Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Prof Raghu
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Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Prof Raghu » 30 Apr 2003 02:29

Got this in the mail -- wonder if this was written by a BR member (the first name is identical to that of a BR member).

Seems to make sense. Also, we may want to start collecting references from Business publications of earlier years to buttress the point.

______________________________

You've quite possibly heard about the resolution initially passed by the House, in the US Congress; the one that banned France, Russia, Germany and Syria from getting contracts in the rebuilding of Iraq. Eventually, it did not get through the Senate, but what most of us did not see was that an amendment to add China's name to the list got voted down without any consideration at all. What do you think would have happened, if India's name had been on the list?

I'm not certain, but, I'm sure all of us can make a pretty good guess; after all, CNN thought well enough about China's business environment to do a multi-part series on it, business magazines fall over themselves to do cover stories on China's extraordinary growth and recently, on MSNBC Jack Welch was drooling about new opportunities in China. Notice no one is talking about China's handing out nukes to any old mad dictator that comes along or that China busily set up Iraq's command and control links.

All the while, we Indian Americans have a panic attack trying to defend ourselves against the latest allegations of state terrorism by Pakistan or every third week face an article or two about how these brown South Asians should be denuked, since we couldn't possibly understand how dangerous these bombs could be. May be once in a while we get a news report or two on IITs, or an article on how IT jobs are going to India, but most of the focus talks about dangerous flashpoints, Kashmir, Hindu fundamentalists and what not.

I'm quite sure that there is some truth to all this - there always is, but India of today is not just about this!! Just walk into any research lab in the US, count the number of Indians - chances are, you'll find more Indian Americans than anyone else. Look up the startups in the last 5 years in Silicon Valley - 60% of the time, you'll find Indian Americans in the founding team. Survey any Fortune 500 company, almost certainly you'll find them sending their operations off-shore to India and quite possibly you'll find an Indian American or two in the board-room. So, how widely is all this known; for example, do people know that:

**Over the past seven years, John Levack, Asia managing director for British venture-capital firm Electra Partners, has taken in $54 million in profits on his Indian investments. Earlier this year, he wound up his venture in China in frustration after making just $1 million on an investment of $4 million. That's not a bad return, but far below expectations for pure venture capitalists who don't bet unless they think they can at least double their money. "Our sole experience in China, though ultimately marginally profitable for us, was a disappointment," says Levack.

**Moser Baer has clocked up an 11-fold return in just four years--have more than doubled in value, from $35 million to $86 million as of the end of October.

**During the Anthrax scare of 2001, the first country that the US turned to was India to acquire "Ciproxin Ciprofloxacin" - one of the few known medications for the disease. Similarly, the mysterious virus of SARS has increased demand for macrolides, resulting in severely affected countries like China approaching the Indian pharmaceutical companies for additional supplies of macrolides, a family of antibiotics that treat a wide range of bacterial infections.

**India has become the first country in the world to produce seamless calandria tubes used in nuclear reactors, with the Nuclear Fuel Complex developing the equipment after years of research. The calandria tubes are seam-welded elsewhere in the world. Canadian nuclear scientists, who have been observing the nuclear research in India, have now decided to go in for the seamless technology in calandria tubes after the breakthrough achieved by the NFC.

**An entire gigabit switch fabric ASIC used in a gig-ethernet switching product has been designed in Cisco India. The whole deal, not just a part.

The question isn't whether you or I know these facts or even whether the American media has reported on this, but how many Americans associate India with the above? Do you think that most Americans associate India with the above facts and not with stereotypical cows on roads scene or the Pakistan-Kashmir nuclear conflict? How many Americans will remember in the recent past, CBS has done two shows on South Asian educational institutions, the first one focused on the most visible educational institutions of Pakistan, that is, Binori and Haqqania madrassas, with their noxious connection to jihad; while, the second show was on India's IITs with the deduced conclusion that they might well be better than Harvard and Princeton? But, is this the association that Americans make when they think (if they do so at all) about India.

I can bet you though, that when they think of China, they remember that it's where most of their TVs and toys now get manufactured; they know about its advanced manufacturing, huge markets and growing trade with the US. Some probably may think about the whole democracy thing or lack thereof - but, what do they focus on ultimately?

There is after all, not that much difference between China's technological prowess and India's; in fact, even though they may beat us on labor laws and taxation, in terms of creativity one might put Indian man-power ahead; but does the world know about this? China, however has built a very different image for itself than India has, primarily, through its lobbying and marketing. China could have focused on Taiwan issues in its lobbying, but it didn't. Never ever will you hear the Tibet issues raised anywhere in the US or a whole lot said about Taiwan or for that matter, anything much said about China's tendency to hand out nuclear weapons to rogue nations. Yes, China has a larger economy, but China has had this image in the mid-nineties, when its economy was not much larger than India's current GDP.

While China is doing all this, what do we do? We complain loudly about being equated with Pakistan, about being unfairly cornered on nuclear weapons and of course end up fighting endlessly amongst ourselves about Hindutva or not to Hindutva. Most of us do - not all, but most us do this; but who cares?? Remember, if we say Pakistan is responsible for the killings in Kashmir, Pakistan will immediately pay some one to fake injury from Indian shelling - hard to win this battle isn't it!! But, suppose we take Siemens/Agilent executivess to Andhra Pradesh and show them how interconnected telematics is being used to reduce fuel consumption in APSRTC buses - for the first time in the world. What if we take them to IIT Bombay and show them, how the joint IIT-Microsoft research is going on? Better still take them to HAL and show them the range of aircrafts and technologies we're building. Have we not changed the equation?

