India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

shiv
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India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby shiv » 01 Sep 2008 10:36

The last thread has gone to the trashcan

i had started the last thread by saying:

No politics
No whines or celebratory lungi dances
Wonleee nook noos pliss.


I will add to that: Please stop insulting each other.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby amit » 01 Sep 2008 10:51

The Panda finally plays it cards. See here

"Whether it is motivated by geopolitical considerations or commercial interests, the U.S.-India nuclear agreement has constituted a major blow to the international non-proliferation regime," said the commentary by a researcher from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, a leading state think tank.
"Irrespective of the fate of the U.S.-India nuclear agreement, the United States' multiple standards on non-proliferation issues have met with a sceptical world."


I wonder why only a few days before the NSG meeting the Panda is coming out so hard for the the first time? Is it because it has got a sense that the pipsqueaks have finished their squeaking and are ready to fall in line?

And Oh by the way for entertainment purposes onlee. Here's what People's Democracy has to say:

Whatever wording the US will make in a revised draft, as in the case of the 123 agreement and the IAEA safeguards agreement, the NSG waiver too will be in conformity with the unacceptable conditionalities of the Hyde Act. The whole attempt is to see that a text of the waiver is so drafted that will allow the Indian government to claim that it has virtually got a clean waiver.


Perhaps Comrade Karat should talk to the Panda and assuage its fears? :-?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Dileep » 01 Sep 2008 10:57

I think doing what your antagonists claim you would do would be stoopid.

It is like the story of a hubby and wife. The lady (like any other lady) thinks that the hubby will cheat on her given the chance, and denies his 'wishes' as a test case. The hubby, seeing theis 'denial' pretends that he is having a bit of affair with his colleague.

Self fulfilling profesy! Lawyers gets richer and kids (if any) suffer.

Doing, or claiming willingness to do, anything that the NPAs, sheepherds, moneyhoarders and their cartel scaremonger won't do. You should put your mind into the question "What am I being being denied here? and what are my alternates to what being denied?".

The bums, or new clear trade with eye ran are not the things that is being denied here. We are being denied a CIVILIAN nuclear deal, targeted to generate POWER. So, what are our alternates? Obviously burn all the lignites and sulfurus coal we can dig out. Buy up all OIL futures at whatever cost. Fill up the air with SO2, and raise the oil price to $300 a barrel.

And of course do things like boycotting Nestle.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 01 Sep 2008 11:15

Narayanan Ji,

I believe, I too am being referred to by you, as those who are crying for "TEST NOW", in which case you are right.

My Position "TEST NOW" is conditional on "NSG REJECTS WAIVER".

The Reasoning goes like this:

We offered the NSG an honest Voluntary Unilateral Moratorium on Nuclear Testing. It was not sufficient for them. They wanted a lot more than that. They want India to sign the CTBT. In order, to come up to their expectations, it was necessary to do sufficient testing on par with other nuclear powers, so as to prepare ourselves for CTBT, as the others have done. A minimum deterrent is found to be necessary because of the excessive proliferation in the neighborhood, which NPT members were not able to control. We hope, that in future rounds of NSG discussions on a Waiver, we will be able to offer the NSG, something more than our unilateral moratorium.

I'd be interested to know, whether you feel, India needs to test further in order to create a credible minimum deterrent. If yes, then what would be the most opportune time to do so, in your opinion? In case you are of the opinion, that any open discussion on that here would be contra-productive, feel free to ignore this query.

In the future, the pressure to sign and ratify CTBT will only increase and not go away. Being in Annex 2, makes our ratifying necessary for CTBT to go into effect. All other nuclear powers seem to have the necessary data, to restrict their testing to computer simulations, so they are all bindas.

Just like France or Netherlands sometimes just throw back the EU Treaty on the faces of EU Enthusiasts, and at other times Ireland does the same, does not mean the EU stops trying to reach a solid framework for their operations. They have to live with the delay and more effort.

Even after testing by India, NPT-wallahs would have to make room for India in some framework, just like USA is doing right now. They cannot afford to keep India in the penalty box for ever. So a sanctions regime would at the most be of limited duration.

JMT

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby amit » 01 Sep 2008 11:46

RajeshA wrote: We offered the NSG an honest Voluntary Unilateral Moratorium on Nuclear Testing. It was not sufficient for them. They wanted a lot more than that. They want India to sign the CTBT. In order, to come up to their expectations, it was necessary to do sufficient testing on par with other nuclear powers, so as to prepare ourselves for CTBT, as the others have done. A minimum deterrent is found to be necessary because of the excessive proliferation in the neighborhood, which NPT members were not able to control. We hope, that in future rounds of NSG discussions on a Waiver, we will be able to offer the NSG, something more than our unilateral moratorium.


Rajesh,

IMO you and the others who are advocating a policy of test as a reaction to NSG non-waiver crowd are overlooking something very fundamental.

And that is the NSG may work by consensus but it's not one monolithic bloc. In the event that India has to say "No, thank you" there will be some really unhappy folks within the NSG tent who will see potential business worth severl XX billions going up in smoke. And nobody likes that.

If, however, India were to say "What the hell, let's test" and sets off a few new clear bums then all the countries will be forced to close ranks.

France and Russia will have to issue mandatory statements condemning the tests and go through the motions of sanctions. Moreover the really nasty issue of people like the Kiwis who have no stake in the potential billions India may spend and who are denying legitimate business to France, Russia, US and even Canada will be not be "punished" because the big five will feel the need to give the appearance of a united front against Indian "provocation". In effect it will give these pipsqueaks an opportunity to have their cake and eat it too.

Also, apart from showing how cheesed off we are, what will a few tests prove? Will it comprehensively prove we have a megaton category deliverable bum which we can deliver to all parts of China, Europe and the eastern or western seaboard of the US of A?

Showing our petulance is not going to help. What will help is if we show our displeasure in more subtle ways and then use the undoubted unhappiness that the NSG non-waiver would create within NSG to drive even further wedges in that stupid organisation.

Boss we have to use our heads not our hearts to chalk out our next course of action.

