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Indian History Discussions - III

O Vijay
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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby O Vijay » 03 Jun 2003 21:21

Ashok, can you please point out other links which go against my assertion that Brahmins are more closely related to ST, SC and OBCs rather than other FCs or Europeans.

I am uncomfortable with the ideas propogated by outsiders and swallowed whole by some Indians that they are different than rest of the people in India. In my haste to repudiate these ideas, I may have overreached if you are correct. But, if I am correct, I think this data can be used to show that

1) Brahmins did not descend from some mythical central asian/european tribe but are same as rest of the people in India

2)and they did not practice exclusivity when it came to marriage.

Unfortunately, I am not an expert in genetic matters and I am hoping someone more qualified will take a look at this data. But I will point out that one should not use "average" as a comparison because the very effect of averaging tends to normalize the data thus washing out any interesting trends which may be discerned.

Vijay

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Arvind » 03 Jun 2003 21:51

O Vijay thanks for correcting your original statement. Now that you have done that we may get to the more scientific side of the arguments. Just to make it clear: The molecular studies on populations are still far from complete and there may be details that are still confounding workers.

Originally posted by O Vijay:
1) Brahmins did not descend from some mythical central asian/european tribe but are same as rest of the people in India
2)and they did not practice exclusivity when it came to marriage.
Just think a little more, these two conclusions do not necessarily flow from the data at all. A number of models could fit the data (including plain old Aryan invasion with extensive breeding with local populations). and you may need to distinguish between them based on other data or evidence.
To start with go to the same site and see this:
distance from Indians

-NOw see who are the closest neighbors. Why are they the closest neighbors?.

-Now compare this with what Ashok showed, so what could be one of the conclusions?

-Now observe the nearest neighbors of Greeks and Russians.

What does that tell you?

Conceive the distances as tree, what would you see?

(More if time permits)

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby O Vijay » 03 Jun 2003 22:00

HH, thanks for trying to reason this out with me.

First of all, do you agree with my previous observation?

But I will point out that one should not use "average" as a comparison because the very effect of averaging tends to normalize the data thus washing out any interesting trends which may be discerned.
Are we going to compare specific populations or are we going to compare "average" indians with other "average" populations? Latter will not yield any interesting conclusions, IMO because as you said "a number of models could fit the data".

Guest

Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Guest » 03 Jun 2003 22:50

Hauma,
That distance table you posted says Russians are closer to Indians (distance=29) than east and southeast Asians (98). Or am I reading the distance values wrong, i.e., a higher value=closer?

Sudarshan

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby AJay » 03 Jun 2003 23:29

Originally posted by Sudarshan:
Hauma,
That distance table you posted says Russians are closer to Indians (distance=29) than east and southeast Asians (98). Or am I reading the distance values wrong, i.e., a higher value=closer?

Sudarshan
The distance is the genetic distance - not geographical.

Guest

Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Guest » 03 Jun 2003 23:37

Originally posted by AnilJoshi:
Originally posted by Sudarshan:
[b]Hauma,
That distance table you posted says Russians are closer to Indians (distance=29) than east and southeast Asians (98). Or am I reading the distance values wrong, i.e., a higher value=closer?

Sudarshan
The distance is the genetic distance - not geographical.[/b]
Of course, but wouldn't you expect Indians to be closer to east/southeast Asians than Russians?

Sudarshan

O Vijay
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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby O Vijay » 03 Jun 2003 23:41

Sudharshan, it depends on which Russians and which East Asians the samples were taken from.

"Average" values are only an indication and many models can be fitted to the data. Specificity is the key to interpreting this data.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby O Vijay » 04 Jun 2003 02:08

Here is a study which has the specificity required:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n2/024476/brief/024476.abstract.html

H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby O Vijay » 05 Jun 2003 02:29

Interesting to read this 1965 article about India. Some of the cures proscribed were tried and found to be successful such as TV and the development of the nuclear weapons.

Strong Medicine for India
by Leland Hazard

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/65dec/medicine.htm

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby svinayak » 05 Jun 2003 03:07

How prophetic

India now knows that China is her mortal enemy and will be so for years to come. She now knows how fateful was the decision of her revered Nehru to let Pakistan separate from India when India acquired independence from Britain in 1947. Hindu India had the manpower and the resources to prevent the defection of the Islamic minority. Nehru could have been the Indian Lincoln who sought a secular Indian state -- frustrated though he was by British playing of Muslim against Hindu. But he recoiled from the bloodshed and got it nevertheless -- in the words of India's outstanding journalist, Frank Moraes, "an orgy of fratricidal killing unparalleled in human history." It was simply that Nehru did not organize the killing to preserve the Indian unity which Gandhi had striven to attain by preaching an end to fear and hate, by practicing nonviolence.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby O Vijay » 05 Jun 2003 03:46

Acharya, in addition to the passage you quoted, look at these jems:

When I went to India the first time, in 1963, a knowledgeable friend said to me, "You will come back loving them or despising them." After four more visits, the last in 1965 -- a total of over eight months of purposeful travels which bracketed the cities and countryside of India, east-west, north-south -- I know why the world, or for that matter, India herself, can be divided between those who consider the great subcontinent "aimless, helpless, hopeless" and those who look on her as the East's great reservoir of timeless spirituality and its fairest promise of modern democracy. Whoever takes sides in this issue will find himself in endless disputation. It is better to adduce the conflicting evidence. Let me begin with some head notes. The world watched India's Gandhi-led struggle for independence from Britain in the first half of the twentieth century. Today, the Indian governmental bureaucracy almost slavishly follows British practices, good and bad.
Leland Hazard follows his observations with:

America, China, and Russia have been doing things for and to a weak India, long confused by her two great leaders, Gandhi and Nehru. Both men, although deeply identifying themselves with the ancient culture of India's 500,000 villages, where 80 percent of Indians live, were in a sense foreign to India, being British-trained lawyers. Democratic India has no tradition of "log-cabin" top leaders. Mr. Shastri may be the first -- if he continues to lead. One of the most illiterate population masses in the world has been guided for fifty years by bespectacled intellectuals, who understood little, if anything, of empirical activism.

India needs strength: strength of Indian bodies (agricultural); strength of the national body (industrial and military); strength of the Indian national mind (by which I mean single-mindedness to gain the power which will command respect in the modern world); and strength of the Indian national spirit (by which I mean that India must abandon the ancient assumption that she is preciously different and quit the delusion that in some way she is a spiritual force despite her physical weakness).
Its a long article to be read and re-read.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby kashmal » 05 Jun 2003 07:00

Another one for the new history books. The Sultan's "reputation for humanity and generosity" makes me puke. And they call it the "Golden age" of Delhi? (well we know where the gold came from)

+++++++++++++++++
Firuz Shah Tughluq ruled the Delhi Sultanate from 1351 to 1388. This was the golden age of the Delhi Sultanate and the sultan enjoyed a reputation for humanity and generosity. The following is a document in which he summarized the accomplishments of his rule. One might compare this with the Deeds of the Divine Augustus. Additional information can be found on the "India and Southern Asia" and the "Islam" chronologies.

Praises without end and infinite thanks to that merciful Creator who gave to me his poor abject creature Firuz . . . His impulse for the maintenance of the laws of His religion, for the repression of heresy, the prevention of crime, and the prohibition of things forbidden; who gave me also a disposition for discharging my lawful duties and my moral obligations. My desire is that...

