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India and the Social Sciences

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby MohanJ » 02 Jan 2003 01:00

I have been following Wendy's Child Syndrome for some time.. but never stumbled on this thread.. until Kaushalji's recent post. Arun, many thanks for opening an important thread which aptly belongs to 'General Indian History' and 'Current Affairs' and introducing Prof. S.N. Balagangadhara.
I look forward to discussion on this subject, which needs attention as much as Pakistan!

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 02 Jan 2003 09:43

Originally posted by narayanan:
Gee! The gem of this thread is, as always:
You will be wasting the engineers' time. -Rahul Mehta
RM: See post icon displayed above. "Roger to that!" :)

For the record, the above statement of mine, that "You will be wasting the engineers' time." came in the following context

S.K.Mody: The social sciences desperately need some engineers.

Rahul Mehta: You will be wasting the engineers' time.
-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 02 Jan 2003 20:05

The anti Hindu reports that ABVs musings (Hindutva = Bharateeyata) draw flak.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2003010204660100.htm

The entire text of ABVs Goa musings appeared in

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/dec/31pm2.htm

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby svinayak » 05 Jan 2003 05:11

[url=http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=33193548]The quiet battle for Hindutva
[/url]

From the realm of corporate politics, to the break-up of the joint family, to the dominance of individual centred parties, individualism has dominated post-Independence Indian behaviour.

This individualism is typically reflected in material and ideological terms. Individuals would like their share of the spoils when the party they have supported comes to power.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 05 Jan 2003 07:40

Good article, except the following badly needed correction

This individualism is typically reflected in material and ideological terms. Individuals would like their share of the spoils when the party they have supported comes to power.
This is NOT individualism. In plain vanilla terms, it is called "plain vanilla bribery".

The netaa (candidate) promises to a businessmen etc that if he wins elections and becomes MP/Minister, he will shower GoI favors on that businessmen etc EVEN IF it ruins the nation and lives of commons. There is ZERO ideology or individualism here -- its 100% "deal making" or bribery.

The ideologies like p-hindutvaism, p-secism and, the lastest fads(=isms), p-educationism and p-8%-growthism are NOTHING but masks they wear to cover their deals.

The CPM/Congress/RSS-neta these days are nothing but wheelers-and-dealers ... typical dalaals except that dalaals are mostly honest.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Jan 2003 22:10

Originally posted by narayanan:

Its great to see Dr. Malhotra and Dr. Balagangdhra or whatever contributing to the Greenhouse Effect to enthralled audiences, but we have immediate problems to solve, not theoretical ones.
Dear Narayanan : please distinguish between the war and the battle. The immediate battle is against FOIL/Sabrang etc., kind of people; but the war is against the production of such kind of people.

How is it that India manages to produce these kind of morons, and how is it that these morons find welcome arms in American academia ?

If Rajiv Malhotra and Prof. Balu succeed in their quests ( and their missions are only parts of a larger one ), then the soil will be inhospitable to the production of further weeds like Vijay Prashad and Biju Matthews.

I agree, however, that most of the effectiveness of the people on this thread would be best used in the current battle around IDRF.

With regards,
-Arun

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 06 Jan 2003 12:12

Will not Rafiq Zakaria retrench them from politics?

S Gurumurthy

`Indian Muslims must try and become an integral part of the mainstream'; `get out of their ghetto mentality'; `do some introspection'. If asked `whether they have genuinely tried to contribute to the strengthening of Hindu-Muslim relations since Partition', the `answer will be no.'

``They must open their eyes to the ground reality that an increasing number of Hindus have begun to hate them...it has infected the rich as much as the poor; men as much as women; the young as much as the old. Even children are no longer free from it.''

``Instead of coming out openly against Pakistan and taking a strong stand against the jihadis, the so-called guardians of Indian Muslims spend most of their time in running their own political shops to buttress their communal leadership.''

``Muslims are multiplying fast, much more than Hindus. The Census figures, decade after decade, confirm it. Muslims have not taken to family planning `as seriously as the Hindus'; this has to be corrected. ``Indian Muslims must disown the bigotism which has made Muslims pariahs everywhere. They must give to non-Muslims the assurance that their religion stands for `live and let live.' ``Instead of talking it over with Hindus, `confrontation was adopted' by Muslims on the Babri masjid issue, giving `rise to more hatred against the Muslims.' ``There is meaningless 'controversy' about Muslims singing Vande Mataram. Muslims `must stand up when it is sung as a mark of respect to an anthem,' which has a hoary past.'' These are not extracts from a resolution of the VHP. Not a Togadia bursting out as he often does. Not the slogans of the Bajrang Dal. This is what Rafiq Zakaria, a renowned Muslim intellectual, says in his latest book `Communal Rage in Secular India'. Zakaria says that even secularism is inadequate to protect the interests of the Muslims. Zakaria even recalls Sardar Patel's words to him in a personal meeting on May 19, 1950, ``that the goodwill of the majority is best safeguard of the minority.''

It is the only an honest introspection by a well-known Muslim leader in post-independent India. Had something like this come earlier, immediately after the Partition, the post-independence history of India would have been very different. Partition had hurt the Hindu psyche. Hurt the Hindu-Muslim relations almost irreparably. Yet there was hardly a trace of introspection, of any remorse in the post-independence Muslim leadership. The Muslim League continued to function in secular India, even got certificates from seculars as a secular party.

Why? Why did Indian Muslims not feel the need to introspect in Independent India? The answer is the vote bank politics, the secularist distortion of national polity. This obviated the Muslims from introspecting after Partition. The result of this secular distortion is what Zakaria now diagnoses as the principal distortions in the Muslim community. That is: Indian Muslims are not part of the mainstream; live in ghettos; are bigoted; not contribute to Hindu-Muslim amity; not coming out openly against Pakistan and Jihadis; not adopting family planning, multiply more than Hindus; not assuring the fellow Hindus that Islam means `live and let live'; not respecting Hindu sentiments on Ram Temple; not respecting the greatly respected Vade Mataram. The list goes on. Zakaria's introspection amounts to a confession that the secular polity was never religion-neutral. It was mere cover to turn the minorities into ballot papers.

But, why this delayed introspection now? Not earlier? The answer is obvious. The Muslim introspection that the secular polity prevented for fifty years the rise of Hindutva seems to have achieved. That is, the politics of Hindutva seems to be a corrective to the post-independent distortions in national poliy. Not, as the seculars campaign, a distortion in itself.

What Rafiq Zakaria has said can set right the Hindu-Muslim relations forever. If he succeeds will he not retrench the seculars from politics altogether?

Writer's email: comment@gurumurthy.net

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Amitabh » 06 Jan 2003 20:44

Wow, yet another thread that is degenerating into a debate over secularism, minorities and Hindu-Muslim relations.

Why don't we just start a discussion called "Secularism or Pseudo-secularism? The Stirring Saga of Hindu-Muslim relations since 1192"? That should keep everything nicely contained.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 07 Jan 2003 07:54

Najma Heptullah ( I did not know that Aamir Khan was her nephew) is the grand daughter (?) of Maulana Azad. She was one of the courageous few who spoke up against RG and the prevailing wisdom in Congress on the ShahBanu case. But the secularists totally ignored her and the Mullahs won. The Hindu secularists make the assumption that they speak for the progressive Muslim. This is a false assumption. Let the progressive Muslim speak for himself/herself and as in this and other instances they make eminent sense.

