India nuclear news and discussion

SureshP
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India nuclear news and discussion

Postby SureshP » 06 Sep 2008 17:12

45-nation group OKs landmark US-India nuke deal Print article
Refer to a friend

© AP
2008-09-06 13:43:02 -


VIENNA, Austria (AP) - Nations that supply nuclear material and technology overcame fierce obstacles Saturday and approved a landmark U.S. plan to engage in atomic trade with India _ a deal that reverses more than three decades of American policy.
The Nuclear Suppliers Group, which governs the legal world trade in nuclear components and know-how,

signed off on the deal after three days of contentious talks and some concessions to countries fearful it could set a dangerous precedent.
«Today we have reached a landmark decision to allow for civilian nuclear trade with India,» John Rood, acting U.S. undersecretary of state for arms control issues, told reporters.
«This is a historical moment for the NSG, for India and for India's relations with the rest of the world,» he said.
Austria, one of the holdouts along with Ireland and New Zealand, said it lifted its objections after India pledged on Friday not to touch off a new nuclear arms race or share sensitive nuclear technology with other countries.
In a statement, the Austrian government called that pledge «decisive,» and Rood said it «played a major role» in removing obstacles to an agreement.

India has tested atomic weapons and refused to sign international nonproliferation treaties.
The U.S. needed approval from the nuclear group, which governs the legal trade in nuclear components and technology, and from the International Atomic Energy Agency, which signed off on the deal last month.
«We're very pleased that we were able to reach a compromise that everyone could live with,» said the chief British envoy, Simon Smith.
But the plan still needs backing from U.S. Congress, and the Bush administration must now race to get approval before lawmakers recess for the rest of the year to devote time to their re-election campaigns.

Before the 45-nation nuclear group approved the deal, U.S. officials had contended that selling peaceful nuclear technology to India would bring the country's atomic program under closer scrutiny and boost _ not undermine _ international nonproliferation efforts.
Rood said it would help meet India's growing energy needs while helping the developing country _ a major polluter _ cut back on harmful emissions that experts warn are contributing to global warming.
The group was founded as a direct result of India's 1974 atomic test blasts. India tested nuclear weapons most recently in 1998, and opponents have expressed concerns that bending the rules to allow nuclear trade with New Delhi undermines the global effort to discourage the production of weapons of mass destruction.
Officials said Saturday's breakthrough came after U.S. President George W. Bush personally intervened to lobby allies at the nuclear group to approve the trade waiver.
«The U.S. government engaged in an intense diplomatic effort,» Rood said.


Daryl Kimball, executive director of the Washington-based Arms Control Association, accused the U.S. delegation of resorting to «some nasty threats, misinformation about positions and intimidation to try to wear down» the three holdout countries. U.S. officials had no immediate comment.
On the Net
http://www.nuclearsuppliersgroup.org
http://www.armscontrol.org

http://www.pr-inside.com/nation-group-oks-landmark-us-india-nuke-r791470.htm
Last edited by SureshP on 06 Sep 2008 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2008 17:14

the verbal gas generated by that shrew woman would serve in lieu of
uranium for a number of years.

we need dual-use nuclear-gasturbine (CONAG) plants though.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 17:16

From "Peopre's Dairy"

The impeliarist capitarists and theil lunning dogs and camp-forrowels today folce the 45-nation Nucreal Suppliers Gloup to applove tlading with blown lound-eyes to the south. The Peopre's Leplesentatives in Vienna have been lecarred to Beijing for expranation and le-education.
The Peopre's Lepubric deproles this glave ellol and walns of vely vely vely glave consequences.

Thele is NO tluth to the lumoul that Mrs. Xiao Bushy thleatend to not buy any mole pulses flom China.

War Malt in Kahuta wirr now cally Brue Right Speciar on W-88 Amelican-design new creal bumb. Designed in USA. Manufactured in China.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 17:22

There is a good possibility US congress will approve 123 by the time MMS meets GB later this month.
Scheduling of MMS trip to DC and Sen meeting both Obama and McCain earlier this week suggests that.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Victor » 06 Sep 2008 17:24

So now does India join NSG? :mrgreen:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby SSridhar » 06 Sep 2008 17:30

Victor wrote:So now does India join NSG? :mrgreen:


No, that should be the next step.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby rahulm » 06 Sep 2008 17:32

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/06/2357401.htm?section=justin Nuclear suppliers approve US-India deal

I think we should wait for the final text to be released.


