Histories of Cities in India

ratnendrap
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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby ratnendrap » 24 May 2003 18:45

More on Multan:
http://www.bartleby.com/65/mu/Multan.html
==xx==
Multan


(mltän´) (KEY) , city (1998 pop. 1,182,441), E central Pakistan, in the Punjab, near the Chenab River. It is an important road and rail junction, an agricultural center, and a market for textiles, leather goods, and other products. The city’s industries include metalworking, flour, sugar, and oil milling, and the manufacture of textiles, fertilizer, soap, and glass. Multan is also known for its handicrafts, especially pottery and enamel work. One of the Indian subcontinent’s oldest cities, Multan derives its name from an idol in the temple of the sun god, a shrine of the pre-Muslim period. The city was conquered (c.326 B.C.) by Alexander the Great, visited (A.D. 641) by the Chinese Buddhist scholar Hsüan-tsang, taken (8th cent.) by the Arabs, and captured by Muslim Turkish conqueror Mahmud of Ghazna in 1005 and by Timur in 1398. In the 16th and 17th cent., Multan enjoyed peace under the early Mughal emperors. In 1818 the city was seized by Ranjit Singh, leader of the Sikhs. The British held it from 1848 until Pakistan achieved independence in 1947. Landmarks include an old fort containing the 14th-century tombs of two Muslim saints.
==xx==

Can anyone confirm/deny that Multan was associated with Narsimha avatar of Vishnu (in which he kill Hiranykashyap to save Prahalad)?

Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey

ratnendrap
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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby ratnendrap » 24 May 2003 18:46

What is pre-islamic name of Punjab? Sapta Sindu is very ancinent. Anything in between?
Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby A Bhushan » 24 May 2003 20:21

At the time of 16 Mahajanpads (After Guptas). I think Kuru + Matsya were present day Punjab + Haryana .

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby Kumar » 24 May 2003 20:33

Panchanada pradesh (land of five rivers)is another name.

16 Mahajanapadas were there during the time of Buddha. Much before the Guptas and even earlier than Mauryas.

ratnendrap
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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby ratnendrap » 24 May 2003 20:57

Let me share the name Haryana is derived.

Harayana = Hari + Aranya
Aranya in sanskrit means a Forest or Garden. Thus
Haryan means the Forest or Garden of Hari (the lord Krishna).

Some ther names of places using Aranya are:

Champaran (Bihar)
Namisharanya (UP).

Also, folks is it possible to compile a list of old/historical name and map it to present names. Let me start with a few easy ones.

Anga - parts of Bihar
Magadh - parts of Bihar South of Ganges
Banga - Bengal
Avadh - parts of eastern/central UP
Koshal - Parts of madhya pradesh/south east UP
Kalinga - Orissa
Utkal - Orissa
Vidarbha - Eastern part of maharashtra/southern Madhya pradesh.
Panchaal - ?

Also, The southern nick names like Telengana, Rayalseema, Malabar, Konkan ... etc, are these just nick names or these were actually name of some state/kingdom at some point of time?

Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby A Bhushan » 24 May 2003 21:06

Originally posted by Ashok Kumar:
Panchanada pradesh (land of five rivers)is another name.

16 Mahajanapadas were there during the time of Buddha. Much before the Guptas and even earlier than Mauryas.
Ashok you are right. Mahajanapadas were 600 BC.

Ratendra,

Some of the MAP you may find here
---------------------------------
History maps of India

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby S Bajwa » 24 May 2003 21:10

One of the Indian subcontinent’s oldest cities, Multan derives its name from an idol in the temple of the sun god, a shrine of the pre-Muslim period.
Multan has been known as the city of the Surya Vanshis.