Suppose, instead of taking senators, reporters and legislators to Kashmir occasionally, let us:

**take them to the GE medical R&D lab in B'lore - invite Bristol Meyers Squibb executives

**the HP services center that builds cutting-edge telecommunication software for some of the largest telecommunications companies in the world - invite 3Comm executives

**show them ISRO, with whom L&T is planning to manufacture

**walk them through HAL - invite struggling Boeing's execs

Show them once, show them again and when they've seen it, show them again. Guess what! *We've just changed the equation*.

But, are we ready to CHANGE THE EQUATION? We tend to fret and fuss, whenever someone brings up the issue of Kashmir and India in a negative light. Not that we should not react to such misrepresentations. We must. However, much more harmful strategic decisions that affect India economically do not draw any reaction at all. Recently, a legislator from New Hampshire got a resolution passed against Indian presence in Kashmir. Since then, many Indian Americans spent countless hours writing to this legislator, in an effort to change his mind. On the other hand, GE which was gung-ho about its investments in India in the mid-nineties, has recently decided to make most of its investments in China. The question is how many of us stayed up all night, writing up petitions to Jeff Immelt or how many of us have called the embassy of India to figure out what went wrong in this case? For all we know, the Jeff Immelt decision may in time, have much more significance than the one by a no-name legislator from New Hampshire. But, we were not ready to define ourselves, with this bigger more complete view of what India really is.

If we do not change this equation, we will never win - WE MUST CHANGE THE EQUATION. Otherwise, 5 years from now even with an economy 10 or 15 times the size of Pakistan, the State Department will happily equate a failed terrorist state with a country that is on its way to becoming the *intellectual/technology center of the world*; and, it will be our fault.

So, what are we waiting for?

Let's, now get to specifics:

First, lets NOT start yet-another US-India organization - there are enough of those and they're doing just fine. What makes more sense at this stage is a loose-knitting of individuals, groups and organizations US-wide that can collaborate on a few specific goals and carry out simple, independent activities to help achieve those goals.

The strategic goals for such efforts within the US should be:

1. Change Brand India - Project an image of India that highlights India's *unique creative, highly talented* man-power. Show people that the second center of innovation in the world after Silicon Valley, CA is Bangalore/Hyderabad. Show people, that India's main claim to fame aren't cows on roads, Kashmir, cheap labor or our proficiency in English, but the *creativity that will bring the next generation of innovations*.

2. Facilitate better business environment for US businesses in India - show US business managers why India is the place to invest for manufacturing and not China; if this means we have to call the BJP office in Ahmedabad, Delhi or Chennai to work around red-tape then so be it.

The activities that we, as a loose network of individuals with India's interests at heart, could work together on, include:

**Inform Indian Americans in the US regularly about good news from India

**Inform US businesses about India the technology/intellectual center, and not just a place to deflect operational price-pressures

**Create a stream of publications and reports on India's intellectual, industrial and technology achievements

**Organize trips for reporters, legislators and businessmen to see the new India, perhaps with the help of the Indian embassy/consulates

**Inform business men in the US that if they feel there are too many stumbling blocks in India, we can help

**Push for better educational opportunities for 2nd or 3rd generations Indians in India

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Cybaru » 30 Apr 2003 02:37

Originally posted by Sriman:
Got this in the mail -- wonder if this was written by a BR member (the first name is identical to that of a BR member).

**An entire gigabit switch fabric ASIC used in a gig-ethernet switching product has been designed in Cisco India. The whole deal, not just a part.
Rudra, didn't you point this out several days ago ?

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 30 Apr 2003 03:01

.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Cybaru » 30 Apr 2003 03:06

Okay Mr Smug expression on the face, did you write this piece ?

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Sagar » 30 Apr 2003 04:04

Your assumption is that the mistaken impression about India exists because of ignorance. Hence more information can correct it. Your assumption may be wrong.

Also, reality cannot be shaped. But perceptions can be shaped. Your focus on shaping perceptions gives the audience more credit than due. Why do you care what I think of you? Reminds me of line in Gandhi:

Barrister (in SA): Mr. Gan Dye, who do you think you are?

Gandhi: In India we don't think who we are, we know who we are.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Prof Raghu » 30 Apr 2003 04:11

OK, if Rudra brought this out, good -- but why didn't you start a thread, Mr. RS? I think it is important enought to deserve its own life.

What I am looking for are references where we can back up -- or refute -- the claims about positive publicity for China.

By the way, I did not (and do not) read the Left, Right thread, so if it appeared there it got submerged.

More generally, I think the notion of shaping perceptions about India is sufficiently important -- and if at least some get into acting on such notions, then it is all for the good.

(By the way, the first name on the email I got started with an "a")

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Kaushal » 30 Apr 2003 05:40

Arindam banerji. I posted this in the India US thread also and asked the same question in one of the threads in the strategic forum. But the arindam in BR has not acknowledged he is/is not the one.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 30 Apr 2003 07:35

I didnt write it. But I hold no copyright on
what I post here and any traveller can pick it
up.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby chola » 30 Apr 2003 08:07

As an American desi I agreed with many of the points in the letter such as making Americans aware of the investment and market potentials in India.

But as someone with a Chinese girlfriend for many years, I also see the side that the letter totally ignores and which I, for one, am glad we don't get as much attention as China or Chinese-Americans.