PS: Please note signing CTBT is not going to get us the NSG waiver. It's all a game of see how far India is willing to bend backwards. If we indicate we want to sign the CTBT, they will just up the ante and then demand the India destroy all its new clear bums and open all its facilities for intrusive inspections. Don't be under the illusion that this is about just meeting expectations. This is a classic case of playing hardball to see how much can be extracted. India will eventually have to draw a line in the sand. And its better we do it now than later.

JMT

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 01 Sep 2008 13:32

amit wrote:
RajeshA wrote: We offered the NSG an honest Voluntary Unilateral Moratorium on Nuclear Testing. It was not sufficient for them. They wanted a lot more than that. They want India to sign the CTBT. In order, to come up to their expectations, it was necessary to do sufficient testing on par with other nuclear powers, so as to prepare ourselves for CTBT, as the others have done. A minimum deterrent is found to be necessary because of the excessive proliferation in the neighborhood, which NPT members were not able to control. We hope, that in future rounds of NSG discussions on a Waiver, we will be able to offer the NSG, something more than our unilateral moratorium.


Rajesh,

IMO you and the others who are advocating a policy of test as a reaction to NSG non-waiver crowd are overlooking something very fundamental.

And that is the NSG may work by consensus but it's not one monolithic bloc. In the event that India has to say "No, thank you" there will be some really unhappy folks within the NSG tent who will see potential business worth severl XX billions going up in smoke. And nobody likes that.

If, however, India were to say "What the hell, let's test" and sets off a few new clear bums then all the countries will be forced to close ranks.

France and Russia will have to issue mandatory statements condemning the tests and go through the motions of sanctions. Moreover the really nasty issue of people like the Kiwis who have no stake in the potential billions India may spend and who are denying legitimate business to France, Russia, US and even Canada will be not be "punished" because the big five will feel the need to give the appearance of a united front against Indian "provocation". In effect it will give these pipsqueaks an opportunity to have their cake and eat it too.

Also, apart from showing how cheesed off we are, what will a few tests prove? Will it comprehensively prove we have a megaton category deliverable bum which we can deliver to all parts of China, Europe and the eastern or western seaboard of the US of A?

Showing our petulance is not going to help. What will help is if we show our displeasure in more subtle ways and then use the undoubted unhappiness that the NSG non-waiver would create within NSG to drive even further wedges in that stupid organisation.

Boss we have to use our heads not our hearts to chalk out our next course of action.

PS: Please note signing CTBT is not going to get us the NSG waiver. It's all a game of see how far India is willing to bend backwards. If we indicate we want to sign the CTBT, they will just up the ante and then demand the India destroy all its new clear bums and open all its facilities for intrusive inspections. Don't be under the illusion that this is about just meeting expectations. This is a classic case of playing hardball to see how much can be extracted. India will eventually have to draw a line in the sand. And its better we do it now than later.

JMT


Amit,

What I too am not advocating is thinking with our hearts and not with our heads. There are two questions here:

1. Do we need further testing to improve our minimum nuclear deterrent?
2. Would we be able to find a more conducive environment in the future for testing?

It is certainly not a case of trying to prove something to others. It is a case of a credible minimum nuclear deterrent.

We have been carrying several burdens. We have carried the burden of NPT Pressure without the benefits of weaponization till 1998. We are also carrying the burden of CTBT Pressure without the benefits of a sufficiently tested credible deterrent.

The costs of testing can be assumed to be substantial. There will be economic sanctions and there will be loss of mainstream respectability. I am saying, that these sanctions and costs would be substantially lower now, when we have an excuse, that of righteous indignation over rejection of NSG Waiver, then at some point later on.

What I would wish is, that after this Nuclear Deal Process, there ought to be a net profit for India, either full civilian nuclear cooperation with the world or a tested credible minimum deterrent.

I don't buy the argument of people, who say, we should not provoke the world community by testing. Indian Nuclear Deal with Separation Plan is being discussed at the NSG Table, because of Pokhran II. Otherwise they would have been discussing Full Scope Safeguards for India.

The sanctions and excommunication regime would not last any longer than the time it lasted after Pokhran-II, i.e. 2-4 years. Mainstream respectability would be restored by 2012. We will get 2 years of abuse, and then business as usual. The benefits will be a tested credible minimum deterrent in 2010, and political flexibility on CTBT. We should not lose sight of the transitional and temporary nature of any sanctions and excommunication regime.

In case, we get the NSG Waiver, there is no need to go down this road {not just as yet anyway}.
Last edited by RajeshA on 01 Sep 2008 13:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby kshirin » 01 Sep 2008 13:34

amit wrote:
RajeshA wrote: We offered the NSG an honest Voluntary Unilateral Moratorium on Nuclear Testing. It was not sufficient for them. They wanted a lot more than that. They want India to sign the CTBT. In order, to come up to their expectations, it was necessary to do sufficient testing on par with other nuclear powers, so as to prepare ourselves for CTBT, as the others have done. A minimum deterrent is found to be necessary because of the excessive proliferation in the neighborhood, which NPT members were not able to control. We hope, that in future rounds of NSG discussions on a Waiver, we will be able to offer the NSG, something more than our unilateral moratorium.


Rajesh,

IMO you and the others who are advocating a policy of test as a reaction to NSG non-waiver crowd are overlooking something very fundamental.

And that is the NSG may work by consensus but it's not one monolithic bloc. In the event that India has to say "No, thank you" there will be some really unhappy folks within the NSG tent who will see potential business worth severl XX billions going up in smoke. And nobody likes that.

If, however, India were to say "What the hell, let's test" and sets off a few new clear bums then all the countries will be forced to close ranks.

France and Russia will have to issue mandatory statements condemning the tests and go through the motions of sanctions. Moreover the really nasty issue of people like the Kiwis who have no stake in the potential billions India may spend and who are denying legitimate business to France, Russia, US and even Canada will be not be "punished" because the big five will feel the need to give the appearance of a united front against Indian "provocation". In effect it will give these pipsqueaks an opportunity to have their cake and eat it too.