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby svinayak » 24 May 2003 22:28

Are all punjabis under suryavanshi clans?

ratnendrap
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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby ratnendrap » 24 May 2003 22:51

Originally posted by acharya:
Are all punjabis under suryavanshi clans?
This is from Paki website about the composition of Punjabi Tribe population. I am not sure how accurate
it is.
Ratnendra Pandey
==xx==
http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/punjabis.html
LEADING TRIBES OF PUNJAB AND THEIR ORIGINS

Before the advent of Islam, but after the Aryan migrations, several invasions and mass migrations of the Central Asian tribes named as the Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, Huns and Gujjars took place in the Punjab (and other parts of Pakistan). The last two tribes i.e. the Huns (White Huns/ Epthalites) and Gujjars arrived in the 5th century AD when Hinduism had revived under the Gupta Empire but had not fully succeeded in crushing the influence of Buddhism. As the Gupta Empire collapsed under the impact of Hun invasions, it caused deep consternation among Brahmins in view of their failure to eliminate Buddhism while the Gupta power supporting them in this task had disappeared. Therefore, they began to make overtures to the new arrivals who were valiant, vigorous and warlike. They were offered the rank of Kshatryas in the Hindu fold, a position only next to that of the Brahmins and confers the responsiblity of rulership.

In the course of time the leading groups of Huns were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatryas while Jats, who were the descendants of the remaining groups of Huns, occupied a lower strata of society. But the present day Jats and Rajputs also include the descendants of the previous invaders..... the Sakas and the Kushans and even of earlier races.

Todd assigns Scythian origin to the Rajputs. Scythians came to be known as Sakas in South Asia, and were absorbed in the Hindu fold as Kshatriyas. Sakas, Yavannas (Greco-Bactrians), Pallavas (Parthians) ultimately became Kshatriyas. The Huns are known to have been regarded as one of the 36 clans of Rajputs. However, except for the Huns, all others had mostly adopted Buddhism mixed with their religions (like Saka sun-worship).

Almost 60% of the population of the Punjab comprises of Rajputs and Jats and the various branches of their race such as Awans, Khokhars, Ghakkars, Khattars, Janjuas, Arains, Gujjars, etc. though the Awans, Khokhars and Khattars claim common ancestry from Qutb Shah who is said to have come from Ghazni with Mahmud Ghaznavi, scholars hold the view that they were most probably converted by Qutb Shah during Mahmud Ghaznavi's reign and were not his descendents. This tendancy of claiming foreign origin by some of the local tribes is not uncommon. Even admittedly Rajput tribes of famous ancestry such as the Khokhar, have begun to follow the example of claiming connection with the Mughal conquerors of India or the Qureshi cousins of the Prophet.

A branch of the Wattu Rajputs of the Sutlej by an affection of peculiar sanctity, have in the course of a few generations become Bodeas and now deny their Rajput and claim Qureshi origin. There is a Kharral family lately settled in Bahawalpur who have begun to affect peculiar holiness and to marry only with each other and their next step will certainly be to claim Arab descent.

However, a significant number of Punjabi tribes are indeed descended from Afghan, Turkic, Arab, Mughal and Iranian Muslim invaders/migrants. Even those who are of local origins but claim foreign Muslim ancestory, might have partial ancestory derived from them. But all in all, the foreign Muslim ancestory element among Punjabis does not exceed more than 20% of their population.

According to Thomson, Awans are a Jat race and were converted to Islam by Mahmud Ghaznavi. In several districts of the Punjab they are registered as Jats. Mr. Thomson in his Jehlum Settlement report adduces many strong reasons in support of his conclusion that the Awans are a Jat race who came from passes west of D.I.Khan. Griffin also agrees to the local Muslim origin of Awans while Cunningham holds that Janjuas and Awans are descended from Anu and calls them Anwan. Another scholar Wilson is of the view that Awans are of indigenous Hindu/Buddhist/Pagan/Animist origin. In the genealogical tree of the Nawabs of Kalabagh, who are regarded heads of the Awans, there are found several native names such as Rai, Harkaran, etc.

As regards Gujjars, the well known scholar Cunningham thinks that they are descended from Scythian (Saka) and Yue-Chi (Kushan) tribes who invaded Pakistan in the first century BC and in the first century AD respectively. Other scholars believe that they are descended from a Central Asian Turkic people called Kazars. Since the tribe migrated from Caspian Sea which is called Bahr-e-Khizar it was named Khizar, Guzar, Gurjar, Gurjara or Gujjar. The name Hazara was given to the district by these Guzara tribes. The name Gujjar, according to another version, is derived from the words 'Gau' and 'Char' meaning cattle grazers.