...First I would praise Him because, when irreligion and sins opposed to the Law prevailed in Hindustan, [1] and men's habits and dispositions were inclined towards them and were averse to the restraints of religion, He inspired me, His humble servant, with an earnest desire to repress irreligion and wickedness ...

...The Hindus and idol-worshipers had agreed to pay the money for toleration and had consented to the poll tax, in return for which they and their families enjoyed security. These people now erected new idol temples in the city and the environs in opposition to the Law of the Prophet which declares that such temples are not to be tolerated. Under Divine guidance I destroyed these edifices, and I killed those leaders of infidelity who seduced others into error, and the lower orders I subjected to stripes and chastisement, until this abuse was entirely abolished . . .

...I forbade the infliction of any severe punishment on the Hindus in general, but I destroyed their idol temples, and instead thereof raised mosques ... (oh how F-ing humane and generous of you)

...Formerly the garments of great men were generally made of silk and gold brocades, beautiful but unlawful. Under Divine guidance I ordered that such garments should be worn as are approved by the Law of the Prophet, and that choice should be made of such trimmings of gold brocade, embroidery, or braiding as did not exceed four inches in breadth. Whatever was unlawful and forbidden by, or opposed to, the Law was set aside...

Complete "humanity and generosity":
http://campus.northpark.edu/history/Classes/Sources/FiruzShah.html

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 05 Jun 2003 11:22

The above passage is from Tarikh i Firoz Shahi written by Ziauddin Barani originally in Persian. Translations can be found in Elliot and Dowson.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Vijnan » 05 Jun 2003 15:33

I dunno if this belongs here.
An interesting link: http://www.shastarvidiya.org/

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby AshishN » 08 Jun 2003 21:57


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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Rajita » 08 Jun 2003 23:01

I am quite surprised by this article of Shashi Tharoor. While he normally is the typical secularist variety, here he acknowledges the ancient Hindu Science very handsomely. But note that he still keeps the AIT dates of Rig veda, jyotisha etc
yourel unstable
Why Indian science scores
Shashi Tharoor

WORKING, as I have been for the last couple of years, on a short biography of Jawaharlal Nehru, I became conscious of the extent to which we have taken for granted one vital legacy of his: the creation of an infrastructure for excellence in science and technology, which has become a source of great self-confidence and competitive advantage for the country today. Nehru was always fascinated by science and scientists. He made it a point to attend the annual Indian Science Congress every year, and he gave free rein (and taxpayers' money) to scientists in whom he had confidence to build high-quality institutions. Men like Homi Bhabha and Vikram Sarabhai constructed the platform for Indian accomplishments in the fields of atomic energy and space research; they and their successors have given the country a scientific establishment without peer in the developing world. Jawaharlal's establishment of the Indian Institutes of Technology (and the spur they provided to other lesser institutions) have produced many of the finest minds in America's Silicon Valley. Today, an IIT degree is held in the same reverence in the U.S. as one from MIT or Caltech, and India's extraordinary leadership in the software industry is the indirect result of Jawaharlal Nehru's faith in scientific education. Nehru left India with the world's second-largest pool of trained scientists and engineers, integrated into the global intellectual system, to a degree without parallel outside the developed West.

And yet the roots of Indian science and technology go far deeper than Nehru. I was reminded of this yet again by a remarkable new book, Lost Discoveries, by the American writer **** Teresi. Teresi's book studies the ancient non-Western foundations of modern science, and while he ranges from the Babylonians and Mayans to Egyptians and other Africans, it is his references to India that caught my eye. And how astonishing those are! The Rig Veda asserted that gravitation held the universe together 24 centuries before the apple fell on Newton's head. The Vedic civilisation subscribed to the idea of a spherical earth at a time when everyone else, even the Greeks, assumed the earth was flat. By the Fifth Century A.D. Indians had calculated that the age of the earth was 4.3 billion years; as late as the 19th Century, English scientists believed the earth was a hundred million years old, and it is only in the late 20th Century that Western scientists have come to estimate the earth to be about 4.6 billion years old.

If I were to focus on just one field in this column, it would be that of mathematics. India invented modern numerals (known to the world as "Arabic" numerals because the West got them from the Arabs, who learned them from us!). It was an Indian who first conceived of the zero, shunya; the concept of nothingness, shunyata, integral to Hindu and Buddhist thinking, simply did not exist in the West. ("In the history of culture," wrote Tobias Dantzig in 1930, "the invention of zero will always stand out as one of the greatest single achievements of the human race.") The concept of infinite sets of rational numbers was understood by Jain thinkers in the Sixth Century B.C. Our forefathers can take credit for geometry, trigonometry, and calculus; the "Bakhshali manuscript", 70 leaves of bark dating back to the early centuries of the Christian era, reveals fractions, simultaneous equations, quadratic equations, geometric progressions and even calculations of profit and loss, with interest.

Indian mathematicians invented negative numbers: the British mathematician Lancelot Hogben, grudgingly acknowledging this, suggested ungraciously that "perhaps because the Hindus were in debt more often than not, it occurred to them that it would also be useful to have a number which represent the amount of money one owes". (That theory would no doubt also explain why Indians were the first to understand how to add, multiply and subtract from zero — because zero was all, in Western eyes, we ever had.)

The Sulba Sutras, composed between 800 and 500 B.C., demonstrate that India had Pythagoras' theorem before the great Greek was born, and a way of getting the square root of 2 correct to five decimal places. (Vedic Indians solved square roots in order to build sacrificial altars of the proper size.) The Kerala mathematician Nilakantha wrote sophisticated explanations of the irrationality of "pi" before the West had heard of the concept. The Vedanga Jyotisha, written around 500 B.C., declares: "Like the crest of a peacock, like the gem on the head of a snake, so is mathematics at the head of all knowledge." Our mathematicians were poets too! But one could go back even earlier, to the Harappan civilisation, for evidence of a highly sophisticated system of weights and measures in use around 3000 B.C.

Archaeologists also found a "ruler" made with lines drawn precisely 6.7 millimeters apart with an astonishing level of accuracy. The "Indus inch" was a measure in consistent use throughout the area. The Harappans also invented kiln-fired bricks, less permeable to rain and floodwater than the mud bricks used by other civilisations of the time. The bricks contained no straw or other binding material and so turned out to be usable 5, 000 years later when a British contractor dug them up to construct a railway line between Multan and Lahore. And while they were made in 15 different sizes, the Harappan bricks were amazingly consistent: their length, width and thickness were invariably in the ratio of 4:2:1.

"Indian mathematical innovations," writes Teresi, "had a profound effect on neighbouring cultures." The greatest impact was on Islamic culture, which borrowed heavily from Indian numerals, trigonometry and analemma. Indian numbers probably arrived in the Arab world in 773 A.D. with the diplomatic mission sent by the Hindu ruler of Sind to the court of the Caliph al-Mansur. This gave rise to the famous arithmetical text of al-Khwarizmi, written around 820 A.D., which contains a detailed exposition of Indian mathematics, in particular the usefulness of the zero. With Islamic civilisation's rise and spread, knowledge of Indian mathematics reached as far afield as Central Asia, North Africa and Spain. "In serving as a conduit for incoming ideas and a catalyst for influencing others," Teresi adds, "India played a pivotal role." His research is such a rich lode that I intend to return to ancient Indian science in a future column.

