Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Hari Seldon » 28 Aug 2009 13:55

NoKo is indeed becoming a stick-ing point here. Dilli doesn't have a NoKo of its own to outsource testing to.

Perhaps it is time to play the game reeeally subtle and get Thimpu to announce an N-test soon. :twisted:

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby PratikDas » 28 Aug 2009 13:59

Hari Seldon wrote:NoKo is indeed becoming a stick-ing point here. Dilli doesn't have a NoKo of its own to outsource testing to.

Perhaps it is time to play the game reeeally subtle and get Thimpu to announce an N-test soon. :twisted:

LOL :rotfl:

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Sanku » 28 Aug 2009 14:14

vina wrote: However for India to progress, we NEED TO INTEGRATE WITH THE WORLD . .


There is no one fixed model for integrating with the world and it does not necessarily call for the door mat approach as seems to be the common understanding of "integration" in some sections of the GoI.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby csharma » 28 Aug 2009 14:19

http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/a ... uccess.htm

Why K Santhanam said Pokharan II was not a success

It was a major embarrassment for the country when a senior scientist of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, K Santhanam, made the revelation that Pokhran II, India's nuclear tests in 1998, was not entirely successful.
His statement that comes almost a decade after the test has landed the scientist in hot water. However, Santhanam says he stands by what he has said and has no intention of changing his stance.

In a telephonic interview with rediff.com's Vicky Nanjappa, Santhanam explains why there was a necessity to make this revelation 11 years later. He also disagrees with former President A P J Abdul Kalam [ Images ] who has said that Pokhran II was a complete success.

Why did you state that Pokharan II was not entirely a success?

As I have said earlier, based on the seismic measurements and also the opinions from experts, there was a much lower yield in the thermonuclear device test. It was lesser than what had been claimed at that time.

Your statement has created a furore in the nation.

I have just stated that facts. I did what I thought was necessary and I don't see why there needs to be an embarrassment due to this.

But you could have said this at that time itself, immediately after the tests were conducted.

I don't agree with you. I thought that the timing was right and hence decided on making this statement now.

There has been a hue and cry since your statement. Is there any chance you want to change your stand?

No. Why should I change my stand? I will always stand by what I have said and there is no question of changing my stand or my statement.

Even the expert opinion from across the world makes it clear that the yield in the thermonuclear device test was much lower than what was claimed.

I have maintained and will always maintain that the test was not more than 60 per cent successful in terms of the yield it generated. I have made this assessment based on the report of the instrumentation data that is available and also the programme coordinator.

Former President A P J Abdul Kalam, who was also involved with the tests, has said that Pokhran II was entirely successful.

I would like to react to that. First of all, Dr Kalam is not a nuclear scientist. He is a missile scientist and he was not present there at that time. He is blissfully ignorant of the facts. Do I need to say more?

All I want to say is that I stand my ground on this issue.

Home Minister P Chidambaram [ Images ] too has shared Kalam's view.

Chidambaram, being part of the establishment, is just repeating what the others are saying, like a parrot.

You have been accused of making this statement after over a decade at the insistence of people against the Bharatiya Janata Party [ Images ].

Let people say what they want. As I maintained I thought that the timing was right and hence this statement was made. I was not provoked or coaxed by anyone to issue such a statement and let me assure you that there is no malice involved in this.

You speak so much about the timing of making your statement. What is this timing exactly?

There is a change in the administration in the United States of America. They are bound to further pressurise India to sign the CTBT. In such an event it was necessary to make such a statement or speak the truth on the issue so that India does not rush into signing the CTBT.

Therefore, I say the timing of my statement was perfectly right.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby csharma » 28 Aug 2009 14:20

KS is saying that it is about CTBT. SeS has probably shaken people's confidence.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby milindc » 28 Aug 2009 14:33

Per HeadLines Today, MMS is holding a National Security Council meeting to review the security situation.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2009 14:39

csharma wrote:http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/aug/28/why-santhanam-said-pokharan-ii-was-not-a-success.htm

I have maintained and will always maintain that the test was not more than 60 per cent successful in terms of the yield it generated. I have made this assessment based on the report of the instrumentation data that is available and also the programme coordinator.