Though Arains claim Iranian descent, they too are generally considered of Rajput origin, but Rajputs having Scythian-Kushan-Hun origins are indeed related to Iranians. According to the Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains of sahiwal District themselves pointed out that they are Surajbansi Rajputs originally settled around Delhi. Arains of Ghaggar Valley say that they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan. Mr. Pursr writes that they are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. the Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran who was related to him.

Similarly, Ranghars and Meos are described to be of Rajput/Jat origin who were converted to Islam during the time of Qutbuddin Aibak. Kahutas are a mixed Mughal and Rajput tribe. Khattars are related to Awans and Jats.

Khokhars are sometimes returned as Jats and sometimes as Rajputs. Col. Davis notes that many of the social customs of the Khokhars of Shahpur denote Hindu origin. Eastern Punjab Khokhars themselves claim Jat-Rajput origin. Only some of the West Punjab Khokhars claim Arab origin.

Gen. Cunningham identifies the Ghakkars with Gangaridae of Dionysius and holds them to be descendents of Yueti or Tokhari Scythians (sakas).

In Pakistan, Rajput and Jat tribes are so mixed up that it is difficult to distinguish one from the other at many places and in several cases. Some of the Rajput tribes are probably of Jat origin and vice versa. In southwest Punjab the name Jat includes a most miscellaneous congries of tribes of all sorts. Its significance tends to be occupational: to denote a body of cultivators or agriculturists. Even tribes which bear well-known Rajput names are often classified as Jats in the Punjab. Anyway, the origin of both is the same as stated earlier.

Gen. Cunningham and Maj. Todd agree in considering the Jats of Indo-Scythian stock. Maj. Todd classifies Jats as one of the great Rajput tribes. They belong to one and thesame stock.... they have been, for many centuries, so blended and so intermingled into one people that it is practically impossible to distinguish them as separate wholes. At present distinction is social rather ethnic. The same tribe Rajput in one district and Jat in another according to the position in local tribes... During census many of the Jats entered, as third heading, the name of the Rajput tribe from which they claim to have sprung.

The Jats in ancient times inhabited the whole valley of the Indus down to Sind.... They now form a most numerous as well as the most important section of the agricultural population of Punjab.

Beyond the Punjab, Jats are chiefly found in Sind where they form mass of the population.

The main (Muslim) Rajput tribes of the Punjab are: Bhatti, Punwar, Chauhan, Minhas, Tiwana, Noon, Chib, Gheba, Jodhra, Janjua, Sial and Wattu etc. While the important (Muslim) Jat tribes are: Bajwa, Chatta, Cheema, Randhawa, Ghammon, Buta, Kahlon, Gil, Sehota, Taror, Waraich, Summa, Wahla, Bhutta, Malhi, Sukhera, Alpials, Dahas, Langah, Ranghar, Meo, Awan, Khokhar, Ghakkar, etc. But some of these Rajput tribes are classified are Jats and vice versa.

Punjab has had its periods of prosperity and poverty in a regular cycle. Before the arrival of Muslims, Punjab along with the other regions/provinces of present day Pakistan was leading a separate existance from that of India, and kingdoms based in its territories or in the NWFP often ruled over most of northern India. Kushan, Saka, Bactrian and Hun Kingdoms with their capitals at Peshawar, Taxila and Sialkot respectively, ruled over large parts of northern India for centuries.


==xx==

Prof Raghu
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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby Prof Raghu » 24 May 2003 23:10

I have not read through all posts in this thread, but did come across a qn by Ratnendra Pandey --

RP, Yes, as far as I know "Multan" stands for "Mula-staana-pura" -- and that is how it relates to Prahlada and the Narasimha Avatara -- the notion of Vishnu being in everything.