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 17:49

IBN has been reporting that there is no ban on Reprocessing Technology. => There is a ban on Enrichment Technology.

Earlier there was a report, that India will not be allowed to obtain enrichment technology which can be replicated and used in making weapon-grade uranium.

1. It is not clear, if it is still possible to import any enrichment technology at all.

2. As far as nuclear testing is concerned, any NSG Member can bring the issue for consultation. However there will be no automatic termination on testing and a consensus will be required, which ensures that India would keep her relations with Russia warm.

3. I believe India has almost committed to sign on to any FMC Treaty, which comes along.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rupesh » 06 Sep 2008 17:51

So MMS and Dubya already had things planned out. It appeared like the time bombs in movies where the bomb is disabled with 2 seconds to go... :mrgreen:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 17:55

RajeshA wrote:3. I believe India has almost committed to sign on to any FMC Treaty, which comes along.


Not any. Only universal and verifiable. Unkil doesn't want verification so FMCT may never see light
of day.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby harbans » 06 Sep 2008 18:03

The issue also to consider is if US Congress ratifies the CTBT in the next year or so. If all powers ratify it, will India hold out? In the case the US does ratify it, it would'nt make a difference if India was in in our out of this deal. We'd be under pressure to confirm. Or are we worse of being in the deals framework?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby jerry » 06 Sep 2008 18:09

For those who were debating about our bums!

Was just listening to Brajesh Mishra's interview on NDTV and he said that when ABV said about unilateral moratirum there was a lot of thinking behind it by them and the scientists and he feels that there is no need for India to test unless another country tests and he wouldnt like to name that country and India feels a risk from that test.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 18:19

jerry wrote:For those who were debating about our bums!

Was just listening to Brajesh Mishra's interview on NDTV and he said that when ABV said about unilateral moratirum there was a lot of thinking behind it by them and the scientists and he feels that there is no need for India to test unless another country tests and he wouldnt like to name that country and India feels a risk from that test.


Thanks for posting that. Hope they will put it up on NDTV website.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 18:26

What a thriller! Almost like 1983 world cup ( I say world cup because there were world wide venues involvolved, DC, ND, Vienna, Bejing, auckland etc)

Congrats to the Captain Singh for delevering what he said he would do in Loksabha.
The ends justified the means in this case.

Now let GOI put a flag in Niger before panda gets there :mrgreen:
Last edited by John Snow on 06 Sep 2008 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 18:27

harbans wrote:The issue also to consider is if US Congress ratifies the CTBT in the next year or so. If all powers ratify it, will India hold out? In the case the US does ratify it, it would'nt make a difference if India was in in our out of this deal. We'd be under pressure to confirm. Or are we worse of being in the deals framework?


India will sign on. 123 is backdoor CTBT anyway. GoI and scicom is ok with that. CTBT is only a formality.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Mort Walker » 06 Sep 2008 18:29

I wonder what Dubya & co. said to these three holdouts?

Anyway, congratulations to AK and the negotiation team. Now the ball is in the court of the US Congress, and its election time in the US, would they be willing to be seen as anti-Indian?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 18:33

Yup, also heard Brajesh Mishra say that considering that CTBT may be approved by US Senate next year and thereupon by China, India should not be standing in the way of its adoption.

Which is like giving BJP a hint, that all this noise about sovereignty on testing, is only that - a whole lot of noise.

sivab,
Automatic Termination of Nuclear Trade on India Testing is not in the Waiver. Even in 123 Agreement, testing implies possible termination of agreement, but is also not CTBT, because in the latter, one concedes one's right to test (except for the security based exception)

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Manny » 06 Sep 2008 18:34

I'd like to know what specific written modifications were done.

But

Daryl Kimball, executive director of the Washington-based Arms Control Association, accused the U.S. delegation of resorting to "some nasty threats, misinformation about positions and intimidation to try to wear down" the three holdout countries. U.S. officials had no immediate comment. - AP

Sounds sweet to my ears! That must mean good for India.