Najma Heptullah criticises Muslim leaders
Press Trust of India
Pune, January 7

Rajya Sabha Deputy Chairperson Najma Heptullah on Monday questioned the "silence" of top Muslim leaders whenever Hindu temples were attacked by terrorists or when women not wearing burqas were killed.
Speaking at a conference "Secularism in danger" organised by Maulana Azad foundation and minority forum at the Poona Club here, she asked "Muslims to be more vocal whenever a Hindu place of worship is attacked."

"The Muslims are answerable to Allah and not to any maulavis and hence they should be vocal in condemning any terrorist attack on temples", she said.

Heptullah also asked the Muslims not to take pride in calling themselves as minorities but instead feel proud in calling themselves as Indians.

"When there is considerable number of Muslims in India than Bangladesh, why should they call themselves minorities," she asked?"

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 09 Jan 2003 20:58

[url=http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives2/default12.asp?main_variable=OPED&file_name=opd3%2Etxt&counter_img=3&phy_path_it=E%3A%5Cdailypioneer%5Carchives2%5Cjan703]

India of old-new dreams - By Claude Arpi[/url]

The first days of the New Year are a time for reflection. During the
last few days, I have been "musing" over the past 28 years that I
spent in this country. Though I am still a French man, I adopted
this country as my own long ago However, today, I am sad. When I
left France for India, I came with a dream: I was going to the land
of the Vedas, of the Buddha, a continent with an eternal religion. I
thought everyone in this country was turned "inwards", seeking a
higher light; I believed India would soon be able to guide the world
towards a more meaningful tomorrow. Why I am sad now? I can't help
feeling a terrible divide between this dream and today's reality (at
least the one depicted in the English media).

Opening a "national" newspaper is a most depressing act. This
morning for example, I read: after three days of deliberations, an
Indian History Congress has decided to set up a committee to examine
the new history text-books brought out by NCERT. Their reason is
that the Congress "takes note of the reports in the press that
elementary requirements of impartiality when dealing with religious,
linguistic and cultural traditions had been given a go-by."

Is it not disheartening that historians base their judgement on
press reports and not on their own scholarship? Then why do they
spend three days discussing text-books when there are so many more
important subjects related to history to be discussed? What about
the neglected discoveries of Poompuhar or the new sites in the Gulf
of Cambay? What about the non-release of the Henderson Brooks Report
of 1962 war or Indira Gandhi-Bhutto negotiations of 1972 which are
still classified? Are they not history too? What is sad and shocking
is that these historians, like many intellectuals in India, are not
at all concerned by what has always made India great, they prefer to
denigrate India. Fifty-five years ago, Mahatma Gandhi wanted "a
Harrow boy, a Cambridge graduate, and a barrister" to carry on the
negotiations with the British. More than half a century later,
India's so-called elite are ashamed of what has been the fabric and
genius of their culture

One can see the tremendous repercussions of this mentality in all
fields of life and most particularly in education. For example,
India should be proud to have an Education Minister who is not only
a physicist, but also a knower of the country's deeper traditions.
But the reaction is reverse. He is constantly maligned for no rhyme
or reason.
His only crime is to have tried to introduce some
Indianness in a colonial system of education. On several occasion,
talking to Indian friends, I have had the surprise of being told
that "Indianisation" of education is part of a "fascist programme".

At the dawn of this New Year, this makes me sad. I still believe
in "India of the ages", but I cannot grasp why Indians themselves
still refuse to acknowledge the greatness of their culture. Even if
you look at what is happening abroad today, you can see the truth of
Andre Malraux's words: "The 21st century will be spiritual or will
not be." It is estimated that 12 million Americans are today
practicing yoga and that 450 yoga centers are blossoming in the US.
The same tidal wave is submerging Europe. In France alone, more than
one million people are practicing Buddhist meditation.


Recently, some disciples of yogacharya BKS Iyengar decided to teach
yoga asanas to villagers. As a first experiment, Jalore, a small
town located in Rajasthan, was chosen and a few selected teachers
went there for a week. One teacher recounts: "The greatest challenge
came on the day of our arrival, when we were briefed about the
tradition and lifestyle of the people of this region. Society here
is very traditional and conservative." Women wear saris with pallu
in front of elders; a daughter-in-law could not sit in front of
elders; men had never worn shorts.

A few days later, all barriers had gone. The teacher reported: "We
had not realised it at first, but along with teaching yoga, we had
brought about some kind of social change in this small town... Even
the organisers were very much surprised when they learnt how easily
people had accepted 'mixed' classes... the response, the enthusiasm,
the love and affection shown by the local people willed us to
continue."

This experience shows not only how ingrained these traditional
sciences are in the very blood of the ordinary Indians but also how
they could bring immediate benefit to the Indian society. If
experiences similar to Iyengar's could be multiplied by hundred or
thousand, if every school in this country could be given the
possibility to study and practice India's ancient knowledge along
with modern subjects, India would become closer to the place I
dreamt of thirty years ago.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Aditi Parikh » 11 Jan 2003 00:33


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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2003 07:01

Communalism in India- The Role of Secular Liberals
Author: Dr. Ajay Chrungoo
Publication: Kashmir Sentinel
Date: October 1- 31, 2002

Indian 'secular' liberals have thrown a bombshell-the country runs
the risk of sliding into violence, intolerance, authoritarianism and
economic chaos if the liberals do not go on offensive. Thanks to the
obliging media, these liberals have succeeded in even ensuring that
voices critical to them are effectively suppressed.

The million-dollar question, however, is why have these liberals
failed to move the vast Indian middle class? The insinuation now is
that Hindus are turning communal. They have embarked on a programme
of ethnic cleansing of Muslims. Average Indian rebuts the claim
saying it is 'Secular' liberal who is sowing the seeds of violent
hatred between the two major communities. Indians are distancing
from the secular liberal elite. A 'secular liberal is looked upon
with suspicion. He is seen compulsive Hindu basher, se political
agenda includes Working against national interests, promoting caste-
communal schism and support to international pan-Islamist elements.
Common Indian is alarmed by an unholy alliance of secular liberals,
Pan-Islamists and Marxists of different hues.

This has created a profound crisis of credibility for secular-
liberal intellectual in India. Even Vir Singhvi, who otherwise sides
with Secularvadis is constrained to remark, "there is something
profoundly worrying in the response of what might be called the
secular establishment to the massacre at Godhra. Any media-indeed,
any secular establishment-that fails to take into account the
genuine concerns of the people risks losing its own credibility.
Something like that happened in the mid-eighties when an aggressive
hard secularism on the part of the press and govt. led even moderate
Hindus to believe that they had become second-class citizens in
their own country. It was this Hindu backlash that brought the
Ayodhya movement, till then a fringe activity to the forefront,
fuelled the rise of L. K. Advani."

