P V Narsimha Rao

AJay
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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby AJay » 16 May 2003 23:16

Originally posted by Harish:
- I think in his address to the American congress, when talking about the pressures being applied on India to sign the CTBT (?), he quoted Gandhiji.
He recounted an anecdotal story of Gandhiji, which goes
as follows.

One day a woman brought her 7 year old son who is very
fond of sweets. Because of this fodnness, the little one was not only
developing bad teeth but was also becoming very fat. Even after
repeated exhortations, the little one was recalcitrant. Since the little boy
was very resepectful of Gandhiji, the woman thought that Mahatma telling the
boy might just do the trick. After patiently listening to the woman's request
Gandhiji told her to come back a month later and only then he would tell the
boy how eating too many sweet-meats is harmful. The woman was very surprised
and asked Gandhiji why the following month, why not now?
To that Gandhiji's reply was that he himself is very
fond of sweets. He would need a month to get rid of his
own habit and only then would be able to tell the boy that it is a
bad habit.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Bhrigu » 16 May 2003 23:20

AnilJoshi,

Perfect!! Now I remember. Such bad memory :( , I used to recount this tale to almost all my friends once upon a time.

Thanks.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Prateek » 17 May 2003 00:36

I remember watching his address live on TV. The only problem with that story was that, the incident happened with Ramakrishna Paramahansa, and not Gandhiji. But any way, he gave the message, since Americans know about Gandhi and not Ramakrishna Paramhansaji.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 17 May 2003 02:15

This story does/will not resonate in america. here the saying goes 'do as I say and not as I do' (one of my bosses told me that once).

PVNR must have recounted that story in the context of non-proliferation, But it is water of a ducks back. A majority of americans are convinced that they need nuclear weapons and an even greater majority feel India should not be allowed to have them.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 17 May 2003 02:21

Well not everyone in that circa felt the benifits of liberalization. If you were an exporter or an employee of newly opened MNC it sure was good. If you were in government service it didnt do much for you. Hence the construct of liberalization and finances is indeed not as self-evident as you make it out to be.
So only exporters and MNC-employees were benefited? Why the hell would a person who is already an exporter need liberalization to enjoys the good times?

MNC's were around even before liberalization. Hindustan Lever is one example. Pre-1991, its sales/revenue growth were good but not exemplary. Take a gander at HLL's revenue and sales growth post-1991. Now, where does HLL derive most of its revenue from? Not from exporters and MNC-employees. From rural markets. IOW, HLL's explosive growth came from rural markets where people could now afford to buy their products. If the liberalization benefits were not pervasive enough, HLL would have been exactly where it was, pre-Lib. In 1991, I would guess HLL share price was around Rs.50-100 range. After several "bonuses" or stock splits, including the latest whopping 10-1 split, HLL's price is about Rs. 250. That should give you an idea of the sustained growth HLL had post-Lib. I am quoting HLL as its income mainly comes from rural areas.

The contention that "not everyone" benefited from post-Lib is with due respect, utter crap. It benefitted millions of ordinary families such as myself and my colleagues.

Further the GRE is not the 'cheapest' of competitive entrance exams. If you had given your CAT or GATE or MBA entrances it sure would have cheaper and saved you the trouble of 'pre-apping and apping'.
Now you display your arrogance by presuming to know what was best for my career.

I merely related a personal experience and in no way could my words have been construed to mean that studying abroad was the "wonly" road to success. What entrance exams I choose to give are my business; and my point was that the GRE fees that were hitherto unaffordable were then affordable in the prosperity that lib. unleashed.

So I am not quite sure where you get off presuming to tell me, rather arrogantly, that I would be better off taking CAT, GATE or MBA.

Again, there seems to be an underlying hostility that I am sure I have done nothing to invite. I was relating my own experience and those of many of my colleagues.

I can give you examples of individuals who came from a family facing sever economic hardships, wrote his GATE got in MSc and the a PhD program. And finally got to do his post-doc in the US on the merit of his work in India. They even paid for his plane ticket and he did not spend a bundle 'apping' either.
Someone who went the GATE route, then MSc IIT is currently a colleague of mine. He tells me stories of how some students who took the GATE with him were so brilliant that they could have even aced the JEE. Except, they did not even know what JEE meant. One of these GATE-IIT-MS student even today has a widowed mother who still lives in a village, "challowing" their plough, as he puts it.

I am sure that there are numerous post-docs in the US who did not have to 'app or pre-app as you put it. That shows your ignorance. Apping and pre-apping is required for MS and Ph.D. degrees in the US. THe post-doc world is more specialized and such 'apping is not required.

In fact, the more I read your rantings, the stronger the feeling that you envy those who could actually pre-app and 'app and resent perhaps the fact that you could not do it. Again, get off your high horse.

Please note I am not dismissing your efforts and or your successes.
You have no authority to do, even if you wished to do so.

An equivalent statement by me would be that I wanna eat millions of chana, light the methane that must surely emanate after 8 hrs of digestion and rocket myself to the moon, but I CHOSE not to do so.

But there are still a lot of engineers/graduates who do not have the the warewithall in POST-liberalised india to make it here. For them a Rs.5000 job is still better than nothing. Hence your vignette cannot be generalised as an outcome of liberalization.
I am sure there are. As a grad student in the US, I have helped many get in my dept, even raising funds to pay for the application fees and air tickets. Unlike the attitude of some desis who talk-talk-and taaalk and do squat to help their fellow countrymen.

warewithall
You, with due respect would probably have gotten no more than 300 in your GRE with such spelling skills.