Shashi Tharoor is the United Nations Under Secretary-General for Communications and Public Information and the author of seven books, most recently Riot and (with M.F. Husain) Kerala: God's Own Country.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 08 Jun 2003 23:51

I am quite surprised by this article of Shashi Tharoor. While he normally is the typical secularist variety,

Rajita, ST is basically a decent fella (apart from being a very charismatic individual) but has been far too immersed in 'secularist dogma' (e.g. it is OK for Indian Islamists to be anti-India but it is not OK for Hindutvadis to be proud of their heritage). If he can be 'converted' ( i hope Rajeev Srinivasan, undertakes this project)it would be a great blow to the secularist camp.

In fact the BJP should work on him to join the party and groom him for a future PM slot. There is nothing more potent than a convert. Bright people who can think out of the box are at a premium, everywhere in the world

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby AshishN » 09 Jun 2003 00:01

I saw ST on TV. Comes across as a good speaker etc. Could be a great PM if he becomes less "secularist" as K said.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby member_5202 » 09 Jun 2003 00:12

The link has a map of different scripts descent from Brahmi.

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~adluri/telugu/language/script/script1a.html

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 10 Jun 2003 21:33

ASI finds evidence of structure below masjid

Lucknow: The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) said in a report released on Tuesday that they have found evidence of a structure beneath the razed mosque in Ayodhya but cannot yet tell if it was a Ram mandir as claimed by Hindu activists.

In a report to a court, the ASI said "anomalies" had been found in 15 of 30 trenches dug at the site of the Babri mosque.

The report is framed in technical terms but Lucknow High Court advocate Zafaryiab Jilani, told AFP that ASI archaeologists had confirmed some findings by Japanese group Tojo international, which, using radar, found evidence of a structure beneath the ruins.

"In some trenches, anomalies (structural obstructions below ground level) were pointed out by Tojo," said Jilani, who is acting for Muslim parties in the dispute.

The report said that square and circular pillar bases had been found in four trenches, which experts told AFP were large enough to indicate that a "majestic structure" could once have existed on the site.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kumar » 10 Jun 2003 21:35

TOI says:
ASI finds no proof of structure below Babari : report

It does mention pillar bases, but says it is not a "concrete" proof. It also says:

"This does not match the claims of TOJO Vikas, the company that conducted radar surveys of the disputed site. TOJO had claimed that structures existed in 15 specific areas, a private television channel reported on Tuesday" (NDTV report)

But by reading through TOI and SIFY together it appears, TOI (or NDTV) is jumping the gun. ASI has not said that there is concrete proof that there is no structure below Babari too.

This is interesting to see how spinners are spinning it both ways. Best thing will be to wait for a clearer picture to emerge before passing definitive pronouncements.

Although from whatever has been found so far including TOJO radar findings and pillar bases, it does seem there was some sort of structure below Babari.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby O Vijay » 10 Jun 2003 23:30

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/02032204.htm

Pillar found in Ayodhya digs

Ayodhya, June 3. (PTI): A three-feet-long piece of a pillar In blackstone was today found during excavation being carried out by the Archaeological Survey of India at the disputed Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid site here, sources said.

The pillar, with engravings of flowers and leaves, was found in one of the trenches where a solid floor was also visible, they said.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 11 Jun 2003 01:18

Previous archaeological finds

http://www.ayodhya.com/ayotemplet.jsp?sno=15&E15=1

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/ayodhya_and_the_research_on_the_temple_of_Lord_Rama.htm

"While this evidence is strong, the archaeological evidence is still stronger. This is what Dr. S.P. Gupta (former director of the Allahabad Museum), has to say about recent excavations at Ayodhya: "At Ayodhya, Professor Lal [B.B. Lal. Former Director General of ASI] took as many as 14 trenches at different places to ascertain the antiquity of the site. It was then found that the history of the township was at least three thousand years old, if not more... When seen in the light of 20 black stone pillars, 16 of which were found re-used and standing in position as corner stones of piers for the disputed domed structure of the 'mosque', Prof. Lal felt that the pillar bases may have belonged to a Hindu temple built on archaeological levels formed prior to 13th century AD..."

On further archaeological and other evidence, Lal concluded that the pillar bases must have belonged to a Hindu temple that stood between 12th and the 16th centuries. What this means is that Lal had found evidence for possibly two temples, one that existed before the 13th century, and another between the 13th and the 16th centuries. This corresponds very well indeed with history and tradition. We know that this area was ravaged by Muslim invaders following Muhammad of Ghor's defeat of Prithviraj Chauhan in the second battle of Tarain in 1192 AD. This was apparently rebuilt and remained in use until destroyed again in the 16th century by Babar."

There is a good pictorial graphic in Outlook June 2 issue. This issue also has a collection of articles. There is a problem with posting this URL.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 11 Jun 2003 01:54

Here is the latest PTI report

Excavation: 25 more articles found
AYODHYA, JUN 10 (PTI)
Twenty-five articles, including moulded broken bricks belonging to Maurya period, were found today during excavation in ten trenches at the acquired land here.

Besides 20 moulded bricks, iron nails were found, sources said adding there was a concrete platform in a trench which is likely to be dug up in a couple of days.

Counsel for central Sunni Waqf Board Jafaryab Jilani along with three other advocates visited the excavation site today.

Four archaeologists of the Board -- Shireen Ratnagar, D Mandal, Surajbhan and Dr Sitaram Roy -- also visited the site after court gave them permission.

Jilani pointed out three-fourths of the digging of the pucca platform had been done and one-fourth was left behind.

It was believed the ASI team might try to prove it as a structural base in its report, the sources said.

There were reportedly differences in the report of Japanese group Tojo international and the excavation team regarding 15 anamolies, the sources said.

Jilani said "the ASI officials have not given correct position of the progress of digging to us", though the court has directed that transparency should be maintain in digging work.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=146822

another version of the same report

http://www.ptinews.com/createframes.asp?main=Indian&val=1&ID=

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 11 Jun 2003 06:38

How did the British fabricate and destroy the historic records of
India and misguide the whole world?

http://thetruehistoryandthereligionofindia.org/

The Divine knowledge of Hindu (Bhartiya) scriptures could
have benefited the aspirants of God of the whole world. But, the
diplomats of the British, who were ruling India in those days,
clouded this opportunity by extensively launching their deliberate
false propagation about India and its universal Hindu religion, and
not only that, they degraded Hindu culture by all means, and thus,
hampered the spiritual growth of the whole world. A fair example is
the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1854 itself in which they fed such
derogatory statements about Hindu (Bhartiya) religion.

Encyclopaedia Britannica, 8th Edition (1854), Volume XI.
Millions of Europeans have visited India and have praised the Indian
architecture. The fact is that the melody of Indian classical music
is world famous, and the most renowned historical musician, Tansen,
of Akbar's court was the disciple of Swami Haridas. But see what the
English people wrote in their encyclopedia,

"In architecture, in the fine arts, in painting and music, the
Hindus are greatly inferior to the Europeans. `The columns and
pillars,' says Tennant, `which adorn their immense pagodas, are
destitute of any fixed proportions; and the edifices themselves are
subjected to no rules of architecture.' He afterwards adds that the
celebrated mausoleum at Agra has little to boast of either in
simplicity or elegance of design."