Never ever will you hear the Tibet issues raised anywhere in the US or a whole lot said about Taiwan or for that matter, anything much said about China's tendency to hand out nuclear weapons to rogue nations.
These are actually the best examples of the opposite. Both Tibet and Taiwan are far bigger issues in the US than Kashmir. Most Americans assume that China is America's rival, if not outright enemy. Taiwan and Tibet are both emotional issues on American campuses and in Congress that further the view that China is a potential enemy. The truth is Kashmir is hardly ever mentioned. I must know less than a handful of white Americans who know anything about Kashmir.

You don't have a Richard Gere or the Beastie Boys campaigning for Assam. There is a large number of American Congressmen who argue in favor of Taiwan against China. This is shown by the fact that Taiwan have access to the latest American weapons including Aegis and Amraam. Imagine Pakistan having the same access.

Most Americans know about Chinese involvement with North Korea and Pakistan through American media.

Eventually, it did not get through the Senate, but what most of us did not see was that an amendment to add China's name to the list got voted down without any consideration at all. What do you think would have happened, if India's name had been on the list?
That India's name is never on such lists speaks volumes. Do you want us to be on such a list?

Think about this carefully.

The Lee spy case dominated front page news for months until it was thrown out of court for lack of evidence. This tarnished all Chinese-Americans. Was that good press coverage and was it something we want too?

The EP-3 incident dominated front page news for weeks. It wasn't fun for my girlfriend or her relatives during that period. Was that good press coverage and was it something we want?

SARS is dominating front page news now. Anyone Chinese is suspect of being carrier. The business at America Chinatowns have basically crashed. Is that good press coverage and is it something we want?

It is far better to be ignored than in full glair of the US media.

China is the most disliked and feared nation in America. It is also at the same time the most interesting foreign country to them. This is no different than the USSR was to Americans during the Cold War.

The United States has a publicized nuclear contingency plan for China like they did during Cold War for the USSR. It also plans actively for war in the Taiwan Strait.

Do we really want India to be treated by America in the same way?

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Anindya » 30 Apr 2003 14:51

Seems like an interesting thread!!

Kaushal - Yes, I did write that article.

Rudra - Apologies for not letting you know, that I intended to use the data you'd posted.

Chola - I started thinking about this note a few months ago. Quite a few of the people who've been working tirelessly for several years to improve US-INdia relationships seemed and are very frustrated. They feel let down by the State Department and frustrated that even after years of lobbying, it seems that India does not seem to have enough leverage in the US. These are people who spend significant portions of their lives pushing Indian causes here and I felt that I could help in a small way, by trying out something slightly different.

To give you a better idea, I'm attaching a note (see below) that I received from one such person, who has seen my article.

I am aware of the situations that you mentioned regarding China (although, I must admit that I do not have your perspective), but even after the EP-3 incident, there was no arbitrary punishment of China; as was the case with India last year, when travel advisories did affect our economy. The SD is so tone deaf to Indian concerns that 2 days after the Nadimarg massacare, they annoounced a $1B aid-package to TSP.

If ever the US were to consider some punitive steps against China, some of the senior-most senators like Nancy Pelosi (from a state with a critical number of electorates) will be all over the SD. We have nowehere near this kind of support.

Here's the note that I promised ...



I know you have been a tireless crusader of better Indo-US relations.All the things that were listed in this e-mail are true, and USA very
well knows it. The problem is that India has no leverage whatsoever on USA. Is India going to drive out US businesses? Who gets hurt more? Is India going to stop H1-B seekers from leaving India? Who gets hurt more? USA issued a few
travel advisories last year and folks like Narayan Murthy started soiling in their
pants. Thus, unless India is able to develop any leverage, nothing will change. Even Pakis have some leverage: support me Mushy says or else
mullahs are going to unleash their terror on you. USA has bought this line of argument and look at the results. From about $400 million in foreign
reserves, today Paki foreign reserves are upwards of $10 billion. Paki terrorism is swept under the rug as Indians die horrible deaths every
day from Paki terrorism.

I am afraid, better India-US relations are just a mirage we are all chasing after. US is getting everything it wants from India with the current
policy. There is no need to change from USA's POV. Frankly, I am very depressed
and I don't even want to think about USA-India relations anymore. I think India's best bet is to concentrate on its own house and have a
multilateral foreign policy. On Pakis, India has no choice but to endure the pain, and
if and when Indian army feels its the right time, we have to make Pakis pay a price. Thats the only way India is going to earn respect.


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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby chola » 30 Apr 2003 21:31

Originally posted by arindam:


Chola - I started thinking about this note a few months ago. Quite a few of the people who've been working tirelessly for several years to improve US-INdia relationships seemed and are very frustrated. They feel let down by the State Department and frustrated that even after years of lobbying, it seems that India does not seem to have enough leverage in the US. These are people who spend significant portions of their lives pushing Indian causes here and I felt that I could help in a small way, by trying out something slightly different.
Arindam, I appreciate your concerns and I believe American desis should do what we could to help change the image of India. But we must do so in such a way that it is beneficial for the US as well. Otherwise, it is too easy for us to be viewed with suspicion. If you want us to be viewed like the Chinese, then we would also be viewed with a lot more jaundiced eye. There are Chinese-Americans whose families have been here for generations and there is a view that they are not totally American by the general public because of the association of them with a foreign power.

Indians and South Asians in general are not considered nationalistic and not considered a threat. I hope this never changes.



