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India and the Social Sciences

Kaushal
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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 21 Jun 2003 19:18

I thought this was a great and inspired post by muddur in the locked Brahmana thread.I trust everybody has a chance to read it.

"I would like to add my last few words before I part my ways with this thread, because I know that the discussion on religion / caste can go to any length with no ending. I also know that some people who talk about the 'Vivaka' will never learn in time. I have made my points in the interests of the nation and the Indian community as a whole. But if some one wants to pursue gains using personal zeal and hatredness on others caste or religion, I can't help much.

Guys, do you know how many times India was ATTACKED by the foreign invaders ? And do you know the main weakness of Indians, that made the foreign invaders rule India for over more than thousand years ? The main reason for our defeat to the foreign invaders has been our 'infighting' over petty issues, like the ones raised here. CASTE and religion have been India's major weaknesses and have worked against Indian interests, for over many centuries. Caste and religion have been the major reasons for our infighting.

Many problems revolving around the mandir and Masjid have ruined our life, and destroyed our nation and have made us fight among ourselves. I don't like any more 'Mandir or Masjid' to be India's problems anymore, but its all my opinion. I don't like those people instigating more issues revolving the 'Mandir and Masjid or a church', revolving around any caste or religion.

Choose your faith and follow it. Don't make it an issue, to disturb Indian lifestyle, the social harmony. If you have to fight the issues, you have plenty of issues in and around our own neighbourhood. Look at our core enemies and fight them. This can unite Indians. Look and fight for the causes which can unite the Indians and not divide them. I can assure that you will see that there are plenty of issues that we as Indians need to address together, and they have to get higher priorities. Learn to work together for the common causes, that will help unite Indians. This way you will be serving the nation and I can assure that this way, the differences among Indians will gradually disappear. Be united to fight causes like THIS , and I can assure you that the differences among Indians belonging to any caste religion or faith will gradually disappear. Prove me wrong, if you guys think that, I am wrong thinking so.

Don't look at India's future like a 'KOOPA MANDOOKAS'. Many have seen the world. Learn and realize where India stands in the international community. Help India to grow strong, rather than persuing personal, religious, or caste based zeals filled with hate and anger. Shred the mean ideas about any castes or religion and work towards creating the true equality and unity within the Indian culture. Help to nurture the society with out disturbing it.

Only a UNITED India can withstand the external forces that have surrounded India, which aim to destroy our lifestyle, culture and loot our wealth. Ignore caste / religion. Look beyond the 'Prasadam' you get in one temple. You will find better food, better life, better peace. Once you change, the generations can change. Once you learn what's good for India, spread it to the next generation. The problems related to caste and religion can't be resolved in one day, by complaining to the UNO or to the local courts. It might take a few generations, but with us learning, the next generation always improves. If you act in haste, you will end up disturbing the national peace and harmony, and I can assure that you guys can't achieve anything more.

Personally, I am fed up with the religious problems India has faced. I am disgusted to know how even the educated people care for the way they get the 'Prasadam'. Remember what the likes of Basavanna and Nehru have said. 'Work is Worship'. Have faith in it. Temples are needed, but what's the use of temples or mosques or the Churches if it can destroy the very own social harmony ?

You guys live in a free India. You have choices, make sure your choice is the best and doesn't harm others feelings, traditionss or sanctities of the places that the people have maintained for over centuries. Make sure others rights are not abridged in order to establish your rights. You got better choices.

IMO, religion should be taken in the form of the salt, that you mix with your daily lunch. Just enough to keep you healthy and give you the good taste of food. Too much or too little or nthing can screw your health and your life gradually. You guys don't eat salt as a whole course of meal do you ? If you guys think that getting the 'Prasadam' the Brahmin way in Mantralaya or some other temple, is more IMPORTANT than understanding the other cultures and religions along with maintaining the national harmony, then I wish you guys 'good luck' ! To me I have better things to do and learn.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 21 Jun 2003 21:33

Originally posted by Muddur:
Guys, do you know how many times India was ATTACKED by the foreign invaders ? And do you know the main weakness of Indians, that made the foreign invaders rule India for over more than thousand years ? The main reason for our defeat to the foreign invaders has been our 'infighting' over petty issues, like the ones raised here.
There was infighting amongst invaders as well. eg Shia vas Sunni infightings; Brits vs French infightings etc. Despite this infightings the invaders were able to defeat the then Indian kings.