"The music of the Hindus is rude and inharmonious. They have
numerous instruments, but those are preferred which make the most
noise." (p. 477)

The Hindu science of medicine named "Ayurved" was well established
200 years ago when modern medical technology was still developing;
and India has lots of excellent Sanskrit literature. But see what
Britannica said,

"In the medical art: charms, incantations, exorcisms and the
shallowest tricks are substituted for professional skill; and other
imposters, generally Brahmins, practise astrology, and cheat them
out of their money by pretended prophecies."

"The literature of the Hindus has been generally rated very low by
European writers, and has been represented as consisting in long
desultory poems, inflated, and extravagant in their style,
containing, under the idea of a history, a tissue of absurd fables."
(pp. 474, 477)

The topmost English literature, Beowulf, deals with dragons and
monsters, the Shakespearean drama displays the tragedies of worldly
living, and Wuthering Heights etc., expose the disappointing pains
of an ambitious mind; whereas all of the Sanskrit literature is, in
some way, related to the teachings of God and God realization.

Now see how did they degrade the universal Hindu religion and the
Hindu society, and what did they write about Shivaji who was a well
known religious, honest and ardent patriot of Hinduism who fought
for the protection of our country.

"Their religion is that of a rude people, consisting in an endless
detail of troublesome ceremonies."

"The state of morals among the Hindus is such as might be expected
from a religion so impure."

"The historical poem, the Mahabharat, is a tissue of extravagant
fables." (pp. 467, 470, 478)

"The Hindus are by no means a moral people. According to the
observation of Orme, the politics of Hindustan would afford in a
century more frequent examples of sanguinary cruelty than the whole
history of Europe since the reign of Charlemagne."
(p. 472)

"The Hindu rulers, however ignorant in other matters, thus appear to
have been familiar with all the most approved modes of plundering
their subjects. Power was here a license to plunder and oppress. The
rod of the oppressor was literally omnipresent; neither persons nor
property were secure against its persevering and vexatious
intrusions." (p. 476)

"Sevajee, the founder of this new state, was the chief of the
Rajpoot princes. In his youth he resided at Poonah, on a zemindary
estate obtained by his father. Here he collected around him a
numerous banditti, and plundered the country."
(p. 479)

Those are just a few examples. More than twelve pages of the
encyclopedia are filled with such senseless lies. Anyone who has
read the history of Europe knows about the royal disposals in the
Tower of London, and the brutal torturing and burning alive at the
stake of millions of innocent people during the Inquisitions. He
also knows about the bloody conquests of King Charlemagne who once
killed about 5,000 Saxons in one day as he enjoyed mass executions
in order to spread Christianity.

It is thus evident that the English people misguided the entire
world by giving a false image of Hinduism and the universal Hindu
religion.

Fabrication in the Bhavishya Puran.
(Bhavishya Puran, Pratisarg Parv, part 1, chapter 6)
While going through the Bhavishya Puran at one place I found some
discrepancy in the contents of the verses. Again, when I looked at
it carefully, I discovered that some of the verses are fabricated.
It was not difficult to find out as to who would have done that,
because the direct beneficiary of this fabrication was Sir William
Jones.

Jones, in his tenth presidential speech in 1793, stressed on the
period of Chandragupt Maurya to be 312 BC and mentioned that
Chandragupt had a treaty with Seleucus. The derived date of
Chandragupt in these fabricated verses comes to exactly 312 BC.
Thus, to justify his false statement of 1793, this fabrication must
have been done according to his instructions. Jones died a year
later, so it may have been done after his death.

It's a general understanding that crime always leaves some clue, but
here we have more than that. It appears that the learned pandit who
was doing this job for the people of the Asiatic Society, was doing
it under some kind of social or family pressure and against his
conscience. So he did the job and created the verses with the
desired dates, whatever they wanted, but he fully messed up the
genealogical description of Buddh and Chandragupt.

The general meaning of the verses of Chapter 6: "Sage Kashyap begot
Gautam who was Hari. Gautam introduced Buddh religion and reigned
for 10 years. His son Shakya Muni ruled for 20 years and then his
son Shuddhodan ruled for 30 years. Shuddhodan's son was Shakya Singh
who was born at the elapse of 2,700 years of kaliyug. This king was
the destroyer of Vedic religion. He ruled for 60 years and converted
everyone into Buddhism. Shakya Singh's son was Buddh Singh who ruled
for 30 years. Buddh Singh's son was Chandragupt who ruled for 60
years. His son Bindusar ruled for 60 years. Bindusar's son was
Ashok…"

Comments: These verses were fabricated by the English people. It is
an historical fact that Gautam Buddh did not rule any kingdom as he
had renounced the world, and the second thing is that he was the son
of Shuddhodan. But here Shuddhodan is shown as the grandson of
Gautam. Gautam Buddh was during the time of King Bimbsar of
Shishunag dynasty in 1800's BC. But here Buddh's time comes to 462
BC [2,700 years of kaliyug (-) 60 (10 + 20 + 30) years = 2,640, and
subtracting 2,640 years from 3102 BC, which is the beginning of
kaliyug, it comes to 462 BC] which was the desired figure by the
English people.

Another thing is, that each and every writer has accepted
Chandragupt as the son of Nand. But here Chandragupt is shown as the
son of Buddh Singh and the great-grandson of Shuddhodan (who was the
historically known father of Gautam Buddh). The actual period of
Chandragupt is 1500's BC. But here it comes to 312 BC [2,700 + (60 +
30) = 2,790]. Deducting 2,790 years, (the elapsed period of kaliyug)
from 3102 BC (the beginning of kaliyug) comes to 312 BC which was
especially desired by Jones.

From the above discussions it is thus clear that the obedient
servants of the British regime, the people of the Asiatic Society
and East India Company, fabricatingly muddled up the historic dates
of important personalities in our original records.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 11 Jun 2003 12:56

Note that Michel Danino is not a Brahmana (at least not by birth)but is of French Jewish extraction. He has made a home in TN.

Vedic Roots of Early Tamil Culture

By Michel Danino

"The historical period naturally takes us to the great Pallava, Chola and Pandya temples and to an overflowing of devotional literature by the Alwars, the Nayanmars and other seekers of the Divine who wandered over the length and breadth of the Tamil land, filling it with bhakti. But here let us just take a look at the rulers. An inscription records that a Pandya king led the elephant force in the Mahabharata War on behalf of the Pandavas, and that early Pandyas translated the epic into Tamil.[50] The first named Chera king, Udiyanjeral, is said to have sumptuously fed the armies on both sides during the War at Kurukshetra ; Chola and Pandya kings also voiced such claims—of course they may be devoid of historical basis, but they show how those kings sought to enhance their glory by connecting their lineage to heroes of the Mahabharata. So too, Chola and Chera kings proudly claimed descent from Lord Rama or from kings of the Lunar dynasty—in other words, an “Aryan” descent.