Manny

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 18:35

John Snow wrote:What a thriller! Almost like 1983 world cup ( I say world cup because there were world wide venues involvolved, DC, ND, Vienna, Bejing, auckland etc)

Congrats to the Captain Singh for delevering what he said he would do in Loksabha.
The ends justified the means in this case.

Now let GOI put a flag in Niger before panda gets there :mrgreen:


...and Namibia, and Uzbekistan, and everywhere else in between where we smell uranium. :)

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 18:37

Manny wrote:I'd like to know what specific written modifications were done.

But

Daryl Kimball, executive director of the Washington-based Arms Control Association, accused the U.S. delegation of resorting to "some nasty threats, misinformation about positions and intimidation to try to wear down" the three holdout countries. U.S. officials had no immediate comment. - AP

Sounds sweet to my ears! That must mean good for India.

Manny


No response on www.armscontrol.org as yet. I am so sad. :(( :(( :((

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 18:41

RajeshA wrote:Yup, also heard Brajesh Mishra say that considering that CTBT may be approved by US Senate next year and thereupon by China, India should not be standing in the way of its adoption.

Which is like giving BJP a hint, that all this noise about sovereignty on testing, is only that - a whole lot of noise.

sivab,
Automatic Termination of Nuclear Trade on India Testing is not in the Waiver. Even in 123 Agreement, testing implies possible termination of agreement, but is also not CTBT, because in the latter, one concedes one's right to test (except for the security based exception)


For all practical purposes both are one and same. In either case India can test in supreme national interest and in either case its up to individual governments to decide on whether to continue trading with India or not.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Gerard » 06 Sep 2008 18:44

http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/

I just came away from a press conference by Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon. I have also had a chance to speak off the record with a number of diplomats -- European and Indian.

The text approved incorporated some changes to the second draft which was circulated last week. These changes do not cross any of India's red lines, and they were seen by NSG members as genuinely strengthening the nonproliferation regime.

I shall provide more details in The Hindu tomorrow but based on what I have heard and seen, the waiver allows India to enter into full civil nuclear cooperation with members of the NSG. A major new change is a reference to the External Affairs minister's statement yesterday reiterating India's nonproliferation commitments, including to its unilateral, voluntary moratorium. There are no post-conditions providing for automatic termination of supply if some member state feels India is not living up to its non-proliferation commitments. The NSG always has the right to consult and convene in case members feel this has happened but a decision to cut off supplies will have to be adopted by consensus. There are no separate restrictions on enrichment and reprocessing technology exports.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 06 Sep 2008 18:46

Do we have a non-typewriter version of the waiver as yet?

RA,

Enrichment - 123/IAEA/etc - it is still restricted to some 5/20%.

For India to use it in three phase it needs some 80+% IIRC.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 06 Sep 2008 18:46

Good job GoI and USA. Now lets wait till we get the full document, then we can start :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :evil: :evil: :evil:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 18:49

NDTV has a video, NSA says kind of disappointed with china. :mrgreen:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 06 Sep 2008 18:55

Nuclear nations approve disputed India trade waiver


By Mark Heinrich

VIENNA (Reuters) - Forty-five nations approved a U.S. proposal on Saturday to lift a global ban on nuclear trade with India in a breakthrough towards sealing a controversial U.S.-Indian atomic energy deal.

One hurdle remained before the U.S.-India deal can take force -- ratification by the U.S. Congress. It must act before adjourning in late September for elections or the deal could be left to an uncertain fate under a new U.S. administration.

The U.S.-India deal raised international misgivings since India has shunned the almost universal Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) meant to stop the spread and production of nuclear weapons and mandate gradual disarmament, and a companion test ban pact.

Washington says the fuel and technology deal would forge a strategic partnership with the world's largest democracy, help India meet exploding energy demand in an environmentally sound way and open a nuclear market worth billions of dollars.

Nuclear Suppliers Group nations adopted a one-off waiver allowing them to do business with India after several small NSG states agreed under heavy U.S. pressure to weaker language than they had sought to ensure India does not test atom bombs again.

After two weeks of feverish meetings and long-distance consultations, resistance to the exemption finally crumbled when six holdout states reluctantly accepted an Indian declaration on Friday reinforcing a commitment to a voluntary test moratorium.

