India nuclear news and discussion

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 21 Mar 2009 19:07


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 22 Mar 2009 17:02


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 22 Mar 2009 17:03


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 22 Mar 2009 23:54


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby derkonig » 23 Mar 2009 23:00

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/mar/23/india-hints-at-signing-ctbt.htm
MMS & Rajmata want to emasculate whatever little is left in India before their regime ends.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Mar 2009 23:16




There was a report about this in the Indo-US discussions thread. One of our Forum members had met here the week before the announcement.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby negi » 23 Mar 2009 23:50

Quoting from above.
In Ms Tauscher’s view, however, India’s record on proliferation is not much better. Speaking in Congress during the ‘123’ debate last September, she described India as a “country with a dismal record of non-proliferation” which had been “denied access to the market for three decades and for good reason.”

Resident SME's how adversely does Ms Tusher's appointment affect India's nuclear ambitions ? to re-phrase does her appointment mean anything at all . I assume that US is obliged to keep its end of the bargain and Tush..er and likes can yap from the sidelines.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Ananth » 24 Mar 2009 00:27

negi wrote:Quoting from above.
In Ms Tauscher’s view, however, India’s record on proliferation is not much better. Speaking in Congress during the ‘123’ debate last September, she described India as a “country with a dismal record of non-proliferation” which had been “denied access to the market for three decades and for good reason.”

Resident SME's how adversely does Ms Tusher's appointment affect India's nuclear ambitions ? to re-phrase does her appointment mean anything at all . I assume that US is obliged to keep its end of the bargain and Tush..er and likes can yap from the sidelines.


Well if Miss Tausher wants to hamstrung US Nuclear industry she is most welcome to do so. The NPAs are sending the message that they have some people itching to revert back to glory fatwa sermoning days of 90s. They are very much welcome to cut their own legs. If the US establishment itself starts to believe their nonsense and acts on it then we will have to simply drill the message into their heads that India has lack of confidence in the capability of their nuke sector to out lobby their oil sector and honor their commitments. Compounding the matter is that the credibility of the US establishment is no where near what it used to be. The transaction costs are simply making US proposals unreasonable.

If NPAs insist on firing Einhorn, Nye, Tauscher et. al missiles at us, we will be compelled to retaliate with Praful Bidwai, Suzanne Arundhati and Kamal Mitra Chenoy missiles. Sorry we got no other options.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 24 Mar 2009 02:29


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 24 Mar 2009 02:40


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby vsudhir » 24 Mar 2009 04:21

x-post

Lift restriction on dual use technology trade: India to US

Aha. Now we're talking or what?

India on Monday pressed the new Barack Obama Administration to lift the "unnecessary" restrictions on international trade with India on dual use items and technology.

Addressing a meeting at the prestigious Brookings Institute, a Washington-based think-tank, Prime Minister's Special Envoy on Climate Change Shyam Saran also hoped that America would scrap the so-called entity list, which prohibits sale of US technology to a number of Indian companies.

Saran, who played an influential role in the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal in various capacities, said: "With the opening up of nuclear commerce with India, there is a need now to review and remove these unnecessary restrictions on international trade with dual use item and technology."


Thoughtful and articulate argument. Read it all.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby negi » 24 Mar 2009 08:46


Gurudev so early ? What happened to objection to the 'insurance coverage in the wake of a nuclear accident' which the builder is supposed to guarantee ? Is Hitachi/Japan footing the bill ?
or MMS and co have settled this behind the scenes onlee ?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Ardeshir » 24 Mar 2009 09:46

India hints at signing CTBT

March 23, 2009 22:46 IST
India will most likely sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty--a top non-proliferation priority of the Obama [Images] Administration--if the world moves "categorically towards nuclear disarmament in a credible time-frame," India's point man for nuclear issues has indicated.