As regards religious practices, the greatest Chola king, Karikala, was a patron of both the Vedic religion and Tamil literature, while the Pandya king Nedunjelyan performed many Vedic sacrifices, and the dynasty of the Pallavas made their capital Kanchi into a great centre of Sanskrit learning and culture. K. V. Raman summarizes the “religious inheritance of the Pandyas” in these words :

The Pandyan kings were great champions of the Vedic religion from very early times.... According to the Sinnamanur plates, one of the early Pandyan kings performed a thousand velvi or yagas [Vedic sacrifices].... Though the majority of the Pandyan kings were Saivites, they extended equal patronage to the other faiths ... [and included] invocatory verses to the Hindu Trinity uniformly in all their copper-plate grants. The Pandyas patronised all the six systems or schools of Hinduism.... Their religion was not one of narrow sectarian nature but broad-based with Vedic roots. They were free from linguistic or regional bias and took pride in saying that they considered Tamil and Sanskritic studies as complementary and equally valuable.[51]

This pluralism can already be seen in the two epics Shilappadikaram and Manimekhalai, which amply testify that what we call today Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism coexisted harmoniously. “The sectarian spirit was totally absent,”[52] writes Ramachandra Dikshitar. “Either the people did not look upon religious distinctions seriously, or there were no fundamental differences between one sect and another.”[53]"

[color=red]It should now be crystal clear that anyone claiming a “separate,” “pre-Aryan” or “secular” Dravidian culture has no evidence to show for it, except his own ignorance of archaeology, numismatics and ancient Tamil literature. Not only was there never such a culture, there is in fact no meaning in the word “Dravidian” except either in the old geographical sense or in the modern linguistic sense ; racial and cultural meanings are as unscientific as they are irrational, although some scholars in India remain obstinately rooted in a colonial mindset.

The simple reality is that every region of India has developed according to its own genius, creating in its own bent, but while remaining faithful to the central Indian spirit. The Tamil land was certainly one of the most creative, and we must hope to see more of its generosity once warped notions about its ancient culture are out of the way.</font>

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 11 Jun 2003 13:20

BOOK EXCERPTS

Orality to literacy: Transition in Early Tamil Society

IRAVATHAM MAHADEVAN

From the forthcoming publication: Early Tamil Epigraphy : From the Earliest Times to the Sixth Century A.D. by Iravatham Mahadevan (Harvard Oriental Series 62), simultaneously published in India by Cre-A:, Chennai, and in U.S.A. by Harvard University, Cambridge, MA.

THE Brahmi script reached Upper South India (Andhra-Karnataka regions) and the Tamil country at about the same time during the 3rd century B.C. in the wake of the southern spread of Jainism and
Buddhism. However, the results of introduction of writing in these two regions were markedly different. The most interesting aspects of Tamil literacy, when compared with the situation in contemporary Upper South India, are: (i) its much earlier commencement; (ii) use of the local language for all purposes from the beginning; and (iii) its popular democratic character.

[Illustration] Tamil-Brahmi rock inscription of King Atan Cel Irumporai at Pugalur. 2nd century A.D. It records the endowment of a cave shelter at the investiture of the King's grandson as heir-
apparent.

Early literacy in Tamil society

The earliest Tamil inscriptions in the Tamil-Brahmi script may be dated from about the end of 3rd century or early 2nd century B.C. on palaeographic grounds and stratigraphic evidence of inscribed
pottery. The earliest inscriptions in Kannada and Telugu occur more than half a millennium later. The earliest Kannada inscription at Halmidi (Hassan district, Karnataka), is assigned to the middle of the 5th century A.D. The earliest Telugu inscription of the Renati Colas at Kalamalla in Cuddapah district of Andhra Pradesh belongs to the end of 6th century A.D.

The earliest extant Tamil literature, the Cankam works, are dated, even according to conservative estimates, from around the commencement of the Christian era. The earliest extant literary
works in Kannada and Telugu were composed almost a millennium later. The earliest known literary work in Kannada is the Kavirajamarga, written early in the 9th century A.D. and the earliest known
literary work in Telugu is the famous Mahabharata of Nannaya, composed in the middle of the 11th century A.D. It is also probable that Kavijanasraya, a work in Telugu on prosody, composed by Malliya Rechana, is about a century earlier. There were earlier literary works in Kannada and Telugu, as known from references in earlier inscriptions and later literature. But none of them are extant.

The earliest inscriptions in the Tamil country written in the Tamil-Brahmi script are almost exclusively in the Tamil language. The Tamil-Brahmi cave inscriptions are all in Tamil though with some Prakrit loanwords. There are no Prakrit stone inscriptions in the Tamil country. Coin-legends of the early period are also in Tamil (with the solitary exception of a Pantiya copper coin carrying bilingual legends both in Tamil and Prakrit).

Seal-texts are also in Tamil (with the exception of a seal impression on clay in Prakrit found at Arikamedu and a few gold rings with Prakrit legends from Karur). Inscribed pottery found at
various ancient Tamil sites is mostly in Tamil, with a few exceptions in Prakrit confined to cities or ports like Kanchipuram and Arikamedu. In contrast, during the same period, all early
inscriptions from Upper South India on stone, copper plates, coins, seals and pottery are exclusively in Prakrit and not in Kannada or Telugu, which were the spoken languages of this region.

Popular versus elitist literacy

Another noteworthy feature of early Tamil literacy was its popular or democratic character, based as it was on the language of the people. Literacy seems to have been widespread in all the regions of the Tamil country, both in urban and rural areas, and encompassing within its reach all strata of the Tamil society. The primary evidence for this situation comes from inscribed pottery, relatively more numerous in Tamil Nadu than elsewhere in the country. As mentioned earlier, excavations or explorations of several ancient Tamil sites have yielded hundreds of inscribed sherds, almost all in Tamil, written in the Tamil-Brahmi script. The inscribed sherds are
found not only in urban and commercial centres like Karur, Kodumanal, Madurai and Uraiyur and ports like Alagankulam, Arikamedu and Korkai, but also in obscure hamlets like Alagarai and
Poluvampatti, attesting to widespread literacy. The pottery inscriptions are secular in character and the names occurring in them indicate that common people from all strata of Tamil society
made these scratchings or scribblings on pottery owned by them. On the other hand, inscribed pottery excavated from Upper South Indian sites are all in Prakrit and mostly associated with religious centres like Amaravati and Salihundam.

Literacy is not merely the acquisition of reading and writing skills. To be meaningful and creative, literacy has to be based on one's mother tongue. In this sense, the early Tamil society had achieved true literacy with a popular base rooted in the native language. On the other hand, Upper South India had in this period only elitist literacy based on Prakrit and not the native languages of the region.

What are the reasons for such contrasting developments between the two adjoining regions of South India? It cannot be that Prakrit was the spoken language of Upper South India at any time. If proof were needed to show that Kannada and Telugu were the spoken languages of the region during the early period, one needs only to study the large number of Kannada and Telugu personal names and place names in the early Prakrit inscriptions on stone and copper in Upper South India. The Gatha Saptasati, a Prakrit anthology composed by Hala of the Satavahana dynasty in about the 1st century A.D., is said to contain about 30 Telugu words. Nor can it be said that Kannada and Telugu had not developed into separate languages during the Early Historical Period. Dravidian linguistic studies have established that Kannada and Telugu (belonging to different branches of Dravidian) had emerged as distinct languages long before the period we are dealing with. Telugu and Kannada were spoken by relatively large and well-settled populations, living in well-organised states ruled by able dynasties like the Satavahanas, with a high degree of civilisation as attested by Prakrit inscriptions and literature of the period, and great architectural monuments like those at
Amaravati and Nagarjunakonda. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that these languages had less rich or less expressive oral traditions than Tamil had towards the end of its pre-literate
period.

