India nuclear news and discussion

sanjaykumar
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 07 Jun 2009 22:43

2050? I don't think this news item even merits any serious derision.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 07 Jun 2009 22:51


Sanatanan
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Sanatanan » 08 Jun 2009 22:08



India's policy should be to maximise Indian content in every nuclear power project set up in India.

It is my contention that the nuclear deal and the NSG approval which are primarily intended to facilitate import into India of reactor systems and components ("need fuel" is just a diversionary tactic on the part of the UPA government), will go against the sentiments -- that Indian industries should concentrate on indigenous manufacture rather than looking for tie-ups with foreigners to set up nuclear power plants -- expressed by Dr Kakodkar in the news item quoted above.

Import of primary or secondary or tertiary items (be it from US, or Russia or France or Germany or from any other developed country) is the least resistance path for making available components and systems that are required for a nuclear power project. As such this route will always be justified and resorted to by the project managers on the basis of concocted "project schedules". On the other hand, we know that schedules are often manipulated. Note for example the extensive delays in Kudankulam where completion, even for the first Unit, is getting postponed almost once in six months, whereas the original justification for the two-reactor project -- put forth, if I remember correctly, some time in the late1980s, even before disintegration of the USSR took place -- was "we need electricity now".

I am convinced that the greatest quantum of advancement in manufacturing technology in India was achieved by DAE and a handful of Indian industries when the no-sales-to-India regime was being enforced albeit porously.

If Dr Kakodkar felt strongly about the real and long-term benefits that would accrue from indigenous manufacture of nuclear components, he should have opposed the nuclear deal right from July 18, 2005 (or even earlier, if indeed, he did have an prescient inkling of what was to come).

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Jun 2009 23:20

Sanatanan,

Is there a foreign company that can build anything for the three stage reactor set? Is there an Indian company that can do that?

What K seems to be talking about is Indian companies making hardware for foreign company products.

I think there are two "tracks": the foreign track - consisting of every vendor on this earth and the local track - the three stage one. The problem -as I see it - is still the good old recycling, which was kicked down the road. What to do with the waste that is generated from these outside reactors. They have not solved that issue as yet - I think.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2009 17:06

Mulayam moans and groans about his monumental mistake...in supporting the UPA over the Nuclear deal for which he has been paid "brinjals"! Dear Mulayamji,please remember in future,"Marry in haste,repent at leisure".

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national ... ulayam-913

N-deal support to Cong a mistake: MulayamJune 9th, 2009
By Our Correspondent NEW DELHI

June 8: Samajwadi Party chief Mulayam Singh Yadav’s anguish came to the fore as he termed supporting the Congress on the Indo-US nuclear deal in 2008 a mistake.

“It was our mistake to support you (Congress) on the Indo-US nuclear deal in 2008,” SP chief Mulayam Singh Yadav said in Lok Sabha on Monday. He was participating in the debate on the motion of thanks to the President’s address to the joint session of Parliament.

Charging the Congress-led UPA government of doing nothing to improve the electricity shortage across the country, the SP leader said his party had to pay a heavy price for saving the previous UPA government in 2008 during the trust vote after the Left parties withdrew support on the Indo-US nuclear deal.

“We saved your government and suffered losses in return. People of UP blamed us for supporting you. Consequently, while our tally in Lok Sabha came down from 39 MPs in 2004 to 23 at present, you were able to increase numbers from 145 MPs in 2004 to 206 this time,” said an angry Mulayam Singh Yadav pointing a finger at the Leader of the House and finance minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Political watchers said the SP chief’s pain stems from the fact that despite emerging as the largest party in UP with 23 MPs and extending unconditional support to the UPA, it is not part of the government.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Rupesh » 09 Jun 2009 22:41

India has promised US firms share in its N-market: US official

Washington, June 09: The Indo-US civilian nuclear deal would benefit the American businesses as India as promised US companies a share its nuclear market, said Ellen Tauscher, nominated as the Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security.