If the yield was 45 kT it was expected to be less than 60 kT?

If it was 20 kT it was expected to be about 30kT I guess - although I wonder why anyone might plan a 30 kT TN bum.

OTOH why would anyone plan a 60 kT TN? Khetolai?

More smoke and mirrors.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby RajeshA » 28 Aug 2009 14:54

I think R. Chidambaram and President APJ Kalam should not consider K. Santhanam's claims as attacks on them, and then go on counter-attack. They did what they had to do then, and K. Santhanam is doing what he has to do now.

At least the two should be consistent and emphasize that India should not sign CTBT and India needs to test anew.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby vina » 28 Aug 2009 14:59

More smoke and mirrors


Yup.. All part of the good cop /bad cop routine. But the message is very clear. Push CTBT against our will and the Pokhran range will communicate to the seismometers around the world. Loud and clear.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby ravi_s » 28 Aug 2009 15:06

checking out the websites of cnn-ibn and ndtv, i see that this issue does not even figure at all..not even in the sidelines..
is it a deliberate enforcement by GOI to stuff out any discussion in the media..

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Austin » 28 Aug 2009 15:08

Santy is great , he has nerves and balls of steel that too a maragning steel.
He did a great service to his country , by bring out the truth and standing by it.

It takes a great courage to stand against the entire establishment and speak the truth

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Hari Seldon » 28 Aug 2009 15:12

I certainly hope the establishment is speaking with different voices but is of one mind on this one. For all our sakes.

We don't have a deployed deterrent that can reach Beijing even now. What if they attack tomorrow - do a kargil on our himalayan regions - from Arunachal to sikkim to lahaul to leh? Just wondering onlee.

In any case, like someone mentioned, there's simply no way we can alienate both the US and PRC together. We have to ensure US neutrality in case of a war with PRC. No way an 'unprovoked' test can zimbly happen. A case for TN testing has to be built first.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Austin » 28 Aug 2009 15:16

csharma wrote:Former President A P J Abdul Kalam, who was also involved with the tests, has said that Pokhran II was entirely successful.

I would like to react to that. First of all, Dr Kalam is not a nuclear scientist. He is a missile scientist and he was not present there at that time. He is blissfully ignorant of the facts. Do I need to say more?



This puts the credibility of APJ in grave doubts , he is "the" establishment man

May be he did not want any controversy post his requirement and keep his Bharat Ratna intact and parrot the Establishment line

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2009 15:33

ravi_s wrote:checking out the websites of cnn-ibn and ndtv, i see that this issue does not even figure at all..not even in the sidelines..
is it a deliberate enforcement by GOI to stuff out any discussion in the media..



The media are interested only in the BJP infighting issue.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Shankar » 28 Aug 2009 16:08

Santy is great , he has nerves and balls of steel that too a maragning steel.
He did a great service to his country , by bring out the truth and standing by it.

It takes a great courage to stand against the entire establishment and speak the truth


Austin -he sure did the greatest of services to the nation -only he should have done it earlier -before the nuclear deal was signed - why he did not do then and doing now is the question mark

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby ravi_s » 28 Aug 2009 16:08

From an interview with KS available in rediff..
http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/a ... uccess.htm
Q: Former President A P J Abdul Kalam, who was also involved with the tests, has said that Pokhran II was entirely successful.

KS: I would like to react to that. First of all, Dr Kalam is not a nuclear scientist. He is a missile scientist and he was not present there at that time. He is blissfully ignorant of the facts. Do I need to say more?

All I want to say is that I stand my ground on this issue.

KS has come out openly and indicted APJ too . Now he says that his statement is based on the instrumentation data and not just on gora experts opinion.... is it the old DRDO instrumentation data which he is again referring to?

- Ravi

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2009 16:10

ravi_s wrote:From an interview with KS available in rediff..
http://news.rediff.com/interview/2009/a ... uccess.htm

Q: Former President A P J Abdul Kalam, who was also involved with the tests, has said that Pokhran II was entirely successful.

KS: I would like to react to that. First of all, Dr Kalam is not a nuclear scientist. He is a missile scientist and he was not present there at that time. He is blissfully ignorant of the facts. Do I need to say more?

All I want to say is that I stand my ground on this issue.

