P V Narsimha Rao

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P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 15 May 2003 03:52

Everybody seems to have forgotten abt this man. Though I did not do profound research like otehr BRites, but I think this man does deserve a place in history for what he did in 5 years of his PMship. As per my thinking he is the catalyst for resurgent, progressive and proporous India.
Just to name a few of his steps whose fruits India is still reaping:
- Despite a congressman, first one to put a nail in coffin of Nehruvian socialist economic model; got Manmohan singh to privatise and save country from economic disaster when we were selling our storage of Gold to survive.
- Made overtures to Burma instead of keeping hypocritical moral high ground in support of democracy for our national interests:- controlling insurgency in NE and countering chinese influence. You can say the father of look-east policy.
- establishment of full diplomatic relations with israel on January 29, 1992.
- Though some can say political vendetta or black mail, started exposing scams by politicians and showed them they are not above law. In fact he opened a flood gates to expose the rotten system, we were and put fear of law in to law makers.

Despite his limitations of having a minority govt., he was a true modern Chanakya. He was even called the 'nikkerwala' under 'congress dhoti'. Ran the govt successfully and brought political stabilty, put politicians behind bars ( a novelty then), started privatisation, used pragmatic foreign policy.
Was he not a good patriot who made a difference for his country?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 15 May 2003 03:54

- establishment of full diplomatic relations between the two countries on January 29, 1992.
Between which two countries?

Despite his limitations of having a minority govt., he was a true modern Chanakya. He was even called the 'nikkerwala' under 'congress dhoti'.
What is nikkerwala?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 15 May 2003 03:58

Sorry, I edited the post there.

The answer is Israel

and nikkerwala = RSS supporter

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 15 May 2003 05:34

PVNR is underrated as a practitioner of Realist strategy. He deserves a lot of the credit for opening up the Indian economy,for elevating Indo-Israeli ties to Ambassadorial level, for setting the Indian economy on a higher growth trajectory and for recruiting Manmohan Singh as Finance Minister.

But he still buckled under to pressure from Uncle when it came to re-initiating nuclear testing.

He is the one who reputedly coined the famous indian saying '(making) no decision is a decision too'. definitely deserves a mention in the pantheon of Indian Chanakyas.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby S Bajwa » 15 May 2003 05:47

While at it.. don't forget Harshad Mehta and other scandals (defense including).

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 15 May 2003 05:54

Sandeep,unfortunately what you say is true. Which is why he will not be regarded as a great PM.

as for relations with Israel

http://www.geocities.com/siafdu/israela.html

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Neshant » 15 May 2003 06:53

Overall I felt he was good.

Hopefully the history books will be kinder to him.

I read somewhere he was an avid computer user. Maybe he is/was on BR at some point.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Abhijit » 15 May 2003 07:05

He is the one who reputedly coined the famous indian saying '(making) no decision is a decision too'. definitely deserves a mention in the pantheon of Indian Chanakyas
Kaushal, AFAIR, it was late Shri. Chandrashekhar who commented thus on PVNR's (lack of) decision-making regarding the Babri issue.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Prof Raghu » 15 May 2003 07:07

This is where my heart takes over my head.

To me, he will be remembered centuries after we are all gone -- for one single reason. It was under his regime that the symbol of the slavery of Hindus -- that horrible structure that stood at Ayodhya for more than 460 years -- was finally brought down.

That alone is sufficient for his being, in my view, the best PM that modern (post-1947) India has ever had.

No, make that the best leader India has had in centuries.

Back to more mundane things.

Oh, and he also finally killed that monster known as Nehruvian socialism, opened up India, and built the platform for what we are seeing now. Imagine what we had before him -- an Air India (or was it Indian Airlines?) flight taking tonnes of gold as collateral to London; the economy in ruins; Pakistanis running riot in Kashmir, starting in 1989 --- the list goes on.

May he live long, and history will be far kinder to Rao than his contemporaries and partymen, who treated him so ungratefully post-1996 (so what is new, right? Congress culture, yada yada).

And to think that the idiot from Italy had the temerity to deny a ticket to this great patriot in the 1998 election!