Literacy and political independence

The main reason for the contrasting developments in the growth of literacy as between the two regions appears to be the political independence of the Tamil country and its absence in Upper South India during the relevant period. Upper South India was incorporated in the Nanda-Maurya domain even before the beginning of the literate period. Asoka specifically lists Andhra among the territories included within his domains in his thirteenth rock edict. The region was, therefore, administered through the medium of Prakrit, which was the language of the rulers and also became the language of the local ruling elite, of learning and instruction, and of public discourse, as clearly shown by the presence of Asoka's Prakrit edicts in the region. This situation persisted even when the Mauryas were succeeded by local rulers, the Satavahanas, and later by their
successors like the Ikshvakus, Kadambas, Salankayanas, Vishnukundins and Pallavas. It would have been in the interest of the ruling elite to protect their privileges by perpetuating the hegemony of Prakrit in order to exclude the common people from sharing power. Persian in the Mughal Empire and English in British India (and even after Independence) offer instructive parallels to this situation.

The situation in the Tamil country during the early period was entirely different. The Tamil country was never a part of the Nanda-Maurya empires. The Tamil states, Cera, Cola and Pantiya, and even their feudatories like the (Satiyaputra) Atiyamans maintained their political independence as acknowledged by Asoka himself in his second rock edict in which he refers to them as his `borderers'. As a direct result of political independence, Tamil remained the language of administration, of learning and instruction, and of public discourse throughout the Tamil country. When writing became known to the Tamils, the Brahmi script was adapted and modified to suit the Tamil phonetic system. That is, while the Brahmi script was borrowed, the Prakrit language was not allowed to be imposed along with it from outside. When the Jaina and Buddhist monks entered the
Tamil country, they found it expedient to learn Tamil in order to carry on their missionary activities effectively. An apt parallel is the case of the European Christian missionaries in India during the colonial period, who mastered the local languages to preach the gospel to the masses.

Facilitating factors for spread of literacy in early Tamil society

Apart from political independence and the use of the mother tongue, there were also several other factors facilitating the spread of literacy in early Tamil society. Of the factors which will be
briefly discussed here, the first three were inherent features of early Tamil society and the next three were new elements from outside which influenced the spread of early literacy in the Tamil
country.

[Illustration] Pottery inscription in Tamil-Brahmi giving the name Catan. 1st century A.D. Found at Quseir-al-Qadim on the Red Sea coast of Egypt.

(i) The presence of a strong bardic tradition: Bards were so much respected in early Tamil society that they could move from court to court across the political barriers even when the princes were at war. The oral bardic tradition, which must have been rich and expressive even in the pre-literate era, flowered into the written poetry of the Cankam Age with the availability of writing under the active patronage of the Tamil princes, chieftains and nobles.

(ii) The absence of a priestly hierarchy: There was no priestly hierarchy in early Tamil society with vested interest in maintaining the oral tradition or discouraging writing after its advent. (It was the presence of such a priestly hierarchy in early Brahmanical Hinduism in North India that prevented Sanskrit from being recorded in inscriptions for about four centuries after the introduction of the Brahmi script. Prakrit inscriptions are available from the time of Asoka in the middle of the 3rd century B.C. The earliest Sanskrit inscription of consequence is the rock inscription of Rudradaman dated in the middle of the 2nd century A.D.) Learning does not seem
to have been the prerogative of any particular class like the scribes or priests. This is clearly shown by the wide diversity in the social status of the nearly five hundred poets of the Cankam
Age, among whom were princes, monks, merchants, bards, artisans and common people. Quite a few of them were women. We have earlier noticed the evidence of the inscribed sherds for widespread literacy in the rural areas and among the common people.

(iii) A strong tradition of local autonomy: Reference to self-governing village councils like ampalam, potiyil and manram in Cankam literature and to merchant guilds (nigama) in the Tamil-
Brahmi records show that there was a long tradition of strong local self-government in the Tamil society. In such an environment, literacy would have received special impetus as it would serve to
strengthen local self-government institutions and merchant guilds.

(iv) The spread of Jainism and Buddhism: As mentioned earlier, knowledge of writing was brought to the Tamil country, as to the rest of South India, in the wake of the spread of Jainism and
Buddhism to these regions. As protestant movements against Vedic Brahmanical Hinduism, these faiths kept away from Sanskrit in the initial phase and conducted their missionary activities in North
India in the local Prakrit dialects. The monks followed the same tradition in the Tamil country, learning the local language and, in the process, adapting the Brahmi script to its needs. They had no vested interest in maintaining the oral traditions nor any bias against writing down their scriptures in the local language. As a result of this attitude, the Jaina scholars (and to a lesser extent, the Buddhist scholars) made rich contribution to the development of Tamil literature during the Cankam Age and for centuries thereafter. A similar development did not take place in Upper South India in the early period presumably because Prakrit was already the language of
administration and public discourse in the region. The monks who were familiar with Prakrit had perhaps no opportunity or incentive to change over to the local languages in this region.

(v) Foreign trade: The Tamil country, with its long coastlines, carried on extensive trade during the Cankam Age with Rome and the Mediterranean countries in the west and with Sri Lanka and Southeast Asian countries in the east. Trade with Rome brought in not only wealth (as attested by numerous Roman coin-hoards in the Tamil country) but also early contacts with other literate societies using alphabetic scripts. Recent excavations of Roman settlements on the
Red Sea coast of Egypt have brought to light a few inscribed sherds with Tamil names written in the Tamil-Brahmi script of about the 1st century A.D. An ancient papyrus document written in Greek and
datable in the 2nd century A.D. in a museum at Vienna has been identified as a contract for shipment of merchandise from Muciri to Alexandria. While the document itself is not in Tamil, one can infer from it the milieu of advanced literacy in Tamil society whose merchants could enter into such trading contracts.

A democratic, quasi-alphabetic script

The Tamil-Brahmi script is a quasi-alphabetic script with just 26 characters (8 vowels and 18 consonants). The enormous importance of such a simple, easy-to-learn script in the spread and
democratisation of literacy can hardly be overestimated. Palm leaf as a writing surface was also a happy choice, as in the semi-arid Tamil countryside it is abundant, perennial and virtually free. Palm leaf and the iron stylus radically altered the ductus of the script from the angular Brahmi to the round Vatteluttu in the course of a few centuries.

The consequences of literacy in early Tamil society

There is little doubt that literacy transformed the early Tamil society in several ways yet to be fully evaluated. A preliminary listing of changes can be as follows.

(i) Transformation of tribal chieftaincies into states with more centralised administration; levy of taxes and tributes properly accounted for; and external relations based on written
communications like treaties and trade contracts.

(ii) Urbanisation of royal capitals, port towns and commercial centres.

(iii) Temple administration based on written records, including inscriptions.

(iv) Increased foreign trade as evidenced by the occurrence of Tamil inscriptions in the Tamil-Brahmi script in Roman settlements in Egypt to the west and Thailand to the east.

(v) Democratisation of society and strengthening of local rule, which came about with widespread literacy based on a simple quasi-alphabetic script and with the mother tongue as the language of
administration, learning and public discourse.