But there are still a lot of engineers/graduates who do not have the the warewithall in POST-liberalised india to make it here.
Coming to the US is not the epitome of success. And I have never felt or said or implied that it was. A foreign degree cannot be the yardstick for academic success. There surely are many desis who may believe that but I am not one of them. So, I am not quite sure what you are trying to imply there. Please feel free to be direct. As you can tell, I have no trouble getting right to the point.

For them a Rs.5000 job is still better than nothing.
I am sure it is. In fact, if you are an engineer of any merit, you probably would earn a lot more than that.

I grew up in a "chawl." I am not quite sure if the chawl is a uniqely mumbai phenomena. But let me explain it. Nineteen small "kholis" to a floor. Where the 20th would be were four common toilets. Had to get in line every morn to take a dump.

So, I am still quite unsure as to what exactly gives you the right to mouth off to me.

As I said, we could afford the bare necessities of life and no more. Lib allowed me to come here to the US because that is what I wanted and Lib. gave me the resources to do so. Along with me, a lot, perhaps as many as 20 of my SSC colleagues are here in the US. All of us bound together by our common "chawl" experience. All came here on merit. None of us were exporters or the children of MNC-employees.

So unless I completely misread the intent in your post, here's adios to you.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby AJay » 17 May 2003 03:54

Originally posted by Kaushal:
PVNR must have recounted that story in the context of non-proliferation, But it is water of a ducks back. A majority of americans are convinced that they need nuclear weapons and an even greater majority feel India should not be allowed to have them.
Kaushal

You are quite correct. It all comes down to the fact that moralizing is not going to convince people in DC as much as hard-nosed realistic bargaining. I felt that telling of this particular story was not only had no effect, it might have actually rubbed some of them the wrong way.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Bhrigu » 17 May 2003 04:05

Why would a hardcore chankian like PVNR decide to rub the world's only super power the wrong way ? that too back then when India was no where close to where we are now ??!!

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby AJay » 17 May 2003 04:20

Originally posted by Harish:
Why would a hardcore chankian like PVNR decide to rub the world's only super power the wrong way ? that too back then when India was no where close to where we are now ??!!
Surprising, isn't it? it could have been a miscalculation. But going by his Chanakyan mind set, this could have been a ploy to give an impression that he is not a deep thinker, hence mouthed off some inanities, got a good measure of US deal makers in the process, went back to India and started Kalam and Arunachalam on the Integrated Missile Program and Shakti. Most of you would also remember his speech at the White House where he said "Look my arm is straight - nobody has twisted it" or some thing to that effect, after which Clinotn thanked him for his support.

George J

Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby George J » 17 May 2003 04:23

Originally posted by GGanesh:
MNC's were around even before liberalization. Hindustan Lever is one example. ........In 1991, I would guess HLL share price was around Rs.50-100 range. After several "bonuses" or stock splits, including the latest whopping 10-1 split, HLL's price is about Rs. 250. ....The contention that "not everyone" benefited from post-Lib is with due respect, utter crap. It benefitted millions of ordinary families such as myself and my colleagues.
Well if I had stocks in HLL I would have loved to enjoyed the virtues of 10-1 split. If you did own stocks I can understand why you would have love HLL at that time. But then again you wouldnt be whining about having to dole out 45K just to get to the US after a 10-1 split.

Now you display your arrogance by presuming to know what was best for my career.... I am not quite sure where you get off presuming to tell me, rather arrogantly, that I would be better off taking CAT, GATE or MBA.
If you think its arrogant of me for getting ****ed off at you for stating how you were saved from earning Rs.5000 a month being a lowly engineer in India while you get to reap the benifits of doling out 45K to app to the US then yes. Sure its none of my business to tell you what exames to take. Just like its not your place to assume that folks who didnot or could not get to the US and are earning Rs.5000 in India are wallowing in pain and poverty.

....He tells me stories of how some students who took the GATE with him were so brilliant that they could have even aced the JEE. Except, they did not even know what JEE meant.
Err if they know what GATE is and claim to not know what JEE is its a bit hard to swollow. Claiming that they can ace an heitherthough unknown exam (when being fully aware of GATE) is incredulous.

That shows your ignorance. Apping and pre-apping is required for MS and Ph.D. degrees in the US. THe post-doc world is more specialized and such 'apping is not required.
They dont use cerebro to locate good post docs. Post doc have to seek out good programs, establish contact with them. They do need to fill out forms, send in CV's, Recco's, transcripts, reprints of their most recent works and description of relevent interests. They may or may not give GRE. But if you dont think all the above is equivalent of apping (since you were so worried about the cost of pre-apping) then what is? Yet the folks who I cited went through these and ended up coming to the US spending much list that your post-liberalized self.

In fact, the more I read your rantings, the stronger the feeling that you envy those who could actually pre-app and 'app and resent perhaps the fact that you could not do it. Again, get off your high horse.
I dont remember the cost of pre-apping (I think it was 6.80 for each air-mail plus (50 nos) the cost of specialized air-mail from USEFI + 44,000 for application fees and ASR's for GRE and TOeFL + Rs.28000 for one way plane tix + $2000 in forex to settle in. That was a lot of money.