"India has promised US companies a share of its nuclear market, and, if confirmed, I will support USG efforts to ensure US companies are able to participate in it," Tauscher told US Senators in a written statement at her confirmation hearing before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


"On September 10, 2008 the Indian government provided the United States with a strong Letter of Intent, stating its intention to purchase reactors with at least 10,000 MWe worth of new power generation capacity from US firms," she said.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Sanatanan » 10 Jun 2009 00:35

NRao wrote:

Is there a foreign company that can build anything for the three stage reactor set? Is there an Indian company that can do that?

I am not sure I completely understand the import (pun not intended) of this question. Nevertheless I will try to respond as best as I can.

Nuclear power plants employ a wide variety of technologies and hence it would be hard to find a single manufacturer who can make everything. (An exception could probably be a special purpose manufacturing shop said to have been set up in the USSR, about which I have only heard of. It seems they had the requisite equipment and skills needed to manufacture all the components required for their npps, from a small dowel pin to a large turbo generator). It would be perhaps possible for a manufacturer to fabricate, machine and supply a Calandria of a PHWR (1st Stage) as well as the main reactor vessel for a FBR (2nd Stage); but to expect the same agency, additionally, to produce Heavy Water (Stage 1) and also High purity Sodium coolant for the FBR (Stage 2) may be a bit far fetched. What we do have are "architect-engineers" who are capable doing a large portion of the detailed engineering design as well as manufacture and supply of many of the components while subcontracting the others. Plus the required coordination and integration of all the inputs. There are of course well known foreign architect-engineers; erstwhile Framatom + EDF might be one example. NPCIL + DAE might be a good Indian example. In India, there are a few big companies who can manufacture and supply some of the components / equipment for 1st Stage as well as 2nd Stage npps. There may also be some companies who specialise on the supply aspect, not manufacturing anything themselves. Some might just act as import agents.

Of course, even foreign architect-engineers may import some of the components - for example I am sure Canada imports several components for its CANDU reactors from the US. Likewise US perhaps imported Canadian Heavy Water for their bomb project. The point I was trying to make is that, in developped countries, manufacture and supply of high-technology items amongst themselves takes place on commercial terms without political interference and threat of stoppage or intrusive inspection requirements or rising proliferation issues. The same is not the case when it comes to India. India can expect to be treated as an equal only when it attains technological freedom, which to me means that it does not have to depend on imports for critical technologies. While a fair bit has so far been achieved, India still has some way to go on this path. At this stage, allowing imported reactors into India and facilitating easy import of components and equipment will only help to divert attention and resources (financial, infrastructural, human) from indigenisation efforts and weaken the same.

The 3rd stage of India's program might comprise of Th232-U233 FBRs, AHWRs and Accelerator Driven Systems (ADS). I feel, at the moment, all of these are in a conceptual stage with little or no detailed engineering designs completed. Manufacture-wise, I would expect the FBRs to be similar to the U238-Pu FBRs (of the 2nd Stage), the prototype of which is under construction now. AHWR is said to use much of the technology learnt in PHWRs. So one may expect that when the time comes, India will be able to harness indigenous technologies developed in the 2nd Stage. I am not aware of the technological requirements for ADS based systems.


What K seems to be talking about is Indian companies making hardware for foreign company products.

Well and good, if this indeed happens, but without taking away any of the resources (shop-floor time, skilled man-power, funds etc, all of which are in limited supply) from that required for the India-made npps.

I think there are two "tracks": the foreign track - consisting of every vendor on this earth and the local track - the three stage one. The problem -as I see it - is still the good old recycling, which was kicked down the road. What to do with the waste that is generated from these outside reactors. They have not solved that issue as yet - I think.

I am afraid that the two-track approach will result in diversion of precious resource from the more difficult indigenous track. Invariably the import track will hog all the attention and mentoring.

Regarding disposal of radioactive residues from reprocessed fuel, it is my steadfast belief that incineration (using ADS) would be the ultimate winner - verification and burial is not likely to get popular acceptance. Even in this regard, according to me, India should concentrate, in the short-term, on the incineration aspect, instead of over ambitiously trying to club the energy amplification aspect with the incineration part. After incineration is successfully demonstrated, one can subsequently try to reduce costs through addition of energy amplification. In the short-term, the higher costs of this approach may still be justifiable, when compared to the "no-go" situation with vitrification and burial.