Also, apart from showing how cheesed off we are, what will a few tests prove? Will it comprehensively prove we have a megaton category deliverable bum which we can deliver to all parts of China, Europe and the eastern or western seaboard of the US of A?

Showing our petulance is not going to help. What will help is if we show our displeasure in more subtle ways and then use the undoubted unhappiness that the NSG non-waiver would create within NSG to drive even further wedges in that stupid organisation.

Boss we have to use our heads not our hearts to chalk out our next course of action.

PS: Please note signing CTBT is not going to get us the NSG waiver. It's all a game of see how far India is willing to bend backwards. If we indicate we want to sign the CTBT, they will just up the ante and then demand the India destroy all its new clear bums and open all its facilities for intrusive inspections. Don't be under the illusion that this is about just meeting expectations. This is a classic case of playing hardball to see how much can be extracted. India will eventually have to draw a line in the sand. And its better we do it now than later.

JMT


I agree with the heads over hearts argument, every step has to be analysed for its implications, but RajeshA has a point -those who behave badly are being rewarded with talks and sops -North Korea and Iran and the sheer chutzpah ofthe Pakistani proliferation - and goody-two-shoes like us are being taken compeletely for granted, given unnecessary lectures on good behaviour from those who have sinned the most and jerked around. Anyway, let us wait for the NSG outcome. Perhaps a few hints that we can also sell reactors to countries like Malaysia etc. (not seriously, just hints) may help them conclude they are better off with us in the tent.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby amit » 01 Sep 2008 13:55

RajeshA wrote: Amit,

What I too am not advocating is thinking with our hearts and not with our heads. There are two questions here:

1. Do we need further testing to improve our minimum nuclear deterrent?
2. Would we be able to find a more conducive environment in the future for testing?

It is certainly not a case of trying to prove something to others. It is a case of a credible minimum nuclear deterrent.

We have been carrying several burdens. We have carried the burden of NPT Pressure without the benefits of weaponization till 1998. We are also carrying the burden of CTBT Pressure without the benefits of a sufficiently tested credible deterrent.

The costs of testing can be assumed to be substantial. There will be economic sanctions and there will be loss of mainstream respectability. I am saying, that these sanctions and costs would be substantially lower now, when we have an excuse, that of righteous indignation over rejection of NSG Waiver, then at some point later on.

What I would wish is, that after this Nuclear Deal Process, there ought to be a net profit for India, either full civilian nuclear cooperation with the world or a tested credible minimum deterrent.

I don't buy the argument of people, who say, we should not provoke the world community by testing. Indian Nuclear Deal with Separation Plan is being discussed at the NSG Table, because of Pokhran II. Otherwise they would have been discussing Full Scope Safeguards for India.

The sanctions and excommunication regime would not last any longer than the time it lasted after Pokhran-II, i.e. 2-4 years. Mainstream respectability would be restored by 2012. We will get 2 years of abuse, and then business as usual. The benefits will be a tested credible minimum deterrent in 2010, and political flexibility on CTBT.

In case, we get the NSG Waiver, there is no need to go down this road {not just as yet anyway}.


Rajesh,

If we need to further tests to improve our minimum credible deterrent then we need to do that irrespective of the NSG waiver or not. There can't be we can afford to wait if we get a waiver and we cannot afford to wait if we don't get the waiver.

You seem to think of the NSG waiver is a zero sum game. I don't think you noticed the point that I made in my previous post. That is there will be a lot of heart burn within the NSG regime among the countries which would be denied billions of dollars of potential revenues. And that IMO will make the NSG regime a lot more weaker.

An Indian test right after a walk out would deter that process. You gotta to remember that the meta objective is to bury all these stupid three and four letter treaties and what better way than to get the treaty members quarreling among themselves?

One point about sanctions. It's been explained time and again on this thread why this time around the sanctions would have a more severe repercussions on the Indian economy - just see Arnab's post(s) in the previous discussion thread.

Your point about just two years of abuse is just a personal opinion. I would postulate the effects would last far longer.

And also can you postulate how many tests we would need to be assured that we have a credible deterrent (assuming we don't have one now)? And how many kiloton tests, how many megaton tests do we need? What about weaponisation, delivery systems etc?

How many tests, spread over how many days, months or years do we need for that? Have you calculated all that?

Do note I also happen to believe that we'll have to test again, sooner or later and that we'll have to keep on testing till such time that we are satisfied. But that testing has to be done when we are ready and we know that we need to test - not because we're unhappy with the reaction at NSG and want to teach some pipsqueaks a lesson. That's what head over heart means IMO.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby amit » 01 Sep 2008 13:59

kshirin wrote: I agree with the heads over hearts argument, every step has to be analysed for its implications, but RajeshA has a point -those who behave badly are being rewarded with talks and sops -North Korea and Iran and the sheer chutzpah ofthe Pakistani proliferation - and goody-two-shoes like us are being taken compeletely for granted, given unnecessary lectures on good behaviour from those who have sinned the most and jerked around. Anyway, let us wait for the NSG outcome. Perhaps a few hints that we can also sell reactors to countries like Malaysia etc. (not seriously, just hints) may help them conclude they are better off with us in the tent.


Kshirin,

I also fully agree with you that folks who thumb there nose at us need to be taught a lesson. India should not take it lying down.

However, teaching lessons can take many forms and doesn't need to be in the form of a N-test in anger. We could do a version of what you yourself suggested. Sri Lanka has recently asked for N-reactors from India, let's start a collaboration with them.

We could announce that the unilateral moratorium is being burdensome and that we're reconsidering it. Why we could even start a spurt of activity at Pokharan that will get everyone into a tizzy. And we can mend our relations with Iran. There are so many things we can do to show our anger.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby harbans » 01 Sep 2008 14:05

Excellent points against knee jerk reaction testing. But if NSG is playing brinkmanship, ithink it's not a bad idea to pretend we're going through motions of testing and keeping them on tenterhooks. I like the idea of to and fro truck movements under absolutely clear skies in Pokhran with people in combat fatigues carrying instruments. We do have confirmed fission/ BF devices of 20-25 kT for sure and with MIRV capability they will cause as significant damage as a large MT device would. We should build up on testing and weaponizing our submarine launched BM capability, fire ICBMs that can reach up to NZ with ease. Developing these will go a long way in achieving desired deterrence for the time being..