(vi) An early efflorescence of Tamil language and literature leading to the truly great epoch of the `Cankam Age' almost a thousand years before any other regional language in South India reached that level of development.

The author

The author Iravatham Mahadevan (b. 1930) is a specialist in Indian epigraphy, especially in the fields of Indus and Brahmi scripts. He was awarded the Jawaharlal Nehru Fellowship in 1970 for his research on the Indus script and the National Fellowship of the Indian Council of Historical Research in 1992 for his work on the Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions.

His book, The Indus Script: Texts, Concordance and Tables (1977) is recognised internationally as a major source book for research in the Indus script. He has also published Corpus of the Tamil-Brahmi Inscriptions (1966), besides numerous papers on several aspects of the Indus and Tamil-Brahmi scripts.

He has served as the Coordinator, International Association of Tamil Research, for 10 years (1980-90). He was elected the President of the Annual Congress of the Epigraphical Society of India in 1998 and the General President of the Indian History Congress for its session in 2001. He served the Indian Administrative Service and retired voluntarily to devote himself to full-time academic pursuits. He lives in Chennai.

The book

The book Early Tamil Epigraphy is the first definitive edition of the earliest Tamil inscriptions in the Tamil-Brahmi and Early Vatteluttu scripts, dating from ca. second century B.C. to sixth
century A.D. The book is based on the author's extensive fieldwork carried out in two spells between 1962-66 and 1991-1996. The study deals comprehensively with the epigraphy, language and contents of the inscriptions. The texts are given in transliteration with translation and an extensive word by word commentary. The inscriptions are illustrated with tracings made directly from the stone, estampages and direct photographs. Palaeography of Tamil-Brahmi and Early Vatteluttu scripts is described in detail with the help of letter charts. The special orthographic and grammatical features of the earliest Tamil inscriptions are described in this work for the first time. A glossary of inscriptional words and several classified word lists have been added to aid further research. The introductory chapters deal with the discovery and decipherment of the inscriptions, relating their language and contents to early Tamil literature and society. The recently discovered Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions on pottery and objects like coins, seals, rings, etc., have also been utilised to present a more complete picture of early Tamil epigraphy.

http://www.flonnet.com/fl2007/stories/20030411001208100.htm
See two images of epigraphs on potsherds at this URL.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby babuji » 11 Jun 2003 14:13

we have already extensively discussed this in the dravidian politics thread. Most of what you quote (sudarshan) is literature, which I am loath to discuss in the history thread.

Maybe we need a new thread for literature and cultural studies, where we can discuss this much.

just one tiny point though. Ashoka was "discovered " only in the 1920's that does not mean ashoka is the creation of british evildoers bent on seperating buddhists from hindus in India...or does it?

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Guest » 11 Jun 2003 14:27

Originally posted by babuji:
we have already extensively discussed this in the dravidian politics thread. Most of what you quote (sudarshan) is literature, which I am loath to discuss in the history thread.

Maybe we need a new thread for literature and cultural studies, where we can discuss this much.

just one tiny point though. Ashoka was "discovered " only in the 1920's that does not mean ashoka is the creation of british evildoers bent on seperating buddhists from hindus in India...or does it?
Well, I was really responding to the previous two posts in this thread, re the bardic tradition in TN, and the patronage of both Vedic and Tamil literature by Tamil kings, etc. Maybe I should have posted it in the Dravidian politics thread, maybe I shouldn't have posted it at all. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Sudarshan

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 11 Jun 2003 19:20

just one tiny point though. Ashoka was "discovered " only in the 1920's that does not mean ashoka is the creation of british evildoers bent on seperating buddhists from hindus in India...or does it?

Where did you come up with this beauty ? It was Sir William Jones in 1790's who discovered Asoka for the British, and of course Buddhists (and Hindus)in India and SL have known about Asoka long before then.

Even so, in all likelihood, the Brits made a mistake in 'their discovery'. There is considerable controversy about the actual date of the Buddha and Asoka and there is reason to believe that both lived considerably before the 5th and 3rd century BC and that the commonly accepted date of Asoka is a creation of the British(see 3 posts earlier in this thread).

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 11 Jun 2003 20:30

In one of the original history threads (which were unceremoniously deleted for reasons other than length) a couple of years ago, we remarked on the history of the Gypsies (also known as the Roma in Europe). The surmise was made that they were escaped slaves and survivors from the slave caravans of Mohammad Ghazni.

Incidentally the name of the town Ghaziabad, near Delhi, is derived from Ghazi and mean the town where many infidels were killed.

Excerpts from Roma by WR Rishi
ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD "GAJO"

"Roma have originated from the north of India. This has been proved sufficiently by linguistic evidences and many other factors and has now been accepted by scholars all over the world. Roma are Rajputs and Jats of India or men and women of India belonging to warrior classes whose ancestors migrated from India about a thousand years ago. Besides linguistic proofs I have used blood tests and cultural affinities as further evidences. So it is clear that. only the history of India can give us the answer why the word 'Gajo' should convey a sense of hatred and contempt.

The word Gajo or Gaze is the changed form of word Ghazi and with Rajasthani and Braj influence it has changed into Gazho or 'Gajo' where masculine, singular adjectives end in 'o' e.g. kalo (black), baro (big) etc. etc. This was in India that a king named Mahmud Ghazni (Mahniud Ghaznvid) came and attacked India about seventeen times between 1001-1026 A.D. Mahmud Ghazni ruled from Ghazni, a city in Afghanistan. The Kingdom of Ghazni at the time of Mahmud's accession consisted of the country called Afghanistan and Khorason, the eastern province of Persia. The people of this kingdom were also called Ghazis. The famous historian of India Dr. Ishwari Prasad has remarked "to the Mussalman of his day he was a Ghazi who tried to exterminate infidelity in heathen lands". Mahmud Ghaznvi's first attack was in 1001 near Peshawar and he took away with him as many as 500,000 people as slaves. Many more fled from their homes. In his subsequent attack more atrocities and cruelties were laid on Indian people. It is said about him that "he came, burnt, killed, plundered, captured and went".

For Muslims of his day he was Ghazi meaning a Mohammadan warrior, a slayer of infidels. The word Ghazi has become Ghazo or Gajo in the Romani language and is used to denote a non-Rom, non-Gypsy, a stranger as also a bad and dangerous nation (masculine adj. have endings in 'o' in the Romani language, because of Rajasthani influence). In his last attack in 1026 he faced Jats from the Panjab. Those were the people who left their homes because of terror of Mahmud and became Gypsies or Roma in foreign lands. They developed a natural hatred for Ghazi, and that is why they called every non-Gypsy a 'Gajo' who had tortured and oppressed them. In fact Mr. A.P. Barannikov in his Romani-Russian Dictionary has given the meaning of the word 'Gazbaiben' as 'theft, stealing or plundering, All this is clearly proved by the above fact. "

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby babuji » 11 Jun 2003 21:45

Where did you come up with this beauty ?
stanley wolpert, history of India.(chapter on the maurya empire.)

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 12 Jun 2003 00:24

This is a misleading headline. If you read the text you get a different picture altogether.