It also said India -- whose regional rival Pakistan also has nuclear firepower outside the NPT -- would not join any future nuclear arms race, would permit broader U.N. inspections and adhered to the NSG anti-proliferation export control regime.

The NSG consensus was also based on "a number of understandings" against exports of fuel-enrichment technology able to produce peaceful energy or bombs, diplomats said.
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh greeted news of the waiver with delight, saying "This is a forward-looking and momentous decision."

"It marks the end of India's decades-long isolation from the nuclear mainstream and of the technology denial regime," he said in a statement. "The opening of full civil nuclear cooperation between India and the international community will be good for India and for the world."

UNPRECEDENTED OPENING TO INDIA

"Based on commitments in the political declaration of (India's foreign ministry), "participating states have decided on the following policy" -- the unprecedented waiver, the final of several revised U.S. drafts for the move read.

"But for the first time in my experience of international diplomatic negotiations, a consensus decision was followed by complete silence in the room. No clapping, nothing," a European diplomat in the Vienna gathering said.

"It showed a lot of us felt pressured to some extent into a decision by the Americans and few were totally satisfied."

Diplomats said the final draft cited only the need for a special NSG meeting if India reneged on its commitments.

"The problem here is that the NSG works only on the basis of consensus. So if India did another test the follow-up meeting could be reduced to a talkshop by any one member like the Americans," said another diplomat.

"It's not clear we could take action as a group."
A senior pro-waiver diplomat said: "It was an incredibly complicated political and technological negotiation. In the end 45 countries came together to support Indian energy requirements and welcome it into the world's non-proliferation mainstream."

"NPT RIP (rest in peace)?" said another, dismayed diplomat.
:rotfl: :rotfl: NSG critics and disarmament campaigners fear Indian access to nuclear material markets will let it tap into more of its limited indigenous resources, such as uranium fuel, to boost its nuclear arsenal, and drive Pakistan into another arms race.

Intense U.S. pressure for the waiver involved overnight phone calls to presidents and prime ministers of holdout countries, several diplomats said.

Six NSG nations had been demanding a clause stipulating an automatic cessation of the waiver if India tested another bomb.

After India's statement, the holdout group splintered as Norway, the Netherlands and Switzerland indicated they could accept more limited language, diplomats said. Ireland, Austria and New Zealand fell into line on Saturday.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby ShauryaT » 06 Sep 2008 19:01

RajeshA wrote:Yup, also heard Brajesh Mishra say that considering that CTBT may be approved by US Senate next year and thereupon by China, India should not be standing in the way of its adoption.

Which is like giving BJP a hint, that all this noise about sovereignty on testing, is only that - a whole lot of noise.
Do not go by what Brajesh Mishra says. He was NSA, not due to any consensus in the BJP, in fact most were not in favor of him continuing. He was NSA due to one man, ABV. Brajesh Mishra never was a BJP man. LKA is on record that he was opposed to BM being NSA.

So, What BM says has no weight on how the BJP is thinking on the issue.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby vsudhir » 06 Sep 2008 19:03

Would also be useful to watch out for J&K developments here on now that the NSG tango is over. The NSGdeliberations had stayed our hand and allowed the geelani ishtyle jihadists to hijack the agenda there. Time some phree-PR-vhoring 'secessionist elements, apologist compounds and inert gases' learn the meaning of consequences to bad karma....

Also, wkith ze NSG waiver outta ze way, would be oh-so-nice if GoI (UPA sarkar) approved urgent funding for our own LIF and put out tenders for some 'whether'-modeling superkomputers onlee.... Hey, long shot, I know.....but as someone drunkie said long back:

you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the onlee one....


:mrgreen:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Victor » 06 Sep 2008 19:08

One can now expect the NGO/foreign-supported Khasi Students Union to allow GoI to mine uranium in Meghalaya. GoI should say "we will consider it" because we have other options now. Let the Meghalaya offer sops till they bleed and then open a mine with minimal other development. Anti national vermin should stay poor in the backwoods for some more time.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby ShauryaT » 06 Sep 2008 19:09

Sounds like the BJP. "400 nukes, thermonuke tests... " where have I heard the demands for these before, I wonder???
Just by the very top military nuclear strategists of the country, which you have dismissed with a single line. So, what worth to you are the views of a lowly political party?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby rsingh » 06 Sep 2008 19:09

Austria, one of the holdouts along with Ireland and New Zealand, said it lifted its objections after India pledged on Friday not to touch off a new nuclear arms race or share sensitive nuclear technology with other countries.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Last edited by rsingh on 06 Sep 2008 19:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Gerard » 06 Sep 2008 19:11

The NSG consensus was also based on "a number of understandings" against exports of fuel-enrichment technology able to produce peaceful energy or bombs, diplomats said.