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby Arvind » 25 May 2003 00:03

relates to Prahlada and the Narasimha Avatara -- the notion of Vishnu being in everything.
Yes, The kUrma purANa mentions an ancient temple of nR^isiMha in mUlasthAna. The city seems to have been a major center for the worship of mitra and sUrya in the Iranian tradition. Below is the paurANic tale from the bhavishyata (chapter 139
), recollecting the same :

kR^ishNa vAsudeva, the hero of the yadus, married jAMbavati, the daughter of the bear-king jAmbavAn. Their son was the valiant sAmba. He crossed the salty sea from dwAravati and went to the banks of the river chandrabhAga. Here, he founded the city of mUlasthAna constructed temple in the honor of sUrya. No local brAhmaNa knew of the mysteries of his worship and hence could not take up priesthood at the temple. So sAmba sought
help of gauramukha, the adviser of the yadu chief, ugrasena. gauramukha asked him to go to shakadvipa and obtain a special class of priests called magAchAryas to worship sUrya. saMba said: " pray, tell me Oh brAhmaNa what are the antecedents of these worshippers of the sun. " gauramukha narrated: "The first of the brahmins amidst the shakhas was called sujihva. He founded a gotra termed the mihira gotra. He had a daughter of the name nikShubhA. sUrya was enamoured by her and impregnated her. Thus she gave birth to jarashabda who was the founding father of all the magachAryas. They are distinguished by the sacred thread called the avyanga that they wear around their waist".
saMba there upon called on kR^ishNa to send him garuDa and flying on his back he landed in shaka dvIpa. He collected the magAchAryas, brought them back to bhArata and installed them as priests of his sUrya temple.
The Idol of sUrya should be constructed thusly:
He should have a human form with a solar corona placed behind him. He should be on a chariot with the horses standing for the seven solar rays. He should hold a chakra and trishula in two arms, and lotuses in the other two. His feet should be covered by boots upto the knees. His waist should bear the avyanga.

This temple in mUlasthAna was situated in what is now the terrorist state of Pakistan. It was ravaged by early Mohammedan invaders, including the Karmathians, (refered to by Al beruni too) and finally completely demolished by Awrangzeb.

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby svinayak » 05 Jun 2003 01:38

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~poyntz/India/images/

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kashmal
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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby kashmal » 05 Jun 2003 06:28

OK... this is a worthy candidate to get into our new school books :lol: (It could have been discussed in the now extinct AIT thread, but I don't seem to remember) Excerpts:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Interview
Michael Cremo, Researcher of Ancient Archaeology and Author, Forbidden Archaeology:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

According to the news releases, they have done a radiocarbon testing on a piece of wood from the underwater site that is now yielding an age of 9,500 years which would place it near the end of the last Ice Age.

...Yes, those are the indications that are coming. There were actually two radiocarbon dates: one about 7500 years old and another about 9500 years old. The 9500 year old one seems to be the strongest one...

...Now, another American archaeologist, Richard Meadows of Harvard University, is proposing there should be an international effort here. On the surface that sounds like a good idea, but it also may be an effort of American archaeologists and others to control the project. I don't think they want to see a civilization being as old as it appears to be according to these new finds at 9500 years ago. So, I would hope the Indian archaeologists and government would be very cautious about letting outsiders in there who might have a different agenda and who might try to control what gets let out about this very important discovery. It could be quite revolutionary...

..Even if we don't know what the cultural background of the people is, if it does happen to be a city that is 9500 years old, that is older than the Sumerian civilization by several thousand years. It is older than the Egyptian, older than the Chinese. So it would radically affect our whole picture of the development of urban civilization on this planet...

Now, if it further happens that additional research is able to identify the culture of the people who lived in that city that's now underwater. If it turns out they are a Vedic people - which I think is quite probable given the location of this off the coast of India - I think that would radically change the whole picture of Indian history which has basically been written by western archaeologists...