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sanjay M » 01 Sep 2008 14:16

Whereas testing represents an undeniable threshold event, proliferation is a different matter. If we proliferate, we can conceal and deny, unlike with testing.

As per the historic American slogan, "No Taxation Without Representation! Azadi!" likewise I feel that for India's N-policy there should be "No Obligation Without Representation" (ie. India should not restrict itself on non-proliferation when it is not extended the same terms as the Big-5, and when it is being harmed by their rampant proliferation)

Tell me, hypothetically speaking, if there had been no such thing as NPT, or if China had started proliferating to Iran in a manner that made an Iranian nuclear power a fait d'accompli, then what would Uncle Sam have done?
Even while deterred from attacking a nuclear-armed Iran, Uncle Sam would have still found a way to make China pay.

India faces the China-engineered fait d'accompli of a nuclear-armed Pakistan, but we've not inflicted any penalty or cost upon them for doing so. So then who fears giving us the shaft? No one -- because there is never any price to pay for giving India the shaft, no matter how badly India gets shafted.

In order to make China rue its proliferation, India has to proliferate as well. Taiwan might be an obvious target. Or even Brazil, to change the power balance in Uncle's region.

Proliferation is concealable, as A Q Khan has shown, and as China has shown. So we can't be the nice guys who finish last, otherwise what's the point in our even wanting nuclear deterrence, or any kind of deterrence for that matter?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 01 Sep 2008 14:31

amit wrote:Rajesh,

If we need to further tests to improve our minimum credible deterrent then we need to do that irrespective of the NSG waiver or not. There can't be we can afford to wait if we get a waiver and we cannot afford to wait if we don't get the waiver.

You seem to think of the NSG waiver is a zero sum game. I don't think you noticed the point that I made in my previous post. That is there will be a lot of heart burn within the NSG regime among the countries which would be denied billions of dollars of potential revenues. And that IMO will make the NSG regime a lot more weaker.

An Indian test right after a walk out would deter that process. You gotta to remember that the meta objective is to bury all these stupid three and four letter treaties and what better way than to get the treaty members quarreling among themselves?

One point about sanctions. It's been explained time and again on this thread why this time around the sanctions would have a more severe repercussions on the Indian economy - just see Arnab's post(s) in the previous discussion thread.

Your point about just two years of abuse is just a personal opinion. I would postulate the effects would last far longer.

And also can you postulate how many tests we would need to be assured that we have a credible deterrent (assuming we don't have one now)? And how many kiloton tests, how many megaton tests do we need? What about weaponisation, delivery systems etc?

How many tests, spread over how many days, months or years do we need for that? Have you calculated all that?

Do note I also happen to believe that we'll have to test again, sooner or later and that we'll have to keep on testing till such time that we are satisfied. But that testing has to be done when we are ready and we know that we need to test - not because we're unhappy with the reaction at NSG and want to teach some pipsqueaks a lesson. That's what head over heart means IMO.


Amit,
I am not of the opinion, that India should try to bury the 3-4 letter Treaties. These treaties have gone a long way in assuring a certain level of stability in the world. Despite the problems with NK and Iran, these Treaties form the Fundamental Framework for Security in the world.

India's problem with NPT is that India cannot be a NWS, and with CTBT is that, we have, as of now, not tested enough for a tested credible minimum deterrent like the P-5, to proceed to sign and ratify CTBT, in case US, China and Pakistan also do so.

The NPT Problem is being solved through the NSG Waiver. Our Problem with CTBT however will remain. So my contention is that in this nuclear deal round, we should at least solve one of our two problems, either the NPT Problem with the NSG Waiver, and if that is not forthcoming, then our second problem with CTBT.

You are saying, we can solve the NPT Problem either by an NSG Waiver or a NSG Reorganization. You are saying there is a chance, that if the Pipsqueak reject the Waiver, US, Russia, France along with other major nuclear suppliers like Japan, UK, Canada, Australia, Germany can form another club, on the lines of London Club, and throw out countries like the Scandinavian countries, Ireland, Austria, New Zealand who are not major nuclear suppliers and as such are not cooperative. Or perhaps NSG can become a club of 2 Classes, a lot like UNSC, with some having a veto while others like the Pipsqueak less of a say.

If any such development were to take place, it would take place soon after the rejection of the NSG Waiver, and it would be soon clear to India. Perhaps we should speak of a Passport for Civilian Nuclear Trade with Major Nuclear Suppliers, instead of a NSG Waiver. NSG Waiver is one route of getting that passport. NSG Reorganization may be another route.

Whether we get the Passport through the NSG Waiver route will be clear on Sept 5. Whether we get it via NSG Reorganization route would be clear in the next couple of months.

On Sept 5, if we do not get the NSG Waiver, then we can at least express our Righteous Indignation. If in the next few months, we can undertake the preparations for the necessary tests, without announcing our intentions and wait for the Passport through the NSG Reorganization route. If that is also not forthcoming, then we should proceed with the tests.

What I am not saying is that if we do not get the NSG Waiver on Sept. 5, we should announce testing on Sept. 6.

Amit, what tests we may need or not, or how long that may take, is something I leave to more knowledgeable minds on this forum.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 01 Sep 2008 14:39

Sanjay M,

as far as proliferation goes, I believe Vietnam may be a better candidate than Taiwan. Also if we do not wish to test, we can get Vietnam to allow testing on their soil in exchange for nuclear technology.

However I must say, I do not like the ideal of Proliferation to anybody. I would say testing is better than proliferation any day.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Muppalla » 01 Sep 2008 15:21

Politically, it will be good to Test and also walk out of the deal for UPA. It is almost certain that they will checkmate BJP and NDA on nationalist issues. The Left will be blunted to as the discussion shift the gear just before elections.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby amit » 01 Sep 2008 15:24

Another mention of the Panda finally playing its hand.