KS has come out openly and indicted APJ too . Now he says that his statement is based on the instrumentation data and not just on gora experts opinion.... is it the old DRDO instrumentation data which he is again referring to?

- Ravi


Read the passage again: "Instrumentation data that is available.."

This ex RAW man is clever with words.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Sanjay » 28 Aug 2009 16:15

Shiv, IIRC Kalam was present at the test site was he not ?

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Gerard » 28 Aug 2009 16:23

Avarachan wrote:
Why the nuclear deal is just not done
Dr Santhanam said he thought it was going to be a win-win deal for India.


Indo-US nuclear treaty: A good deal

How do you reconcile this?


How do you reconcile the above public statements with this?

Arun_S wrote:14 Apr 2008 Added later: 1.B. One comment on that BR Missile article by Shri Santhanam was "but America has capped Indian ability to realize and mount that small TN payload on its missiles with this India-US civil nuclear deal"

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Shankar » 28 Aug 2009 16:26

To understand this bomb design, imagine that within a bomb casing you have an implosion fission bomb and a cylinder casing of uranium-238 (tamper). Within the tamper is the lithium deuteride (fuel) and a hollow rod of plutonium-239 in the center of the cylinder. Separating the cylinder from the implosion bomb is a shield of uranium-238 and plastic foam that fills the remaining spaces in the bomb casing. Detonation of the bomb caused the following sequence of events:

1. The fission bomb imploded, giving off X-rays.
2. These X-rays heated the interior of the bomb and the tamper; the shield prevented premature detonation of the fuel.
3. The heat caused the tamper to expand and burn away, exerting pressure inward against the lithium deuterate.
4. The lithium deuterate was squeezed by about 30-fold.
5. The compression shock waves initiated fission in the plutonium rod.
6. The fissioning rod gave off radiation, heat and neutrons.

7. The neutrons went into the lithium deuterate, combined with the lithium and made tritium.
8. The combination of high temperature and pressure were sufficient for tritium-deuterium and deuterium-deuterium fusion reactions to occur, producing more heat, radiation and neutrons.

9. The neutrons from the fusion reactions induced fission in the uranium-238 pieces from the tamper and shield.
10. Fission of the tamper and shield pieces produced even more radiation and heat.
11. The bomb exploded.

where did we go wrong
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Shankar » 28 Aug 2009 16:27

stage 2 or 7??

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Sanjay » 28 Aug 2009 16:30

Gerard, I have a feeling that nothing on the nuclear front is done without the GOI's knowledge and approval including the doubts on the S-1 test. Everyone has an agenda - KS, PKI, RC, MMS, BRF, ABC, XYZ etc etc.

What has KS done ? He has effectively stopped any govt siging the CTBT.

What did PKI do ? He effectively stopped the NDA from signing the CTBT as part of the negotiations.

The NPAs didn't realise it but they ensured that no Indian govt could sign the CTBT and have ensured continuing pressure for more nuclear tests.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Gerard » 28 Aug 2009 16:30

KS: I would like to react to that. First of all, Dr Kalam is not a nuclear scientist. He is a missile scientist


http://www.drdo.org/pub/nl/aug2000/personnel.htm

The valuable research contributions of Dr Santhanam include: understanding the biochemical mechanism underlying nutritional requirement for adaptation to high altitude stress and for accelerated healing of wounds; evaluation of dietary fibre in processed foods and ration items to formulate diets/compo-packs for maximum health benefits, biochemical demonstration of cancer preventive properties of some dietary constituents, use of commercial enzymes for food processing, induction of mobile malaria clinic in Assam: and field trial of quick test kits to detect cerebral malaria.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Gerard » 28 Aug 2009 16:35

Sanjay wrote:What has KS done ? He has effectively stopped any govt siging the CTBT.


Yes. He admits this in the last interview:

You speak so much about the timing of making your statement. What is this timing exactly?

There is a change in the administration in the United States of America. They are bound to further pressurise India to sign the CTBT. In such an event it was necessary to make such a statement or speak the truth on the issue so that India does not rush into signing the CTBT.

Therefore, I say the timing of my statement was perfectly right.


We should xpost the above to the Psyops thread.

Words from a Master.