An equivalent statement by me would be that I wanna eat millions of chana, light the methane that must surely emanate after 8 hrs of digestion and rocket myself to the moon, but I CHOSE not to do so.
The only place you would have gone to would be the ER. Trust me its not a pretty place. :D

I am sure there are. As a grad student in the US, I have helped many get in my dept, even raising funds to pay for the application fees and air tickets. Unlike the attitude of some desis who talk-talk-and taaalk and do squat to help their fellow countrymen.
Its funny you say talk talk. Coz thats what this whole debate is about: "If you want to talk the talk, then walk the walk." IOW, if you or anyone who wants to come to the US for grad school should be aware of both the risks and sacrifices involved in the process. If you have the resource and the acumen then do so, if not there are a lot of folks who fine gainful employment in India or go on to get an advanced degree (which is cheaper to apply for) from INdia itself. Even if you dont have a 10-1 stock split to bank on.

You, with due respect would probably have gotten no more than 300 in your GRE with such spelling skills.
Actually i did get a 660 (93 percentile) with my poor spelling. :D

Coming to the US is not the epitome of success. And I have never felt or said or implied that it was.
I am sure it is (Rs.5000 pm job). In fact, if you are an engineer of any merit, you probably would earn a lot more than that.
But in the post (which started this whole debate) you claimed that your 'SSC Batch' would have been still employed at Rs.5000 if it werent for PVN's efforts. Which implies that they are not and i am assuming from the first half your post that they all got 45K to apply to the US thanks to PVN and hence did better tha 5K job. Now you say you can earn more as an engineer in India. You are contradicting your first tenet of coming to the US now. Make up your mind.

I grew up in a "chawl." ......So, I am still quite unsure as to what exactly gives you the right to mouth off to me.
Very touching. A couple of weeks back I read in Mid-Day that the Maharashtra topper (reserved category) in UPSC exams lives in a slum which is a few rungs below a chawl. If they had an extra 45K they would have repaired the tin roof which leaks every monsoon. I dont think they reaped the benifits of lib that touched you.

Lib allowed me to come here to the US because that is what I wanted and Lib. gave me the resources to do so. Along with me, a lot, perhaps as many as 20 of my SSC colleagues are here in the US. All of us bound together by our common "chawl" experience. All came here on merit. None of us were exporters or the children of MNC-employees.
If you ascribe your resource to lib then so be it. Thats not what got many of my cohort to the US. Being in the government service our folks resources did not change dramatically, my total spending to come to the US was more than my father's annual salary too. But the moot point is if you want to talk to the talk, then you should walk the walk. You wanna come to the US then you need to gather the resources to do so period. If you have a 10-1 stock split for your resources or if you still waiting for the blessings of the 5th pay commission and your PF.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Bhrigu » 17 May 2003 04:24

To AnilJ,

hmmmmm..., ahem, ummmm..., cough cough .. WOKAY BOSS, as you say!!! :D

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 17 May 2003 04:59

When all else fails, resort to lies.

Just like its not your place to assume that folks who didnot or could not get to the US and are earning Rs.5000 in India are wallowing in pain and poverty.
Show me one place, anywhere, where i have either said or implied that.

Err if they know what GATE is and claim to not know what JEE is its a bit hard to swollow. Claiming that they can ace an heitherthough unknown exam (when being fully aware of GATE) is incredulous.
The JEE precedes GATE. IOW, it is possible for a person to not know about the JEE say, when he/she is in 12th grade or earlier but possible for that very he/she to learn about the GATE when in college. Is that still too incredulous for you?

The only place you would have gone to would be the ER. Trust me its not a pretty place.
True and my statement was to illustrate how moronic your statement was in presuming to not take anything away from me.

Actually i did get a 660 (93 percentile) with my poor spelling.
740 in verbal

But in the post (which started this whole debate) you claimed that your 'SSC Batch' would have been still employed at Rs.5000 if it werent for PVN's efforts. Which implies that they are not and i am assuming from the first half your post that they all got 45K to apply to the US thanks to PVN and hence did better tha 5K job. Now you say you can earn more as an engineer in India. You are contradicting your first tenet of coming to the US now.
Again, its that incredulilty that keeps you from grasping simple concepts.

There is a difference between Lib giving your parents the resources to finance your education versus Lib enabling you to get a better salary, which is then saved up over a few years time to self-finance your own education. In my case, the former was true.

Again, try not to strain yourself. Lest incredulity strikes again.

Very touching. A couple of weeks back I read in Mid-Day that the Maharashtra topper (reserved category) in UPSC exams lives in a slum which is a few rungs below a chawl. If they had an extra 45K they would have repaired the tin roof which leaks every monsoon. I dont think they reaped the benifits of lib that touched you.
The slum is a lot of rungs below a chawl. To grow up in such adverse conditions and to top any competitive exam is truly a remarkable achievement. Did you check out their tin roof by any chance? The fact that we have Lib. today, ushered in during the PVN R era means that when that bright young person is either ready to enter the workforce or even try his/her hands at emigration, he/she has a fighting chance. The proliferation of cyber cafes charging Rs. 10/hr for surfing the net would not have been possible without Lib.

my total spending to come to the US was more than my father's annual salary too. But the moot point is if you want to talk to the talk, then you should walk the walk. You wanna come to the US then you need to gather the resources to do so period. If you have a 10-1 stock split for your resources or if you still waiting for the blessings of the 5th pay commission and your PF.
I mean this sincerely. I am truly sorry that Lib. did not help you or your family in any meaningful way.

However, there are a lot of people who did benefit from Lib. and the fact that you did not does not negate PVN Rao's role in opening the economy and unleashing forces that helped a lot of people. The parents of my friends here in the US (including my own-who retired in 1975) were all in predominantly the private sector.

So, you personally are bitter. That's your problem.