No evidence yet of structure at disputed site, says ASI

Press Trust of India

In a significant development in the ongoing excavation at the acquired land at Ayodhya, the Archaeological Survey of India has said in its progress report that no structural anomalies suggesting evidence of any structure under the demolished Babri mosque had been found in 15 of the new trenches dug up at the site.but what about the other trenches ?

The report submitted to the special bench of the Lucknow bench of the Allahabad High Court on Tuesday said that the Tojo Vikas International Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) survey had pointed out structural anomalies at the disputed site but the excavation in 15 new trenches did not confirm to the Tojo survey, sources in Lucknow said on Wednesday.

Structural anomalies were, however, detected in 15 other trenches, the report said.

The ASI has in its earlier report submitted to the court in April last sought permission of the court to undertake digging in 30 new trenches.

The ASI had so far carried out excavation work in 72 trenches, of which 30 trenches were dug after taking permission of the High Court.

The progress report said that the anomalies indicated in the GPR survey report were either confirmed or partially confirmed in 15 of the new trenches while they were not detected in the other 15 trenches.IOW 0+1 = 1 and not 0

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 12 Jun 2003 00:34

stanley wolpert, history of India.(chapter on the maurya empire.)

If you have the exact quote I would appreciate it. The reason i ask is that the Buddhist texts mentioning Asoka were known to Sir William Jones in the 1790's, who hired Indian pandits to teach him the content of the many ancient texts in Pali and Samskrtam. In 1837 James Prinsep deciphered the edicts on the Asoka pillar. So, the 1920's date makes no sense. The Asoka Pillar in Delhi itself was rediscovered (to the European world) by an Englishman by the name of Thomas Coryat in 1616. Of course the people who lived in Delhi were aware of it all along. I believe it was Qutb ud din Aibak who moved the delhi Pillar from Meerut.

http://www.geocities.com/ranajitda/askpilar.html

"After the middle ages one of the first westerners to notice the Asokan pillars was the Englishman Thomas Coryat who came to Delhi in 1616. Coryat was greatly impressed by the superbly polished forty feet high monolithic column and presumed that it must have been erected by Alexander the Great 'in token of his victorie' over Porus. In Coryat's time the script of the inscriptions in the pillar was undeciphered but today, thanks to Prinsep, we know that it contains an inscription of Asoka; yet there is more to it than meets the eye. We know that many of Asoka's pillars were not erected by him."


In any event just because the Brits were ignorant of Asoka prior to the 1790's doesnt mean the Indians were.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby babuji » 12 Jun 2003 02:40

Kaushal, I'll get back to you with chapter and verse,

but my point was that dravidian culture as a distinct entity exists irrespective of anyone's attempt to cast it as anything, wether the british, the Aryan culture apologists, the tamil seperatists or any one else.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Sanjay Joshi » 12 Jun 2003 03:25

There's this Paki Shia I work with. Today he gleefully sends me these links on email with the heading "Disappointment".

I had to explain it to him that no one really cared whether they find pieces of an old temple of not. What was important was that the Hindus of India consider Ayodhya to be sacred ground and consider that spot to be the birthplace of Lord Ram. That was it. To give him an example, I told him that muslims consider Kaaba to be descended from Heaven. How can anyone show archaeological proof that it was'nt just lying there for all history? Similarly the rock in the "Dome of the Rock" could just be a plane old rock, what makes it special is the people's feelings about it.

Surprisingly, he understood and agreed without a word. But then, he is a Shia and a minority in Pakistan, so he could be a Paki Hindu without it making a difference! :D

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 12 Jun 2003 04:01

Sanjay, while what you say is true, it is not true that the ASI has said that there was No evidence of a prior structure. Pl. look at the graphic in the Outlook article of June 2 to get a mental picture of what has been found and what hasnt.

crossposted from IC

The 'report' actually says that there is no sign of a 'temple',
although there is partial to conclusive evidence in 15/30 NEW
trenches (total trenches dug up is 72) of a pre-existing structure at
the site.

In the 42 trenches dug up earlier, the results were similar. There
was some evidence of pillar bases belonging to a pre-Babri structure
from some of these 42 trenches as well. This is why the Courts of Law
extended the period of excavations, so that some more evidence might
be unearthed.

The ASI report means that it is UNCLEAR if the pre-existing structure
was a temple or not. The report takes into account ONLY the evidence
from the 72 trenches.

When this evidence is taken into account together with the 250 odd
artifacts unearthed from between the walls of Babri, it is possible
to conclude the opposite, viz. the Babri replaced a pre-existing
temple at the site.

In the Indian media reports of the last two days themselves, one can
read diametrically opposite reports. Thus, Sify.com highlights the
existence of a structure below Babri, Rediff.com. IExpress and TOI
highlight that there is no temple. The BBC used even the latter set
of reports selectively (because the TOI report at least mentioned
that 15/30 new trenches had some pillar bases) and gave its own spin.

The ASI itself has NOT made its report public, to my knowledge,
because the court order clearly states that the report cannot be made
public before it is considered by the judges. The media reports are
all based on a press briefing made by Zarfaryab Jeelani and other
officials of AIBMAC at Lucknow two days back. The organization has
hired 4 'independent' archaeologists, whose stance on political
issues, as well as their association with political/social
organizations that are left of the center, are too well known to need
further comment. Suffice it to say that some of these 4 are
professional Hindu haters.

Vishal

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kumar » 12 Jun 2003 09:23

My opinion about Ayodhya excavation:

It appears that ASI excavation at Ayodhya may not be able to change the status quo. ASI has been asked (IIRC) to tell the court whether a temple existed below Babari mosque or not. There is some evidence of a structure and some circumstantial evidence.
(Outlook Picture).

But IMHO this is not going to be enough to let ASI claim in the high court that it has conclusive evidence that there was a temple there.

If ASI were to be asked, can it prove that there was no temple there, I believe ASI will have the same difficulty. It can't say for sure that there was no temple there either.

It appears that unless some more dramatic finds appear, court will not be able to come to a clear conclusion which religious group should get the land. I don't know whether the high court can prohibit any religious construction on the site if it doesn't reach a conclusion or not. But I believe it has been asked merely to judge on the ownership issue.

In that case it will be back to the politicians. With some evidence of a structure underneath, VHP has gained quite a bit of fire power. Parliamentary elections are already looming large. This has the potential to again become an election issue.

Even if we assume that the court actually gives a clear ownership judgement in favour of one of the religious groups, is that judgement really going to solve the problem?

An out of the box soulution seems to be the only hope.

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Kaushal » 12 Jun 2003 12:49

New online books by K S Lal

The following two books by K S Lal are now available online

Indian Muslims: Who are They ?
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/imwat/

Muslim Slave System in Medieval India
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/mssmi/

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Re: Indian History Discussions - III

Postby Rahul Mehta » 12 Jun 2003 17:35

Originally posted by SanjayJ:
There's this Paki Shia I work with. Today he gleefully sends me these links on email with the heading "Disappointment".

No proof found for temple at babri masjid place
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/news/030611_babri_mosque_rizvi.shtml

Gujral's statement
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/news/021129_babri_ik_gujral.shtml

I had to explain it to him that no one really cared whether they find pieces of an old temple of not. What was important was that the Hindus of India consider Ayodhya to be sacred ground and consider that spot to be the birthplace of Lord Ram. That was it. ...
So dont you agree that History is useless?

-Rahul Mehta


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