I am aware of the situations that you mentioned regarding China (although, I must admit that I do not have your perspective), but even after the EP-3 incident, there was no arbitrary punishment of China; as was the case with India last year, when travel advisories did affect our economy. The SD is so tone deaf to Indian concerns that 2 days after the Nadimarg massacare, they annoounced a $1B aid-package to TSP.

If ever the US were to consider some punitive steps against China, some of the senior-most senators like Nancy Pelosi (from a state with a critical number of electorates) will be all over the SD. We have nowehere near this kind of support.

Arindam, if you wish to push India's case to the American government and people then I fully support it. But you have better do your research completely and understand American history and foreign policy otherwise it would do more harm than good. So listen carefuly to my following points.

Nancy Pelosi is among the most anti-Chinese members in Congress. She has done more to link the human rights situation in China to trade than any other Congressmen. In fact, she was the one who kept up the fight against normalizing trade relations with China. Attacking her for being pro-Chinese shows a complete lack of knowledge about American politics and will hurt our cause.

The US package to TSP was done directly in relation to 911. If Indian-Americans allow our hatred of the Pakis to put us on the opposite side of American national interest then we will be viewed with suspicions.

Never, ever try to point out the EP-3 incident as something minor to white Americans. The modern history of China and America was written in blood. About 100,000 Americans died in two wars that were attempts at containing the Chinese. If you had followed the EP-3 incident you would have noticed the drumbeat for war.

China has been embargoed for decades, was and is part of American military planning and Chinese residents in America are under far greater surveillance than we can imagine. None of the above, we should ever wish for India.

We have better understand this history when presenting our case in regards to China. In fact, we should not mention China at all.

It does us no good to look at every news item about China and then say "if it were India ..."

It smacks of childish envy. And what's more, it shows me that a lot of us are envious of the wrong things. Why the hell should we be peeved at the fact that China was a possible candidate for censure? "If it were India ..." Why the hell are you mentioning India in this? We're not considered enemies of the US.

We must stop linking ourselves with China and allow India to be as important to America as her merits dictate.


Here's the note that I promised ...



I know you have been a tireless crusader of better Indo-US relations.All the things that were listed in this e-mail are true, and USA very
well knows it. The problem is that India has no leverage whatsoever on USA. Is India going to drive out US businesses? Who gets hurt more? Is India going to stop H1-B seekers from leaving India? Who gets hurt more? USA issued a few
travel advisories last year and folks like Narayan Murthy started soiling in their
pants. Thus, unless India is able to develop any leverage, nothing will change. Even Pakis have some leverage: support me Mushy says or else
mullahs are going to unleash their terror on you. USA has bought this line of argument and look at the results. From about $400 million in foreign
reserves, today Paki foreign reserves are upwards of $10 billion. Paki terrorism is swept under the rug as Indians die horrible deaths every
day from Paki terrorism.

I am afraid, better India-US relations are just a mirage we are all chasing after. US is getting everything it wants from India with the current
policy. There is no need to change from USA's POV. Frankly, I am very depressed
and I don't even want to think about USA-India relations anymore. I think India's best bet is to concentrate on its own house and have a
multilateral foreign policy. On Pakis, India has no choice but to endure the pain, and
if and when Indian army feels its the right time, we have to make Pakis pay a price. Thats the only way India is going to earn respect.

We must break this mental link to the Pakis once and for all. Whenever India is mentioned, Pakiland comes on the same breath. Part of the problem is us. We do nothing but complain about American support for Pakiland. It's always Pakistan. To hell with the pukes.

Until after 911, the US has basically dumped the Pakis and its actions included stiffing them on several billions dollars worth of F-16s.

So stop complaining about the Pakis to the Americans. They're our nuisance. They're a gnat in our ointment but such garbage should not be our sole or main issue with America. We'll deal with them on our own.

One more thing we have to be very careful of when presenting our case to the US government. The US government tends to deal with groups who are against their original countries. Chinese, Vietnamese and Cuban anti-communists have very strong lobbies in Congress. In fact, historically most Chinese-Americans lobbied against China on the side of Taiwan - American business interests are the ones now lobbying for China. Vietnam was embargoed mainly through the efforts of Vietnamese-Americans until recently and Cuba is still under economic sanctions, mainly from the pressure of Cuban-Americans.

Indian-Americans would then stand out as a group pressuring FOR instead of AGAINST the country they came from. The reasoning of Americans is often simple: "America is the greatest country on earth. Therefore, you should never spend time supporting a foreign nation unless your loyalty actually lies elsewhere."

Push too hard for the US to see India in the same light as China and we might actually get what we wish for. They will see us as a possible new rival or threat to the US and then they will expect American desis to put the country that we live in over the one that we came from.

As I said again and again in this forum, the best way for India to reach an position of importance is the development of our markets. Why does American business lobby for China? Because its television, cellphone, refigerator, soybean, beer and a thousand and one other markets are either the largest or second largest in the world. Each one of them are 10 to 20 times bigger than India.

When we get to that point then we will have our influence in the US. And we'll get it without the suspicion, acrimony and potential bloodshed like the US-China relationship.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Anindya » 30 Apr 2003 21:57

Chola,
In effect, that is exactly what I was suggesting when I said that "we need to change the equation". We need to focus strategically on the key institutions (using the term loosely) that facilitate our strategic interests.

Having said that, we can learn from a thing or two from Pakistan – Pakistan has spent a lot of time and money (some borrowed from the Sauds) to build up its institution - its institution of terrorism, that is. It took single-minded focus for over 20 years, to achieve this, but they have finally managed to do so. Thanx to the steady the indoctrination through their education system and media, they have successfully converted a nation of 140 million people into one large terrorist training institution.