Shyam Saran, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's [Images] Special Envoy for Nuclear Issues and Climate Change, headlining a major conference organized by The Brookings Institution titled, The US-India Nuclear Agreement: Expectations and Consequences, acknowledged that the CTBT is "an issue that has been seen as potentially, a contentious one in our relations with the new US Administration," and one that "President Obama has made clear that he will seek Senate ratification of, which the US has signed, and India has not".

"He has also promised to launch a 'diplomatic effort to bring on board other states whose ratifications are required for the treaty to enter into force,'" Saran noted, quoting Obama's own words on his commitment to the CTBT, which he articulated in his letter of September 23, 2008 to Prime Minister Singh on the day of the latter's arrival in the US to meet with then President George W Bush.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby renukb » 24 Mar 2009 09:47

India hints at signing CTBT


STUPIDITY.... Congress and UPA can not serve Indian interests at all... They must be routed in the coming elections.... I have been saying this.... UPA is brought over by the USA $$$$$ power.... They are becoming US's new munna now.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby negi » 24 Mar 2009 09:50

Perhaps we are over-reacting another story from TOI fwiw.

India, US move beyond nuclear row, for now

Shyam Saran, India's special envoy on nuclear issues, told the same forum that the success pushing through the nuclear deal with the United States gave New Delhi "a welcome sense of vindication."

But he issued a pre-emptive warning to Obama that India would not accept the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (CTBT). In his campaign, Obama said he would push the US Senate to ratify it and encourage other nations to do likewise.

The CTBT would ban all nuclear explosions for any purpose. It cannot come into effect as nuclear powers such as the United States and China have not ratified it or, in the case of India and Pakistan, even signed it.

Saran said India opposed the CTBT because it "was not explicitly linked to the goal of nuclear disarmament."

"For India, this was crucial since it was not acceptable to legitimize, in any way, a permanent division between nuclear weapons states and non-nuclear weapons states," he said.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Ardeshir » 24 Mar 2009 10:04

It could be a DDM strike for all we know.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby renukb » 24 Mar 2009 10:06




If true the cat is out.... India has compromised on its national security with the USA, while getting a nuclear deal... India should understand that,


"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have either one."
- Benjamin Franklin


Indians should throw the UPA and Congress to dust bin in the coming elections.
Last edited by renukb on 24 Mar 2009 11:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Mar 2009 10:43

smells like another sellout proposed to get a pat on back from Massa and obey
hidden instructions.

the internal defence and scientific community backed by patriotic elements in media
have to take up cudgels to PREVENT THIS NEW SELLOUT.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby amit » 24 Mar 2009 11:20

renukb wrote:



If true the cat is out.... India has compromised on its national security with the USA, while getting a nuclear deal... India should understand that,


"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have either one."
- Benjamin Franklin


Indians should throw the UPA and Congress to dust bin in the coming elections.


Boss instead of ranting against the UPA and Congress wouldn't it be better to read what exactly Saran said and then come to a conclusion?

India will most likely sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty--a top non-proliferation priority of the Obama Administration--if the world moves "categorically towards nuclear disarmament in a credible time-frame," India's point man for nuclear issues has indicated.


This has been India's stated position for a long time and the NDA also supports this position. Remember, India's stated goal is universal disarmament.

Can you explain how India's position will alter from the one stated by Saran in case the "UPA and Congress are consigned to the dust bin in the coming elections"?

Sorry to say but going by some of the posts here I'm reminded of the fable about the shepard boy who cried wolf once too often...
Last edited by amit on 24 Mar 2009 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby amit » 24 Mar 2009 11:23

More from the Rediff story:

Saran, an erstwhile Foreign Secretary pointed out that "India has been a consistent votary of a CTBT but did not sign the CTBT as it eventually emerged because it was not explicitly linked to the goal of nuclear disarmament. For India, this was crucial since it was not acceptable to legitimize, in any way, a permanent division between nuclear weapon states and non-nuclear weapon states."