This thread is about PVN R Liberalization and its effects on ordinary people. I benefited and you did not. From the sound of it, we both would classify as "ordinary folks." There was no assertion on my part that every single Indian benefited from Lib. Only that many or lots did.

Added Later:

Well if I had stocks in HLL I would have loved to enjoyed the virtues of 10-1 split. If you did own stocks I can understand why you would have love HLL at that time. But then again you wouldnt be whining about having to dole out 45K just to get to the US after a 10-1 split.
Nothing prevented you or your folks from owning stocks. There are a lot of people in India who own stocks, coming from "ordinary" backgrounds. Some of these individuals, like my father, had the vision to realize that the babus of India could not forever subdue the Indian entrepreneurial spirit. Whatever he could save, some significant fraction went into stocks.

Again, the fact that you did not benefit does not negate the significance of the Liberalization period for ordinary Indians.

George J

Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby George J » 17 May 2003 06:09

originally posted by GGanesh:

When all else fails, resort to lies. Show me one place, anywhere, where i have either said or implied that.
I am hardly the only one that benefited. Virtually, all the top 15-20 students from my batch of SSC, all marathis, were in the same boat as us, financially speaking....But what liberalization did for all of us was to give us the bare funds necessary to do all of the pre-App work and the air-ticket. I am guessing it all came up to about Rs. 45,000 back in those days.....Pre-Lib, Rs. 45,000 was an amount that exceeded the salary of even engineers. ...(He is an engineer; with a salary of 3,000) were not uncommon....Suffice to say, without the efforts of PVN R, a lot of my batch of SSC would be still gainfully employed in India as engineers, albeit at a salary of Rs. 5000.
What am i supposed to make of this. And then you say there is nothing wrong in earning Rs.5000 in your previous reply.

The JEE precedes GATE. IOW, it is possible for a person to not know about the JEE say, when he/she is in 12th grade or earlier but possible for that very he/she to learn about the GATE when in college. Is that still too incredulous for you?
yes, completely. To claim that you dont know what JEE (and hence IIT) is and yet to an MSc in a technical field is illogical.

True and my statement was to illustrate how moronic your statement was in presuming to not take anything away from me.
I am not the one resorting to personal afforntary here. You are the one who assumed that I did not pre-app or give GRE hence I am bitter.

740 in verbal
I am really happy for you, just as you should be for me as I did not get a 300 as you had wished/hypothesised. PS: Its the percentile that matters. ;)

Again, its that incredulilty that keeps you from grasping simple concepts.
What is simple to you, sounds incredulous and contradictory to me.

There is a difference between Lib giving your parents the resources to finance your education versus Lib enabling you to get a better salary, which is then saved up over a few years time to self-finance your own education. In my case, the former was true.
Good now you are at least assuming that liberalization can have varying effects. Hold that thought till the end of my reply.

Again, try not to strain yourself. Lest incredulity strikes again.

The slum is a lot of rungs below a chawl. To grow up in such adverse conditions and to top any competitive exam is truly a remarkable achievement. Did you check out their tin roof by any chance?
What part of 'reading in Mid-day' did you not understand. I dont have a habit of conjuring up tin roofs.

The fact that we have Lib. today, ushered in during the PVN R era means that when that bright young person is either ready to enter the workforce or even try his/her hands at emigration, he/she has a fighting chance. The proliferation of cyber cafes charging Rs. 10/hr for surfing the net would not have been possible without Lib.
True you can certainly surf the net better, but emigration is better due to lib is a far fetched theory. Sure thanks to lib you can now become a telemarketeer in India.

I mean this sincerely. I am truly sorry that Lib. did not help you or your family in any meaningful way.
Then sincerely thank you. But i must admit i did get to surf the net while researching univs (thanks to lib), which gave me the power of email, something that none of my predecessor had when they apped in the 80's. The poor blokes (half their graduating batch) only had brochures to read from.

However, there are a lot of people who did benefit from Lib. and the fact that you did not does not negate PVN Rao's role in opening the economy and unleashing forces that helped a lot of people.........So, you personally are bitter. That's your problem.
I never said that. I am a PV acolyte. Still to this point you have not addressed how he helped you.

I am fun guy I dont have any bitterness (except about parking in downtown chicago during BR meets)

This thread is about PVN R Liberalization and its effects on ordinary people. I benefited and you did not. From the sound of it, we both would classify as "ordinary folks." There was no assertion on my part that every single Indian benefited from Lib. Only that many or lots did.
Hey I love my internet and coca-cola and kellogs cereal...long live PVN.


Added Later:
Nothing prevented you or your folks from owning stocks. There are a lot of people in India who own stocks, coming from "ordinary" backgrounds. Some of these individuals, like my father, had the vision to realize that the babus of India could not forever subdue the Indian entrepreneurial spirit. Whatever he could save, some significant fraction went into stocks.

Again, the fact that you did not benefit does not negate the significance of the Liberalization period for ordinary Indians.
I do believe we had some stocks but not the 10-1 split variety. And Harshad Bhai but an end to the cement run. Its wonderful that your father had the foresight to invest wisely and it yielded dividents and I am assuming that helped you in your apping. But your hypothesis has changed over the debate.

You claimed:
Without lib your standard of living would not improved and your entrepreneur father would not have reaped the benifits. (I can see that now and concede that. But that does not apply across the board as was my case)

You claimed:
You spent a pretty penny getting to the US. (Most people who got here know the resources involved before even they gave their GRE and hence its not a problem unique to you)

You claimed:
I came to the US from a very resource constrained environment and I spent a pretty penny doing it. (Well you are not alone there are others who dont gripe about it coz they knew the risks involved. Yet others came here after getting their post-grad degree and hence spending much less. Yet others stuck on in India simply because they did not have the means or lib benifits and have done very very well for themselves.)