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby ramana » 15 May 2003 10:23

He is great Prime Minister of India one who held it together while it was being rent asunder.

I am looking for the memoirs of the Asst Sec of State for Near East during Reagan first term who visited India along with Robert MacFarland unannounced. In it he writes of the long discussion he had with Rao who was MEA at that time. And was impressed with the world view stated. Anyone know his name?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Guest » 15 May 2003 10:37

Mera do naya paisa.

IIRC, He started (or was inolved) in a covert operation in lotastaan. Indian Intelligence created a good network under his PMship which was later closed down under Chandrashekhar's (I think it was Gujral) PMship.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Sarma » 15 May 2003 19:12

Guys, let us not forget. In spite of intense US pressure, he kept alive and funded the Agni program and gave the go ahead for 2 tests. In fact, he laid the foundation for the Agni-II program. He had at least the guts to think of nuclear testing while most other Indian PMs chickened out. It was a good decision at that time as that gave us the knowhow to hoodwink the US satellites next time around.

In spite of his flailities, he was a great PM, the only one from South India to be at the helm for a full term.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Sridhar » 15 May 2003 19:18

Originally posted by Neshant Sajen:
I read somewhere he was an avid computer user.
He was a Mac user. Really creditable for a person of the so-called older generation.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Umrao » 15 May 2003 19:30

I am told that he was very much respected by IG and never was afraid of telling her what he thought.

Once IG visited Tirupathi and it customary for devotees to sit for couple of minutes after the darshan. Mrs. IG was on whirlwind tour of AP, she finished the darshan and was about to leave when Mr. Rao told her the custom, which she obliged very politely while her aides were in jitters.

He was supposed to be well versed in 7/8n languages including French, Spanish and Italian.

May be SG was scared of his Italian knowledge?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 15 May 2003 20:22

In spite of his flailities, he was a great PM, the only one from South India to be at the helm for a full term.
We need more of PVN Raos' from South India to lead the whole of India. Kudos to him.

Personally, my family would have qualified for barely being above poverty level when he took over India's reins. At the end of his term, we were solidly middle-middle-class. Easily affording the bare necessities of life and the werewithal to fund my own education in the US.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby ramana » 15 May 2003 20:40

GG your family story would be the best tribute to him.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 15 May 2003 21:04

Thanks for appreciating PVNR's contribution. On Babri Masjid case, ppl made jokes abt his indicisiveness, but I think it was a shrewd move as someone mentioned above, no decision is a decision too.
And of course he was quite a scholar. I think he knew abt 14 or 16 languages.
Though I think, he was the best PM we had may be after IG ( A strong leader though she did screw our country in punjab and asam). I have something knocking in back of my head. Who was the home minister in 1984? was it PV or S B chawhan? I vaguely remember that then home minister did nothing to stop the anti-sikh riots in delhi.
none-the-less, the services rendered by PV from 1991-1996 were invalueable to our country. Harshad Mehta case is nothing compared to the level of curruption prevalent at that time. And he kept on changing his version abt where he met PV. And I give that 'shrewd guy' advantage of doubt. He would not be that stupid to show his cards like that. Can anyone tell me if he was found guilty in that case?
He did buy those 3 MPs to kept his govt going. But 'Kautilya' is abt being pragmatism not abt being taking high moral stand and screwing up greater good:- " If goal is highly noble, means to reach it does not matter". This is the point Ghandhi ji was opposed; means should be good too. and see what happened to our country. I support PV's way of thinking here.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Sridhar » 15 May 2003 21:13

Ghandhi ji

I get really mad when I see his name misspelt like this. Oppose him if you want, even attack him following the fashion of the day, but at least get the spelling right. Having to see this in the BBC or Earth-e-shaster is bad enough. At least it should not be on BR.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 15 May 2003 21:23

Who was the home minister in 1984? was it PV

IIRC it was PVNR.

As for being a great PM, we will let History be the judge. As I said I give him credit for the economic recovery of India in the 90's. India has yet to achieve the same growth rate as she did in the mid 90's. It was a time of great danger for India esp. after the assassination of RG, and he brought a measure of stability(by giving India a stable government even without a majority in parliament) and a greater measure of prosperity to the country.