He said that the "other reason was the manner in which the CTBT was pushed through, bypassing the Conference on Disarmament, which works by consensus, and bringing the issue before the UN General Assembly. This was done to over-ride Indian objections and was justifiably seen in India as a not too subtle attempt to foreclose India's options."

"Additionally," Saran noted, "India was included in a category of states whose signature and ratification was deemed necessary in order for the Treaty to come into force, again an unusual provision, directed at putting international pressure on India to join a Treaty whose provisions it did not agree with."

Thus, he explained that "it was against this background that India did not sign the CTBT," but said however, that since the Pokhran tests in May 1998, "India has observed a unilateral and voluntary moratorium and is committed to its continuance."

"This is spelt out in the Indo-US Joint Statement of 2005," he added. Consequently, Saran said, "It is also our conviction that if the world moves categorically towards nuclear disarmament in a credible time-frame, then Indo-US differences over the CTBT would probably recede into the background."


I get a feeling if Saran had said India will NEVER sign CTBT and will start exploding giga million ton bums, he'd still be labeled a sell out. :)

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby renukb » 24 Mar 2009 11:43

amit wrote:Boss instead of ranting against the UPA and Congress wouldn't it be better to read what exactly Saran said and then come to a conclusion?

India will most likely sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty--a top non-proliferation priority of the Obama Administration--if the world moves "categorically towards nuclear disarmament in a credible time-frame," India's point man for nuclear issues has indicated.


This has been India's stated position for a long time and the NDA also supports this position. Remember, India's stated goal is universal disarmament.

Can you explain how India's position will alter from the one stated by Saran in case the "UPA and Congress are consigned to the dust bin in the coming elections"?

Sorry to say but going by some of the posts here I'm reminded of the fable about the shepard boy who cried wolf once too often...


Americans deceived Russians with the START treaty, and what makes India think that, the world (especially USA/UK) will move towards "nuclear disarmament in a credible time-frame" ?

The more bums India posesses is better for India. The west, once they have decades of advancement with conventional warfare, might even OK the total nuclear dis-armament, because they know they can beat any nation with conventional warfare only and also that they still retain the technology to create nook bums when needed.

Whether it is a UPA policy or NDA supports it, it it a useless topic and irrelevant to todays world. So even if the west (USA/UK) agrees to "move towards nuclear disarmament in a credible time-frame", India should not accept it, as it is suicidal for us. NO NPT and No CTBT for India. Lets us give a look at it, when and provided India achieves conventional warfare superiority over the the west and the rest. Let us not even talk about nuclear disarmament. Its an useless topic for Indians.
Last edited by renukb on 24 Mar 2009 11:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Nihat » 24 Mar 2009 11:48

If we had to sign the CTBT , we would have done so a long long time back when the MMS regime started cosying up to the US.

The fact that we put up such a fight to get through IAEA and NSG and yet not sign the NPT and CTBT should be an indicator that we'll not do so in the near future either.

Such statements have to be sent out though to create an image for the world that India is not signing only for the self defence reasons and not to show aggression.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby renukb » 24 Mar 2009 11:55

Nihat wrote:If we had to sign the CTBT , we would have done so a long long time back when the MMS regime started cosying up to the US.

Everything may not have been made public. We don't know under what conditions USA agreed for a nuke deal. There could be hidden things, to be implemented later on.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby amit » 24 Mar 2009 12:11

renukb wrote:Everything may not have been made public. We don't know under what conditions USA agreed for a nuke deal. There could be hidden things, to be implemented later on.


Boss if things are hidden how can you guess them?

While we're at a guessing game, let me guess, the hidden thing in the Nooklear deal is that the US will give us blueprints of its latest batch of nuclear bombs (I'm no expert so can't say what their names/numbers are).

Now how do we decide who's guess of the hidden things, to be implemented later on is better? Yours or mine?