CASTE and religion have been India's major weaknesses and have worked against Indian interests, for over many centuries. Caste and religion have been the major reasons for our infighting.
Around 700 AD, there were no infightings on CASTE issue. The kings and preists had pretty much suppressed every other caste, and there so there was no infighting. So reason why Indian kings lost to invaders in 700 AD was CASTE system, but NOT caste-infighting.

Personally, I am fed up with the religious problems India has faced. I am disgusted to know how even the educated people care for the way they get the 'Prasadam'. Remember what the likes of Basavanna and Nehru have said. 'Work is Worship'. Have faith in it. Temples are needed, but what's the use of temples or mosques or the Churches if it can destroy the very own social harmony ?
As of today, the social etc harmony had been disrupted becuase our courts are NOYT punishing criminals, and there is NO OTHER REASON. You are unnecessaily blaming relegion, caste etc. They may have been problem in the past, but as of today, they are NOT cuasing any problem at all.

----- another issue [sanskrit-sector]--------

Originally posted by vijnan_anand:
Clear case of Hindu facism .. I mean insisting that VC's of a Sanskrit University know Sanskrit .. why the hell is that neccessary?
I wont equate it with fascism, but surely spending GoI-money on Sanskrit is an utter waste. Sanskrit-sector MUST be left to private=market forces. Fascim of not, UGC-babus are certainly hopeless individuals.

Now should VC or cheif administrator or whatever of a Sanskrit school be an expert in Sanskrit? Well, I would leave it to private=market forces to decide. There have been cases where non-journalists have been very successful newspaper administrators and many PRIVATE newspapers in US employ MBA-type administrators who have minimal background in journalism. But what is note worthy, is that US-Gov has left this issue to PRIVATE forces, and US-Gov does NOT subsidize newspaper-sector. Same way, Sanskrit-sector should be left to PRIVATE hands.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 21 Jun 2003 21:44

Originally posted by Kaushal

was actually originally posted by muddur in the locked (Brahmana)thread.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 21 Jun 2003 22:11

But what is note worthy, is that US-Gov has left this issue to PRIVATE forces, and US-Gov does NOT subsidize newspaper-sector. Same way, Sanskrit-sector should be left to PRIVATE hands.

Education (including the study of languages) is definitely not in private hands in the USA.K-12 Grade is for the most part in Government hands, supported by property taxes. Even University education is heavily dominated by the State Governments (Land Grant act). The University of California (8 campuses) is one of the largest state supported systems in the world. BTW , the UC system does subsidize study of languages including Sanskrit.

This does not take away from your argument about state subsidies, but your example is a false one and is in fact a counter example and does not support your thesis.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 22 Jun 2003 14:36

Originally posted by Kaushal:
Education (including the study of languages) is definitely not in private hands in the USA.K-12 Grade is for the most part in Government hands, supported by property taxes. Even University education is heavily dominated by the State Governments (Land Grant act). ...
My analogy was wrt newspaper-sector. I never saiud USG doesnt subsidize education. It does, and it is a WRONG policy.

Nevetheless USGov keeps itself away from history/heritage issues. In India, Sanskrit Univ are not funded by Govt to fulfil citizenry's desire/demand to learn Sansrkit (there is no such demand that I see), but funded with the hope of creating a huge demand for Sanskrit education, and also with a hope that funding Sanskrit education will have dramatic impact on "National Character" etc etc.

And higher education in US is subsdizied NOT with goal of raising "national pride" and "pride in history/heritage", building national character etc etc .

USGov may be subsidizing collage education, but that is done AFTER basic necessities like providing fast/fair police_stations/courts etc have been met. In India, these BASIC necessities are not yet met, and so there is no good reason in subsidizing Sanskrit-sector, history-sector etc.

This does not take away from your argument about state subsidies, but your example is a false one and is in fact a counter example and does not support your thesis.
I had given newspaper example. USG does not subsidize newspapers, and same way we should NOT subsidize sanskrit-sector and leave it to private=market forces. I read somewhere that sanskrit is alive and kicking, but not a dead language. If so, it should be able to support itself without any GoI-money.