I’m not joking, when I say that - their total expenses and money involved in their entire terrorism industry is "comparable" to our IT industry; and much to our chagrin, our IT industry does not go out infidels.

Having said that, we have some great unorganized sectors, which with a little more help in organizing them – housing is just one of them, for example; agriculture is another. As Prahalad said recently, "Imagine a situation when we can have a regional network of 10,000-15,000 villages specialized in certain crops with capital intensive technology to subsistence farming, and then connecting the consumers with the farmers," (referring to Amul's success story). A similar opportunity exists in housing and medical tourism. If we can regularize even $100B of India’s underground economy, the impact will be tremendous.

As China falters in the short term and India grows, the US will need us more and more – right now only 1% of US’s international trade is with India. Unless this figure changes drastically, we will never have realistic leverage over the US. China has done it – slowly, but surely. We do have the greatest man-power, a large “potential” market and some of the most creative people - how many times, have we walked into a research lab or even a university department, and found that Indians outnumber even the Americans as faculty or researchers. So, we do have this huge strategic strength, but the question is how do we convert this into some leverage in the rest of the world.

For far too long, we in India and many of us here have worked only on tactical aspects of the US-India relationship (such as protesting endlessly on Kashmir), but not on the strategic, like I'm suggesting (and you seem to agree). We’re getting better in some areas. Consider, the following examples:

· We were hard enough with the Malaysians after their ill-teatment of Indians, that they actually ended up punishing the police officials

· We’ve struck a deal with UAE that now essentially trades extra flights from India for every terrorist that they hand over

· France is telling us in private, that if we sign some big deals with them, they will not sell anything significant to the Pakistanis in the future

· South Africa sold some missiles to Pakistan, so we re-opened a bid on a critical artillery pieces

· Burma is much more amenable to helping us with terrorists hiding in their territory, after we decided to fund an expressway linking Moreh, Manipur to Thailand

This does not mean that we do not need to keep putting more pressure on our own government and foreign ministry – we certainly do. Continuity in policies, alacrity in handling international situations and long-term planning all still seem alien to our national policy makers.

However, for us to improve things with the US, we’ll have to spend some more time in building up the strategic dependencies. This will happen.

The AI-IA deals for new aircraft have been pushed back for exactly such reasons. In fact, we tend to have a lot of support from the DoD in the US, due to the fact that we now provide their ships berthing/repair facilities and help patrol US interests in the Malacca straits. The State Department and CIA are a different game – there are too many senior officials from the cold-war days and too many people who think in terms of Pakistan-India equality. This will not change easily, but in 4 years from if the CEO’s of GM and LM (Lockheed Martin) call up the SD on our behalf, things cannot remain the same.

This is the change that I was suggesting.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby svinayak » 30 Apr 2003 23:55

allow India to be as important to America as her merits dictate.

This is the key.

Arindham , Can me give me your email address. thx

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Anindya » 01 May 2003 00:00

my email address is arindam_banerji@yahoo.com

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Kakkaji » 01 May 2003 01:32


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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Anindya » 01 May 2003 01:42

When I wrote the note, the overall intent was simply to try and change brand-India and help build up support from US business leaders for INdia. (note the strategic goals section).

The comparison with China was a tool for making a point, but certainly not the goal. In a certain sense, acharya captures it in one of his notes:

" This is called strategic image creation of India which has been going on for some 100 years. The aim is to unmake India. "

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Katare » 01 May 2003 02:28

Never ever will you hear the Tibet issues raised anywhere in the US or a whole lot said about Taiwan or for that matter, anything much said about China's tendency to hand out nuclear weapons to rogue nations
This is not correct......these are infect some of the most talked publicized issues in the Us media.....there are even movies made on at least one of these issues......(Kundun about Dalai Lama Tibet).....I don't think any American will know about Abdul gani Bhatt or whatever the suckers name is/was....leave aside making a movie on him or Kashmir.......

Chola, is prolly on right track….but he is being euphemistic….....but the truth of the matter is, that our market is just not temptative enough for these greedy American lalas......

Also whichever way India goes it doesn’t matter to nobody……it’s pretty decent type of cow………India even don’t have a region of influence in south Asia, leave aside influencing world opinion…..even Bhutan (whose existence is guaranteed by India) harbors terrorist groups that threatens Indian interests sovereignty ……..
:mad:

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Prateek » 02 May 2003 01:31

China and India: When the figures don't add up
By Jayanthi Iyengar

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics - Benjamin Disraeli

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EE02Df01.html

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby chola » 02 May 2003 03:19

Originally posted by arindam:
When I wrote the note, the overall intent was simply to try and change brand-India and help build up support from US business leaders for INdia. (note the strategic goals section).

The comparison with China was a tool for making a point, but certainly not the goal. In a certain sense, acharya captures it in one of his notes:

" This is called strategic image creation of India which has been going on for some 100 years. The aim is to unmake India. "
If you want to change India's brand name, the first thing you want to do is to delete all mention of China or Pakistan.

We're not a dictatorial potential enemy of the US like China and we're not a failed theocratic state in the dark ages like Pakistan.

Remake India under its own strengths. I find it insulting that India is important only as a "counterweight" to China or as one half of a potential South Asian nuclear crisis.

India is important even if there were no China or Pakistan. The key is making it show up in the market place.

