India nuclear news and discussion

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rahul M » 08 Sep 2008 17:03

SSridhar wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
also, I'm curious to know about this:
Exactly my question! And also how is tarapore is running all these years without US support in spare parts?


Rahul M, read this as to how

thanks SSridhar. seems we did a thorough job. external assistance was limited to fuel supplies and the blue prints. nice !

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 17:04

PKI is pushing for full NWS.

I cannot see any of these arguments dieing down unless India is given full NWS status of they disband NPT/CTBT/etc. The disbanding has already started - in the US as GNEP and Aussies seem to be kicking some dirt with Japan hoping to join that party.

India needs to start a universal disarmament group (UDG).

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rahul M » 08 Sep 2008 17:13

Raja Ram wrote:Gentle readers
The closing lines of that Siddharth Vardarajan column is an indicator of what India needs to do from now on. It says and I quote.......................
...........................................
As predicted, the waiver is more "clean and conditional" rather than "clean and unconditional" that India would have preferred.

I suppose you are quoting vardarajan's article.

there's a correction in place now :
(An early version of this story carried a crucial typographical error in the last para where the author wrote: "The NSG's decision meets the criteria of 'clean and conditional' but it has done so by creating rights for both India and its critics within the NSG". The correct sentence is: "The NSG's decision meets the criteria of 'clean and unconditional' but it has done so by creating rights for both India and its critics within the NSG". This error has been corrected above).

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 17:24

NSG waiver: India issues demarche to China

The Chinese team finally veered around after US President George W Bush spoke to his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rahul M » 08 Sep 2008 17:27

so it's not an isolated case of MKN shooting off his mouth as somebody claimed on this forum.


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby vsudhir » 08 Sep 2008 17:30

Hindu gods spike Chinese dragon

MKB in Asia times. Fun read onlee. Apols if previously posted.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rahul M » 08 Sep 2008 17:36


deserves posting in full.
How the nuke wall was scaled in Vienna
- Moves that softened China, Austria & New Zealand
SHIV SHANKAR MENONK.P. NAYAR

Washington, Sept. 7: George W. Bush has been given credit for securing the exemption for India from the guidelines of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, but yesterday’s landmark consensus in Vienna would not have come about without meticulous planning in South Block.

Indian diplomacy picked out the dissenters in the NSG one by one and broke up a group of eight states which had come together soon after the confidence vote in Parliament in July, vowing to kill the Indo-US nuclear deal by holding it up in Vienna.

Well before the Bush administration took India’s case to the NSG, which controls the global trade in nuclear material and technology, the ministry of external affairs had identified New Zealand and Austria as the most difficult countries to win over to its side.

Hardeep Puri, secretary for economic relations in the ministry, returned from a reconnaissance mission in Wellington a week before the NSG met in Vienna on August 21 and strongly recommended a visit to India by New Zealand’s governor-general, Anand Satyanand.

An invitation for Satyanand had been pending since he met the minister for overseas Indian affairs, Vayalar Ravi, in New Delhi in January and attended the Pravasi Bharatiya Divas gathering of persons of Indian origin.

Satyanand’s arrival in Delhi on a “state” visit was deliberately timed for the first working day after the NSG meeting concluded in Vienna.

The governor-general could not have shaken the hands of his hosts on the lawns of Rashtrapati Bhavan tomorrow with any warmth or without a guilty conscience if New Zealand became the only country in the 45-member NSG that blocked a consensus on India.

Puri spent considerable time last month at “The Beehive”, the seat of the cabinet in Wellington, activated some old contacts from his days as an ambassador in Geneva and reported back that Satyanand’s role in New Zealand was much more than that of a titular governor-general.

Satyanand and his wife Susan were like the left and right hands of the famous Labour Prime Minister David Lange in his first, unsuccessful national poll campaign in 1975.

New Zealand’s current Prime Minister, Helen Clark, is a protege of Lange, and South Block accepted Puri’s assessment that India could use Satyanand as a chip in its moves to neutralise the Clark government’s uncompromising opposition to what India wanted from the NSG.

New Zealand does not allow the US navy’s nuclear-powered or nuclear-armed ships into its ports even though it is a member of the Australia, New Zealand, United States Security Treaty. It is a nuclear-free zone under a 1987 law.

This is the first time that the country has bent its strict approach on any nuclear issue, under carefully planned coercion by India.

The next country that India had to pick was Austria, a neutral state since World War II — like Switzerland — and another steadfast opponent of anything nuclear.