'Aggressive' secularism has created a culture, which is keeping
alive the hatred and suspicion between the two major communities. It
has failed to create a healthy and lasting inter-community
interface. Instead secular liberal by becoming unabashed champion of
Muslim communalism, is forcing confrontation between the two
communities. This has been seen in Gujarat and elsewhere.

Flawed Argument:

The framework within which secular framework operates reveals an
inherent contradiction. It pronounces majority communalism as more
dangerous, oppressive, hegemonistic, fascist etc and with unfettered
striking power. To insulate minorities from this majoritarian
tyranny, protective discrimination is justified. All this
presupposes an identity, which makes Hindus the national majority.
This majority needs to evolve a socio-political behaviour so that it
does not relapse into practicising mindless majoritarianism, it is
argued. To counter this tyranny the national majority needs to be
put under constant pressure. Secular liberal has evolved a
perspective which goes like this. Support to all those who weaken
Indian state externally and internally, endorsement of Musharraf to
project him as a peacemaker and demonizing Indian state and
opposition to any measure that strengthens Indian defence e.g.
nuclear status. In Kashmir secular liberal sides with Islamist
separatists and justifies genocide against non-Muslims there. Why
does Musharraf talk of a split opinion on Kashmir in India? It is
this fifth columnist secular liberal he has in mind.

In Gujarat the secular liberal tries to give cover to ISI activities
by underplaying Godhra and demonizing the majority. To caricature
and debunk the majority the secular liberal needs a powerful symbol.
Sangh Parivar fits the bill and Modi becomes 'Milosevic' Modi,
because this parivar has seen through the secular conspiracy to
weaken India.

To carry the argument further, the secular liberal demands
concessions for minority on the premise that Hindus form the
national majority. In political discourse, however, Hindu identity
is sought to be delegitimised. It is dismissed as a misnomer or at
the most a geographical expression. Hindu identity as per this
reference frame is essentially a collectivity formed as a result of
artificial fusion of multitude of cultures or nationalities. It is
an invented or a crafted identity, which served the colonial
imperatives to rule over India. This sham identity needs to be
ridiculed, so goes the secular argument. This paradigm creates a
conceptional situation, where Muslims emerge as the monolithic
dominant group and Hindus, an amalgam of different castes and
nationalities. Its implications create social instability.
Psychologically Hindu majority begins perceiving Muslim minority as
usurper. At other level, by denying due respectability to Hindu
majority, there is desensitization of Hindus to the genuine
deprivations of the minority.

Muslim minority, fed on the concepts that Hindu identity is a
concoction and Hindus a fissured society, begins visualizing itself
as majority, particularly in those areas, where it has significant
Muslim presence. This minority then seeks to redefine its
relationship with the majority-ignoring the 'whole' and recognizing
only the 'cleavages and components' among the majority. Promoting
caste and ethnic tensions among Hindus thus emerges as the central'
sociopolitical agenda for Muslims. Laloo Yadav, Mayawati, Mulayam
Singh, VP Singh etc become the 'secular messiahs'. Secular liberal
provides the ideological wherewithal and polemical support to push
forward this line.

The new false consciousness once it gets combusted with ideas of
Ummah of Pan-Islamism, builds a self-image of Muslims having
invincible reach and sway. The carnage of Godhra, Bombay blasts or
religious cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus are the suicidal provocation
to the majority, which can only be explained on the basis of this
enlarged self-image and reach. The efforts of secular liberals to
project Godhra as merely a 'criminal act', is to quote Koenrad Elst,
an intellectual crime of negationism. The very quality of these acts
is such that these cannot be accomplished without a significant
connivance and support at the societal level.

The liberal paradigm has created a volatile substratum for Hindu-
Muslim strife. The ruthless selectivity with which liberals reacted
to the Gujarat happenings added fuel to the fire. In the context of
communal violence in Gujarat, liberals focussed on state 'inaction'
and indicted not only the government but also the Hindu society.
Compare this with their response to terrorism in J&K. Here the focus
is on deliberate state action-the 'state terrorism'. In Kashmir the
liberal rationalise the explicit connivance of different segments of
Kashmiri Muslim society in the religious cleansing of Hindus. In
Kashmir the state action is described as 'state terrorism', while in
Gujarat state 'in action' is described as state terrorism. Heads I
Win Tails You Lose!

It does not stop here. The BJP proposal for a snap poll in Gujarat
invites spontaneous disapproval and rejection from liberals. This
despite that a duly elected government has every right to call for
snap polls at any time of its choosing. How is it morally valid to
conduct elections in J&K, when lakhs of people become refugees in
their own state and lose right to live? Another fraud called "Postal
ballot arrangement for voting in exile" helps the ruling
dispensation to further tighten the siege. "Postal ballot" for
migrants is' hailed by liberals as concern of Indian state for
Pandit refugees. The problem has since been compounded by the
addition of thousands of other refugees-the victims of religious-
cleansing in the Muslim-majority areas of Jammu province
and "border" migrants.

Prem Shanker Jha, another self-proclaimed ideologue on Kashmir
decries Vajpayee's remarks on Gujarat in the BJP convention. He
says... what was profoundly wrong with Vajpayee's remarks was not
their content but the occasion he chose to make them ... In short
what Vajpayee managed to do was to legitimize the deliberate use of
hatred as a political instrument...." On Kashmir, Jha not only
maintains wilful silence on violent hatred let loose by JKLF Hizbul
Mujahideen combine against Kashmiri Hindus, but goes to such absurd
lengths as to attribute fundamentalist insurgency in Kashmir
to "disproportionate number of salaried jobs that. have gone to
Kashmiri Pandits." A subtle justification for genocide of Kashmiri
Hindus. Liberals hail JKLF as an ultra secular outfit fighting a
national-liberation movement. And how was JKLF fighting a national
liberation movement through religious-cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus
and silencing secular political dissent through plain murders. If
all this is accepted the myths the secular liberals have woven
around JKLF collapse. Hence the disinformation and make believe
theses. Similar motives explain why massacres in Jammu region are
attributed solely to foreign terrorists by the secular liberals,
This helps absolve local terrorists of the charge of being communal.
AG Noorani continues to render sane advice" on Kashmir to the
nation. He would like us to accept that the so-called erosion of
article 370 is not only a constitutional "abuse" but also a "moral
wrong". For him the wholesale religious-cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus
and their perpetual exile is no "moral wrong". Today the Left
establishment takes pride in promoting the, "sane advice" of this
veteran anticommunist on Sangh Parivar.

(The writer heads Panun Kashmir)

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Arvind » 11 Jan 2003 10:27

http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/jan/10pbd3.htm

Is Sir Vidia a brown sahib or does he have a point?

The oldest generations in my family used to say that given the choice between a Briton and a Moslem tyrrant they would any day choose the Briton... They would say thank the gods Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan were destroyed by the Britons, life is much better for that.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby tiruvar00r » 11 Jan 2003 11:04

Having read India wounded civilization,(and a couple of others) Sir vidia is only a question of whom he hates less or rather, what he is irritated by less.

He dislikes the New york times(and the feeling is mutual) kind of liberal American intellectual even more. There is a story of how he was invited to a party with George Lucas(star Wars etc) and he ended up asking him if he knew much hungarian litrature in translation because he had mistaken him for the hungarian critic george lukas.