I wish him peace and tranquility and good health for the remainder of his life.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 15 May 2003 21:38

Originally posted by Sridhar:
[b]Ghandhi ji

I get really mad when I see his name misspelt like this. Oppose him if you want, even attack him following the fashion of the day, but at least get the spelling right. Having to see this in the BBC or Earth-e-shaster is bad enough. At least it should not be on BR.[/b]
=========================================
Sorry dude! I am used to writing in hindi. Sometimes it makes a mess in english. people spell my own name differently in english than I do. it will be ' Gandhi ji' now! Happy? Anyways as for bashing up his views; I do respect his personal strength. I guess, he might be the one with the strongest will in last century. He did what he believed to be correct. And yes, I am totally opposed to his political ideology. One has to draw a line when they need to look at things at mass level or a individual level. Just a simple example: if u meed a pakistani in US, you can be best of friends coz you see him as a individual; basic nature of humans is to be friendly. but if you see him at a mass level, he is your enemy as his country is hell-bent to destroy yours. So, depending on what part of you take over, you will treat him accordingly.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Umrao » 15 May 2003 21:41

Buta Singh was the home minister in 1984.

Not true .

Stand corrected as per this
http://www.indiancongress.org/HTM/parliment/lok_sabha/sardar.htm

1980-82 Union Minister of State, Shipping and Transport

1982 Union Minister of State, Supply and Rehabilitation (Independent Charge)

1982-83 Union Minister of State, Supply and Sports (Independent Charge)

1983-84 Union Cabinet Minister, Parliamentary Affairs, Sports and Works and Housing
1984 Re-elected to 8th Lok Sabha (5th term)

1984-85 Union Cabinet Minister, Agriculture and Rural Development

1985-86 Union Cabinet Minister, Agriculture

1986-89 Union Cabinet Minister, Home Affairs

.......

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 15 May 2003 21:45

Originally posted by Kaushal:
[b]Who was the home minister in 1984? was it PV

IIRC it was PVNR.

As for being a great PM, we will let History be the judge. As I said I give him credit for the economic recovery of India in the 90's.[/b]
Well Sir, just imagine if that economic recovery has not happened at that crucial juncture? The social unrest due to increasing unemployment, poverty etc sould have made us like indonesia. Look what is happening in Asam. Now a days youngsters do not join ULFA due to idealogy but because there is no oppurtunity for them there. No jobs, hardly any infra-structure, lots of curruption.
We tend to underestimate effects of some things coz we don't look at " what if". His policies, gave inspiration to ppl to do do something and make money. Thats how we escaped the fate of pakistan, else similar anarchy would have been here too.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 15 May 2003 22:02

I am not disagreeing with you Antim.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Bhrigu » 15 May 2003 22:41

- he was/is proficient in 15 languages both Indian and foreign. There was a news item about how he surprised a spanish delegation by speaking in perfect spanish.

- IIRC, he was considered by congress for PM giri as early as 1984 when IG died but was overrun for Rajiv to get the sympathy vote factor and to continue the gandhi family dynasty.

- I think a very active life though his pout and demeanor indicate o/w- right from the razakar's movement to the scams in 90s. his semi-autobio is a good read but was panned by critics for getting inspired from srinatha ;) ( a telugu poet of yore who specialized in shringara rasam)

- he happens to be a distant relative of mine and was of great use to us when the police-walas stop you in Hyd. :rotfl: Only problem is that his progeny are proving the adage 'pandita putrah, parama suntah' ( son of a pandit happens to be a dunce).

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Sarma » 15 May 2003 22:50

GGanesh: Really glad to know about your family. I was always thinking if the reforms were only making rich people richer.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 15 May 2003 22:53

Harish, have you attended a BR meet (if you have forgive me for my loss of memory). Consider attending one coming up (if interested see the military thread and send Rajesh your email for location)

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby venkat_r » 15 May 2003 22:57

Not only that, Most of the people expect a perfect person all the time and fail to find one every time. What needs to be looked at are the achievements by him and they indeed are many. The economic direction India got under his PMship was nothing short of a miracle.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Arvind » 15 May 2003 22:59

It was under his regime that the symbol of the slavery of Hindus -- that horrible structur
Completely agree, most memorable point of PV's rule indeed. I was in jcollege then and PVNR had graduated from the same college several years earlier :) So there was sense of admiration for him in the local setting. The best point was he knew many Indian languages both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan and thus really represented India, unlike Nehru or Rajiv.