Austria is so anti-nuclear that it has a fully constructed nuclear power plant in Zwentendorf that is lying idle and it has frequent quarrels with its neighbours, the Czechs and the Slovaks, over their nuclear power units.

Fortunately, New Delhi had experience in dealing with Austrian opposition to India’s nuclear policy: some of the dramatis personae during Austria’s onslaught against the Indian nuclear tests in 1998 happened to be at the centre of that country’s foreign policy in the build-up to the NSG meetings.

Shortly after the Pokhran-II tests, Austria had sent its deputy foreign minister to New Delhi to give the BJP-led government a strong lecture.

The country had joined the European Union only three years earlier and since it was holding the EU presidency for the first time, the minister was keen to make a mark by throwing her weight around Raisina Hill.

The minister was tempered and given a reality check by Austria’s then ambassador in New Delhi, Herbert Traxl, and his deputy Peter Launsky-Tieffenthal, who know India very well.

Traxl is married to Kathak maestro Shovana Narayan and Launsky-Tieffenthal’s wife is well-known filmmaker Aradhana Seth, sister of author Vikram Seth and daughter of India’s first woman chief justice, Leila Seth. Last week, Launsky-Tieffenthal played a crucial role in negotiations between India and Austria and became the public face of Austrian nuclear policy during the NSG meeting.

Then there was China. Foreign secretary Shiv Shankar Menon used his insights into China, acquired since he went to school in Lhasa, to wear down Beijing into not standing up against a consensus in Vienna.

Important visits from abroad are normally announced only one or two days before they take place, partly for security reasons. But Menon left instructions before he went to Vienna in the third week of August that the foreign ministry should announce the visit of Chinese foreign minister Yang Jiechi to Calcutta and New Delhi well in advance.

The Chinese abhor unpleasantness in diplomatic exchanges and are fanatical about preserving face.

Since Yang’s visit from today had been announced in advance, the Chinese would not take an open stand against NSG exemption in Vienna and then pow-wow with Indians in New Delhi the following day. Nor could they cancel Yang’s visit except by risking much. Especially since Yang is opening China’s consulate in Calcutta on Monday, a happy occasion which the Chinese have been working on for several years.


all in all a very co-ordinated effort utilizing the right contacts at the right places.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rahul M » 08 Sep 2008 17:40


that creates some pressure on US congressmen to give the deal an 'aye' in an election year.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby harbans » 08 Sep 2008 17:40

Times On line UK says India in Nuclear Weapons Club

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 696891.ece


India celebrated its admission to the world’s nuclear club yesterday after a decision by the 45 nations that legally supply atomic fuel and technology to lift a decades-old ban on nuclear trade with the country.


However, the waiver also allows India to trade with all the other NSG members, even if the US deal fails to overcome its final obstacle – winning approval from the US Congress, ideally before the November presidential election.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 18:00


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 18:02


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 18:04

NSG waiver will help ISRO: Nair

NSG waiver will help ISRO: Nair
Press Trust of India
Sunday, September 07, 2008, (Chennai)
Calling the NSG waiver a big achievement for the country, ISRO Chairman G Madhavan Nair on Monday said it will help the Indian space department access latest space technologies from developed nation.

"It is a major achievement for India. We will have a better opportunity to interact with other developed nations on sharing certain space technologies," Nair told reporters on the sidelines of a function at SRM University here.

He said the signing of the 123 Agreement with the US will in a way help the ISRO work closely with the NASA.

On the "Chandrayaan-I" (moon) mission, Nair said all the technical parameters for the launch were progressing well and the launch "is expected by this October end".

He said the country's space department has world-class technologies to provide valuable inputs to tackle natural disasters.

"We have been monitoring the floods in Bihar. The National Remote Sensing Centre in Hyderabad has been receiving updates from a Canadian radar imaging satellite. We are providing satellite images of the inundated areas to the Army for rescue operations," he added.

Earlier, Nair was conferred a honorary Doctorate of Science by the SRM University for his outstanding contribution to the Indian Space Programme.

Last edited by NRao on 08 Sep 2008 18:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Avinash R » 08 Sep 2008 18:07

'India-specific agreement would prove passport for N-trade'
New Delhi, Sept 8 (UNI) External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee today said India has now to get ratification of the Indo-US nuclear deal and India-specific safeguard agreement which would prove to be the passport for the country's entry into nuclear trade.

''Now we have to wait for the ratification of the 123 agreement between India and the United States,'' he said adding that it has now to supply two other documents which the US Congress require for ratification of the India-specific safeguard agreement.