You claimed:
Lib opened the floodgates of Indian students coming to the US. (Partly true, partly because more people are aware of opportunities, thanks to the media. But there has always been a steady stream of students (from varied background) coming to the US since the 60's. All of them knowing that it was neither cheap or easy to get to the US)

Bottomline:
Students have been coming to the US long before lib. Only those who had the resources and know what was involved bothered to apply. Its not cheap to come to the US. Lib. helped you get the resources to come to the US, yet there are others whom it did not. Staying back in India is not as vile an option as you made it out to be in your original post. Individuals with no lib back resources have done well for themselves in India, even from trying background.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby A Bhushan » 18 May 2003 10:37

He was a good prime minister who has given Manmomoahn Singh as finance minister of India.We should simply thanks him for this.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Ponniyin Selvan » 18 May 2003 14:11

Originally posted by Antim:
I beg to differ, Mr Selvan.
First thing abt Babri Masjid and wrong analogy you used.
No point arguing about this. We'll never agree and it's better to disagree. We just have different visions of India that each of us genuinely (or naively :D ) believe is superior to the other.

However,
I will not say that PV may have thought abt the country that time. But those who were trying to pull the govt down were harming country at that juncture and buying off a few scumbags was a wise decision then. It did save our country. Didn't it? Say what wud have happened if that govt fell. The primeminister might have been jyoti basu or mulayam singh.
I'm sorry that I'm a liberal democrat. If mulayam and jyoti basu became a PM that's a tragedy - as much of a tragedy if Advani or Thackeray become PM. I think Sonia would be pretty bad as well, but not because she's an Italian ..

Irrespective of that, if the people do elect a Nazi-loving fascist like Thackeray, then, yes, he "deserves" to be PM, although it will be the duty of patriotic Indians to help defeat him.

There is NO, repeat NO, circumstance under which the crime of cheapening our democracy by paying off legislators can be somehow glossed over as "saving the country". One reason I have little respect for Savarkar is for his treachery, although that pales in comparison to my contempt for his Pakistani-aping ideologies.

I am surprised that anyone can condone PVN's actions re bribing MPs.

I am more surprised that I am debating against a Kangresswala .. especially if my opponent is an knickerwala :-)

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 18 May 2003 19:54

knickerwala ?

As Gandhiji said (of the King Emperor) some of us wear plus fours and some of us wear minus fours. But between the 2 of us we are adequately dressed.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Pathmarajah » 19 May 2003 02:56

PV Narasimha Rao has my vote over and above, Charan Singh, VP Singh, Chandrasekhar, Rajic Gandhi, Deve Gowda and IK Gujral due to his initiatives in economic liberalisation and bringing cheer to scores of millions thru prosperity. All DRDO, IAEC and ISRO programmes are culminating in sucesss today because he backed it and kept it alive when the nation was nearly bankrupt.

The most difficult times in India were in 1962 and 1990 and PV N Rao did immaculately well. He stands along with Nehru and Vaypayee.

George J

Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby George J » 19 May 2003 05:23

Does anyone have any updates on PV's health? Where exactly is he now a day? Delhi or Hydrabad?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Atish » 19 May 2003 11:51

The real version goes:

Hum aah bhi kare to ho jaae badnaam
wo katl bhi kare to charcha nahi hoti.

Cheers.
Atish.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby A Bhushan » 19 May 2003 16:51

wasn't he finally won the case.
In Sept., 2000, Rao was convicted of conspiring to buy votes in parliament prior to a 1993 no-confidence vote; he was sentenced to three years in prison.
.
If i remember finally he got acquited.Isn't it?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 19 May 2003 19:16

am hardly the only one that benefited. Virtually, all the top 15-20 students from my batch of SSC, all marathis, were in the same boat as us, financially speaking....But what liberalization did for all of us was to give us the bare funds necessary to do all of the pre-App work and the air-ticket. I am guessing it all came up to about Rs. 45,000 back in those days.....Pre-Lib, Rs. 45,000 was an amount that exceeded the salary of even engineers. ...(He is an engineer; with a salary of 3,000) were not uncommon....Suffice to say, without the efforts of PVN R, a lot of my batch of SSC would be still gainfully employed in India as engineers, albeit at a salary of Rs. 5000.
Check out the last sentence. When you look at that last sentence through a rather embittered lens, there aint nothing I can do.

There is nothing wrong with being gainfully employed in India at a salary of R. 5000 (much more now) for an engineer. However, that is not what I wanted. When I came to the US, I came so on a TA (later RA) that offered $800/mo. Without an TA/RA, Lib or not, I would not have been able to make it here (and neither would my friends). Most of us also had immediate pressures back home to start earning right away. Accepting admission offers in the US allowed us to have our cake and eat it too. It was child's play to save about $200/mo (spending on basic necessities and nothing else-just like in India :D ). That allowed us, without delay to get our degrees and earn enough to send back home.

yes, completely. To claim that you dont know what JEE (and hence IIT) is and yet to an MSc in a technical field is illogical.
I am going to try once again. Damn, it almost feels like I am trying to explain something to a sarkari babu chewing paan.