No point singling him out for blame, for like the notable netas before him Nehru, MK Gandhi, Indira he was a mortal like those illustrious predecessors had his failings. But given the state of chaos before him with the country reeling under terrorism from north *and* south and the ignomious defeat in Lanka of the earlier age, he provide the much needed 5 year bracket of stability.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Abhijit » 15 May 2003 23:02

Harish, have you attended a BR meet
Harish has attended our Bay Area meets - look forward to see you again on 24th.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 15 May 2003 23:11

Ramana, Sarma:

I am hardly the only one that benefited. Virtually, all the top 15-20 students from my batch of SSC, all marathis, were in the same boat as us, financially speaking.

The liberatlization put just enough money in all our hands to enable us to afford the cost of postage, fees for the GRE and TOEFL (plus books), and the cost of the air-ticket to the US. All these students (including me) were offered RA's or TA's to come here. So, none of us had to face the cost of tuition-something that we could not have afforded, liberatilization or not. But what liberalization did for all of us was to give us the bare funds necessary to do all of the pre-App work and the air-ticket. I am guessing it all came up to about Rs. 45,000 back in those days.

Pre-Lib, Rs. 45,000 was an amount that exceeded the salary of even engineers. I can still remember my mom chatting with her friends about prospective grooms and sentences such as "engineer aahe to; teen hazar rupayanchan pagar aahe tyala (He is an engineer; with a salary of 3,000) were not uncommon.

Suffice to say, without the efforts of PVN R, a lot of my batch of SSC would be still gainfully employed in India as engineers, albeit at a salary of Rs. 5000.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 15 May 2003 23:21

I guess, you all can say he did a " Lal Bahadur Shastri"!! :)

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby member_201 » 15 May 2003 23:26

PV Narasimha Rao's most famous words were, "In order to exist, we must learn to co-exist."

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Bhrigu » 15 May 2003 23:35

Kaushal Garu, Abhijit (we both are the true DOOs, all others are fake):

Thanks for the invite. I was the guy with the long hair. I did attend a couple of them last year and always eagerly look forward to them, mostly cuz Ramana Garu unwinds and lets out some gems. :)

Haffun.

some more about PV:

- I think in his address to the American congress, when talking about the pressures being applied on India to sign the CTBT (?), he quoted Gandhiji and made some very wise comment about India and her civilization. I cannot recollect correctly.
- also read here on BRF that he came back from the US trip and promptly asked Kalam Saheb to go ahead with the preps for the nuke testing.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 15 May 2003 23:35

Originally posted by Abhijit_ST:
Harish, have you attended a BR meet
Harish has attended our Bay Area meets - look forward to see you again on 24th.
Off-the-topic; I am going for camping to Lake Isabella near Bakersfield over long weekend. If anyone of you is interested, you are welcome to join.

George J

Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby George J » 16 May 2003 02:18

Originally posted by GGanesh:
The liberatlization put just enough money in all our hands to enable us to afford the cost of postage, fees for the GRE and TOEFL (plus books), and the cost of the air-ticket to the US.
I am sorry I dont understand your vignette. What did liberalization have to do with finances and hence the ability to get to the US?

There have been Indians coming to study in the US the 60's. If I am not mistaken some veteran BR members came to this country in the 70's and 80's...which was pre-liberalization. Also didnt the devalution of the rupee significantly raise the cost of 'apping' to US Schools?

About PVNR:
Like many have stated before...hopefully history will be kind to his accomplishments and rational in his failings. He is the old fox of Indian paal-ticks.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Ponniyin Selvan » 16 May 2003 11:26

Surprising that there are 32 comments and none on his skill as a novelist !

I strongly recommend "The Insider" also it's a good 700 odd pages :D

As for me, I think his good points were liberalisation and appointment of Manmohan Singh (although he had little choice with India on the verge of defaulting on interest payments), sustaining the reforms and generally stable governance.