After ratification, certain other procedural aspects would be completed which would finally enable us to enter in bilateral agreement with other countries.

''As I mentioned earlier, approval for India-specific safeguard agreement is a passport to enter international nuclear trade through bilateral agreements with the supplier countries. Then we will actually enter the nuclear trade,'' Mr Mukherjee said.


Rs 100000cr carrot behind the waiver
New Delhi, Sept. 7: A sum of Rs 100,000 crore that is up for grabs in deals may have helped India bag the Nuclear Suppliers Group waiver.

New Delhi has drawn up plans under which the state-run Nuclear Power Corporation of India Ltd (NPCIL) and National Thermal Power Corporation Ltd (NTPC) are to set up a string of nuclear power plants — 15 by 2020 that will add 20,000MW to the current 3,300MW.

Global nuclear power plant manufacturers and domestic engineering giants are expected to harvest the bounty of the nuclear commerce the Indo-US deal will offer.

Areva SA and Alstom of France, General Electric of the US, Toshiba Corp’s Westinghouse Electric Co (based in the US), and Russia’s atomic energy agency Rosatom are among the global firms likely to get most of the contracts. Diplomats of these nations were in the forefront of lobbying for the deal at the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and the NSG.

The Centre might make it mandatory for nuclear reactor suppliers to get at least 30 per cent of their equipment from India, analysts said.

“The volume of business to be generated in nuclear power plant construction is huge since the cost of construction per MW of nuclear power is about Rs 7 crore and we are talking of adding 20,000MW by 2020,” said Arvind Mahajan, executive director of KPMG, a financial services firm.

Planning Commission officials said the Atomic Energy Act might be amended to allow Indian private-sector players – such as the Tatas, Anil Ambani’s Reliance Energy, GMR and Essar – to enter the sector and global players to take up small stakes in these plants.

Indian law now allows only the state-run NPCIL to set up and run nuclear power plants. Amendments lying with the cabinet permit any public sector company to enter the sector. At the time these were drafted, the Left was an ally of the government and would not have been keen on private participation. That has changed now, especially with the Samajwadi Party on board.

Still, analysts said, it may not be feasible to open the sector completely to private companies given the stringent international safeguards.

NPCIL plans to set up four power plants and has selected sites in Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and Bengal.

The NTPC, which is into thermal power generation, is also planning to diversify into nuclear energy and plans to add 2,000MW of nuclear energy by 2012.

Other than the NTPC, the state-owned Bharat Heavy Electriclas Ltd (Bhel) and several private players could benefit from the spillover effect of nuclear commerce. Bhel plans to spend Rs 1,500 crore over the next two years building plants to supply components for 1,600MW-capacity reactors, sources said.

Engineering firm Larsen & Toubro, construction houses Gammon and Hindustan Construction Company and power equipment company ABB are expected to benefit.

Kuljit Singh, energy analyst with Ernst and Young, however, said: “There is very little for Indian firms to benefit at this juncture since the sector is not open to private players. Most of the equipment for the power plants would be supplied by global leaders.”


NSG nod confirms India's impeccable track record: Russia
Moscow, Sep 8 (PTI) Russia today said the unanimous decision of the Nuclear Suppliers Group to grant a waiver to India confirms New Delhi's impeccable non-proliferation record and will be a "reliable guarantee" of the peaceful use of nuclear exports to it.
Moscow was one of the initiators of the NSG decision and actively lobbied for its adoption, the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

On the eve of the NSG's September 6 decision, National Security Advisor M K Narayanan had called up his Russian counterpart Nikolai Patrushev to request more hectic lobbying by Russia amid uncertainty over the waiver which prevailed till the last moment.

"We are confident that the exception for India confirms the impeccable track record of New Delhi in non-proliferation affairs and will be a reliable guarantee of the peaceful use of nuclear exports to India," the statement said.

Russia is already completing two VVER-1000 nuclear reactors at Kudankulam nuclear power plant in Tamil Nadu with the total capacity of 2000 MWe and in February last Moscow and New Delhi have inked an MoU for building four more such reactors. PTI


Japan backs nuclear deal
Monday, September 08, 2008
Tokyo: The Japanese government today defended its clearance of the Indo-US civil nuclear deal saying it had backed the deal to join an international consensus taking a "comprehensive perspective".

"Japan has decided to join the consensus from a comprehensive viewpoint," Chief Cabinet Secretary Nobutaka Machimura told newsmen today saying nuclear power would help India fight global warming.