India actually has a great opportunity now. China was the number one or number two import destination for many of the countries in ASEAN. This is how they gain influence, in spite of being a lying, dictatorial communist state that nobody really trusts. Money talks.

This has changed now because of SARS. Exports from Malaysia, Thailand and South Korea to China are plummeting. If India can take in a fraction of that, to cushion some of the economic fall in those countries, it would gain India an immense political and economic say in the East Asian region. Now this would be real power.

Let's face it, if India is ever to gain international prominence, we need to break out from this South Asian neighborhood of basketcases. An India with a voice in East Asia would result in attention and respect from not only America but all the great powers.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 30 May 2003 02:29

Question for economics gurus:

At the time of economic reforms, both, India and PRC had much in common (i.e. China in 1978 and India in 1992). But we have taken a few reform steps differently.

One is opening up to Foreign Institutional Investment. Why did India choose to open up its capital market to FII so early in reforms, while PRC is doing so only now? One reason is that PRC would have lost a lot of control over the capital market earlier if it had done so, and in an era of uncertainty they didn't want to risk it. Weren't the same concerns applicable to India? Also, what has been India's experience so far wrt FII?

Can someone shed some light on this? Would appreciate any info. Thanks.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 30 May 2003 07:08

Compare the drive from the airport to your hotel after you land in Beijing/Shanghai to what you experience in Bombay/Delhi.

We need our major cities to be world class, this is what a visiting ceo / journalist sees. Our cities look and feel like the worst third world cities.

I know this has been discussed a lot , and China's cities have been dismissed as 'Potemken's vilages', but unless we have world class cities, image building , regardless of how many gigabit switches are designed in B'lore or how many MIT Phds are indian, will not succeed.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Umrao » 30 May 2003 07:15

Agree 100% with Alan.

Clean up of slums is next to impossible in India. Sanjay G did a little with Ambika Soni help. That was way long back.

Slums are like weeds in my landscape every season I spray weed B gone next spring they 'Spring' just right there.

THe only way to do something about it is when we have our democratic dictatorship in India like China does.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 30 May 2003 07:52

I dont recall my one trip to mumbai airport but
lets see about delhi.

Guy starts from IGI terminal. The first 3km is
a massive wide divided road via the nangal diary
area. Then a left turn at mahipalpur an area that
has seen remarkable upgration last 3 yrs with
full service road and new factory shops. after
left turn, a 4km stretch to Palam mour than right
about 8km to Dhaula kuan - again a big wide
divided road through the Delhi cantt outskirts.
on both sides military buildings , stadium, the
mil hospital. at dhaula kuan person either drives
fast to the east on ring road into hotels like
hyatt or that royale in nehru place. else he
continues inside chanakyapuri to maurya or taj.
else pass thru chanakyapuri to Le meridien or
other hotels near connaught place thru lovely
green New delhi area. imposing edifices like
Nblock , Sblock, RBI on the way, distant view of
india gate.

What is there to complain about ? most delhi
slums are tucked away in trans yamuna far far to
the east across river.

Its only the 5th rate stringers for agencies who
go to these areas and find a kid with snot on
his nose and flies around his head to present a
proper drain inspector report in triplicate. I am
sure people (vested) even hire bullock carts to
go infront of swank IT buldings and bring out
the 'rich-poor' gap and 'dichotomy and failure'
of indian development.

it is what it is; you can push the poor outside
cities like China has done or help them make the
best of a already hard life.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 30 May 2003 08:46

it is what it is
Image building is an exercise in the opposite , is'nt it ?

Delhi is, perhaps marginally better than Bombay, but it pales in comparison to Shanghai / beiing in presenting itself as a capital of a rapidly developing country.
Trust me, a visit to Shanghai/Beijing for an Indian who grew up in Bombay (and also loves Delhi) is painful as to the comparisons it evokes.

I beleive it is a fallacy and perhaps escapism to attribute the state of our cities to the price we pay for democracy.

The problem is not slums per se or the fault of the poor, that is blaming the very people who have the least say, but the elected civic leadership.

Keeping streets clean, roads in good repair, ruthlessly enforcing land usage laws, public sanitation and generally promoting civic sense is their repsonsibilty and they have shirked. We ofcourse do not demand it of them.

The good news is that city infrastructure has improved in the recent past.

If there is any consolation, the women in Bombay and Delhi are incomparably better looking :)

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby dhaval.shah » 30 May 2003 08:47

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
... it is what it is; you can push the poor outside cities like China has done or help them make the best of a already hard life....
There was a two part series on China [Economy and real people] in PBS. This covered a 3 year period 1997-99. Here is the lowdown :

1. Massive corruption in State Owned Enterprises [SOEs] in China
2. Several interior cities have millions of unemployed who riot. The film crew was not allowed to meet or film anyone of them
3. Massive labour unrest at other places and exploitation of poor from the interiors.

There were good points to where the transfer of some SOEs benefitted the people.

India does not hide its poverty, China is ashamed of them.

- a lurker new to this thread... :)

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby member_4776 » 30 May 2003 19:39

As I indicated in my earlier post that the motto of our ( INDIAN ) gov is "SATYAMEWA JAYATE". Traslated in english "May truth prevail". There is still a lot of poverty, corruption etc in INDIA. But there is not hiding of these truth. thanks to a transparent media. The key to success is to accept the truth and work to towards a solution of the problem.

A visting CEO may be upset to see some shanties but then he will be pretty comfortable when he lands in the world class campus of the company he/she visiting.