BTW, I thought you are 24*365.25 libertarian and would support my demand of desubsidizing sanskrit-sector.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby member_5535 » 22 Jun 2003 19:28

CASTE is portugese word. India does not have a CASTE system. THe word Jati would more accurately translate to ethnic group.

...And you cannot abolish ethnic groups, it's like saying racism is bad so we shouldn't have any races.

Looking at other examples like the Arab world (200 million arabs divided among many nations), or the Balkans where even a few million can't get along. Even the tribal warfare of Africa, (a continent of 700 million people living among dozens of countries).
THe European Union of 300 million people can't get their act together and form a common country.

To study a true caste system, one must look at Latin America and countries such as Brazil. The various racial hypbrids over there (Mestizo, mulatoo etc..) are the real castes as defined by the Portugese.

A 1000 million people will have ethnic differences, no way to avoid that. Discrimination based on ethnicity should be stopped, but you cannot just created one large ethnic group of 1 Billion people.

This constant assault on India over "Caste" and somehow associating that with "Hinduism" (When Caste is no more than Ethnicity, Which is found everywhere) is little more than propaganda.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 22 Jun 2003 20:08

I had given newspaper example. USG does not subsidize newspapers, and same way we should NOT subsidize sanskrit-sector and leave it to private=market forces. I read somewhere that sanskrit is alive and kicking, but not a dead language. If so, it should be able to support itself without any GoI-money.

BTW, I thought you are 24*365.25 libertarian and would support my demand of desubsidizing sanskrit-sector.


Your example of comparing newspapers to sanskrit doesnt make sense. Learning sanskrit forms part of education and it should be compared to education in the US, which is subsidized.

In the perfect 'libertarian' world there should be very little government- even in defense, law and order, education. But we do not live in a perfect world. Until then I have to put up with some government role in selected sectors. I do not support a government role in religion, business and many other fields of activity which both the US and Indian Government indulge in. Lets get rid of these first before we talk about a government role in education, defense, and law and order.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 22 Jun 2003 20:10

Originally posted by dashratha:
CASTE is portugese word. India does not have a CASTE system. THe word Jati would more accurately translate to ethnic group. ....... This constant assault on India over "Caste" and somehow associating that with "Hinduism" (When Caste is no more than Ethnicity, Which is found everywhere) is little more than propaganda.
What I mean by caste system is whatever using which members of one group of individuals, commonly called as higher castes, used to opine and establish that members of another group of individuals cant be allowed to study subjects like Maths, logic, law, weapon use; cant be allowed to become officers in kings government; cant be allowed to serve in military; cant be allowed to own a temple (which was a handsome source of income in those days) etc.

This rules, that were made by intellectuals of those days, be named as jaati-system or caste-system, made Indian society quite weak. The deep semantics of words like caste and jaati are beyond a hard core rustic like myself.

Of course, things have changed for better thanks ONLY to the procedure of election as established by British in 1934 and Universal Suffrage which came due to efforts of Ambedkar in 1947. Today, almost all (not all) positions are open to everyone.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby A_Gupta » 22 Jun 2003 20:17

Rahul Mehta, things have certainly become better in India, but also the same way in the West. The US has had democracy, elections, trial by jury for 200+ years, but women got the vote only about 10-15 years before they did so in India. (BTW, the British absolutely did not introduce universal suffrage to India).
<P>
If you want to do comparisons, compare India's society to contemporaneous societies - today to today, 100 years ago to 100 years ago, 300 years ago to 300 years ago, etc. You seem to be making the common mistake of comparing India of all eras to an idealized Western system (which doesn't exist, by the way).
<P>
One more thing, the US founding fathers considered provision of a common education to all to be essential to democracy, and so government funding of education is here to stay. That education included Bible education, dead languages like Latin and ancient Greek, etc., so the (local) governments were "subsidising" all kinds of things that they shouldn't be according to your ideas.
<P>
-Arun

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby A_Gupta » 22 Jun 2003 20:18

Rahul Mehta, things have certainly become better in India, but also the same way in the West. The US has had democracy, elections, trial by jury for 200+ years, but women got the vote only about 10-15 years before they did so in India. (BTW, the British absolutely did not introduce universal suffrage to India).
<P>
If you want to do comparisons, compare India's society to contemporaneous societies - today to today, 100 years ago to 100 years ago, 300 years ago to 300 years ago, etc. You seem to be making the common mistake of comparing India of all eras to an idealized Western system (which doesn't exist, by the way).
<P>
One more thing, the US founding fathers considered provision of a common education to all to be essential to democracy, and so government funding of education is here to stay. So the (local) governments were "subsidising" all kinds of things that they shouldn't be according to your ideas.
<P>
-Arun

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 22 Jun 2003 20:30

Originally posted by Kaushal:
Your example of comparing newspapers to sanskrit doesnt make sense.
I gave example of newspaper-sector only to show how Govt should learn to ignore.