"It would be a tool to prevent the emission of a huge volume of green house gas as this emerging country of a billion people continues its rapid growth," the Japanese top official said.

Machimura was quoted by the Kyodo news agency as saying that the safeguards agreement India has reached with the IAEA would ensure inspection of India's nuclear facilities and increase transparency of the country s nuclear activities.

The top Japanese official said despite his country s backing of the civil nuclear deal at the key NSG meet in Vienna, Tokyo still had concerns.

"We would continue to assert that India should join the comprehensive test ban treaty," Machimura said.


China welcomes NSG waiver for India
Beijing, Sept 8 (PTI) After its unexpected opposition in Vienna, China today welcomed the NSG granting a waiver to India to engage in nuclear commerce, but hoped this cooperation should be "conducive" to safeguarding the global nuclear non-proliferation efforts.

"China hopes that the decision will contribute to peaceful use of nuclear energy and international cooperation on nuclear non-proliferation," the Chinese Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

China had joined hold-out countries like Austria, New Zealand and Ireland which insisted on incorporating their concerns in the waiver but later relented after the US pushed hard to get the nod of the 45-member nuclear cartel.

"China believes that all countries are entitled to make peaceful use of nuclear energy, and conduct international cooperation in this regard," the statement said.

"Meanwhile, relevant cooperation should be conducive to safeguarding the integrity and efficacy of the international nuclear non-proliferation regime," the statement said.

Beijing's statement is being seen as a move to assuage New Delhi which has conveyed its unhappiness over the Chinese position at the NSG meet.

The tough negotiations at Vienna went down to the wire after China, which had sounded positive in the run-up to the NSG meeting, took a different line creating problems for a consensus on the waiver.

The statement came on a day when External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee held talks with his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi in New Delhi.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 18:11

India joins nuclear club, gets NSG waiver
NDTV Correspondent
Saturday, September 06, 2008, (New Delhi)
The 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) has finally given its nod to the Indo-US nuclear deal in Vienna on Saturday.

Ending three decades of isolation, India has joined the elite nuclear club. The NSG waiver has come through on the third day of the crucial talks in Vienna after push from the highest political level, the opposing countries gave their nod.

Sources say apart from External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee's statement, there is no reference to ban on tests or termination of deal if India tests.

US President George W Bush called Prime Minister Manmohan Singh soon after the waiver came through. Congress president Sonia Gandhi congratulated the PM.

Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon has told NDTV that the text permits full civil nuclear cooperation between India and the world.

Atomic Energy's chief negotiator in Vienna Ravi B Grover told NDTV that it's a clean waiver for India at the NSG, changes in the draft made have been mutually agreed upon.

"It's a clean waiver for India. Changes made in the draft is mutually agreed upon. We have no problem with the draft," said Ravi B Grover, Atomic Energy Negotiator.

And the prime minister hailed it as a landmark decision. In a statement after the waiver the PM said:

"This is a forward-looking and momentous decision. It marks the end of India's decades long isolation from the nuclear mainstream and of the technology denial regime. It is a recognition of India's impeccable non-proliferation credentials and its status as a state with advanced nuclear technology."

Welcoming the waiver External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said, "We welcome the decision and thank NSG countries and the final outcome fully meets our expectations. NSG waiver a unique development, it is in India's interest."

US Under Secretary, Arms and Control, John Roods has said that it is a historic moment for India and the decision will improve ties between India and the US.

Sources have told NDTV that the new draft, which got the go-ahead by the NSG, has no reference to testing, enrichment ban and preprocessing technology ban.

However, senior BJP leader Yashwant Sinha said, "We have given up our right to test forever."

Criticising the NSG waiver CPI leader D Raja said that India has become a subject of US strategy.

He said, "India has become a subject of US strategy and our opposition to N-deal will continue."

Speaking about the development, Congress leader Digvijay Singh has said that it is a historic day for India and the Prime Minister and team has achieved an impossible task.

External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee's statement on moratorium is a part of the N-waiver received by India.

As per reports, Pranab's statement on Friday over India's commitment for non-proliferation played a crucial role in changing Austria's mind. Austria said they were among the last to yield.

Meanwhile, China has stressed on balancing energy needs and non-proliferation.

So, what does this mean for India? Essentially, it's a victory for Indian diplomacy and it brings India into international nuclear club.