The low point is of course presiding over the crowning shame of India - the demolition of the Babri Masjid which brought India on par with the Taliban and the demolition of the Bamiyan Buddhas .. not that you can expect any different from the Tali-VHP and their Paki-aping cronies.

Apart from that, his involvement in the corruption scandals (not the Harshad Mehta thing but the MP bribery stuff) was pretty base as well.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 16 May 2003 20:56

I beg to differ, Mr Selvan.
First thing abt Babri Masjid and wrong analogy you used. Right analogy is here. Say, someone used a country-made bomb on you. You survived but a piece of nail got embedded in your body. You tried to get it removed from time to time but you did nto had enough means to do it. After some time you had enough means (money) for an operation to get it out. Will getting that rusty old poisonous piece out of your own body is "crowning shame" coz the attacker feels it should remain there as a symbol of his victory over you? How can you be a friend to such a person or pretend past is past though that thug does not even said sorry for victimizing you? How can you be a good neighbour? In this analogy the soul of india in your body.
About your analogy with bamyan buddha, what "holy shrine" was destroyed to buld it? Please do not equate victim with victimizer or put blame on victim.
You remind me of a "shair". I dont remember the exact words. But its meaning goes something like this
" Woh katl per katl karte rahe, kahi koi shikayat na hui. Ham ne bas uff ki to baavela ho gaya".

About the buying of MPs to sustain the govt. Would you sacrifice your country's greater good so that you can be seem as a highly moral person and let your coutry be damned? Shiva ji killed Ajfal Khan by deceit. does that make him any coward or less patriotic? V D savarkar instead of wasting his life in prison apolozied to Brits so that if not political, at least he be of some use to his country. Does it make him a traitor? Dude, keeping your country over you is better than keeping yourself over it. If Jinnah's doctor had told ppl that he is dying, millions of lives would have been saved. But his 'principles' though good had disasterous consequences for us and we see it even today in J&K. I will not say that PV may have thought abt the country that time. But those who were trying to pull the govt down were harming country at that juncture and buying off a few scumbags was a wise decision then. It did save our country. Didn't it? Say what wud have happened if that govt fell. The primeminister might have been jyoti basu or mulayam singh.
Sir, learn to appreciate. Indians have a problem as being over-judgemental and showing-off their high moral ground. But most of the time its sheer stupidity or hypocrisy.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 16 May 2003 21:00

am sorry I dont understand your vignette. What did liberalization have to do with finances and hence the ability to get to the US?
What was a trickle became a flood, post liberalization.

I thought the connection between liberalization and finances was self-evident. Even the cost of pre-App, postage alone was enough to deter a few people from even contemplating a career in the US. Affording Appl. fees and the cost of an air-ticket was a far cry. It would be difficult to understand the connection if you have not actually lived it. I have. I cannot say what I have said any differently. Either you get it or you dont.

George J

Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby George J » 16 May 2003 21:52

Originally posted by GGanesh:
I thought the connection between liberalization and finances was self-evident... Either you get it or you dont.
Well not everyone in that circa felt the benifits of liberalization. If you were an exporter or an employee of newly opened MNC it sure was good. If you were in government service it didnt do much for you. Hence the construct of liberalization and finances is indeed not as self-evident as you make it out to be.

Further the GRE is not the 'cheapest' of competitive entrance exams. If you had given your CAT or GATE or MBA entrances it sure would have cheaper and saved you the trouble of 'pre-apping and apping'.

I can give you examples of individuals who came from a family facing sever economic hardships, wrote his GATE got in MSc and the a PhD program. And finally got to do his post-doc in the US on the merit of his work in India. They even paid for his plane ticket and he did not spend a bundle 'apping' either.

Please note I am not dismissing your efforts and or your successes. But there are still a lot of engineers/graduates who do not have the the warewithall in POST-liberalised india to make it here. For them a Rs.5000 job is still better than nothing. Hence your vignette cannot be generalised as an outcome of liberalization.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby ramana » 16 May 2003 22:54

GJ, What is the real problem?


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