There is something missing though. Someone senior has to get up and say "leaving aside the debate about a fizzle, further tests are necessary before any CTBT signing is even contemplated". PKI won't do. It has to be someone with gravitas who has not yet commented on the matter.

The other shoe is yet to drop

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Shankar » 28 Aug 2009 16:35

Famous fizzles
The first ever fizzle was in the USA. America's 18th bomb test went wrong not once but twice. Buster Able failed to go off at all - presumably there was a serious "do we approach the lighted touch paper?" moment before they went back to look at what had gone wrong.

Three days later on 22 October 1951 they tried again and this time the high explosive went off but the plutonium produced a yield of - errrr... nothing.

Three years later the Soviets had to deal with their first fizzle. Fortunately it was test number 15 - if it had been the first test Stalin's henchman Beria would have sent the nuclear scientists to the gulags - at best.


Britain's first effort at a Hydrogen Bomb was a damp squib
Both the Americans and the Russians had already had a string of successes and so they either became too complacent or were trying too risky designs.

Britain's first effort at a Hydrogen Bomb was also a damp squib. The force of Grapple 1 on 15 May 1957 was a quarter of the size it was expected to be. Britain claimed it had built a super bomb but the Russians and Americans just sniggered.

A Chinese H-Bomb test in 1976 was another partial failure.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 037992.stm

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Willy » 28 Aug 2009 16:52

Me thinks that India is going to test before uncle SAM manhandles us into signing the CTBT. This is just an excuse for the test. :wink: :lol:

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Willy » 28 Aug 2009 17:07

All of you that are running down MMS need to realise that he has more ba**s than anyone in the earstwhile BJP govt had. He is in a situation where he has to fight not only the opposition but his own party as well. ABV didnt have the gumption to go after his party members and gave in to them all the time even though he knew that things needed to be done differently. ABV wanted to sack Modi but couldnt do it.All "IronMan" Advani can be remembered for these days is for freeing terrorists. No wonder he goes around tom tomming that he didnt know anything about it. MMS put his govt and political career on the line to push the nuke deal through.Point out anyone to me in the UPA or NDA govt capable of that these days. For all the shouting from the rooftop, the nuke deal was the best that India could get.Protest all you want but the deal has put India on a different level.

To be a great power one needs strong armed forces.To build strong armed forces one needs money and that comes from a strong economy.Defence and Economy go hand in hand. One cannot be strong without the other.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby RajeshA » 28 Aug 2009 17:19

Shankar wrote:To understand this bomb design, imagine that within a bomb casing you have an implosion fission bomb and a cylinder casing of uranium-238 (tamper). Within the tamper is the lithium deuteride (fuel) and a hollow rod of plutonium-239 in the center of the cylinder. Separating the cylinder from the implosion bomb is a shield of uranium-238 and plastic foam that fills the remaining spaces in the bomb casing. Detonation of the bomb caused the following sequence of events:

Thanks,
I was wondering what to cook this evening.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Raja Ram » 28 Aug 2009 17:21

It is best that this is not seen as UPA vs NDA thing. Both regimes have done things right and things wrong. What is of importance is India's interests and not the political careers of those who happen to be in and out of power.

MMS cheerleading is not right. He has much to answer for and we have to wait and see what he does. Judgement should be based on his actions. Right now, India needs a no nonsense leader who is not unidimensional in thought and action. India needs a leader who has the requisite understanding of its destiny and not be a prisoner to a shackled mind.

That, unfortunately is in short supply both in the goverment and in the opposition. It is not beyond MMS to understand what needs to be done, and one hopes that he does the right thing. If he does do what is in India's interests, then he too shall be deserving of a rightful place of honour along with his illustrious predecessors.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby ksmahesh » 28 Aug 2009 17:22

Willy wrote:All of you that are running down MMS need to realise that he has more ba**s than anyone in the earstwhile BJP govt had. He is in a situation where he has to fight not only the opposition but his own party as well. ABV didnt have the gumption to go after his party members and gave in to them all the time even though he knew that things needed to be done differently. ABV wanted to sack Modi but couldnt do it.All "IronMan" Advani can be remembered for these days is for freeing terrorists. No wonder he goes around tom tomming that he didnt know anything about it. MMS put his govt and political career on the line to push the nuke deal through.Point out anyone to me in the UPA or NDA govt capable of that these days. For all the shouting from the rooftop, the nuke deal was the best that India could get.Protest all you want but the deal has put India on a different level.