What it means for India

Access to nuclear technology without signing CTBT, NPT

India can buy nuclear reactors from US, Russia, France

India will get access to nuclear fuel from world market

India will have access to civilian space technology

India will get access to nuclear technology without having signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty or Non Proliferation Treaty. It opens up nuclear commerce for India and it can buy nuclear reactors from Russia, France and USA.

India will get access to nuclear fuel from the international market and also civilian space technology.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 08 Sep 2008 18:15

NSG waiver text in media not accurate, says MEA

Next aim for US: Making India 'partner' in NSG

After working 'tirelessly' for securing a waiver for India from the Nuclear Suppliers' Group for trade in the atomic energy, United States on Monday said its next aim is to make New Delhi a 'full partner' in the nuclear cartel.

"President Bush, Secretary of State and the entire administration had worked tirelessly to ensure that India reached the stage where it has today in the NSG," Assistant Secretary (Market Access and Compliance) in the US Department of Commerce David Bohigian said in New Delhi.


Bohigian said Bush and the Congress administration would continue to work to 'make India a full partner in this group which we think is crucial... from a strategic, political, economic and energy standpoint'.

He said the US administration would be working through the Congress and the Hyde Act to ensure $100 billion market for American companies.


"The next step for the US (administration) will be working through the Congress and the Hyde Act and make sure that business opportunities will enable the US firms to stay in what is estimated to be $100 billion market," the official said at a CII seminar.


He said atomic energy would play an important role for economic development of India.

"When you look at the energy map of 2020 and beyond, certainly nuclear has a key role to play in India's growth, which we welcome," Bohigian said.


According to industry body Assocham, about 40 companies, including Videocon , have already started talks with foreign firms to set up nuclear power plants envisaging a total investment of about Rs 2,00,000 crore in India.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2008 18:18

"Clean and conditional",appears to be the general consensus of the NSG waiver.If the news that OZ will not sell us fuel unless we sign the NPT,then good luck to them and also that this petulant snub by the inferiority-complex diseased kangaroos, should be an eyeopener to the promoters of the deal that we are in the "club" finally.Should our club "etiquette" not be in conformity with the rules written and unwriten of the club,we can just as easily be thrown out of our associate membership."Breaking nculear wind" is strictly forbidden from now on! Let us not forget that or take recourse to self-deception,no matter what our good spin-doctor says.

The implications will be immediate affecting our foreign and defence policies.The signs of the price we've had to pay will soon be visible.Will we be able to stand firm and independent and OK the Iran-Pak-India pipeline,sell Brahmos to Iran,Venezuela,Algeria,etc. who are supposedly in the list of countires approved by both India and Russia is a moot question.Similarly,the purchase of defence systems from the US will now accelerate,our defence minister is rushing to the Us to finalise deals before the elctions arrive.Initially,US companies will not be able to take part in the "uranium rush" that is India.The ownership details of the nuclear power companies that will win contracts will be very interesting.Look for large corporations like the Carlyle Group,Halliburton,etc. who may be hidden stakeholders in such deals through their holdings in the global defence and nuclear power industry.

The good spin-doctor and mendicant of snake-oil has also just had his lecture circuit fees going up considerably!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rahul M » 08 Sep 2008 18:20

pending regular inspections and adequate security, GoI should give permission to competent pvt enterprises to raise their own nuke plants. that would free them from the irregularity of the frid.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby CRamS » 08 Sep 2008 18:45

amit wrote:Rajiv Srinivasan on Rediff, posted without comment

This deal may well mark the tipping point that causes India to collapse: Without a nuclear deterrent, India is a sitting duck for Chinese blackmail including the proposed diversion of the Brahmaputra, for Pakistani-fomented insurrections, and Bangladeshi demographic invasion. India must be the very first large State in history that has consciously and voluntarily decided to dismantle itself.


He sure does not like the deal. He cites a lot of data arguing in favor of Solar, don't know how authentic it is. But this quote caught me eye


India is giving away its hard-won nuclear deterrent



I agree that the deterrent India has, if any, will be frozen in place in the absence of any testing, but how is India giving it away? Does he mean that 15-20 years down the road when others (China/TSP) have advanced their designs, India's will be frozen in place rendering it useless and hence tantamount to giving up its deterrent?