India has demonstrated ability to design, construct and operate reprocessing plants. Perhaps what it may be short of is the ability to manufacture some of the equipment and instruments that need to operate failure-free for long periods of time in a highly radioactive environment. According to me, it is in these areas that much concentrated indigenisation effort might need to be put in; not beseech the US to allow India to import reprocessing technology, systems and equipment.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Jun 2009 00:54

So when is the CIRRUS replacement reactor going to be ordered?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby NRao » 10 Jun 2009 02:31

Thx S. I have questions, but will get to it l8r. However:

I am afraid that the two-track approach will result in diversion of precious resource from the more difficult indigenous track. Invariably the import track will hog all the attention and mentoring.


I think this is the crux of the matter in the two articles related to K.

My read is that this diversion will not occur. IF it does it will be a purely political move and certainly not one supported by the DAE - IMHO.

The reason I feel that the diversion will not occur is that, no matter what, for India, the three stage is the salvation. IF it fails it has to fail technically, not economically or politically.

And, technically India (from what I know and I am NOT a techie in this matter) is more than self sufficient.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby NRao » 10 Jun 2009 02:36

On reprocessing they made no deal. They at best built a castle in the air. This is a very thorny issue that needs to be visited ASAP and I do not think India will like the out come of it.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Anujan » 10 Jun 2009 03:50

NRao wrote:On reprocessing they made no deal. They at best built a castle in the air. This is a very thorny issue that needs to be visited ASAP and I do not think India will like the out come of it.


Depends on the bear trap that our babus make over chai-biskoot. There is nothing against reprocessing in NSG. Unkil's congress on the other hand, have passed laws against assisting in reprocessing technologies. Used properly, this is a stick to source our reactors and fuel from elsewhere.

Can have many tarapore radio active pools all over the country.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 10 Jun 2009 03:54

ramana wrote:So when is the CIRRUS replacement reactor going to be ordered?


Rather than when...... will there be a replacement for CIRUS?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Anujan » 10 Jun 2009 04:22

Gerard wrote:Rather than when, will there be a replacement for CIRUS?


Just as a background, here is an (written by the great granddaddy of all NPAs) article from 2005: CIRUS Reactor's Role in A US-India nuclear agreement

As I understand it, Dhruva is a (completely indigenous) copy of the CIRUS and India's weapon stockpile of Plutonium is from CIRUS and Dhruva (various estimates put it at around 100 weapons in 2004). The NPA demand is that *all* plutonium produced in CIRUS (or an equivalent amount produced from Dhruva) should be set aside and brought into safeguards. So shutting down CIRUS seems to be an olive branch from us.

As far as I am aware no replacement for CIRUS is planned. Dhruva is classified as a military use facility. The Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor was supposed to commence operations in 2010 (the same year CIRUS is supposed to shut down) and some estimates say that it can produce 2x-3x amount of plutonium as Dhruva (which is 3x the size of CIRUS). However what is not know is if the plutonium produced in PFBR is suitable for weapons or if India has modified its reprocessing plants to handle the fuel from PFBR.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby NRao » 10 Jun 2009 04:27

Depends on the bear trap that our babus make over chai-biskoot. There is nothing against reprocessing in NSG. Unkil's congress on the other hand, have passed laws against assisting in reprocessing technologies. Used properly, this is a stick to source our reactors and fuel from elsewhere.


Well, IF I understand this properly (????) the "elsewhere" have lined up behind Uncle. Uncle's proposal or thinking was to allow a state-of-the-art reproc facility. But not much else was stated - deliberately. Which allowed both sides to push the deal through their own mouse traps.

Can have many tarapore radio active pools all over the country.


Well, the idea (K) was to reuse it in India 3 stage reactors. A very difficult bargain to make.

The bad news is that all atoms will need to be counted. Which is OK, that is the way things are.

The good news is that this world does not have enough counters to count!!!!!!!! Thanks partially to the Khans - AQ and A-meri. One for creating a network, the other for looking the other way.