New nuke draft reaches NSG members

Chinese take

Adding to the international pressure is a commentary in Monday's People's Daily, the ruling Chinese Communist Party's official paper.

The Chinese newspaper has called the nuclear agreement between India and the United States a "major blow" to non-proliferation. It reads:

"Whether it is motivated by geopolitical considerations or commercial interests, the US-India nuclear agreement has constituted a major blow to the international non-proliferation regime."


This could mean that the revised draft has only "cosmetic changes" and China will play its last card - one that it was hoping not to play. It used a number of easy cards before, namely:

1) Prakash Karat;
2) Pak "opposition" at IAEA;
3) (Maybe) the 50 amendments brought in by the pipsqueaks.

It's final card: open opposition at the NSG meeting on Sept4-5?

Interesting that it did not come forth in the Aug meeting. I guess it probably knew that there would be no decision at the Aug21 meeting.
Last edited by amit on 01 Sep 2008 15:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Hersh » 01 Sep 2008 15:25

We have been discussing on this forum all along what all sticks we can use against erring nations[NZ,swiss,Austria etc].
Can we also discuss any 'carrots' that we could offer [other than NSG stuff] in business or otherwise terms to make these countries amenable....it maybe a case-by-case affair?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby SSridhar » 01 Sep 2008 15:33

Hersh wrote:Can we also discuss any 'carrots' that we could offer [other than NSG stuff] in business or otherwise terms to make these countries amenable....it maybe a case-by-case affair?


Why, we can send more students to enroll in the few NZ universities to sustain themselves, encourage import of chocolates and we can encourage more Mozart appreciation among Indians.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby amit » 01 Sep 2008 16:06

SSridhar wrote:
Hersh wrote:Can we also discuss any 'carrots' that we could offer [other than NSG stuff] in business or otherwise terms to make these countries amenable....it maybe a case-by-case affair?


Why, we can send more students to enroll in the few NZ universities to sustain themselves, encourage import of chocolates and we can encourage more Mozart appreciation among Indians.


Let's also mandate more Bollywood movies being shot in the same scenic setting as Lord of the Rings (we can have an infinite number of sheep as extras) and also in the same mountains where Julie Andrews ran among the trees (albeit over clothed and in bright sunlight and not when it was pouring :( ) while signing: Do, Re, Me...

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Philip » 01 Sep 2008 16:55

India needs a Vladimir Putin to restore its independence and self respect.Under no circumstances must we even gvie the NSG/US the impression that we "voluntarily" stopped our nucear tests,or will "voluntarily" do so if the NSG gives us the nod.This is a non-negotiable principle,the violation of which will be tantamount to treason.But we have displayed sadly the style and service of a 5* butler,in attendence within and without the "presidential" suite.We wait for his kindly word of thanks like a loyal retainer,ever ready to serve at his lord and master's table instead of sitting down and dining with him as an equal! Why have we not openly revealed the changes made in the text of the earlier agreed draft unless we have compromised?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 01 Sep 2008 18:41

Chinese daily questions Indo-US N-deal: PTI

For the last couple of years, China did a lot to improve on its image of peaceful rise. The mask was going to come off sooner or later after the Beijing Olympics

As we saw more and more countries falling in, with the US on the question of NSG Waiver, China was bound to become more vocal. One can say, it is India's bad luck, that no agreement could be reached before the end of the Beijing Games. But Chinese criticism of Indo-US deal always needs some cover, be it Russia's, which would not be forthcoming now, or that of a few Pipsqueak, whose numbers are bound to dwindle, over the next days.

I am anxious to know, how far New Zealand would play into Panda's hands. Germany's Foreign Minister is another one susceptible to Chinese sensitivities, but he wouldn't be playing spoil-sport as long as the Deal also has strong Russian support.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 01 Sep 2008 19:19

Six NSG members hold out against clean waiver for India: IANS

Six countries in the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group have remained opposed to a “clean waiver” to India ahead of its meeting here this week and some of them have said they were under pressure to reach a “constructive conclusion” to allow global nuclear commerce with New Delhi.“We are under pressure to agree to an acceptable compromise at the Sep 4-5 meeting,” a western diplomat, whose country is one of the six NSG members opposed to a ‘clean waiver’, told IANS here Monday.

The six countries - Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway and Switzerland - made it clear that changes in the new draft for waiver were “minimal” and “cosmetic” and fail to address their concerns on non-proliferation.

They met Monday to decide whether they can take a common position to register their concerns on the new draft the US has circulated and wanted to be passed at the NSG meeting.

“My government received the revised draft from the US last Saturday. There was no business over the weekend. The government had its first look at the draft on Monday morning,” the diplomat said on condition of anonymity.

The diplomat added that the draft has the government’s “full attention” at the moment but it was still “unsure” over an unconditional waiver.

When the 45-member NSG met here last month, the member countries were unable to decide on the India-specific waiver without first bringing in provisions that would specify that all trade with India would end if it conducted further nuclear tests.

After its series of nuclear tests in May 1998, India has announced a voluntary moratorium on testing. But it has so far not signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty that prevents countries from conducting further nuclear tests. Nor has it signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

India needs all the NSG members to agree to the “waiver” as all decisions in the Group are taken by consensus.

An Austrian diplomat studying the draft described the changes in the new draft as “minimal”.

“This is too important an issue for us to be pressured into taking a quick decision,” he said.

Diplomats asking not to be quoted by name or country said that hectic consultations among NSG members continued all Monday and some like-minded countries had an informal meeting in the afternoon.

The process was described as “fluid” three days before the NSG meet.

“We are not being difficult. We are not hardliners. We consider our nonproliferation concerns very legitimate. We respect and admire the steps taken by India in the past over nonproliferation but we are concerned about the future,” yet another western diplomat said.

The NSG waiver is essential for India so that the nuclear deal it plans to sign with the US can be put before the American Congress by this month for its final approval.

Though the six countries have taken the lead against a “clean waiver” for India, there are about 20 others that also have their reservations on granting the special concession to New Delhi without getting any firm commitment from it.