I think this deal will be cleverly used by Congress to cement its power for aeons to come. They can now exploit the guns Vs butter populist theme to the hilt. And when nationalist BJP talks about guns, they can dismiss them by saying 'we have the right to test' without having to actually do anything. In the past even pro-dealers here would have passionately dismissed the left's butter argument (why spend billions on military when millions are starving), but now the same leftists (Congress) will bolstered by many in the right who will say "jee, we have a deterrent and we have preserved the right to test", so now we can concentrate on butter.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 18:57

As much as I was against this deal (because it slipped from J-18 and nothing else), to think that Indian Scicom does not have alternatives up their sleeves is a bit too silly. Granted to provide for a full deterrence India, like anyone else, needs to test, however, as long as the current environment continues India really does not have to worry too much from a scientific PoV. The Indian predicament is a political one, not a technical one. Solve the politics and BD population creep, TSP jihdi creep adn Chicoms IOR creep will all be solved.

Indian problems - China/TSP/BD creep - are ALL politically created problems. Remove the politicians from the equation, the scicom and armed forces will very easily deal with the issues. Is there any doubt about that?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Sep 2008 19:15

The best forward strategy for India, is to exclude the US from nuclear and other military deals or to hug them in a tight embrace?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 08 Sep 2008 19:19

Enough is enough: India tells Chinese Foreign Minister

Enough is enough’ was the message for China when the Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi met Indian leadership on September 8.

The Chinese foreign Minister’s visit comes at a juncture when a new low has crept into the Sino-Indian relationship following Beijing’s negative attitude at the nuclear suppliers’ group meeting in Vienna. The waiver opens the doors for nuclear commerce with India, which was not allowed earlier.

While Jiechi met the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Monday for what was a businesslike conversation, sources say that Manmohan was candid in sharing his disappointment over the Chinese stand in Vienna.

But the tough talk reportedly happened during his meeting with the External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee. Insiders say it was conveyed to the Chinese, at the one-on-one meeting between the two that China’s conduct at the nuclear suppliers’ group meeting was not helpful, and was not in tune with the growing Sino-Indian relationship.

Last week, when India was faced with a crunch situation at the nuclear suppliers’ group meeting in Vienna, Beijing created hurdles, and when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh wanted to speak to the Chinese President Hu Jintao, he was not available for the call, which infuriated India. While India summoned the Chinese envoy to issue a demarche over the weekend, it was finally the US President George W. Bush who spoke to the Chinese President Hu Jintao which forced Beijing to back off.

Opinion was divided in the Government over how to hand over a terse message to the Chinese. Sources say an upset India nearly called off a call on by Jiechi, on Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, but eventually considerations of a visit by the Prime Minister to Beijing for the Asia Europe Summit Meeting on October 24 prevailed and it was decided to let him meet the Prime Minister.

However, an expected call on the UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi was not cleared.

At the meeting of the 45 member nuclear watchdog in Vienna, China had resorted to delaying tactics to stall the deal, and then absented itself from the final meeting after US helped in rallying around support for the deal, along with countries such as UK, France, Russia and NSG chair Germany.

What has irked New Delhi that this was despite Beijing’s assurance at the highest levels to both Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Congress President Sonia Gandhi that they will not come in the way of the waiver at the nuclear suppliers group, it came out against the deal.

“China’s true colours have been exposed again, despite best attempts to instill trust in the relationship their actions only vitiate the relationship,” remarked a senior South Block official.

Chinese Foreign Ministry had issued a statement on the NSG waiver which was not entirely positive, that relevant cooperation should be conducive to safeguarding the integrity and efficacy of the international nuclear non-proliferation regime,” .

Insiders say that while some of the European countries like Austria and Ireland had raised objections to the NSG waiver raising a principled stand because of domestic laws and strong stand on non proliferation, but in the case of China the resistance was purely on the political ground for opposing the deal for India.

Analysts believe China with its dubious record of nuclear proliferation to Pakistan and North Korea certainly could not preach lessons of non proliferation to India.

Despite public proclamations of a new warmth in the bilateral relationship, and a booming trade that is touching USD 25 billion the two neighbours have had an uneasy relationship. India has protested at almost 140 intrusions by the Chinese troops into India territory this year. Last month, in the middle sector the two countries almost reached a conflict situation and a subsequent flag meeting was equally stormy with the Chinese warning India that its action would have “dangerous consequences.

The two countries share the longest boundary dispute in the word, and the aggressive posture by Beijing has made matters worse. Earlier too China’s string of pearls strategy to encircle India and its all out efforts to sabotage efforts to expand the UN Security Council has not helped matters.

While India’s efforts to tame the dragon have not been helpful, it now needs to balance its China policy with a carrot and stick approach, while it should continue to engage China, but it should be firm in its dealings besides leveraging issues such as Tibet and Taiwan which it has kept on the back-burner.