...Since the European languages were related to the Indian language Sanskrit of the Vedas that could only mean that the European peoples had to have come out of India somehow and then gone to Europe with their languages that differentiated into Russian, English, Spanish, German and the rest of them. The European investigators didn't like that idea because it would have given the Vedic culture a position superior to their own. So, these early cities in the Indus Valley like Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro have been identified by archaeologists such as Richard Meadows and others as being non-Vedic. They think the Vedic culture came into India maybe 3500 years ago...

Is there a possibility that there could have been some sort of non-human co-habitation on the continent of India let's say 50,000 years ago that could explain all of the Vedas?

Yes. In Kashmir, the valley of Kashmir, it appears it was many years ago a lake. Now, there is an ancient Sanskrit manuscript that tells of a lake that existed in that area (does anybody know what manuscript this could be?), so that account is there in some ancient writings. Now, according to modern geological reporting, about 40,000 years ago Kashmir was indeed a lake in the valley of Kashmir in northern India. It was covered by a huge lake and it was blocked on the southern end by a little range of mountains. And at a certain point, something happened and it broke open and the lake drained out. That happened about 40,000 to 50,000 years ago. So, it is interesting that you've got this ancient historical record that talks about this lake. And if it is to be taken literally, then it means that somebody must have seen this lake as it existed 50,000 years ago and wrote about it."

Only excerpts above. Full article:
<a href="http://www.hermetics.org/cambay.html">This article on the incredibly ancient sunken city recently found off the gulf of Cambay in India was published through courtesy of the author Linda Moulton Howe of http:/www.earthfiles.com , an excellent site where this article and many others on relative topics can be found.
</a>

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby Kaushal » 05 Jun 2003 11:05

Under no circumstances should this investigation fall into the hands of people like Meadows and Witzel. They will make a complete mess of the whole thing postulating that Norwegians immigrated to India 9500 years ago.

Now, another American archaeologist, Richard Meadows of Harvard University, is proposing there should be an international effort here. On the surface that sounds like a good idea, but it also may be an effort of American archaeologists and others to control the project. I don't think they want to see a civilization being as old as it appears to be according to these new finds at 9500 years ago. So, I would hope the Indian archaeologists and government would be very cautious about letting outsiders in there who might have a different agenda and who might try to control what gets let out about this very important discovery.

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby Rudra » 05 Jun 2003 16:43

Kamarupa - modern Assam
Cooch Behar - north bengal
Pragjyotishpura - Guwahati

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2003 21:09

Thursday June 5 2003 00:00 IST

Vaishali: A magical land of peace and timelessness

IANS

VAISHALI: It's the land of a courtesan so enchanting that an emperor waged war for her; where, as the legend goes, democracy was born.

It is also the land of the Buddha, of Emperor Asoka, his greatest devotee, and, more recently, of an anti-atom bomb peace pagoda hidden from prying eyes.

This is Vaishali, once the seat of majestic kingdoms and ancient learning centers in India and today a tiny neglected and dusty hamlet, 65 km from state capital Patna.

The Buddha's presence in this magical land of yore lives on in a 38-metre-high pagoda with four large statues of him - in fibreglass and polished with gold - installed in it.

The modern day homage to the Buddha, aptly named the Vishwa Shanti Stupa or the World Peace Stupa, appears suddenly like a mirage playing hide and seek amid the mango groves in a remote corner of Vaishali.

There are barely any signboards to guide visitors. Only a dirt path leads to the tiny enclosure.

But once inside, the sight is stunning and surreal. Towering over the green trees, the white cement pagoda with its two statues of sitting lions at the entrance looks straight out of a Harry Potter adventure rather than a corner of rural Bihar, often called India's worst state.

The pagoda, completed in 1996, is a remarkably modern creation in ancient Vaishali. With a 36-metre-wide base and a 20-metre-wide dome, it was built as an Indo-Japanese project.

This monument to peace, in memory of the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was built at the initiative of Buddhist teacher Nichidatsu Fujii Guruji.

Designed by M. Ohoka of Japan, the pagoda, built with 240,000 bricks, stands rather lonely in a land where the Buddha gave his earliest teachings.