India has made it clear that it will not allow any “prescriptive” conditions in the waiver.

The new draft that the US has prepared was approved by India only after days of negotiations and consultation to ensure that its language does not contain anything that can be construed as interfering with the country’s sovereign rights.


Mona Lisa is not the only one with an enigmatic smile. Others like smiling also. :twisted: Lächeln ist gesund!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 01 Sep 2008 19:35

Naryanan Vishada yogam>

"If the US threatens to cut visas for daddy-Os vijiting their pyaree baccchee and parivar in the US, the guvrmand will immediately sign CTBT and NPT and FMCT. So I wouldn't be so cocky about the modern Indian ability to shrug off sanctions etc. The world has of course changed since 1998 - but the Consumer economy is built on a foundation of cards. Take away the exports because of sanctions, and everything collapses. At least in 1974 we only had a short way to fall, to hit the stable bottom.

There is a difference between "FEAR" of sanctions, and STUPIDITY in inviting them. It's like - I don't live in FEAR of the Adminullahs here, but I agree that it would be STUPID to invite being banned.

But should I let that deprive me of "testing" on some deserving candidates once in a while??? Clearly the Deterrent is being called into question....

BTW, I fully agree with Manny that

Quote:
India is outside the NPT, CTBT and NSG. It has no obligation to any of its rules! Period!


BUT... u don't need to vaporize the good soil of Mother India to prove that. You can just SAY it..... Maybe present Lotas saying that to every NSG member."


Naryananan guru,
There are three things at work in this world that you have espoused time immemorial.

Prarabdha( that which is past and we have only to reference but cant be done anything about).
Purushardha(the righteous path to action),
Dharmardha (dharmardha meaning here for the sake of righteous cause, and the duty to which the rulers is bound to).


The prarabdha is 1964 when PRC thermo nuke tests were conducted,
In 1968 the formation of NPT,
In 1974 Nuclear test,
In 1974 NSG formation,
In 1987 TSP device cold test ,
In 1998 TSP Gauri test, .

The Purushardha was
In 1998 Indian tests, unilateral moritorium,
In 2003 123 J 18 in good faith.

If the good faith of 123 J18 NSG waiver do not come through, then the

Dharmardha would be to destroy the false (adharma) world order of P-5 and its 100 brothers at NSG as it ushers testing times for dharma.

Now based on your worry about retribution of Grand ma and Grand pa not getting visas, or Payare ladla not going to bidesh toget Ms degree is Prarabdha of testing times.

Imagine a world ( in the vien of John Lenon) where Gandhi stopped Salt Satyagraha on fears that the British Umpire would rain stones and Lathis on Indians!

There fore leave despondency of Vishaad yoga to us mere mortals like Arjunas and be the Naryanan who woul uvahca

"Give peace a chance, destroy TS Pakistan"

Namonamaha Naryanan jagadgurum. Get into your viswarupam not a mere shadow of it.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 01 Sep 2008 20:42

Snow Devo bhava!!

X-posting: A scramjet that cruises at 17290 km/hr

Could make testing meaningless.

2010, eh? Time to Wellington could be a few minutes. No need to visit ports when loitering could solve that problem.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Abhijit » 01 Sep 2008 20:44

spinster gaaru, sashtanga namaskaram for a post worthy of eternal archival - the wit and the poignancy is amazing.

However, for a mere perplexed soul such as I, it is not clear what are the goals to be achieved by testing now (in case of an NSG skulduggery). People seem to have claimed that testing now will destroy the NPT once and forever (unless I am wrong in inferring this). How does it come to pass? If we walk away from this deal we can always test at a time of our choosing, no?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Arun_S » 01 Sep 2008 20:52

John Snow wrote:Naryanan Vishada yogam>

"If the US threatens to cut visas for daddy-Os vijiting their pyaree baccchee and parivar in the US, the guvrmand will immediately sign CTBT and NPT and FMCT. So I wouldn't be so cocky about the modern Indian ability to shrug off sanctions etc. The world has of course changed since 1998 - but the Consumer economy is built on a foundation of cards. Take away the exports because of sanctions, and everything collapses. At least in 1974 we only had a short way to fall, to hit the stable bottom.

There is a difference between "FEAR" of sanctions, and STUPIDITY in inviting them. It's like - I don't live in FEAR of the Adminullahs here, but I agree that it would be STUPID to invite being banned.

But should I let that deprive me of "testing" on some deserving candidates once in a while??? Clearly the Deterrent is being called into question....

BTW, I fully agree with Manny that

Quote:
India is outside the NPT, CTBT and NSG. It has no obligation to any of its rules! Period!


BUT... u don't need to vaporize the good soil of Mother India to prove that. You can just SAY it..... Maybe present Lotas saying that to every NSG member."


Naryananan guru,
There are three things at work in this world that you have espoused time immemorial.

Prarabdha( that which is past and we have only to reference but cant be done anything about).
Purushardha(the righteous path to action),
Dharmardha (dharmardha meaning here for the sake of righteous cause, and the duty to which the rulers is bound to).


The prarabdha is 1964 when PRC thermo nuke tests were conducted,
In 1968 the formation of NPT,
In 1974 Nuclear test,
In 1974 NSG formation,
In 1987 TSP device cold test ,
In 1998 TSP Gauri test, .

The Purushardha was
In 1998 Indian tests, unilateral moritorium,
In 2003 123 J 18 in good faith.

If the good faith of 123 J18 NSG waiver do not come through, then the

Dharmardha would be to destroy the false (adharma) world order of P-5 and its 100 brothers at NSG as it ushers testing times for dharma.

Now based on your worry about retribution of Grand ma and Grand pa not getting visas, or Payare ladla not going to bidesh toget Ms degree is Prarabdha of testing times.

Imagine a world ( in the vien of John Lenon) where Gandhi stopped Salt Satyagraha on fears that the British Umpire would rain stones and Lathis on Indians!