An off the record embargo?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby JaiS » 06 Sep 2008 19:12

Quite a roller coaster ride !

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Gerard » 06 Sep 2008 19:17

India's legal right to conduct N tests preserved: Kakodkar
India's "legal" right to conduct nuclear tests has been fully preserved and the country has not made any commitment in this regard to gain the waiver from the NSG to participate in nuclear commerce, Anil Kakodkar, Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission said today.
"There is no explicit mention of (nuclear) testing (in the NSG waiver)," he told reporters here making it clear that the exemption granted to India by the 45-nation cartel met all requirements of the Department of Atomic Energy.

"We have made no legal commitment (on nuclear tests)," Kakodkar said underlining that India has already made a unilateral, voluntary moratorium on conducting atomic tests.

"Today is an important day as we have achieved a major breakthrough," he said and termed the waiver to India as "unique" as it will open the doors for the country to take part in international civil nuclear commerce after 34 years of isolation.

Asked about the amendments India had to accept to win over sceptical NSG members, he said "there is nothing significant. You can see it for yourself when the waiver document is made public by the NSG shortly. It is a straightforward document." "There is no specific targeting of India on anything," the country's top nuclear scientist said.

"I think it is clear that people have understood and recognised the importance of this exemption for India from India's track record, behaviour and energy needs," he said when asked what he felt led to the waiver from the guidelines of the cartel that controls international nuclear trade.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Neshant » 06 Sep 2008 19:26

> no need for India to test unless another country tests

considering most of the nukes & missiles are passed under the table, one wonders if the guy knows what he's talking about.

one failed h-bomb test does not make for a reliable deterrent.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Vipul » 06 Sep 2008 19:27


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby svinayak » 06 Sep 2008 19:29

http://news.google.com/nwshp?tab=wn&ned ... en&topic=b

General
NSG waiver more a US victory than Indian: Iyengar

MUMBAI: The waiver granted to India by the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to conduct nuclear commerce is more of a victory for the United States than an Indian win, according to former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.

“Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,” Mr Iyengar, a critic of the Indo-US nuclear deal, said.

“Of course, we have to wait and see what the suppliers like Australia and Canada will do regarding supplying fuels and the cost of that supply,” Mr Iyengar said.


During the entire process, “India was obliged to respect countries like Austria, New Zealand and Ireland as nuclear suppliers. What kind of suppliers are they God only knows,” he said sarcastically. - PTI


India Inc sees $40 bn foreign investment

Economic Times, India - 1 hour ago
NEW DELHI: As many as 400 Indian and foreign firms are seen as the beneficiaries of the far-reaching verdict in Vienna on Saturday where the 45-member ...

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby achy » 06 Sep 2008 19:36

Looks like Bush really told the austrian, irish, and those useless kiwis his famous one liner in his deadpan voice:

You are with us or you are them. (them being the new evil empire of orig-nazis, drunkards and flightless avians)

Btw, we must wait till the draft is public before starting the celebratory lungi dance.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 19:40

BJP is still making noises, that it is a sellout of India's sovereignty....

The Point is the Indo-US Nuclear Deal (Hyde+123) says that there will be consequences if India tests, just as there were consequences after India tested in 1998. Can BJP claim, that there were no sanctions after 1998?

The NSG Waiver says that there can be sanctions on India, if India tests, provided there is a consensus in NSG. This is an impossibility that there will be a consensus, except of course if India uses imported fuel for those tests.

In any case, it is possible that India will become an NSG Member in the next 2-3 years, and then the possibility of consensus is gone.

Even in case of USA, there is a long list of ways and means to avoid sanctions.

I don't see, how BJP can say that India has forfeited her right to test.
As far as Full Civilian Nuclear Cooperation is concerned, Reprocessing is allowed, some Enrichment is probably allowed.


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