I hope that you will at least admit that the JEE precedes GATE. Well, so far so good. Hypothetically, assume the following: I have no idea what JEE is. I do manage to get good grades. My mom is still "challowing a plough" in my village. Have siblings. No father. Through sheer luck or perhaps some through some well-wisher, I get an admit, based on my 12th grades to a REC. Am exposed to a whole new world outside of what I knew. Realized that it was too late for JEE. But heard of GATE. Again, it is only your jaundiced view that prevents you from picking simple precepts.

As regards personal affrontery, out debate as it were, started when you chose to use personal affrontery to my post which only chose to recount my personal experience and those of my friends, made no reference to you whatsoever. That you chose to first attack me (and not just what I was saying) should be very clear to you when you go through your first post in response to mine. When hit back, you whine.

The rest of your post is not worth responding to. Your whole post smacks of the "bitter grapes" syndrome. That your stocks were not of the 10-1 split variety shows the lack of sagacity in portfolio management. BTW, my father did not make it past 10th standard. My mother past 6th std. I would bet anything that your folks were better educated than mine. So, if anything, what my parents achieved was against even greater odds. My father did not sit around blaming others for his socio-economic status (or lack thereof).

It is very clear that you started with a very jaundiced, sarkari-babu POV of blaming everyone else but yourself. There is really no point in further discussion.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 19 May 2003 20:21

Ganesh, first I must congratulate you for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. There is an undercurrent of opinion here in BR that many of us BRites were all born with a silver spoon in our mouth. Of course I left India long before PVNR became a household word. The choices were even fewer in those days. There was only one IIT(kharagpur) at the time i got out of school and IIT Powai was just opening its doors. There were hardly any RECs. Salaries were very low in those days. My father made about Rs.500 per month when i started attending St.Xaviers in Bombay in 1956, and even when i was attending Engineering college, making ends meet was a struggle.Many of us had to skip one meal a day to stretch our meager resources. My point is things have improved tremendously over the decades. Now there are far more choices in the number of colleges and in the number of professions. In those days it was either engineering or medicine. There is no question that liberalization helped immensely and the real turnaround happened in the nineties, with consistent growth rates above 5% (for the first time), put more money in the pockets of people.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 19 May 2003 21:58

Originally posted by Ponniyin Selvan:

I am more surprised that I am debating against a Kangresswala .. especially if my opponent is an knickerwala :-)[/QB]
Strange are the ways of life! More surprising should be that a knickerwala is supporting a congresswala!! ;)

George J

Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby George J » 19 May 2003 23:41

Originally posted by GGanesh:
....I am hardly the only one that benefited. Virtually, all the top 15-20 students from my batch of SSC, all marathis, were in the same boat as us, financially speaking....But what liberalization did for all of us was to give us the bare funds necessary to do all of the pre-App work and the air-ticket. I am guessing it all came up to about Rs. 45,000 back in those days.....Pre-Lib, Rs. 45,000 was an amount that exceeded the salary of even engineers. ...(He is an engineer; with a salary of 3,000) [b]were not uncommon....Suffice to say, without the efforts of PVN R, a lot of my batch of SSC would be still gainfully employed in India as engineers, albeit at a salary of Rs. 5000.[b]
There is nothing wrong with being gainfully employed in India at a salary of R. 5000 (much more now) for an engineer. However, that is not what I wanted.
The keyword here is 'not what YOU wanted'. First you say if it werent for PV's effort you would still be earning 5K in India, now you say there is nothing wrong in earning 5K and then you finally admit, well thats what what you wanted. I.E you too had the great american dream. Just like folks before you and some as economically challenged as you had before PV came around. Those who bit the bullet came to the US. Those would could not afford 45-50K in apping did not. Yet there are those who did invest the said amount and not secure a single admit!!!


I hope that you will at least admit that the JEE precedes GATE. Well, so far so good. I have no idea what JEE is....I get an admit, based on my 12th grades to a REC. Am exposed to a whole new world outside of what I knew. Realized that it was too late for JEE. But heard of GATE. Again, it is only your jaundiced view that prevents you from picking simple precepts.
This is getting down to semantics, but if ye know what a friggin REC is and ye have a 12th class edumacation and you claim that you donno what an IIT (hence JEE) is then you dont deserve to walk the hallowed halls of an IIT. To claim to have gone through high school without general awareness in the field of interest is a very tall tale to tell.

It is very clear that you started with a very jaundiced, sarkari-babu POV of blaming everyone else but yourself. There is really no point in further discussion.
You can colour my statements anyway you desire and whatever verbiage you can muster, but the fact of the matter was there were folks still coming to the US long before PV came to power (see Kaushal ref) and a few were born with a lead spoon in their mouth.

Kaushal:
Rs. 500 was certainly no small change in the 50's. Now I cant computes its value in 2003 but its certainly much much more valuable than Rs.500 in 2003.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 19 May 2003 23:46

YAWN.

The number of desi students to hit the US shores rose to the highest among all countries. Some 68,000.

I am sure that most of them came with some support offered here in the US like an RA or TA. There is a reason why the flow of indian students to the US was a trickle during Kaushal's time, opened up during my time and is a flood today.

Can you spell L-I-B-E-R-A-L-I-Z-A-T-I-O-N?

Or is it still "Kolhyala draksha ambat" S-O-U-R G-R-A-P-E-S?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Umrao » 19 May 2003 23:54

yes I agree with George , 1950s Rs 500 would fetch a lot.

ex. quintal(100 Kgs) of Rice would be approx Rs 30-32. House rent for two bed room kind would be roughly Rs 60 in Hyd in those days.