My gut feel is that they will have to relent and let India do what India pleases.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Jun 2009 04:29

There was a plan for a new reactor. Dont know if FMCO comes into force to cut that one off.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 Jun 2009 03:12

Indo-US nuclear deal plays out in slow motion
Negotiations for a reprocessing agreement is yet to start, because Washington, Indian officials said, was yet to set a date. India is insistent that a reprocessing deal is absolutely necessary for the nuclear deal to be meaningful. The deal said negotiations would start within six months of the signing of the agreement, but the US is yet to do so. The newly nominated US undersecretary of state for arms control, Ellen Tauscher, told the US Senate at her confirmation hearing that negotiations would start before August 2. In her hearing, she even promised that the entire process of implementing the deal would be completed a year from that date. Given the present pace, there is some scepticism here, and it's not clear whether US tardiness is just bureaucratic or deliberate.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 11 Jun 2009 05:05

Last edited by Gerard on 11 Jun 2009 05:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: copyright

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Jun 2009 06:15



Old snakes still retain their poisonous fangs I would imagine.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 11 Jun 2009 07:29

Gerard wrote:
ramana wrote:So when is the CIRRUS replacement reactor going to be ordered?


Rather than when...... will there be a replacement for CIRUS?
Only if CIRRUS, which is responsible for upto a third of our WG Pu stockpile, has been replaced by some other method (low burn?).

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Jun 2009 07:35

India a major foreign policy priority: U.S

Mr. Burns held talks with External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna, Home Minister P. Chidambaram and Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon on a wide range of bilateral issues, including the unsettled neighbourhood, defence end-user agreement and India’s quest for reprocessing rights. He described his discussions as “excellent.”

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 Jun 2009 08:50

Anujan wrote: However what is not know is if the plutonium produced in PFBR is suitable for weapons or if India has modified its reprocessing plants to handle the fuel from PFBR.


Plutonium Isotopics - Non-Proliferation And Safeguards Issues
In the future, another major source of low burn-up plutonium will be the blanket material from fast breeder reactors (FBRs). FBR blankets will contain plutonium well within the weapons-grade range, even of "super-grade" (around 3% Pu-240). While it is commonly assumed this is not an immediate issue, because there has been a slow-down of FBR development, there are currently a number of FBRs and FBR demonstration projects. The Japanese reactor Monju is one example - depending on when Monju is restarted, blanket material could be being reprocessed within the next 3-4 years. It is reported that France has obtained WGPu from reprocessing blankets from the Rapsodie and Phénix prototype FBRs at Marcoule [16].

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Raju » 11 Jun 2009 11:42

NRao wrote:India a major foreign policy priority: U.S

Mr. Burns held talks with External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna, Home Minister P. Chidambaram and Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon on a wide range of bilateral issues, including the unsettled neighbourhood, defence end-user agreement and India’s quest for reprocessing rights. He described his discussions as “excellent.”


this has been the pattern, in public US says all the right words and on the ground they take the Indian govt for granted and make all their moves against it's interests.

probably the assumption is that with a pliant leadership, they just need to make soothing noises act against indian interests brazenly without much fallouts.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 Jun 2009 18:56


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 Jun 2009 18:58

India orders no-fishing zones
No-fishing zones will be created along 7,500 kilometres of designated coastal zones to protect 'important' government facilities such as nuclear plants, ports and dams, the senior home ministry official said.

'In the first step, no fishing will be permitted within 500 metres of four nuclear installations in Tamil Nadu state and one in Mumbai,' he added.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jun 2009 19:22

Gerard wrote:India orders no-fishing zones
No-fishing zones will be created along 7,500 kilometres of designated coastal zones to protect 'important' government facilities such as nuclear plants, ports and dams, the senior home ministry official said.

'In the first step, no fishing will be permitted within 500 metres of four nuclear installations in Tamil Nadu state and one in Mumbai,' he added.

It is for the protection of fishermen against Gojilla onlee!
Last edited by RajeshA on 11 Jun 2009 19:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby p_saggu » 11 Jun 2009 19:27

Is there a no fly zone in operation too?