Learning sanskrit forms part of education and it should be compared to education in the US, which is subsidized.
US has NOT subsidized study of any language to promote patriotism, national pride etc. Also subsidy is partial; the students bear much of the costs. The sanskirt university in India are whole-sole govt enterprise. The fee obtained from students in this Sanskrit univs is nearly zero and almost all expenses are covered by GoI.

Also, US started this funfare AFTER basic necessities like fast/fair police_stations/courts were provided. Whereas in India, tons of funds are needed for BASIC items like police_stations/courts. So in this context, even if US subsidises language-sector, we MUST NOT.

In the perfect 'libertarian' world there should be very little government- even in defense, law and order, education. But we do not live in a perfect world.
And these very misappropriations of funds are the reasons why we do not live in perfect country. Each neta/babu spends=blows_away money in his pet dreams, be sanskrit-univ or history-laboratory or whatever, and no money is left for BASIC items like police stations, courts, weapon education etc. No wonder why crimes shoot up and country becomes imperfect.

Until then I have to put up with some government role in selected sectors.
So looks like until GoI continues some bad policies, you are a part time libertarian. :)

I do not support a government role in religion, business and many other fields of activity which both the US and Indian Government indulge in. Lets get rid of these first before we talk about a government role in education, defense, and law and order.
The people who like GoI funding of releigion etc (like Haj subsidy) will say "lets get rid of GoI support to History-sector and Sanskrit-sector FIRST and then talk about removing Haj subsidies. I disagree with BOTH "he first, me later" arguments. ALL such wasteful expenditures, be subsisidy to history-univ or subsidy to sanskrit-laboratory or subsidy to Haj Tours and Travel Pvt Ltd should end NOW.

I see no reason why A should be first and B should be second. All this naach-gaanaa can end in one go.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 22 Jun 2003 21:40

US has NOT subsidized study of any language to promote patriotism, national pride etc. Also subsidy is partial;

How do you know ?

the students bear much of the costs. The sanskirt university in India are whole-sole govt enterprise. The fee obtained from students in this Sanskrit univs is nearly zero and almost all expenses are covered by GoI.

The fee in state supported UNiversities is largely subsidized. My son paid only 20% of the actual cost of his University of California education. The subsidy is substantial.

The UC, Berkeley campus has a very extensive South Asian Languages program which is subsidized like every other program on campus. One can learn Sanskrit, Tamil maybe even Gujarati for a very moderate fee.

In the lower level colleges and universities the subsidy is even larger. In Junior colleges the subsidy is almost total . You hardly have to pay anything.

The K-12 grade schools are completely free. They are funded out of property taxes. We didnt have to pay a penny for schooling.

You are tilting at windmills - looking for arguments where there are none.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 22 Jun 2003 22:14

.... The fee in state supported UNiversities is largely subsidized. My son paid only 20% of the actual cost of his University of California education. The subsidy is substantial.
Do all students pay only 20% of the cost? Some students might be getting more scholarship based on their performance.

Is CalState paying 3-4-5 times the combined fee paid by all students?

The UC, Berkeley campus has a very extensive South Asian Languages program which is subsidized like every other program on campus. One can learn Sanskrit, Tamil maybe even Gujarati for a very moderate fee. ... You are tilting at windmills - looking for arguments where there are none.
No. The REAL crux of my argument is --- CalState is doing all this funfare AFTER CalState had provided fast/fair police_station/courts to its citizens. Has Indian state fulfilled the job of providing fast/fair police_stations/courts? These expenditure are BAD under any circumstances, but in India where such funfares are carried out despite the fact that BASIC sectors are starving show total backruptcy of policy-making.