Where lived in the sixth century B.C. the courtesan Amrapali, named so because she was as delicate as a mango leaf. The emperor of Magadh (the old name of Bihar) was so much in love with her that when the king of Vaishali wouldn't let the courtesan marry him, he drove in his mighty hordes crushing Vaishali in a gory bloodbath.

But the emperor couldn't keep his ladylove. When she saw the death and destruction, she spurned him and turned to the Buddha. Thus it was that the Buddha, then preaching his message of love across India after his enlightenment, visited Vaishali several times.

Even today, the villagers believe that Amrapali's ghost walks through the fields, her anklet bells tinkling, crying for the death and destruction wrought on the land.

"It's true," insisted local Ram Avatar, wide-eyed and dressed in a ragged white, sleeveless vest and tattered pyjamas.

"She's sometimes dressed in fiery red, with golden jewels and sometimes she is in all white. She is still crying for the murder of her people."

Bihar is also where the Buddha received his enlightenment under a giant tree at Bodh Gaya.

The pagoda, however, is not Vaishali's only engagement with the Buddha.

About two kilometres from the pagoda, amid the red litchi groves, a giant sandstone pillar suddenly rears its head. It is carved in the shape of a lion head.

This 11-metre pillar was built by emperor Asoka, one of the Buddha's biggest devotees, along with a monastery of about a dozen rooms and a large tank around the sixth century.

Said guide and local village schoolteacher Krishna Kumar Sharma: "This was the first lion head pillar that Asoka built. He built many of them to carve his edicts on for passers-by to read."

The emperor would later build another pillar with three, instead of one lion head, that has remained India's national emblem.

"So, in a sense, the idea of the national emblem was born here," said Sharma.

Vaishali's tryst with democracy also dates back to Lichhavis, one of the land's rulers in the sixth century B.C.

"They were amongst the first in the world to ever experiment with divesting power to the people," said Sharma. "People were allowed to choose their local representatives, who were removed from their posts by the people if they didn't function their public duties."

Link: Vaishali

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby Kumar » 06 Jun 2003 09:36

Hauma,

That Puranic extract about Moolasthan (Multaan) was quite interesting.

magAcharyas = Magi? (The word magic is believed to be derived from magi.)

I thought Magi were from Iran region, but "shakadwipa" suggests more towards europe (shakas=scynthians).

Jarashabda is mentioned as the founding father of magAcharyas. Did Zarathustra have any connection with magi?

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Re: Histories of Cities in India

Postby Arvind » 06 Jun 2003 10:42

The magAcharyas were the Indian remnants of the shakas. From the pauraNic tale one may infer that they were concentrated around mUlasthAna and were absorbed into the older lore about the city involving sAmba.

The main lineages of the Sakas were: The Saka Tyaiya Paradraya (the far away Sakas, also called Scythians) whose kingdom lay to the north of the Black Sea and stretched out into the steppes of Ukraine. The Saka Tigra Khauda (the pointed capped Sakas) occupied the territory to the north of the Aral and Caspian Seas. The Saka Haumavarga (the soma pressing Sakas) occupied the Central Asian Steppes south east of the Aral and North West of bAhlika (Balkh) and mUjavAnt. To their East there was also a Saka lineage in Khotan and Tumushq. Additionally the North Iranian group included the Sairima (Sarmatians) who were between the Saka Tyaiya Paradraya and the Saka Tigra Khauda. Elements of the Alyani (Alans) speaking a North Iranian tongue existed in the Caucasus.

The Sakas of Western India were the Saka Haumavarga. In many ways their priesthood was recognizably similar to the brahmins allowing assimilation in India. These Sakas migrated into India after they met with a disastrous defeat in central Asia, where their King spalagadama was killed by the Huns under Motun-Tegin. Their priesthood also appear to have coopted the Zarathushtran cult after a struggle during the Achaemenid period giving rise to the Magas of Iran. They restored the polytheistic spirit of the old Aryans by incorporating their hymns, the yashts into the Avesta.

Note that the Indian sanskritize zarathuShTra as jaraShabda rather than the etymologically harituShTra, suggesting that this tale was coined well after Zarathushtra's time.


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