There was an incident where a Black Hawk helicopter from a US navy destroyer berthed at chennai flew over kalpakkam, hovered over it for over an hour. (Taking air samples, pictures, casting the proverbial evil eye, :P and who knows what).
Unless GOI was complicit in this incidence, to let unkil do some sniffing - It was a serious breach of security.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Satya_anveshi » 11 Jun 2009 20:28

Toilet is reporting that a senior nuclear scientist (by Name: Loknath Mahalingam), who had access to sensitive information, working at Kaiga nuclear facility is missing. Abduction and kidnapping is said to be ruled out.

Is this the case where his mother thinks her son was better off dead at birth or severely handicapped?

Hope we have better practices in place to handle and prevent such cases.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 11 Jun 2009 20:32




chetak
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby chetak » 12 Jun 2009 00:26

p_saggu wrote:Is there a no fly zone in operation too?

There was an incident where a Black Hawk helicopter from a US navy destroyer berthed at chennai flew over kalpakkam, hovered over it for over an hour. (Taking air samples, pictures, casting the proverbial evil eye, :P and who knows what).
Unless GOI was complicit in this incidence, to let unkil do some sniffing - It was a serious breach of security.



The no fly zone was operational even at that time.

The americans claimed that the chopper was on a routine test flight after an engine change and blamed the whole thing on improper Indian briefing and the inexperience of the pilot who erred in his anxiety to complete the test flight.

Managed to bully their way out of the serious breach of protocol and brush the whole thing under the proverbial carpet.

Very curious incident. Should have taken out the fcukers with a Strela.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby p_saggu » 12 Jun 2009 00:49

As usual everything in Desh - chalta hai.

GOI probably never thought that what it's declared as a No fly zone will ever be breached. They just declared a NFZ and went off to sleep. I doubt if any air defense is deployed. I doubt if any fighters are armed and ready in Southern India to respond at short notice.

I doubt if even now some quarters realize the seriousness of the entire thing.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby chetak » 12 Jun 2009 00:56

p_saggu wrote:As usual everything in Desh - chalta hai.

GOI probably never thought that what it's declared as a No fly zone will ever be breached. They just declared a NFZ and went off to sleep. I doubt if any air defense is deployed. I doubt if any fighters are armed and ready in Southern India to respond at short notice.

I doubt if even now some quarters realize the seriousness of the entire thing.


That is exactly what happened. I know the bloody senior joker who
did not brief the USN ship assuming that someone else had done the job.

Even a rusty old MiG clunker just parked at the IN base at arakonam
would have put the fear of god into them as they would have picked it up on their satellites.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby negi » 12 Jun 2009 01:34

I thought NFZ is enforced by SA and AD assets without that even my roof top is a NFZ :roll: .

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2009 01:36

I thought they allowed the sniffing to let them know what the air sample was around the reactor site. So they know India knows stuff.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Jun 2009 01:47

In trying to decide whether our action/inaction is due to some Chankian Indian thinking or just plain incompetence, its helpful to use the Hanlon's razor:

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Prem » 12 Jun 2009 05:24

Suprised at the News in Paki paper .

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... es-missing
Indian nuclear scientist goes missing
Published: June 12, 2009
BANGALORE (Agencies) - A senior Indian nuclear scientist of the state-run Kaiga atomic power plant in coastal
Karnataka has been missing since Monday after he went on a morning walk in the township, police said
Thursday.
The scientist, L Mahalingam, 47, left home around 6 am Monday for his walk in Kaiga township, about 500 km
from here, but did not return home.
“Search is on to trace the missing scientist. We are doing our best to know his whereabouts,” Mallapur police
inspector Krishna Gokar told reporters.
Mahalingam’s wife Vinayakar Sundari filed a missing complaint at the Mallapur police station late Monday after
waiting day long for his return.
With the help of the Central Industrial Security Force (CISF), the police and the atomic power plant officials have

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 12 Jun 2009 05:56

^^^Times now is also reporting the same.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 13 Jun 2009 05:49


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Postby Gerard » 13 Jun 2009 05:59

India has problems with language of PSI
But, he pointed out, India has "difficulty" with some language of the agreement as it entails "artificial distinction in rights and responsibilities" of weapon and non-weapon states.
Menon said the language does not conform to present-day reality.


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