There fore leave despondency of Vishaad yoga to us mere mortals like Arjunas and be the Naryanan who woul uvahca

"Give peace a chance, destroy TS Pakistan"

Namonamaha Naryanan jagadgurum. Get into your viswarupam not a mere shadow of it.

Wah Wah! Jaisy ko Taisa Uttar. Amrut to the vish of Vishad :wink:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Suppiah » 01 Sep 2008 20:53

http://www.hinduonnet.com/holnus/000200809011965.htm

China bares its fangs. Since Karrot has failed, now with no options left, it may resort to the stick at the NSG?. Read this before the politburo instructs that this be taken off from the website. You can bet it will not figure in tomorrow's main paper.

Sorry had posted in wrong thread earlier.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 01 Sep 2008 21:01

NRao Ji,

Have some mercy on the poor Kiwis, Sir. After all, there should be some difference between Indians and Ahmedinejad, right!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby harbans » 01 Sep 2008 21:18

N Rao Ji was thinking along the similar lines. If this is a success then we would'nt need conventional ICBMs. What difference do these planes make to testing options?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby BSR Murthy » 01 Sep 2008 21:50

My other brother Daryl is on NDTV now.
Siddarth Varadarajan and Amb. Mansingh are on as well.
Last edited by BSR Murthy on 01 Sep 2008 21:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sanjaykumar » 01 Sep 2008 21:52

These space planes are theoretical, the last time I checked one was supposed to fly in 2005. Flight by 2009? You be the judge.

The only prediction I can make based on this report is that no Indian hyperplane will fly by 2009.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 01 Sep 2008 22:37

Rajesh, the right response to show our displeasure may be something like this:

1. Announce deal with Russia for 4 more reactors at Koodamkulam (that leaves only 36 more under what would have been the Civilian Nuke Deal)

2. Announce massive plan for investment in solar, wind and hydroelectric power, but announce formation of the Greater Asia Renewables Group (GARG), with membership limited to those nations which will conclude bilateral civilian nuclear energy and technology cooperation agreements with India under the terms of the IAEA agreement already formulated, but modified to reflect the terms applicable to a Nuclear Weapon State (like, see China IAEA agreement).

IOW, any nation that does not agree gets cut out of all energy-related contracts with India, period. No turbines, no instruments, no solar cells, no wind turbine blade, no nothing. The US may or may not join, since the US at least claims to have tried to bring about an improvement, depending on what the WHOTUS believes the COTUS will agree.

This way, Hyde becomes moot, the NSG should be ignored and allowed to collapse under the weight of its own baggage, and India should use those hajaar Billions of $$ that would have been spent on nuke energy, on renewables. Meanwhile, India will also freely trade nuclear materials with anyone India pleases to trade with - Lok Sabha should pass such a law right away.

3. Then start concluding bilateral agreements, as a weapon power, but completely independent of the NSG. At this point I think there will be more takers - first Russia, then maybe CHINA... then the rest will fall in place swiftly. Israel, Brazil, Venezuela, Vietnam.

Are they going to put "sanctions" on India for developing Renewable energy? Or for trading nuclear-related components outside the NPT? On what basis?

So now the issue becomes whether these nations want to deny nuclear cooperation to India so badly that they are willing to forego a fast-paced, lucrative development in Renewable Energy in the second decade of the 21st century.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Prem » 01 Sep 2008 22:47

RajeshA wrote:NRao Ji,

Have some mercy on the poor Kiwis, Sir. After all, there should be some difference between Indians and Ahmedinejad, right!


Lawd God will have mercy and sort (separate) them out .Our duty ought to be to show them the righteous path .

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sean » 01 Sep 2008 23:07

Does the 1988 agreement with Russia put any cap on the number of reactors/fuel it can supply India?How does the Russian list price of $2 billion per 1000MW reactor compare to western reactors?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 02 Sep 2008 00:29

Sean wrote:Does the 1988 agreement with Russia put any cap on the number of reactors/fuel it can supply India?How does the Russian list price of $2 billion per 1000MW reactor compare to western reactors?


Cost is a dependent on plenty of factors, including, I would assume the relationship between the US and RU. Assumes that Indian politicians are clueless all through the curve.

sanjaykumar wrote:These space planes are theoretical, the last time I checked one was supposed to fly in 2005. Flight by 2009? You be the judge.

The only prediction I can make based on this report is that no Indian hyperplane will fly by 2009.


Sound observation. However, it does have a totally different concept (extracting O2 from air as it flies), right? A complex one at that.

harbans wrote:N Rao Ji was thinking along the similar lines. If this is a success then we would'nt need conventional ICBMs. What difference do these planes make to testing options?


Janab, testing? I was talking of testing FAE. I mean, since it gens O2 on-board, why not test a FAE? Simple thinking I would think.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... reball.JPG

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 02 Sep 2008 01:07

Just start digging tunnels in Pokran, if they pay attention well and good, if not the work will go on, that is called testing.

Testing a device is at our convenience.

Testing their resolve to adhere to 123 is now.
Last edited by John Snow on 02 Sep 2008 01:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby awagaman » 02 Sep 2008 01:08

Text of People's Daily commentary on the Indian nuclear deal

Someone posted the PTI report but I found Siddharth Varadarajan's English translation of the article on his blog.

http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... ndian.html

In diplomacy, timing is everything. One day after the U.S. circulated a new draft proposal to grant India a waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group's export rules, China's authoritative People's Daily has carried a commentary attacking the U.S. for its "double standards on non-proliferation". The piece also echoes -- without directly endorsing -- the demand raised by several states at the NSG meeting on August 21-22 (but not by China directly) for the waiver to be made conditional.

The commentary is by Fan Jishe of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. Fan is also a former fellow of Harvard's Belfer Center 'Project on Managing the Atom'.

For those of you know Mandarin, the original article is here. I presume People's Daily will publish an official translation soon but I am enclosing an unofficial translation of the piece into English ... [On October 26, 2005, the People's Daily published a more general but equally sceptical commentary on the Indo-US deal by Xin Benjian titled 'Who's pushing nuclear proliferation'. An English version is avalable here.] ...