The K-12 grade schools are completely free. They are funded out of property taxes. We didnt have to pay a penny for schooling.
I have nothing against subsidisation upto class-XII for CERTAIN subjects (Maths, Sci, basic English, basic Hindi, basic Local lang, weapon use, LAW education, NOT history, NOT sanskrit). Thats not the real issue here. It does NOT violate Libbism, as such education, like say law education, REDUCE administratuon cost.

The key issue is --- GoI does NOT have money to create more police stations and courts. In such cases, is there any reason to fund sanskrit, history, literature, IIMs/JNU/IITs (IIT minus depts used for defence research if any), Haj travels etc.

IMO, all these instututes/projects should be desubsidised and money should poured to fund more essential tasks like building police stations, courts, prisons, land/person records etc.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Kaushal » 22 Jun 2003 23:12

Do all students pay only 20% of the cost? Some students might be getting more scholarship based on their performance.

Yes, all students get this automatically on admission. Those who get scholarships pay nothing (depending on the scholarship)

Is CalState paying 3-4-5 times the combined fee paid by all students?

Yes again. CalState (approximately 20 campuses) is different from UC system (8 campuses). Cal State is even more subsidized than UC which is inspite of the subsidy, getting out of reach for poor people (yes there are poor people in the US)

The state support to education is extensive and forms a major part of the state budget.

Education is one of the major responsibilities of state governments in the US.

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Re: India and the Social Sciences

Postby Rahul Mehta » 27 Jun 2003 09:12

Originally posted by Arun_Gupta:
Rahul Mehta, things have certainly become better in India, but also the same way in the West. The US has had democracy, elections, trial by jury for 200+ years, but women got the vote only about 10-15 years before they did so in India. (BTW, the British absolutely did not introduce universal suffrage to India).
And why did democracy came so late in India? Why didnt democracy which came in UK in 1300 (taking Jury System was start of democracy in UK) didnt come in India is 1300AD? or even 1700 AD?

Situation of women in US/UK was better than in India even before women got right to vote. For that matter Swiss gave right to vote to women much after India did. Nevetheless women's situation was far better.

British introduced election-procedure in 1934 and it was WITHOUT universal suffarge. One reason was that it was FIRST attempt and another was that a large section of India elite, including educated ones like lawyers, and many Congress members were also opposed to universal suffrage. As for Indian elites, most Indian princeley states did NOT introduce election-procedure even after invders=Brits did. In 1936, people in Rajkot which was ruled by INDIAN King and NOT directly by Brirts, held a demonstration with demand of conducting election. How did the kig respond? He were violently crushed them. So lets give credit to Brits for at least introdusing elections rather than cursing them for not giving UnivSuff.

Also, US's founding fathers and founding elite NEVER decreased democraticness from what Brits had left. Whereas India's founding fathers/elite DECREASED democraticness from where Brits had left by abolishing Jury System. I hope the fact Indian neta/babu/jufges/intellectuals/elite etc abolished Jury System in India late 1950s and in early 1970s will FULLY convince everyone and anyone that India's Nbjprie are OPPOSED to democratic-form of government. No further proof is required.

You seem to be making the common mistake of comparing India of all eras to an idealized Western system (which doesn't exist, by the way).
We cant compare India of 2000 with UK of 1750. We can only compare India of 1750 with UK of 1750 India of 2000 with UK of 2000.

One more thing, the US founding fathers considered provision of a common education to all to be essential to democracy, and so government funding of education is here to stay. That education included Bible education, dead languages like Latin and ancient Greek, etc., so the (local) governments were "subsidising" all kinds of things that they shouldn't be according to your ideas.
Word education is too vague. I have NOTHING against subsidising education of weapon-us, law, basic Maths, basic english/hindi/local_lang, basic sciences etc as they improve efficiency of administration and reduce its cost. The question is about taxing people so that a sanskrit/hindi/english profressor can be paid Rs 15000/- per month plus benefits. That too given the fact BASIC amenities like courts/police/prisons are highly underfunded. It is THIS expenditure(=waste) I am whining about.

If US is doing it is bad for US. And US is doing AFTER basic amenities like courts/police/prisons are well funded, fast and fair. Spending money on luxeries and letting basic_amenity-sector starve is unwise idea. IMO.

-Rahul Mehta

-Arun[/QB][/QUOTE]


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