Salt of the earth types.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby svinayak » 13 Jan 2003 13:30

[url=http://www.sulekha.com/articledesc.asp?cid=285289]The Groan: Loss of Scholarship and High Drama in “South Asian” Studies - Part IV
[/url]

What becomes obvious there as in so many other instances that to an increasing number of South Asian academics there is only one correct way to understand and interpret things, and all variance is, simply, wrong. That is the way the various British groups viewed and interpreted India and Hinduism in the 1800s and early 1900s, and it is what prompted a spate of books and articles challenging the Orientalist and missionary views as being too myopic and inaccurate. Unfortunately, the main difference between the narrow-mindedness of those days and that of today seems to be in form alone. As William James reflected, "many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." Indology, and scholarship in general, deserve much more.”

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 15 Jan 2003 09:51

Joint families are planet-friendly: Scientists
RASHMEE Z AHMED

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, JANUARY 14, 2003 06:24:38 PM ]

LONDON: To some, the great Indian joint family is tiresomely traditional, hopelessly outdated and irretrievably on the decline, but Western scientists say it may actually be a hugely 'green' or eco-friendly institution.

And while we are on the subject, divorce is bad for the eco-system as well.

Not to speak of the new urban trend from Mumbai to Madrid of leaving mum and dad to live alone.

The startling new arguments are newly published in Britain's Nature group of publications. They are part of a study that says the modern trend for a decreasing number of generations to live under one roof is damaging the environment. It says split families and fragmented households may be more damaging than simple population growth.

India is part of the doleful world snapshot of so-called bio-diversity hotspots, says ecologist Jianguo Liu, who conducted the controversial study.

A biodiversity hotspot is a region where large numbers of species are endangered or threatened by human activity.

"In the future, this trend will be more profound in India", Liu told this paper.

He said: "During 2000-2015, the average annual rate of growth in population size in India is projected to be 1.3 per cent, while the rate of growth in household numbers is projected to be 2.4 per cent. The latter will likely be almost twice as high as the former".

This because of the ugliest reason of them all, families splitting up. Says Liu, "average (Indian) household size is projected to be reduced from approximately 5.5 to about 4.8".

He says this confirms the insidious trend observed in the 15-year-period from 1985, when the number of Indian households grew 30 per cent faster than the population.

Average "household size declined from 5.8 to 5.5", Liu said.

The study, conducted by Liu and his Michigan University team, says the abundance of dwellings, with just one, two or three occupants, as befits the typical nuclear family, can cause a sharp rise in the use of energy, land, construction materials and water. Both two-person and six-person households, for example, typically have one refrigerator.

In other words, the family that stays together keeps the planet green.

Experts admitted the study was right in its basic conclusions that more households meant an increase in energy use. But sociologists said they were still unconvinced that extended families were the 'greenest' on the globe.

Liu, an ecologist who studies the effects of economics on ecosystems, says this "may be a wake-up call"

It may indicate "that everything we do, including personal freedom and personal choice, may have an impact on the environment".

The jury is still out on whether the planet can really be saved by India's generation X simply moving out of the barsati and back home with mum and dad.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 09 Feb 2003 14:30

The secularists never give up in their quest to paint the humanitarian work of organizations such as IDRF with the same brush as the terrorist murders of the Jihadists.

"There were moments of embarrassment in the conference when Jairam Ramesh of
the Congress, who attended sessions as a special invitee, asked the US and
Israeli delegates whether they agreed that the Hindu fundamentalists posed a
threat to regional peace and stability as much as the Islamic fundamentalists.
To the relief of the organisers, the delegates replied in the negative."


http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/08secu.htm

Indo-US-Israel dialogue pushes
for anti-terror partnership

Sheela Bhatt in New Delhi | February 09, 2003 04:43 IST

An Indo-US-Israel dialogue on terrorism held in New Delhi on February 6
and 7 concluded that the three governments must set up "a joint trilateral
mechanism to pool resources, capabilities and experience of the three countries
for concerted action against international terrorism."
A small group of retired officers and experts from India, Israel and the
US have constituted themselves into a ginger group to push their governments to
unite in a common front to combat international terrorism.

During the close-door dialogue it was pointed out that the three
countries have been at the receiving end of terrorism for several years and as
"sister-democracies" they must unite to combat this menace.

The conference, organised by the Manipal Academy of Higher Education in
association with the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs,Washington
DC, was attended by a number of retired intelligence officers and diplomats of
the three countries. Prominent among them were Shabtai Savit, former
director-general of the Mossad; Major General (retired) Uzi Dayan, former
director-general of the Israeli Military Intelligence; former US national
security advisor Steve Pomerantz; A K Verma, former head of the Research and
Analysis Wing, India's external intelligence agency; B Raman, anti-terrorism
expert and former senior intelligence officer; K P S Gill, former
director-general of Punjab police; Harvey J Feldmann, former US ambassador to
the UN and G Parthasarathy, former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan.

The participants expressed their concern over the efforts of a few
terrorist groups to acquire weapons of mass destruction and over the use of
such groups by certain states to achieve their strategic objectives.

During the discussion on the progress made so far in the war against
terrorism, many experts expressed their dissatisfaction over "the lack of teeth
in the UN Security Council Resolution No.1373" which did not provide for
effective punitive action against states which did not sincerely comply with
the resolution.

They also expressed the view that neither the security council nor the
Interpol would be able to deal effectively with terrorism and called for the
creation of a new international organisation for counter-terrorism.

But to begin with, the experts believed, the three countries could set up
a trilateral mechanism for counter-terrorism and if it works satisfactorily
they could associate other like-minded democracies with it.

A permanent non-governmental body of professional experts would be formed
to promote this objective.

The Israeli delegates expressed their concern over India's close
relations with Iran. They alleged that Iran has been sponsoring the Hizbullah's
acts of terrorism against Israel.

Most of the Israeli and American participants avoided any specific
mention of Pakistani state-sponsorship of terrorism against India and it was
left to the Indian experts to draw attention to the fact that pan-Islamic
jihadi terrorism originated in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region.

There were moments of embarrassment in the conference when Jairam Ramesh
of the Congress, who attended sessions as a special invitee, asked the US and
Israeli delegates whether they agreed that the Hindu fundamentalists posed a
threat to regional peace and stability as much as the Islamic fundamentalists.
To the relief of the organisers, the delegates replied in the negative.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 17 Feb 2003 14:39

An interesting article on Caste in AP and the implications on the search for equality and social justice.