US-India nuclear agreement in difficulty


Fan Jishe
People's Daily
September 1, 2008

Recently, the Nuclear Suppliers Group of 45 member states ended a two-day meeting in which they failed to reach a consensus on whether to lift their embargo on India's nuclear sector. Earlier, on August 1, the Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency approved India’s safeguards agreement. Following this, the United States approached the Nuclear Suppliers Group on the basis of the relevant US-India civilian nuclear cooperation Act, to modify its rules and lift the ban on India's nuclear trade. But contrary to what the US asked, the NSG plenary sought about 50 amendments. Now, the Nuclear Suppliers Group's next meeting will be in early September but it unknown whether the US-India agreement will get the green signal.

The safeguards agreement India signed with the IAEA is a very loose, non-binding agreement. It does not clarify which Indian nuclear facilities must be under IAEA guarantee and supervision, and it also does not expressly require all Indian civilian nuclear facilities and nuclear fuel to be under permanent, unconditional safeguards. This has aroused the worries of an international non-proliferation expert: “India is enjoying the benefits of a party to the "Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty" without being bound to accept the corresponding restraints”.

The proposal presented by the United States to the Nuclear Suppliers Group was also vague version, so the relevant parties were not satisfied. In the draft submitted by the United States, two crucial non-proliferation questions have not been clearly answered: Under what conditions should the international community lift the ban on nuclear trade? And under what circumstances would it put an end to Indian nuclear trade, limiting vertical nuclear proliferation by India. The proposal does not require India to stop production of fissile material. And though India has promised to stop nuclear tests, the proposal did not say that if India conducts a nuclear test, other countries should put an end to Indian nuclear trade. In other words, if the supply of nuclear fuel is not linked by the NSG to India's nuclear tests, India cannot be strictly held to its non-proliferation obligations. Also, the draft did not provide for periodic evaluation of India’s mandatory compliance with the exemption provisions. The proposal did not even strictly limit India’s access to sensitive nuclear technology and equipment imports, especially uranium enrichment equipment, reprocessing and heavy water production items and technologies. This is undoubtedly conducive to India improving the number and quality of its nuclear weapons.

Whether because of geostrategic considerations or driven by commercial interests, the US-India nuclear agreement will have a significant impact on the international non-proliferation mechanism. That is why the Nuclear Suppliers Group member countries are generally calling for termination of the exemption if India conducts nuclear tests or is in non-compliance with safeguards agreements, strictly limiting the supply to India of sensitive nuclear technology and nuclear equipment exports, and Indian compliance with the provisions of the exemption to be subjected to regular assessment.

The U.S. is eager to push the US-India nuclear agreement for the removal of barriers so as to turn it into the Bush administration's diplomatic legacy but the administration is likely to find the completion of this task is still very difficult. The first difficulty might be if in the beginning of September the Nuclear Suppliers Group cannot reach a consensus on this proposal. Second, even if it gets the Nuclear Suppliers Group’s permission, the U.S. domestic legal procedures still present problems, including problems of time and the terms of the agreement. According to the 2006 "Hyde Act," the Bush administration must let Congress have 30 days to consider whether to approve the US-India nuclear agreement, while Congress plans to adjourn September 26. In addition, whether the agreement will be passed in Congress is also uncertain given the “Hyde Act’s” non-proliferation benchmarks.

33 years ago, because of India's nuclear tests, the United States advocated and promoted the establishment of the Nuclear Suppliers Group to restrict nuclear trade. Once again it is also the United States which, in order to advance geo-strategic and commercial interests, is asking the Nuclear Suppliers Group to open a "backdoor" for India. Regardless of the future fate of the US-India nuclear agreement, the world will question the United States for its double standards on non-proliferation.

(The author is an associate researcher at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences)

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby kshirin » 02 Sep 2008 01:20

Philip wrote:India needs a Vladimir Putin to restore its independence and self respect.Under no circumstances must we even gvie the NSG/US the impression that we "voluntarily" stopped our nucear tests,or will "voluntarily" do so if the NSG gives us the nod.This is a non-negotiable principle,the violation of which will be tantamount to treason.But we have displayed sadly the style and service of a 5* butler,in attendence within and without the "presidential" suite.We wait for his kindly word of thanks like a loyal retainer,ever ready to serve at his lord and master's table instead of sitting down and dining with him as an equal! Why have we not openly revealed the changes made in the text of the earlier agreed draft unless we have compromised?


I second that, a Vladimir Putin to deliver on self respect and national strength and a Deng Xiao Ping to further liberate the potential of the economy. I must say I cant seem to find any politician except JP in post Independence India to inspire and revere and he was untested in the executive. Can anyone correct me? We need heroes.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Pulikeshi » 02 Sep 2008 01:49

1. China is :(( about Unkils hypocrisy onlee! And, that is their problem - mera kya jata?

It is less important what the Chines say/write than what they do -
Unless they overtly work in concert to oppose the waiver, the noise can be ignored.

2. If the Devataa (NSG) do not want an alternate heaven, then they
will have to allow poor Trishanku the opportunity to enter heaven with his body - perhaps in the process destroying heaven!
Vishwamitra has already given Trishanku his word, cannot be taken back without upsetting the order of the universe!

Its Heaven (NSG) that is under threat, not Trishanku!

Trishanku can have his Swarg despite heaven, but heaven will always be under threat by Trishanku - bum testing or not!

We should stay off the topic of testing in this thread - it only makes the jingos egos feel better.
This is a civilian nuclear deal and as such Trishanku has the power to either let heaven exist or not!

Time for MMS to chill and open a cool one! :mrgreen:
The rest of you can do the same and watch Kimball undergo beja-fry!

No deal means what? The Elephant keeps moving along onlee!

The GOI has been and will be an Elephant, no point wishing it become a Tiger overnight!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 02 Sep 2008 01:57

Question for the Gurus here:

Can somebody please recommend some online treatise on India's historical experience with NPT and CTBT, especially in the embryonic phase of these treaties, and our opposition to these.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Gerard » 02 Sep 2008 02:09



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