Off Topic nonsense...

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby csharma » 28 Aug 2009 17:25

Does this really stop India from signing CTBT? I am not 100% sure. There can be a sustained media campaign to discredit him if the govt wants to go ahead with CTBT. So we have to wait and watch.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby abhiti » 28 Aug 2009 17:33

Willy wrote:All of you that are running down MMS need to realise that he has more ba**s than anyone in the earstwhile BJP govt had. He is in a situation where he has to fight not only the opposition but his own party as well. ABV didnt have the gumption to go after his party members and gave in to them all the time even though he knew that things needed to be done differently. ABV wanted to sack Modi but couldnt do it.All "IronMan" Advani can be remembered for these days is for freeing terrorists. No wonder he goes around tom tomming that he didnt know anything about it. MMS put his govt and political career on the line to push the nuke deal through.Point out anyone to me in the UPA or NDA govt capable of that these days. For all the shouting from the rooftop, the nuke deal was the best that India could get.Protest all you want but the deal has put India on a different level.


Is it a joke or what? Let me see MMS fight corruption at exact top of the food chain in Congress - yes the Sonia parivar - and I will give MMS credit. Sack Modi...you mean BJP should commit harakiri? When did MMS sack Budda for Nandigram? And let us see Nandigram isn't something which lasted only a few weeks. The killings and reign of terror went on for six months or more! MMS found it difficult to utter a single word. How about CBIs clean chits to everyone and anyone helping his govt? What is so "best" about nuke deal? I don't see no level change for India. I still see US forcing India to shut up after 26/11 *anyone remembers Gilani MMS summit*, I still see Pak sending terrorists in hordes to India, I still see Congress protesting arrest of terrorists, I still see China make new incursions into India everyday, I still see US requiring EUM. So what is the new level that people are claiming? Now I will provide example of something that gave India new level - nuke test. But I have never seen America dole out new level to anyone...it is only something India can do for itself.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2009 17:42

Consider this "what if?" scenario that comes to mind.

MMS gives a firm commitment to sign the CTBT, but only after a series of tests. Just like China and France did?

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby abhiti » 28 Aug 2009 17:45

csharma wrote:Does this really stop India from signing CTBT? I am not 100% sure. There can be a sustained media campaign to discredit him if the govt wants to go ahead with CTBT. So we have to wait and watch.


Right govt will do all in its power to do whatever it wants. But what I don't understand is how come most Indians are naive enough to assume one is enough. I have never seen even one US military leader who will allow such a joke to stand. Hell...even after hundreds of test and most advanced nuke industry in the world they still want to test more and not depend on nuke simulations.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby RajeshA » 28 Aug 2009 17:52

shiv wrote:Consider this "what if?" scenario that comes to mind.

MMS gives a firm commitment to sign the CTBT, but only after a series of tests. Just like China and France did?


But then everybody would want their own test series, and not just the India+N5+Pakistan+NoKo, but everybody else as well.

CTBT is, in my opinion, only a dream. It can't happen. There will always be asymmetries amongst nuclear-capable adversaries. Even global nuclear disarmament has a better chance of success than CTBT. The other possibility is a N6-Perpetuation + CRE for all others (Pakistan, NoKo, Iran), which demands a level of cooperation amongst the N6 like never before, which too ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Dmurphy » 28 Aug 2009 17:54

shiv wrote:Consider this "what if?" scenario that comes to mind.

MMS gives a firm commitment to sign the CTBT, but only after a series of tests. Just like China and France did?

Nice idea. Though its highly improbable that he will commit to signing the CTBT even before the tests are conducted. Infact a resolution to sign the CTBT is a good firefighting solution to the hulla balloo that will be raised after the tests are actually conducted. JMT.

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby harbans » 28 Aug 2009 18:03

* Pokhran-II achieved 100 per cent desired results: Kakodkar


STAFF WRITER 17:6 HRS IST

Indore, Aug 28 (PTI) Dismissing a top nuclear scientist's contention that Pokharan II was not a complete success, Atomic Energy Commission chief Anil Kakodkar today said the tests in 1998 achieved "100 per cent desired results".