Perception matters but it is the TRUTH that prevails at the end.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 30 May 2003 20:04

China is actually a good example where the 'true' picture doesnt matter if you can provide
- electricity
- efficient ports
- good road & rail network
- hard working labour in endless numbers.

India is finally starting to get some momentum on
all these fronts, and I am sure as people learn to make money here..all those stringers will be re-directed and re-educated to only photo the good stuff ;)

The women ofcourse...I better not get started on
that.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rahul Mehta » 30 May 2003 20:39

Originally posted by Subhmoy Das:
As I indicated in my earlier post that the motto of our ( INDIAN ) gov is "SATYAMEWA JAYATE". Traslated in english "May truth prevail". There is still a lot of poverty, corruption etc in INDIA. But there is not hiding of these truth. thanks to a transparent media. The key to success is to accept the truth and work to towards a solution of the problem.
If SJ ("SATYAMEWA JAYATE") was GoI's motto, we would NOT have had so much corruption etc to begin with. SJ was certainly NOT GoI's motto.

IMO, Nbjs try a LOT to cover up the corruption. But an effective cover-up would need lot of suppression/threats/violence. And due to procedure of election, Nbjs fail to committ the level of suppression etc needed for complete cover-up of corruption etc. So the word gets out.

And as for poverty, many have have converted poverty-reporting into business. Many NGOs ACTUALLY sell poverty-scenes of India in West to capture donations from west's foreign/NRI crying hearts. Even Govt depts are slowly mastering the art of selling poverty. So when there vested interested in EXPOSING poverty, how is a cover-up possible?

Originally posted by dhaval.shah:

1. Massive corruption in State Owned Enterprises [SOEs] in China

2. Several interior cities have millions of unemployed who riot. The film crew was not allowed to meet or film anyone of them

3. Massive labour unrest at other places and exploitation of poor from the interiors.
Corruption in China has been on the rise since 1990s. IMO, this alone is sufficient to kill China within next 5-10 years. To that, add low democraticness. Enough for a total implosion and collapse.

Unless China can emulate the Western-style democratic political system, where citizens have more effective powers, China is doomed.

In any case, there is NOTHING for India to learn from today's China. If China fails to democratise itself like West, it will collapse, in which case we will NEVER have anything to learn from China.

If China manages to create Western-style democratic systems, then we *may* have something to learn from China. But only thing to learn from China in that case will be --- how can one create a western-style democracy in a country where intellectuals/elite etc are extremely hostile to democratic ideas.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby S Bajwa » 30 May 2003 20:46

Keeping streets clean, roads in good repair, ruthlessly enforcing land usage laws, public sanitation and generally promoting civic sense is their repsonsibilty and they have shirked. We ofcourse do not demand it of them.
Fine and imprison who

1. ****es on the roadside.
2. spits betel,etc on road.
3. drives Trucks,cars overloading.
4. indulges in eve-teasing,hooliganism,etc.

Everybody in India seems like is trying to make "a quick buck" they want to make money today and don't care about tomorrow (and thus service, product sux). Our such populace in reality are abusing freedom and democracy.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby eas » 31 May 2003 00:23

"SATYAMEWA JAYATE" = Truth Alone Triumphs.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby member_4776 » 31 May 2003 00:58

Thanks for the exact translation

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 31 May 2003 01:21

China is actually a good example where the 'true' picture doesnt matter if you can provide
- electricity
- efficient ports
- good road & rail network
- hard working labour in endless numbers.

India is finally starting to get some momentum on
all these fronts,
Exactly. We are moving on this, but at an elephant's gait.

Unless China can emulate the Western-style democratic political system, where citizens have more effective powers, China is doomed.
I disagree. China has maintained it's territorial integrity (including territories clearly imperial and not national ), it's social and cultural systems, dramatically improved it's economy and emerged as a world player, without even paying lip service to democratic notions. I do not see any evidence supporting your claim.

Dynastic rule has served China well for 3000 years, and Emperor Jiang the fourth emperorof the communist dynasty continues in this tradition.

Everybody in India seems like is trying to make "a quick buck" they want to make money today and don't care about tomorrow (and thus service, product sux). Our such populace in reality are abusing freedom and democracy.
There is nothing uniquely indian in this. the chinese janata, left to themselves behave exactly like this. For instance, spitting and urinating in public places was common in china a deacde ago.
The government launched a massive nation wide campaign, followed it up with police enforcement and it is rare in urban areas today. The same can be done in india.

Our 'elite' of course , in blindly copying current western fads manages to inflict un-needed pain. A few years ago, the corporation in bombay was quite succesfully eliminating stray dogs in the city. Ofcourse some soft-headed denizons of malaber hill/ cuffe parade stopped this in the name of animal rights. That the children in Dharavi and Sewree should be safe from rabid dogs weighed less on them than animal rights'.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Kaushal » 31 May 2003 01:35

Concur with alan desouza. Democracy is incidental to economic advancement, it neither hinders nor aids economic progress, provided there is adequate economic freedom (not necessarily political) and accountability.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby kautilya » 31 May 2003 02:16

Originally posted by Kaushal:
Concur with alan desouza. Democracy is incidental to economic advancement, it neither hinders nor aids economic progress, provided there is adequate economic freedom (not necessarily political) and accountability.
Amartya Sen in his book "Development as freedom", argues the opposite. Acoording to him the main reason China is ahead of India is more freedom in
two areas -- a) economic and b) freedom that comes wih being literate(much higher literacy rate in China)
This is so beacuse combination of a and b opens up more avenues and opportunities.
So, in long run as we improve on a and b, we should actually leave China behind, as we are much better in other areas of freedom.