[url=http://law.wustl.edu/Conferences/Equality/reddy3.html]EQUALITY AND SOCIAL JUSTICE:
RETHINKING EQUALITY IN THE GLOBAL SOCIETY[/url]

Mr. Justice B.P. Jeevan Reddy

See also

http://www.vepachedu.org/castemore.htm

"Kakatiya Dynasty (1000-1323 AD) was an indigenous power that sprang from the local people (the so-called vedic fourth class, the Sudras). Jainism was prominent during 11th century but was wiped out by Shaivism during this period. Reddy dynasty (1325-1424AD) was established by Kammas, Velamas, and Reddis, powerful non-Aryan tribes/castes. Vijayanagara empire (1336-1678 AD), Vijayanagaram city as capital, was ruled by four dynasties in succession:1) Sangama, 2) Saluva, 3) Tuluva, and 4) Aravidu dynasties. "

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 05 Mar 2003 06:46

A somewhat fresh perspective on the social divisions in India as India embarks on the 21st century

India Ascendant

Romesh Diwan ~ Feb 28, 2003

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Div » 11 Mar 2003 22:41


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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 29 Apr 2003 21:43

Court to husband: Pay dinner bill & Rs 6 lakhs

or the Strange case of Salma Sheikh

Author: Sriram Krishnan and Rohit Varier
Publication: Asian Age
Date: April 27, 2003
Salma Sheikh was thrown out of her house in Surat because she wanted a different menu for dinner on the night of July 15, 1994.

This week, a sessions court judge directed her husband, Abu Gulam Nabi Khambati, to pay for the dinner she had wanted, handed her custody of her three children and asked the husband to pay Rs 6 lakhs in compensation.

Salma stayed with her husband, who is also her second cousin, since their marriage in 1987. She has three children, two sons and a daughter. She was seven months pregnant with their third child when the divorce proceedings began. The youngest child, a son, was born after the divorce. He was born premature and is epileptic.

Salma's battle for justice took nine years.

The metropolitan magistrate, Mr N.G. Pawar, had passed an order on February 8, 2002 directing Gulam to pay Salma Rs 6 lakhs, either at one time or in instalments of Rs 30,000 every three months. Gulam was also ordered to pay her a maintenance of Rs 15,000 for the iddat. Iddat, according to Islamic law, is the period of four months and 13 days that a woman remains confined in her house after divorce or the death of her husband.

After this judgment, Gulam's advocate moved the sessions court claiming that Gulam was on a pilgrimage. The sessions judge stayed the metropolitan magistrate's order.

Gulam owns a dairy farm and deals in real estate in Gujarat. Their quarrel over the dinner menu had allegedly ended with Salma and her two children being thrown out of the house in the middle of the night. Salma said she was "assaulted and abused" by Gulam even though she was seven months pregnant.

She took her children with her to stay with an uncle who lived in the same city. However, the next day, her children Zohya and Mohammed Raiyan were taken away by Abu Gulam. All subsequent attempts by her relatives to bring the couple together failed.

Salma said, "After the episode, I returned to Mumbai. My relatives tried to pacify Gulam again but he declared talaaq in front of a large audience, in my absence." Salma was Gulam's second wife. He had divorced his first wife to marry her.

Salma then approached the government women's cell in Mumbai. Through Ms Gopika and Ms Nahida Sheikh of the cell, she contacted her husband to resolve the dispute. She filed a petition in November 1994. A judge passed an order allowing her to meet her children every vacation and allowing the minor child, Saif, to remain in her custody. The order also directed the father to pay Rs 1,000 as maintenance for Saif, but she was not allowed to see her elder children. Salma then approached the metropolitan magistrate.this is a definite improvement over the Shah Banu case

Salma now stays with her parents and brothers in Mazgaon and works in a hotel in Byculla. She said she was fortunate to be from a well-to-do family but fears what the future might hold for her. Abu Gulam has married for the third time, she said.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 11 May 2003 20:23

And i thought Caste was a Hindu phenomenon.

Matrimonials


One can identify references to Caste, Siddiqui, ansari, Khan, Syed (??), Qureshi
in addition to Sunni, Shia

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 12 May 2003 10:02

Paradox of Indian minority

Prafull Goradia

The goings on regarding the Ram Janmabhoomi illustrate the paradox of the Indian minority. The proponents of the Babri Masjid have consistently claimed that the land upon which the structure stood was a property dispute which only the law courts were qualified to decide. Now when the Government of India has requested the Supreme Court to deal with the Ayodhya dispute expeditiously, the proponents have opposed the action of the GOI. This contradiction of wanting justice, and wanting to delay it, demonstrates a deeper paradox.




The minority is normally a much smaller group than the rest of the country and therefore deserves safeguards for its survival and welfare. The Jews in Europe are a classic example of a minority. Over the last several decades, the Muslims have also gained recognition as a minority in France, England, Belgium, Holland. Germany too has a significant Muslim population, which has not been recognised as citizenry.



Between waves of immigration and a notable number of blacks converting in order to register their separate identity from the white population, the US has also a fair number of this minority. As elsewhere in the West, the minority is small in number and weak in social resources. Little wonder foreign analysts apply the same benchmark in measuring the minority in India. What, however, is unfortunate is that indigenous analysts blindly use the same yardstick.



Little do they realise that neither the Parsees nor the Jews feel that they are minorities. The Christians, although more in number, have never thought of being a separate nation. There have never been Hindu-Christian riots. The only minority in India are therefore the Muslims who are neither small nor weak. They were the rulers of India for centuries. For a greater part of this period, India was looked upon by the Muslims the world over as a Dar-ul Islam. It was only with the exile of Bahadurshah in 1858 that it was declared that the country had now become a Dar-ul Harb.



Through the medieval period, the Muslims population might not have exceeded 10 per cent. Yet they were the first class citizens and the Hindus were looked upon as zimmis. In many areas for several centuries, they also had to pay jaziya in order to avert forced conversion. In contrast, in almost every country in Europe, Muslims are having to struggle to get cemeteries with eternal graves, as distinct from recyclable ones. They have to seek permission to celebrate Id-ul-Zuha with the help of animal sacrifice.



In Germany, only the mosques can be used to sacrifice animals. In Belgium, only sheep or lamb can be slaughtered and the residue like skin and bone should be packed in municipality supplied disposal bags. Often girls are not allowed to attend school with head scarves. Nor are government employees always allowed to wear a beard.



Imagine a province of France or a lander of Germany or a state of the US being made to secede in order to satisfy the Islamic propensity for separatism. India had to give up a fourth of itself in 1947 to assuage its Muslims. A whole new state was carved out so that the Muslim League led by MA Jinnah could take with them the Indian ummah. The Qaid-e-Azam was anxious to ensure that his followers did not have to suffer the expulsion of the Turks in Greece and Bulgaria soon after World War I. For a man educated in England, Jinnah probably remembered the legendry ill treatment meted out to the Moors and the Mozarabs when the Catholic royalty wanted to revive Christian rule in Spain. Edicts were issued in the 15th century whereby the Muslims were asked either to get baptised, or face expulsion or be killed.



The Muslim-wakfs, between them, are even today the largest urban land owners in India. These tracts of real estate were the fruit of expropriation during the medieval period. Article 44 of the Constitution, which directed that India should have a common civil code, has remained ignored. As Ambedkar had pointed out, the crux of the code contained Islamic laws of marriage, divorce and succession. In all other laws including criminal code, the minority was allowed choices. The criminal code of the shariat was ignored.



However, when Shah Bano was awarded an alimony under this very same law by the Supreme Court in 1986, the judgement was overturned with the help of the Muslim Women's Bill. This was not the first time the apex court was treated with contempt. The AMU was adjudged a Government institution by the Supreme Court in 1968. Soon thereafter the Congress overturned the verdict by having a law passed which made it a minority institution.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 18 May 2003 23:54

By and large I regard the news in this book as positive, in the sense that as affluence and education increases ,the birth rate among all classes is falling.