Speaking at a function organised by the Raja Ramanna Centre for Advanced Technology here, Kakodkar said, "Pokhran II tests were a complete success and they achieved 100 per cent desired results."

On Wednesday, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) representative for Pokhran II K Santhanam had said that India should not sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) as the country needed to carry out more tests since the thermonuclear tests in 1998 had failed to produce the desired results.


http://www.ptinews.com/news/253135_Pokh ... --Kakodkar

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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby vina » 28 Aug 2009 18:04

Right govt will do all in its power to do whatever it wants. But what I don't understand is how come most Indians are naive enough to assume one is enough. I have never seen even one US military leader who will allow such a joke to stand. Hell...even after hundreds of test and most advanced nuke industry in the world they still want to test more and not depend on nuke simulations.


The reasons to test are different. I would think that the Indian TN weapon (whether it fizzled or not is debatable, lets say it needs further testing to be perfected) will be at par, weight and yield wise with the others in the world or at best wont be too far behind.

The reasons why we may want to test it to make sure that we have perfected the weapon and be 100% sure that it will work if it needs to. AmirKhan's reasons are different. They want to go to next level designs.

CTBT will freeze everyone at current level of capability . If you have caught up with the AmirKhan and Russies, that is great.

It is actually a great advantage for you. The Americans give up a LOT MORE in such a scenario. Yeah, model all that you will, but you cannot be sure your next gen weapon will work UNLESS you test . So basically AmirKhan's technology lead is brought down to zilch, nada,zero, cipher,shoonya. Now you know why the Republicans would NOT pass the CTBT and ratify it in the senate. It ties down Unkil.

So this message to NPAs and BO delivered via K. Santhanam translates into this.

CTBT has tremendous costs,both on you and us. So think carefully and deeply before pushing us on CTBT and trying to railroad it over an unwilling India. If you really want it that badly, it can happen only in two ways 1) You push us, and then you will hear from us at Pokhran on your seismometers or 2) We negotiate and we agree to a limited number of tests and we enter as a de jure power . For India , singing CTBT AND NPT AFTER testing makes eminent sense


Problem for Amirkhan is Pakiland. Pig Nation will say what about equal/equal Unkil ?. Unkil has to say screw you, you are no equal ( Condi said that to the Porkis, BO has to repeat it loudly and clearly and show it in actions) . And more importantly, cut the Chin-Paki link of weapons and strategic support.

I think someday (I know it hasnt' happened, but one day it will soon), OB will sit up and it will dawn on him and the State Dept idiots, that Pakistan WONT give up the Al-Keedas and others and allow Afghanistan to be stabilized UNLESS it is totally forced to do so and is broken.

For all the bluster, the Pakis aint North Koreans or Burmese. They will crumble. You need to pull all the levers , economic, military and political. Only then will the Paki strategy of throwing a terrorist or two when pressure is cranked up and then going back to business end. Unkil will continue footing a gigantic bill in Afghanistan , continue to lose men and sink deeper into a possible quagmire.

Vietnam could NOT be won becuase North Vietnam had Chinese and Russian support. That is what allowed them to stay the course. Cut the Chinese support Pakiland and it can be handled very easily indeed. America will one day realize that they are actually fighting a Chinese proxy (a random Abdul no doubt, but still a proxy) and that will be the day when the Afghan conundrum can be broken.

Long term, if US continues the course it is on, it risks another Vietnam in Afghanistan. If Vietnam was the millstone around LBJ's neck, Afghanistan can be the same on Obama.

shiv
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2009 18:11

harbans wrote: tests in 1998 achieved "100 per cent desired results".


http://www.ptinews.com/news/253135_Pokh ... --Kakodkar



Hmmm .. more RAW semantics.

100% "desired results"

:rotfl:

Surya
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Re: Pokhran II not fully successful: Scientist

Postby Surya » 28 Aug 2009 18:13

Vina

while in some agreement with you - I cringe at the honourable Vietnamese being mentioned in the same breath as the Pukis.


Use some other example please


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