As regards what Saran is saying, its similar to me making a statement like this:

I will give $100,000 for the study of the mating habits of Australian ant-eaters IF I win $1million in a lottery... :)


Jokes apart why don't you understand the context of the statement by Saran. Here's an Indian diplomat taking part at a conference at Brookings on the US-India deal. He needs to make a statement on CTBT and so he uses standard diplomatic language to state India's position without giving any commitments.

Will do this if such and such happens is standard diplomatic jargon.

Did you expect Saran to stand up and say India will NEVER sign the CTBT in front of an audience at Brookings even if that's India's actual decision?

Please get real.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby renukb » 24 Mar 2009 12:28

Amit, Read my previous post and you will know what are my conditions to sign NPT / CTBT. NPT / CTBT are irrelevant to todays world.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby amit » 24 Mar 2009 14:53

renukb wrote:Amit, Read my previous post and you will know what are my conditions to sign NPT / CTBT. NPT / CTBT are irrelevant to todays world.


Renukb,

I've read the conditions you've put forth. They are good and solid conditions undoubtedly.

However, in the real world we deal with what we have and not what we want or even feel is right. And India is not yet in a position where it can dictate terms for NPT/CTBT and all manner of shitty acronyms.

In such a situation I think the best course is to clearly state India's Red Lines and then make conciliatory statements saying we'll do this, if this is or that is done. Do note Saran saying something doesn't make it either the last word, neither does it commit India to something. He's just a pointman, the public face espousing the collective thinking of those who make policy. He's not the policymaker.

Just to clear up something, it's not that I think the US wouldn't harm India's interests if it got a chance. Far from it, Indian interlocutors need to constantly be on guard.

However, what I do object to is the fact that the integrity, patriotism and above all the intelligence of folks like Saran, Kakodkar and a host of others - including the political leadership - is freely questioned by folks sitting in front of their computer screens all across the world.

These are the guys who make a living out of batting for India's interests and these are the guys who are on a daily basis formulating long-term policy based on highly classified information.

Doesn't it strike you as very odd that India is always on the verge of being sold down the river by these folks and hasn't yet been betrayed? God knows they got plenty of time and opportunity to betray the motherland.

Of course I'm not taking into account all the things that are hidden in the US-India deal which some folks seem to be privy to...

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Sanku » 24 Mar 2009 15:23

amit wrote:Doesn't it strike you as very odd that India is always on the verge of being sold down the river by these folks and hasn't yet been betrayed? God knows they got plenty of time and opportunity to betray the motherland.


Who says it hasn't been betrayed? What other portent omens signs will betrayal need? Perhaps cats falling from the sky? Or a green flag over red fort?

Even then maybe some one would be saying that looking at things from the right perspective it is not a betrayal yet.

:roll: :roll:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby amit » 24 Mar 2009 15:28

Thank you for your comments Sanku ji.

They are very illuminating.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Sanku » 24 Mar 2009 15:43

amit wrote:Thank you for your comments Sanku ji.

They are very illuminating.


Thank you Amitji -- I am sure light helps folks in seeing things better.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Mar 2009 18:16

That article reflects Indian position held for years now. We ALL disarm and we will sign CTBT (and pretty much anything else).

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby renukb » 24 Mar 2009 21:03

Amit, If you say my conditions are solid, I just have to say this... We Indians need not be nice with the Unkle... Be blunt in getting what you want, and say it without mincing words. No committment on things we don't have control over. I'm sure Unkle will respect you for that.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby vadivelu » 24 Mar 2009 21:39

India should sign the CTBT and actively be part of NPT.

India is the regional power and these measures ensure it is part of the mainstream global community.

Uranium from Australia, scramble to improve its infrastructure and a general upliftment of Indian middle class.

If you oppose these, you are a traitor to the Indian cause. Move to Pakistan.