My father started with a salary of BG Rs 20 in 1938 during British Raj (in Secunderabad) and would work part time in Plaza theater then. He could support two families (legal :) ) one in East Godavari and one in Secunderabad. He was the paid in BG Rs ( BG for British Govt) and Nizams Silver Halli ( for his part time work).

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Sridhar » 20 May 2003 00:02

Starting salary for a fresh civil services officer in 1963 was approx. Rs. 300 pm. Rent of a 2-BD house in Ahmedabad (in a 'good' area like Navrangpura) was Rs. 50 pm. In 1970, rent of a relatively large 2-BD independent house in Karol Bagh (just off Pusa Road) was Rs. 300pm. Salary of a lower-middle level IAS officer at that time was Rs. 600 pm.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 20 May 2003 00:15

Its hard to follow what GeorgeJ and GGanesh are fighting about. All I understand is, if you are in a govt. job, liberization has no meaning for you but yeah 5th pay commission does. Privatization helped in booming of industries, so more ppl who were enterpreneur got rich and helped in generating more jobs. Since no pension plans and job security was offered, they were offered more pay.
The increase of students to US has hardly to do with changes in our economic model. It was more abt software boom in US and yes more easy access to information.

George J

Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby George J » 20 May 2003 00:25

Spin and Sridhar:
Thanks for the corroborative anecdotal comparitors. :D

GGanesh:
S-I-G-H...

Rest:
I found this PV biography page. <a href="http://www.indiaxroads.com/people/PVNarasimhaRao.cfm">link</a> Its a very interesting read, especially on what he thought and what was required of him to do.

Only addition is that he was aquitted by the HC on March 15, 2002.

History should note him not just for his liberalization efforts but also commend him for being the PM of India at a time when the world changed overnight: collapse of the Soviet Union and the birth of the unipolar paradigm and all its accoutrements.

Antim:
If you start a thread on one topic and someone comes in and starts a nested debate centered around sematics which invariable results in an impass, its called a 'typical BR thread'. :D You need to give me and GGanesh the credit that we have tried our best to incorporate PV ji in most of our tangential arguments. Its better than talking about lungis on 'Why is it cool to hate India' thread. :rotfl:

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 20 May 2003 02:33

Its hard to follow what GeorgeJ and GGanesh are fighting about.
Go back to my first post and that of GeorgeJ's.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 20 May 2003 02:40

Originally posted by GGanesh:
Its hard to follow what GeorgeJ and GGanesh are fighting about.
Go back to my first post and that of GeorgeJ's.
Dude, looks to me that you take things too personally. I think most ppl come to this forum to enhance their understanding of current affairs abt india. We should be trying not to get pulled into petty squabble. Anyways, I don't want to be caught in crossfire! :)

George, thanks for the link. We are really fortunate to have PV then.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 20 May 2003 02:43

Privatization helped in booming of industries, so more ppl who were enterpreneur got rich and helped in generating more jobs. Since no pension plans and job security was offered, they were offered more pay.
I might be wrong here but AFAIK, until Lib, even the private sector wages were not that much higher than the govt sector. Is this correct? My recollection is that the wages between the two sectors were de-linked post Lib and the private sector wages took off.

My whole point was that the Lib made affordable things that were difficult, if not impossible until then for ordinary folks. It is axiomatic that Lib. did not reach all folks equally. It is equally axiomatic that those such as myself, who I would classify pre-Lib as lower middle class (bare necessities + a few things), got just enough of a boost, post-Lib., to be able to easily afford (for example) the cost of applications for a MS degree to the US. Would it have been possible without Lib? May be. With loans. But, undoubtedly it would have been difficult.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 20 May 2003 02:44

One question: Nobody yet commented on PVs role during anti-sikh riots in 1984. I am curious what did he do to stop them. I remember vaguely that he was accused of doing nothing.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Antim » 20 May 2003 02:49

Originally posted by GGanesh:

My whole point was that the Lib made affordable things that were difficult, if not impossible until then for ordinary folks. It is axiomatic that Lib. did not reach all folks equally. It is equally axiomatic that those such as myself, who I would classify pre-Lib as lower middle class (bare necessities + a few things), got just enough of a boost, post-Lib., to be able to easily afford (for example) the cost of applications for a MS degree to the US. Would it have been possible without Lib? May be. With loans. But, undoubtedly it would have been difficult.
So, your parents started a new venture or got a new job in private sector which helped? Coz if they were in govt. service, you will still not be able to afford the fees etc. I am myself a son of a clerk. hardly had money to pay for engg. in a REC. Got help from my uncle and now landed here in US. Privatization had no role in my prosperity.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 20 May 2003 03:13

Actually, if you had read my earlier posts, i had mentioned that my father (ssc educated) had retired in 1975 (almost 16 yrs before Lib); mother-6th grade marathi edu., housewife). Father was a prolific saver as evidenced from the fact that the only "appliance" we had was a radio (not even a TV). Incidentally, my father was a clerk too, when he retired from HLL (hindustan lever) in 1975.

He never believed in fixed deposits. Kept enough money around to meet expenses and invested wisely in stocks. Stock investing is not quite the forte of the maharashtrian. Yet, as i said earlier, he was convinced that the socialist babus would never be able to hold down the indian entrepreneurial spirit. He invested heavily in HLL as it was the company he knew best, having worked there all his life. From the dividend income and additional savings, he diversified. This was something he started in the '50s, as far as I can tell.