[url=http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sundayitems.asp?id=SEB20030517094137&eTitle=Bo\]http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sundayitems.asp?id=SEB20030517094137&eTitle=Bo\oks+%26+Lite rature&rLink=0[/url]

Does religion affect demography?

Nanditha Krishna

Demography and Religion in India
By Sriya Iyer
Oxford
Rs 595

Any discussion of demography in India has invariably turned towards three
determinants: education,
economic development and religion. The higher fertility and growth rates of the
Muslims, when
compared with the declining fertility and growth rates of the Hindus, have
raised the potential
threat of Muslims outnumbering Hindus. Political leaders have used this
agreement to foment communal
disharmony. However, there has been no academic or scientific study of the
causes for this
demographic differential, or the role of religion in determining population
growth in India.

Demography and Religion in India by Sriya Iyer is a major contribution to an
important and essential
area that is impeding development and population control in India. She has
approached the subject in
two ways. From a macro-demographic approach, she examines the theologies of
Islam and Hinduism, to
present their approaches to population control. Hinduism says little about
birth control; the common
blessing for newly married woman being “May you be the mother of a hundred
sons.” While abstinence
is a virtue, the surprising revelation is that a Hindu woman spends, on an
average, 53 weeks at her
parents’ home in connection with post-childbirth ‘purity and pollution’, which
would undoubtedly cut
down her fertility. On the other hand, Muslim women spend only 28 weeks.
Further, Hinduism has no
opinion for or against birth control and abortion, whereas several schools of
Islam aver that birth
control may be permitted only in restricted situations.

Thereafter, Iyer takes up a micro survey of Ramanagaram, a small town and Taluk
near Bangalore in
Karnataka, which rears silk worms and produces silk yarn for important silk
weaving centres.
Ramanagaram is not India, but the populations of Hindus, Muslims and Christians
(83.87 percent,
15.59 percent and 0.41 percent respectively) make it as representative as
possible. She has
nterviewed women from the town and five villages. As this was a demographic
survey, she selected
Hindu, Muslim and Christian families in proportion to their distribution within
the Taluk. The
literacy levels were quite high in this Taluk, with Christian women being
better educated than the
Hindus and Muslims, and all the women were employed. There was little
difference in mean age at
first marriage between the three communities, with all three below the legal
minimum age for
marriage (which is 18).

The study has established the significant and common determinants of female
fertility, including
marriage age and contraceptive use. The most important determinant was women’s
education,
particularly secondary and higher (university) education, which delayed
marriage age, increased the
opportunity costs of her time and her productivity, by exposing her to the
benefits of small
families through books and the media. This was most apparent among Muslim
women, who were the least
likely of the three communities to go to the university. Another important
determinant was the
husband’s skilled occupation, particularly among those with secondary or
university education, for
such men were busy with their careers in the early years, and, influenced by
colleagues and peers,
preferred “quality” children to quantity. Income was very significant, as women
of higher income
groups expected lower gains from marriage and therefore tended to marry later,
whereas the poor
looked upon children as insurance for their old age. The age at menarche
indicated the women’s
health and nutritional status, important for child bearing, while the marriage
age was found to be
determined by social norms and not by the law. Christian women had more
autonomy in decision-making
on family sizes, while the presence of the extended family in Muslim households
reduced fertility.

The book looks at the use of contraception. In contrast to the 1991 all-India
census figures of 42
percent for Hindus, 28 percent for Muslims and 34 percent for Christians who
use family planning,
making a total of 44 percent of the population, 53 percent of the women in
Ramanagaram replied in
the affirmative, consisting of 86 percent Christians, 57 percent Hindus and 40
percent of Muslims.
Here the author concedes the possibility of religion influencing contraceptive
use in Ramanagaram,
but the higher-than normal figures also suggest that better socio-economic
conditions can change
figures.

The study has several suggestions: that religious leaders should be targeted to
encourage adherence
to the minimum legal age; that theological positions of religion on birth
control should be
clarified; that higher education, better employment and media campaigns must be
used to influence
later marriages.

Finally, does religion affect demography? The story concludes that religion by
itself did not play
any significant role in the female marriage age in Ramanagaram. There were no
differences in
marriage age between Hindus and Muslims on account of socio-economic variables,
although there were
differences between Christians and the other two, primarily because of higher
education levels among
the Christians. However, Muslim women average one child more than Hindu women.
Interestingly, the
author suggests that there is little theological difference between Hinduism
and Islam on
demographic behaviour, except in their positions on birth control.

The Muslims of Ramanagaram are richer than Muslims elsewhere, which may explain
their demographic
closeness with the Hindus, while the higher education levels in Karnataka also
contribute to lower
fertility rates. One wonders what a similar study in a Taluk in Uttar Pradesh
or Bihar would reveal.

The book has tackled a difficult subject and approached a contemporary problem,
which has much
historical and religious baggage, scientifically.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 04 Jun 2003 20:43

Pope decries anti-conversion laws in India
[url=http://www.newsonweb.com/chennaionline/newsitemnew.asp?NEWSID=%7B745E4BC7%2D3AFD\%2D4A5C%2DAD31%2D0104BA58D3D6%7D&CATEGORYNAME=National]http://www.newsonweb.com/chennaionline/newsitemnew.asp?NEWSID=%7B745E4BC7%2D3AFD\%2D4A5C%2DAD31%2D0104BA58D3D6%7D&CATEGORYNAME=National[/url]

Pope decries anti-conversion laws in India
Search for More News
Vatican City, June 3: Pope John Paul II today decried new anti-conversion
laws in some Indian states and urged the Church in India to "courageously"
proclaim the Gospel.

"This is not an easy task, especially in areas where people experience
animosity, discrimination and even violence because of their religious
convictions or tribal affiliation," the pontiff, who met a group of Indian
bishops, said.

"These difficulties are exacerbated by the increased activity of a few
Hindu fundamentalist groups which are creating suspicion of the Church and
other religions," John Paul said.

"Unfortunately, in some regions, the State authorities have yielded to
the pressures of these extremists and have passed unjust conversion laws,
prohibiting free exercise of the natural right to religious freedom, or
withdrawing State support for those in the Scheduled Castes who have chosen
Christianity," the pontiff said.

John Paul told the Indian churchmen that despite "the grave difficulties
and suffering" caused by the crackdown, the Church in India must continue with
evangelising.

He urged them to engage in dialogue with the leaders of other religions
as well as the local and national authorities so that India will continue to
"promote and protect the basic human rights of all its citizens", including
religious freedom. (Agencies)

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Umrao » 04 Jun 2003 20:51

Pope would naturally harbor hope that Indian market would be all for himself.

Would Pope allow Hare Krishna movement to open a branch in Vatican, If I may ask his grace?

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 06 Jun 2003 19:52

Originally posted by John Umrao:
Would Pope allow Hare Krishna movement to open a branch in Vatican, If I may ask his grace?
IMO, Pope wont allow it, and so the Pope has double standards.

Vatican is frozen in 1500 AD, and we MUST NOT make it an ideal for us.