It should also factor in its new strategic relationship with the US in its China policy, along with other like minded countries because often diplomatic niceties are construed as weakness which seems to be the big bane of India’s China policy.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Rangudu » 08 Sep 2008 19:22

US should get 2 reactors and no more. The insurance and liability complications will help ensure that US deals take a loooooong time to complete. Meanwhile Areva and Atomstroyexport should corner the market, with enough subsidiary business from everyone including Toshiba, Mitsubishi and big firms from Germany to UK. We need big firms in every key industrialized nation to have a stake in India's success. More importantly we need Indian firms exporting stuff as well.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Sep 2008 19:43

It turns out the biggest share holder in the US mortgage banks Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae is the Bank Of China. With US gov. buying out these banks the BoC is the prime beneficiary. This is probably what Bush promised Hu. It explains why the Chinese wilted in opposition.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 19:52

Rangudu wrote:US should get 2 reactors and no more. The insurance and liability complications will help ensure that US deals take a loooooong time to complete. Meanwhile Areva and Atomstroyexport should corner the market, with enough subsidiary business from everyone including Toshiba, Mitsubishi and big firms from Germany to UK. We need big firms in every key industrialized nation to have a stake in India's success. More importantly we need Indian firms exporting stuff as well.


That is the understanding - two reactors for the US. With a total of 8 to be imported, it seems RU/FR will share the remaining six.

However, the bigger benefits should come from India exports and use of imports in other fields.

Time India focused on infrastructure a LOT more than these big toys. No use building 8 world class reactors and not having enough structure to send the juice to all those who need it. No use getting people electricity only to note that there are not enough schools or roads to such schools, etc. Everything else has to fall into proper place to gain benefits of all this noise.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 08 Sep 2008 20:01

Mort Walker wrote:It turns out the biggest share holder in the US mortgage banks Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae is the Bank Of China. With US gov. buying out these banks the BoC is the prime beneficiary. This is probably what Bush promised Hu. It explains why the Chinese wilted in opposition.


Exactly my thought as i was driving to work and listening to NPR.

I say one more time, The end is not in sight yet for this mortgage crisis.

Bush Ithink said to uncle Hu, do you want Freddie Mac and Mae go down you way of opposing what I say at NSG?

The rest is Hustory

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 08 Sep 2008 20:08

It would be interesting to see, whether countries other than Russia and France do not insist on termination on nuclear testing clause and return of materials henceforth. There are several countries to which this may matter:

UK - If they do not insist on it, it could become a template for EU States.

Japan - Should Taro Aso become PM, it could be that he would not insist on it.

Germany - They could just use the French and UK Treaties as templates.

Canada and Australia would most probably insist, therefore it is important that agreements be signed with them, when the conditions in these countries are favorable to Indian requirements.

Canada and Australia could be to some extent be influenced by what UK signs with India.

So the sequence of signing accords can be very important.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 08 Sep 2008 20:37

BTW, Russia, in spite of the tensions created by the Georgian situation has pleged to follow the proper guidelines WRT nukes. Support the US effort.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 08 Sep 2008 21:57

RR is in big way into Nucke reactors

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby gandharva » 08 Sep 2008 22:17

I was warthing face the nation on CNN-IBN. Issue was Chinese betrayal on NSG waiver. I had never seen a lefty being bashed in such open manner. This used to be the case for BJP people during Ayodhya movement days.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Prem » 08 Sep 2008 22:34

Acharya wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:I think that to get benefit from NSG waiver and to firm up our stockpile etc, the opportunity for testing will be pushed back to 2025-2030.


Regional and geopolitical situation will change in 2013-2018 timeframe


As i said few months back , The NSG test will be a good way of finding out our real enemies . Now we now who are the string masters and how they think.

Folks , if ndia is still so weak in 2025-203o that it can be pushed into demands by outside powers then it deserve all the contempt. Post 2025 era , it will be and it should be INDIA demanding the dismantling of any rule, law, institution which even remotly hint any antagonistic viewpoint to Indian interests.We must have at least 400 % confidence in ourself.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Prem » 08 Sep 2008 22:45

gandharva wrote:I was warthing face the nation on CNN-IBN. Issue was Chinese betrayal on NSG waiver. I had never seen a lefty being bashed in such open manner. This used to be the case for BJP people during Ayodhya movement days.


