ties. :twisted:

WE HAVE OTHER OPTIONS.
Last edited by RajeshA on 23 Aug 2008 22:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby ShauryaT » 23 Aug 2008 22:22

ramana wrote:One outcome at this juncture is if MMS walks out he will regain the trust of the people and not just the confidence of the MPs.
My overall interaction with people in India and NRI's, the reports in the papers and even BRF polls indicate that MMS has the trust of the people, on the issue. To a degree, a simple metric has been applied by the elite. If the left is opposed to something, it has to be good. The lack of a clear alternative energy strategy by the opposition, is helping MMS sell the deal. The forked tongue language of the agreements, along with the spin of the DDM has conviced most of the elite, that this deal is worh the effort. We knew Indian leaders lacked a strategic culture, I am forced to ask, do Indian people also lack this trait?

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 22:31

Pulikeshi wrote:What is the combined population of these AyatollaLands?

NZ: 4 M
Switzerland: 7.6 M
IR: 4 M
Austria: 8.2 M
Netherlands: 16.6 M
Total = 40.4 M

Their combined population is less than that in each of the top ten states of India. :shock:

Why is there only "has been" euro-centric countries under U.S. nuclear umbrella in this ignominious list?
I'd be the last to jump to conclusions of racial discrimination - but facts don't suggest otherwise!

These pipsqueaks have the right to tell us what kind of energy security we need?????


You are cheating Pulikeshi.

If you add
Norway: 4.8 M
Sweden: 9.2 M
Finland: 5.3 M
Denmark: 5.5 M
Total = 65.2 M

and that is more than the whole Population of India. So don't try to fudge the facts, OK! :D

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Gerard » 23 Aug 2008 22:33

MMS has the trust of the people, on the issue.


There are individuals who could kill all trust and support with one statement condemning the waiver... Kalam, Kakodar etc...

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Prem » 23 Aug 2008 22:37

narayanan wrote:Wonder what is the connection between the Jehaad in the Kashmir Valley and the New Clear Suppliers' Gang deliberations.

For sure, India cannot crack down on the Valley traitors until the NSG clearance is cleared. So the traitors have a clear field until then. What else?


Hoorirats can never be so bold by just relying on support of Pissstan or O.I. CEE. Valleyrats, Roy, Saangvi, NSG etc are all being pulled by the same string master/s. Frankly, its worth watching and observing as long as we dont forget .

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby sraj » 23 Aug 2008 22:39

These hypocritical Kiwis don't have the guts to withdraw from the ANZUS military alliance with Australia and the US, even after the US 'suspended' its treaty obligations to New Zealand more than 20 years ago in response to their moralizing on nuclear issues.

It is easy to get on your high horse and spout high-falutin nonsense about non-proliferation while clinging to the chatra chaya of two big brothers: the Aussies and the Americans.

New Zealand should look inwards and think about how they have treated the Maoris, including illegally confiscating Maori land in violation of the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi. 30% of the New Zealand population are minorities (mostly Maoris and other Pacific islanders). The Maori, who are concentrated on the North Island, are still discriminated against. 50% of New Zealand's prison population consists of Maoris.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 22:55

sraj wrote:These hypocritical Kiwis don't have the guts to withdraw from the ANZUS military alliance with Australia and the US, even after the US 'suspended' its treaty obligations to New Zealand more than 20 years ago in response to their moralizing on nuclear issues.

It is easy to get on your high horse and spout high-falutin nonsense about non-proliferation while clinging to the chatra chaya of two big brothers: the Aussies and the Americans.

New Zealand should look inwards and think about how they have treated the Maoris, including illegally confiscating Maori land in violation of the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi. 30% of the New Zealand population are minorities (mostly Maoris and other Pacific islanders). The Maori, who are concentrated on the North Island, are still discriminated against. 50% of New Zealand's prison population consists of Maoris.


sraj,
from what I know, the Maoris are getting dole pushed through every orifice they have, and are treated with kid gloves. Maoris are getting a better deal these days.

That still doesn't excuse them, for trying to preach to India about non-proliferation or anointing themselves the role of the highest guardians of the discriminatory NPT.

They need to be told in the face, that preaching morality to dark people like us is racism and they better stop showing that they care more about the world than the dark people.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby sraj » 23 Aug 2008 23:17

Maoris are getting a better deal these days.

A little bit of money today is not going to compensate for the illegal confiscation of Maori land and violation of treaties which has occurred historically. Here is some info on the ongoing land claims:
Maori Independence Site : Tino Rangatiratanga
And here are some socio-economic indicators:
Maori socio-economic issues
Māori class as poorer on average than the rest of the population of New Zealand, and run greater risks of many negative economic and social outcomes. Over 50% of Māori live in areas classed in the three highest deprivation deciles, compared with 24% of the rest of the population.[44] Although Māori make up only 14% of the population, they make up almost 50% of the total prison-population.[45] Māori have higher unemployment-rates than other cultures resident in New Zealand [46] Māori have higher numbers of suicides than non-Māori.[47] "Only 47% of Māori school-leavers finish school with qualifications higher than NCEA Level One; compared to a massive 74% European; 87% Asian."[48] Māori also suffer more health problems, including alcohol and drug-related problems, per head of population than any other culture living in New Zealand.[49] Māori also have considerably lower life-expectancies compared to non-Māori: Māori males 69.0 years vs. non-Māori males 77.2 years; Māori females 73.2 yrs vs. non-Māori females 81.9 years.[50]

India needs to learn to pay these moralizing hypocrites back in the same coin.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby RajeshA » 23 Aug 2008 23:29

sraj,
those statistics may be correct. Many of those socio-economic indicators are similar to statistics for Indian Muslims. If there is poverty and lack of education, it often has to do with attitude also.

However, I do not contest your views and the need to take the battle for morals to the Kiwis themselves.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby Rahul M » 23 Aug 2008 23:43

........Total = 65.2 M
and that is more than the whole Population of India. So don't try to fudge the facts, OK! :D

RajeshA, are you serious or having an early 1st april moment at our expense ?

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Postby sraj » 23 Aug 2008 23:49

RajeshA wrote:However, I do not contest your views and the need to take the battle for morals to the Kiwis themselves.

How many times have you been asked to explain how the 'caste system' is holding back India's progress, or why the poor 'untouchable' masses are exploited nd mistreated by the Indian elite. All I am saying is that we need to gently show the mirror to these moralizing hypocrites, while never forgetting that we ourselves have miles to go to set our own house in order and need to systematically continue down that road.

btw, if in 30 years' time, the North Island were to want to declare independence, India may have some views on the matter. It all depends. Right? :)


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