As I said, the only appliance we had was a radio. Two sets of new clothes every diwali. Jeans, fuggedaboutit. He himself wore the same plastic pair of slippers he had bought only god knows when. Every time they wore down, he would go to the "mochi" downstairs who would fix them using a strip of plastic until pretty much nothing of the original chappal remained. I still remember that he had those very chappal on when I got married. Still refused to buy new ones. BTW, no phatake's (crackers) for diwali. None. I was probably the only kid in my building who went through childhood without every having lit a single cracker.

So, in answer to your question, NO. We did not start our own multi-national company. Nor did we win the lottery.

Most of my batch of SSC class-mates were in the same boat as me. Most of the parents were salaried, usually clerk-type jobs. A stupendous 20 out of a total class of some 200 in SSC from my batch are in the US. Not all of them were investors like my father. Yet all of them were prolific savers-this i know because we usually had squat.

As i said in my earlier post, it is almost axiomatic that Lib would have touched people differently. However, it did help us and my friends. And that trend was started by PVN R.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 20 May 2003 03:34

Kaushal:
Rs. 500 was certainly no small change in the 50's. Now I cant computes its value in 2003 but its certainly much much more valuable than Rs.500 in 2003.


Were you alive then ? Take it from me it wasnt a large amount,although it was certainly above the poverty line. I remember the Milk bill alone was Rs 100/-per month(dont get me wrong, we were happy to get any milk at all). Remember that the milk had to be milked that same morning and carried on the head of the dudhwalla till he delivered his complete round. There was no pasteurization , no refrigeration at all. Most homes did not own a refrigerator then. You had to boil the milk immediately and then convert the excess to curd before the end of the day.There was no cooking gas either. People used kerosene stoves, which were of course a major fire hazard. Most people who did not live during that era have no idea of the differences between now and then.

I am not claiming we were destitute but certainly it would be what you would politely class as 'lower middle class'.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Bhrigu » 20 May 2003 04:08

Back in the 50's, was the difference in the living standards of Bombay and the rest of India as disparate as it is today ?

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Kaushal » 20 May 2003 04:15

Bombay was a wonderful city in the 50's. You could see a movie at Metro or Regal in AC comfort for Rs.2.00. There was always a lot going on, esp. on campus at St.Xaviers. It was not a tremendously expensive city in those days.But then the population was about 3 million as compared to 15 million today.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby JE Menon » 21 May 2003 15:28

God, guys, are we still arguing whether liberalisation benefited the lower or no income people in India?

It's time for a trip home then.

Ganesh, your story is like tens I know. Only in my case, my father was the one who went abroad - walked ashore to the Gulf after getting off a ship with nothing but a BSc and 25 Rs, and a spare mundu and shirt. This was after I was born, but well before lib began. The process of Indians pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps have definitely accelerated after lib, IMHO.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby GGanesh » 21 May 2003 20:41

JEM: "My story" FWIW pales in comparison to the efforts of many others who have pulled themselves up through much more adverse circumstances. I see many such examples even today. It certainly was not my intention to toot my horn ro that I was somehow "special" in the adversity I faced. You said tens. More like tens of thousands. The basic point i was trying to make is that Lib helped a lot of people like me. Not exactly like me. Some may have been worse off, some better off.

The process of Indians pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps have definitely accelerated after lib, IMHO.
Exactly. Kaushal stated his experience and you did so too. Both pre-Lib. However, as I said earlier Lib opened up the flood gates. Was it this year that the number of desi students in the US topped 68,000. I would be surprised if more than a few (single-digit'000) came here without RAs/TAs. Or could have afforded to come here without financial assistantship from the US univ where they ended up. Approx 90% of the desis where I am (dont wanna disclose location) come here with full financial aid. In the years that I have been here, in my dept only, there has been just one student who came from an affluent family out of about a 100 desi students. The rest all came from the "lower-middle-class" working background that I had referred to earlier.

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Re: P V Narsimha Rao

Postby Sridhar » 21 May 2003 21:22

Actually, if we really want to see when people started pulling themselves up by the socks, there are four major milestones (in independent India). Different sorts of people got affected at each phase

1. Independence: This was the time that the educated upper-middle-class took most advantage of. Opportunities opened up in Government services, the new public sector undertakings etc. Also, the middle class itself expanded tremendously.

2. Green Revolution: This created the rural middle class. People in rural areas found the benefits of modern agriculture. Their lives improved

3. 1980s - gradual opening up, encouragement of consumerism (the Maruti/Chetak generation), opening up of opportunities in the private sector. This was the time that the educated people started moving away from the public sector and Government jobs (though they remain attractive for various reasons) towards private jobs and enterprise. Lives improved dramatically during this decade. And the economic growth reflects this fact (though it was leading up to a financial crisis later). This decade was that of the middle-class, with a large number of entrants into the lower-middle class from the lower-classes, and into upper-middle class from lower-middle class.

4. The 1990s - this decade saw dramatic changes in the way we look at our lives. The gradual moving away from dependence on the Government, the opening up of many sectors, the freeing of enterprise. This is the age of the young (not necessarily by age, but by deeds). People who kept up with the needs of the times and developed their skills accordingly did well (the DOO generation), others fared poorly. In total however, there is no doubt that a very large number of people were positively affected by the acceleration of growth, whatever the perceptions may be.

We are now at the fifth milestone. There is a great amount of desire amongst ordinary Indians to do well for themselves. While it may not be apparent in an individual's thoughts and actions, their sum total seems to want to make India a developed country. The current period may therefore turn out to be the fifth milestone - of the 'can do' generation.


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