Discrediting the Commie , lefties with this deal was open secret and part of the agenda of the strtaegic shift . Green and Red watermelon season will soon be over in India . :lol: Saffron colored mangos being identified with India will be the flavor of future. This new Color revolution is in offing. Left getting slapped publicly makes all the troubles of last few years worthwhile.
Satyamev Jayte.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby raj_singh » 08 Sep 2008 23:13

Raja Ram



Example when we let go of the opportunity of a permanent membership of the Security Council and argued the case for China.


In an otherwise reasonable post, the above quoted part is not correct. India was never really offered membership of Security council. If one does some more reading on the subject and find minutes/notes of some of the meetings (when the so called offer was made to India by US, and later on the Soviet Union PM talking to J Nehru), one would find this is a misconception.

Keeping the response very brief as the topic may not belong to this thread but since it has been said on this thread, so responding here.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby SaiK » 08 Sep 2008 23:13


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Katare » 08 Sep 2008 23:20

John Snow wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:It turns out the biggest share holder in the US mortgage banks Freddy Mac and Fannie Mae is the Bank Of China. With US gov. buying out these banks the BoC is the prime beneficiary. This is probably what Bush promised Hu. It explains why the Chinese wilted in opposition.


Exactly my thought as i was driving to work and listening to NPR.

I say one more time, The end is not in sight yet for this mortgage crisis.

Bush Ithink said to uncle Hu, do you want Freddie Mac and Mae go down you way of opposing what I say at NSG?

The rest is Hustory


Not correct, all thes shareholder's have lost almost all of their money today. Anyhow BoC is not stakeholder but one of the largest Bond holder of the bank. Buying of those agency was only option left for USA and it in no way was done to save few bucks for Unkil Hu. Hu would loose whatever he had to regardless of this bailout package.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2008 23:28

Cong(I) has sent a memo to their people in the media to declare open season on Commies.
catch them, cut their tails and turn them in to claim reward - like field rats. you get paid
Rs50/- for a bunch of ten tails.

thats why B-lists commie rats are out, the A-listers are hiding in deepest burrows with
ears pressed to the morse code from peking.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby Sanatanan » 08 Sep 2008 23:48

Sanjay M @ Page 6 wrote:
Can India still continue developing its Thorium Breeders, as part of the 3-Stage program?

Does this deal in any way derail that program?


renukb @ Page 11 wrote:With the NSG approval, what effect will it have on India's Thorium research? Will it be halted because u can now buy Uranium? I hope that's not the case...


Ever since the dawn of the first human settlements in the regions of subcontinental India that is now known as Kerala, people there have been living in harmony with and benefitting from nature's bounties, creating a wonderful and unique culture. In particular, the low level (but generally slightly higher than elsewhere) natural background radiation from the monazite sands which happens to host the major portion of Thorium mineral in India, may have a lot to do with this and so people of Kerala may not like to part with what they consider to be an integral and essential part of their natural surroundings. (Brilliant cultural developments have taken place in the rest of India also, under different sets of conditions, but that is not the subject of this post.)

At present Kerala is governed by a political party which is opposed to strategic alliance with the US. Also, a precedent would have been set by resorting to import of Natural Uranium on the specious plea that we do not have enough of it for our "projected" needs of electric power. Taking these aspects together, I foresee protests to begin soon that would considerably impede, if not altogether prevent, the Thorium utilisation plan.

If FBRs and Th Breeders of the 3rd Stage are to be in the "strategic" side, then, their success (measured in terms of the timeliness of project completion to meet the "projected" electricity demand) would depend upon how lax the implementation of the NSG "Waiver" is.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 08 Sep 2008 23:57

The Indian demarche to PRC went out in the weekend. Take a look at the time zone diffrence between Vienna and New Delhi. And back calculate at what time the demarche went out. Hint it was quite late on Friday night! And what that means to PRC H&D. Where is their face now? Why did they let this happen?

Indi truly lets others take credit.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 09 Sep 2008 00:03

Sanjay M @ Page 6 wrote:
Can India still continue developing its Thorium Breeders, as part of the 3-Stage program?

Does this deal in any way derail that program?


renukb @ Page 11 wrote:With the NSG approval, what effect will it have on India's Thorium research? Will it be halted because u can now buy Uranium? I hope that's not the case...


A breakthrough, says Kakodkar

While the domestic nuclear power programme would continue, the country needed a larger programme to meet its electricity needs and the waiver would certainly help.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Postby namit k » 09 Sep 2008 00:06

i had never seen so many replies in a single thread in just 3 days :eek:
its like atom bomb :wink:


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