Our ideal should USA/UK etc. There, not only you can open a branch office of Hinduism or any relegion/sect, but can also place an AD in the newspaper "cash rewards to those who accept my relegion/sect".

And NO ONE from govt would bother you.

IMO, THAT should be our ideal. Not vatican, saudi etc

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rkam » 06 Jun 2003 20:11

It is remarkable how the Pope can shamelessly ask for the repeal of anti-conversion legislation in India, while in Brazil he called for state intervention against US based protestant churches who are actively converting amongst the Brazilian Roman Catholics. Interstingly the Roman Catholic Church in Brazil has decried the use of inducements by these new more aggressive churches.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 06 Jun 2003 21:01

Originally posted by Rkam:
It is remarkable how the Pope can shamelessly ask for the repeal of anti-conversion legislation in India, while in Brazil he called for state intervention against US based protestant churches who are actively converting amongst the Brazilian Roman Catholics. Interstingly the Roman Catholic Church in Brazil has decried the use of inducements by these new more aggressive churches.
Has Brazil Govt made any laws banning use of money etc in conversions?

Saudi/Pope may be defunct (IMO, they *are* defunct). But that is NOT a valid excuse for GoI making defunct laws banning inducements for conversions. Lets not justify worthless acts of Modi, Amma etc just becuase there are more worthless things in the world.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 06 Jun 2003 21:43

Lets not justify worthless acts of Modi, Amma etc just becuase there are more worthless things in the world.

who is doing this ? strawman alert

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby AshishN » 06 Jun 2003 22:07

RM:
But that is NOT a valid excuse for GoI making defunct laws banning inducements for conversions.
__________________________________________________

Banning inducements for conversions is bad? Why?
Bible says "You shall not sell God." It's there, I dont know the exact words.

*Even* considering for a moment that offering inducements for conversions is good, it goes right against the Bible. And that makes these missionaries etc salesmen.

Fine if you want to pray, bring flowers and candles, etc... but salesmanship? Its repugnant.
___________________________
Well here is one reference:
"we are not like many, peddling the word of God" (II Corinthians 2:17)
I am sure there are lots more.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Jun 2003 16:28

Rahul Mehta:
But that is NOT a valid excuse for GoI making defunct laws banning inducements for conversions.

AshishN:
Banning inducements for conversions is bad? Why?
Bible says "You shall not sell God." It's there, I dont know the exact words. *Even* considering for a moment that offering inducements for conversions is good, it goes right against the Bible. And that makes these missionaries etc salesmen. ...
If you start a seperate thread, I can show why imprison those who sell God is anti-libertarian idea and such imprisonments ONLY helps the bad guys. I can also show that the act of selling God is better for poor. But this thread is too general for having detailed specific discussions on the merits of allowing people to sell their Gods/relegion/sects.

So, if you start another thread ....

Rahul Mehta:Lets not justify worthless acts of Modi, Amma etc just becuase there are more worthless things in the world.

Kaushal : who is doing this ? strawman alert
Are you in favor or are you against Modi/Amma's acts to imprison those offer money for changing relegion?

If you support Modi/Amma's decision to imprison the money-giver, arent you justifying them?

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 07 Jun 2003 21:12

Are you in favor or are you against Modi/Amma's acts to imprison those offer money for changing religion?

No i am not. I am a libertarian (not just on Mondays, wednesdays and namaaz days). I know this causes you considerable mirth, but it is true nevertheless.

I am against offering monetary inducements for the purpose of religious conversion, but I would not pass a law against it. One should not rely primarily on the legal system to right every wrong.

I believe in strict separation of church, masjid and state, which India does not follow. There are ministers for Wakfs in almost every state. Discriminatory support for educational institutions merely because they are an institution run by other than Hindus must stop.

It is not the business of elected governments to enter into the subject of religion, much less discriminate on the basis of religious belief. They should stay away from it completely and totally without any exceptions.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby AshishN » 07 Jun 2003 21:26

If you start a seperate thread, I can show why imprison those who sell God is anti-libertarian idea and such imprisonments ONLY helps the bad guys. I can also show that the act of selling God is better for poor. But this thread is too general for having detailed specific discussions on the merits of allowing people to sell their Gods/relegion/sects.
_________________________________________________

RM:

First principles first. If first principles are OK, u go on to 2nd and 3rd and then specific and detailed discussions.

So,

First principle:

No sale of God permitted in Bible. If someone still wants to sell u God and also say he is from God, he is lying. He is reducing God to an object. An object that can be bought. A club of owners of this object can be formed. Then fought for. Ploughing, seeding, and watering the field for disharmony/religion based riots. See the lack of anything spiritual here? We are talking of God, not a can of Coke. People kill in the name of God. If they are brainwashed enough. **Nipping this brainwashing in the bud is the thing to do.**

Allowing sale of God is ***not*** :

1. sanctioned by God. Period. (an argument that stands by itself)
2. good for India. Period.

First principles preceded every debate, discussion, whatever else. If someone on the street wants to bribe you into saying "Yes, my way of life is ignorant, stupid, false, and blasphemous; only following xyz is the way to live" then you tell him to go to hell. If he persists, call the cops and get him arrested for bothering you and not stopping when told to stop.
You don't sit and debate with him.

The nature of my work requires me to spend a lot of time discussing and debating scientific stuff with colleagues. But if someone comes up with a patently false premiss and wants to argue about a theory based on that, the person is either:

1. given a strange look and politely told to shut up
2. If its Friday, and everybody is in an indulgent mood, the person is only laughed at.

Start threads and discuss non-starter issues? Sorry, can't do that. :)

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 09 Jun 2003 19:41

Rahul[b]: Are you in favor or are you against Modi/Amma's acts to imprison those offer money for changing religion?

[b]Kaushal:
No i am not. I am a libertarian (not just on Mondays, wednesdays and namaaz days). I know this causes you considerable mirth, but it is true nevertheless.
If you say that you are a libertarian, I will accept it.

I am against offering monetary inducements for the purpose of religious conversion, but I would not pass a law against it. One should not rely primarily on the legal system to right every wrong.
You say "one should not rely [b]primarily[b] on the legal system.. " (legal system = pandu, courts, prisons in my lingo). Are you impying that it is OK to rely on imprisonments SECONDARILY to stop people offering cash for conversion? Just asking, NOT assuming anything.

A true libbie, like myself, would be opposed to relying on legal system (legal system = pandu, courts and prisons) AT ALL, neighter primarirly nore secondarily nor tertiarily, to stop anyone from offering cash for conversions.

I believe in strict separation of church, masjid and state, which India does not follow. There are ministers for Wakfs in almost every state. Discriminatory support for educational institutions merely because they are an institution run by other than Hindus must stop.
Agree. ALL fundings/tax-breaks to ANY school which offers ANY relegious teachings should be blocked.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 09 Jun 2003 23:38

A true libbie, like myself, would be opposed to relying on legal system (legal system = pandu, courts and prisons) AT ALL, neighter primarirly nore secondarily nor tertiarily, to stop anyone from offering cash for conversions.