Enough of the tired old Russian/non-aligned nexus. It has failed India for 60 years. A radical new approach beckons.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby abhischekcc » 24 Mar 2009 22:25

While I do not believe anything this government says (and was one of the first people to call the hoax of the deal), I think that the present 'controversy' over saran's remarks is unnecessary. he has articulated India's long standing position - that the world is better off without nukes than with it, and that India would participate in any universal, verifiable disarmament program.

BTW, where are the Yankee Bunnies these days? Never heard a squeak out of them since the hoax was called. :mrgreen:

I guess reality is too hard to bear - no logical answer can be given.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby p_saggu » 24 Mar 2009 22:37

vadivelu wrote:India should sign the CTBT and actively be part of NPT.


Exactly how much do you know about these two treaties, and the history of India's interaction with the major powers when these two treaties were being formulated? :evil:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Anujan » 24 Mar 2009 22:41

vadivelu wrote:India should sign the CTBT and actively be part of NPT.
India is the regional power and these measures ensure it is part of the mainstream global community.

By recommending we sign the NPT, are you telling me that Gandhi is a charlatan ? :mrgreen:

What do you mean by "mainstream global community". Your assumption is that somehow the "mainstream global community" either has the moral and ethical high ground. Let us examine it:

What is the moral and ethical basis of NPT ? For example:

Article 9 of NPT says "A nuclear-weapon State is one which has manufactured and exploded a nuclear weapon or other nuclear explosive device prior to January 1, 1967."


What is the moral and ethical basis of 1967 ? why not 1975 or 1900 for that matter ? oh, I have an idea ! why not 2050 ? we will then have NoKo, Pakistan, Israel, Libya, Iran, Saudis, South Africa and the pirates off of Somalia also in the mix.

The Preamble says "elimination from national arsenals of nuclear weapons and the means of their delivery pursuant to a Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control"

Article 6 of NPT says "Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament".


So, I have waited for 40 years and am yet to see an "early date" for nuclear disarmament.

So it must be the case, that NPT is a treaty which recognizes realpolitik, power, discriminatory rules between nuclear haves and have nots and the only reason why India should consider signing is for the payoffs.

Last I saw, we are doing just fine without signing the NPT. We will have our cake and eat it too. What is wrong in gaming a system that is morally and ethically bankrupt ?

In fact, as Gandhi put it, it is our duty to not adhere to a immoral and unethical treaty. There you go.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby p_saggu » 24 Mar 2009 22:46

You know, India is pissing outside the tent every time it reminds everyone about the goal of universal disarmament.
I think amongst the several approaches that this country has adopted, at least one aims at shaming the world powers into including India just to preserve echendee of everyone else.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby negi » 25 Mar 2009 01:01

abhischekcc wrote:While I do not believe anything this government says (and was one of the first people to call the hoax of the deal)
Brother would you please care to enlighten us mortals ? our differences with the GOI aside what is it regarding the deal which is troubling you ?

BTW, where are the Yankee Bunnies these days? Never heard a squeak out of them since the hoax was called. :mrgreen:

What hoax ?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2009 01:26

Interesting that the US with its Hyde Act, the 123 agreement with it signing statements and all the arsenal of bilateral pledges is not satisfied with them. It wants India to sign the CTBT no matter. So India does have an upperhand vis a vis testing despite all those polemics. Hence the pressure to sign up so that its a treaty violation if it happens.

Shyam Saran is right in reminding the US of the conditions and the timetable that India finds acceptable.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby shyamd » 25 Mar 2009 01:36

ramana wrote:Interesting that the US with its Hyde Act, the 123 agreement with it signing statements and all the arsenal of bilateral pledges is not satisfied with them. It wants India to sign the CTBT no matter. So India does have an upperhand vis a vis testing despite all those polemics. Hence the pressure to sign up so that its a treaty violation if it happens.

Shyam Saran is right in reminding the US of the conditions and the timetable that India finds acceptable.

Obama is not happy with providing UAE with nuclear plants (He's having second thoughts). His long term view is to start an international dialogue on removing nuclear weapons from the world according to one analyst.


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