Disclaimer: I have only read parts of he book, and not the complete book.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby svinayak » 31 May 2003 04:53

State funding on education is the biggest difference. China managed to change its literacy map within a few decade. Indian lawmakers are still arguing about the increase in education budget.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Ashutosh » 31 May 2003 08:23

Originally posted by alan desouza:
I know this has been discussed a lot , and China's cities have been dismissed as 'Potemken's vilages', but unless we have world class cities, image building , regardless of how many gigabit switches are designed in B'lore or how many MIT Phds are indian, [b]will not succeed.[/b]
A better way to put it would be "appear to have not succeeded?"

India's problems are different, and deserve an explanation.

Slum eradication is a very very challenging problem, and I feel this problem can either be solved tomorrow by autocratic rule, or in the next 25 years through economic development only.

Alan, you should remember this: A classic case was the Mah SS/BJP govt.'s slum eradication drive in the late '90s. I don't recollect the exact slum in question, however the government built tall swanky highrises with the good fittings possible; moved all the slum dwellers to the new buildings for free. A couple of months later, an inspector decided to visit the building to find out how the former slum-dwellers were doing. To his astonishment, there was nobody there anymore! And all the fittings, doors, windows, hinges, etc. etc. all were gone! So the inspector rushed to the earlier slum-site, and found out that the slum dwelllers had removed all the "good stuff" from the condos/flats, and returned back to the slum!

IOW, the slum dwellers themselves didn't want the change! This type of attitude means that change is not possible through change in personal opinion. There goes 25 years. (approximate time it would take for a kid in a slum to get educated, get a job, and move to greener pastures.)

GD, I did travel from Delhi airport to Le Meredian once. "Awesome" was the only word that came to my mind. I guess it has more to do with the diplomatic status and the "eliteness" associated with Delhi. Delhiites are more image conscious than Mumbai as has been proven in several cases. One case is the cellphone vs. pager story. When they were first introduced in India, I remember pagers were about Rs. 5,000, but the cheapest cellphones were about Rs. 25,000. Mumbaiites being industrial/businessmen grade people (who always look for value-for-money), went great guns for the pagers, and made a handy utility out of it. Delhiites however hardly purchased pagers but bought expensive cellphones to "aussage the image".

The Mumbai airport story is another altogether. Pune to Mumbai by the expressway took me about two and a half hours. However, Mumbai to Mumbai airport took five hours!. I was smart enough to have left for Mumbai more than 15 hours before the actual flight!

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 31 May 2003 08:32

OMG why did it take 5 hrs ? I had managed to be
driven from Navynagar(colaba) to domestic in around 1.5 hrs 1995. and thats the last I saw of
mumbai.

the posh 'Govt & diplomatic' area inside new delhi has a budget greater than most of the NE states - something like 2000cr way back in 1999 iirc. No encroachments are possible, roads are wide and well-maintained, security is excellent, all the old trees are still there, no shopping areas to add clutter, no highrises and if you look at the private bungalows on lodhi road, malcha marg, aurangzeb road ....mindblowing size, cars, servants, mistresses, gardens, imported sharab...the elite of the elite fight to live and party there..the second rung live elsewhere like south ext, GK and mehrauli.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Pulikeshi » 31 May 2003 08:37

Originally posted by Kaushal:
Concur with alan desouza. Democracy is incidental to economic advancement, it neither hinders nor aids economic progress, provided there is adequate economic freedom (not necessarily political) and accountability.
China vs. India = Hare vs. Tortoise

China is pursuing a free economic model, supported by a repressive political system based on the flawed philosophy of communism (changing to oligarchy). India was pursuing a flawed economic model (in the process of reform), supported by a vibrant political system, and based on a fundamentally sound philosophy of democracy.

Democracy is fundamental to promote accountability: political, social and economic. History shows that countries with repressive political systems undergo catastrophic political change during weak economic times. Whereas democracies do not succumb, rather they retain the elasticity to bounce back from a weak economic phase.

Freedom is essential in the political, economic and philosophical pillars of society. The Chinese hare may not be lazy, but is probably going to crash and burn! I am not a betting man, but if I were, my money is on the tortoise.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Ashutosh » 31 May 2003 08:45

GD, Navy Nagar is in Colaba - south Mumbai. Depending on the time of the day, it can take anywhere between 30 min to infinity to get to Sahar. But I hear things now are getting better - with the numerous flyovers, the planned sea links and all.

However, Pune to Mumbai I entered from Thane side (North) once and Chembur (North-East) the other. Boss the roads are nice and wide and can take a lot of traffic. However one should never forget to take into account the "typical Indian conditions" :D

A Tata truck cleared to carry only 2 tons carrying 10 tons of load; with totally bald tires, screaming on an overhead bypass/flyover leading to the airport at more than 60kmph in torrid rain in the middle of July in a already 1 feet under water North Mumbai ... skidded, spun roller coaster, and finally landed turtle bang on the Thane-Sahar road. Which basically led to the 5 hour traffic jams on all sides. :D

However this was 2 years ago. I don't know how it is right now.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 31 May 2003 11:32

private bungalows on lodhi road, malcha marg, aurangzeb road ....mindblowing size, cars, servants, mistresses, gardens, imported sharab
Rendevouz with mistresses and wild partying is probably at the farm house in Mehrauli.


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