You did not choose to read what I wrote. the words i used were 'One should not rely primarily on the legal system to right every wrong'. The legal system should be the last resort not the first one. But there is no country in the Universe without a legal system. So, a legal system is unavoidable. Have the minimum set of laws necessary and enforce them strictly. I do not favor laws against religious conversion. If there is undue coercion it should be covered under existing statutes. There are too many laws on the statute books in India, many of them should be retired since they date to British days.

Bottom line - no need for laws on religious conversion.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 15 Jun 2003 06:50

Pope - He is upset. Understandably
By Gurumurthy

Have empathy. The Pope has genuine problems. The Papacy was born to
convert the world to the only true religion, Christianity. This Pope
merely continues this 2000 year tradition to cleanse the world
off `false faiths'. Turn it exclusively Christian. He did not start
the war to exterminate `false faiths'. He just inherited it; has no
authority to change it.

War Plans to Christianise the world commenced after, not in Jesus'
lifetime. The number of war plans to accomplish this was just 250 in
1900. It rose to 510 in 1970; became 1500 in 2000; topped 1590 in
2002 -- an increase of 300% in the present Pope's regime. This is
projected to double to 3000 in 2025.

The plans are backed by meticulous research costing billions to
stratify global societies, to trap them into the only true faith.
Like business plans they look at the position now with a 25 year
projection. The present 35500 Christian denominations will go up to
63000; the 35.54 lakh congregations will touch 53.50 lakhs; the 4100
mission sending agencies will rise to 6000; the 56.33 lakh-strong
missionary workers, larger than the US and European army put
together, will top 65.50 lakh. The income of the church and para-
church of over $300 billions, that is Rs 13,71,000 crores, equal to
68% of India's GDP, is projected to reach $870 billions.
Evangelical literature distributed is in billions. Presently the
tally is 4.7 billion scriptures, 187 million Bibles, 5 million
booklets, 120000 Mission literatures, 38000 periodicals and 18000
articles. By 2025 this will increase to 8 billion scriptures, 430
million Bibles, 12 million booklets, 195000 Mission literatures,
100000 periodicals, and 80000 articles. The bible density of 1460
millions will increase to 2280 millions. The Church-run Radio and TV
stations of 4050 will increase to 5400. This largest information and
communication network in the world will become even larger.
Even as he should be proud of this huge conquering apparatus, the
Pope has his concerns too. Like the rising cost of head hunting for
God. Today it costs $349,000, hold your breath, Rs 1.55 crores, to
turn a pagan to Christianity. This too will increase to $650,000,
that is, again hold your breath, Rs 3.05 crores per head, repeat per
head, by 2025! Good news for chartered accountants. The Church seems
to be paying more fee to them than a hundred MNCs put together. It
pays them over $810 millions, that is, Rs 3700 crores as audit fee.
Yet, the Pope is concerned that this does not stop embezzlement in
churches. The present theft of $16 billions, that is, Rs 75 200
crores, by Christian faithfuls, too is projected reach $65 billions,
that is, Rs.2820000 crores, by 2025. Thus the Church runs an
enterprise larger than most MNCs, with all the problems that go with
commerce. All troubles to bring the entire humanity under the only
true faith. Just look at the International Bulletin of Missionary
Research [IBMR January 2002 issue] for these and more details of the
ongoing Christian conquest.

Then when Jayalalitha and Narendra Modi pass laws impeding this
global conversion enterprise, will he not be upset? If more
governments do that, what will the Pope do with the huge head
hunting infrastructure created for the last 2000 years? What will
the huge army do? Will he retrench them? Even as 6 lakhs retire
every year, more are getting recruited. The church is perhaps the
largest employer in the world. What is the alternative job for the
specialists in head hunting for the only true Faith? Genuine
concerns. Isn't it?

And worse still. What Jaya and Modi have done threatens to stop the
head hunting business for God in the most cost effective areas of
the world. The IBMR finds that to convert a heathen into a
Christian, it costs 700 times more, repeat 700 times more, in rich
countries as compared to nations like India! The Pope knows how
cheap our market is for his harvest. Perhaps, he will not mind if
the high-cost US, not the low cost Indian states, pass such a law.
In India he can count heads for God at 1/700 of the cost he has to
pay in the US. When Jaya and Modi pass laws to stop low cost head
hunting will the Pope not be upset? He will be and he is,
understandably.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0603/113.html

Date: June 10, 2003
URL: http://www.gurumurthy.net/display.asp?id=143

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 15 Jun 2003 10:59

Singing of national anthem ‘forbidden’
Author: Luv Puri
Publication: The Hindu
Date: June 12, 2003
URL: http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/06/12/stories/2003061204451200.htm
After issuing diktats on a "dress code" and imposing a number of socio-economic curbs on women, militants have now "banned" the singing of the national anthem in educational institutions.

Fearing ``punishment'' from militants, Government and private institutions in some remote militancy-affected areas of the State, particularly Jammu region, have stopped singing the anthem.

Educational institutions in the remote areas have often been a target of militants. Several teachers have been killed over the years. Lately, militants through posters and directly, have asked government and private schools in Poonch, Rajouri, Doda and some parts of Udhampur districts to dispense with the use of the national anthem.

The Lashkar-e-Taiba had given the "ban order" in Poonch district, while in Doda, the Hizb-ul Mujahideen had forbidden the same sometime back. In the interior areas of Rajouri district such as Dharhal, where the `burqa' controversy started, a ban was imposed on the singing by the Jaish-e-Mohammad. Educational institutions in the upper areas of Udhampur such as Mahore, Gool and Arnas were also afraid to sing the national anthem after the morning prayers, due to the militant threats.

The only schools still singing the anthem every morning are those belonging to the Army and paramilitary forces in Rajouri, Poonch, Doda and Udhampur districts.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 15 Jun 2003 11:54

Dont have URL

Only Sanskrit scholars be appointed as VC, says UGC panel

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The UGC sub-committee, which was constituted to
look into the functioning of the Sree Sankaracharya University of
Sanskrit at Kalady, has recommended that only Sanskrit scholars should
be appointed as the Vice-Chancellor of the university.

The committee submitted its report to the UGC in Delhi the other day.

The UGC has not yet approved the Sanskrit University. It has also not
granted any financial aid to the university as there were a number of
complaints regarding its functioning. The UGC had appointed the
sub-committee to look into these complaints and controversies
surrounding the university.

The report has also recommended that only students with basic
knowledge in Sanskrit be admitted to the courses in the university.
sort of like you need to know calculus in order to be an engineer

Noted historian Dr.K.N.Panickar will have to quit the post of
Vice-Chancellor of the University if the UGC accepts the sub-committee
report.
Good riddance

Further, the statute of the university will have to be amended to give
admissions only to students with a background in Sanskrit.

It may be recalled that the appointment of Panickar, a fellow
traveller of the Left, during the tenure of the last LDF Government
had created a controversy.

The frontal organisations of the Sangh Parivar had opposed the
appointment of Panickar on the ground that he had no knowledge of
Sanskrit. They had also alleged that Panickar, a Marxist historian,
did not have any respect for the culture represented by Sanskrit.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Vijnan » 15 Jun 2003 12:24

Clear case of Hindu facism .. I mean insisting that VC's of a Sanskrit University know Sanskrit .. why the hell is that neccessary?


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