Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Kaushal
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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Kaushal » 31 May 2003 12:14

Freedom is essential in the political, economic and philosophical pillars of society.

Freedom is essential , no doubt for the reason you have stated. But my remark was to the effect that economic progress is independent of political freedom. Remember political freedom is a relatively new concept in human civilization, beginning essentially with the French and American revolutions. Prior to that there was no concept of individual political freedom. One essentially obeyed the laws as passed by the King.

In any event it is pointless to discuss the alternatives to a free society , esp. in the Indian context.There is simply no alternative given the diversity of India. My only point was that economic progress is dependent not on political freedom but on economic freedom and accountability. The sooner India achieves a high degree of accountability among its public servants and removes the pernicious effects of the permit raj, the sooner it will achieve the higher degree of economic growth needed to achieve economic freedom (freedom from want, poverty and hunger).

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rahul Mehta » 31 May 2003 18:35

Rahul Mehta: Unless China can emulate the Western-style democratic political system, where citizens have more effective powers, China is doomed.

alan desouza: I disagree. China has maintained it's territorial integrity (including territories clearly imperial and not national ), it's social and cultural systems, dramatically improved it's economy and emerged as a world player, without even paying lip service to democratic notions. I do not see any evidence supporting your claim.
Maojee, despite all flaws had given an asset to China --- a low corruption administration. Like good health and free-of-addiction-body is an asset to every career-oriented man, a coruption-free admin is an important asset to a nation trying to develop.

Now imagine a career-oriented man who rises his career in 5 years, but royally ruins his health. How would you predict his next 5 years?

China's administration is sinking rapidly into rampant bribery. The asset that Maojee etc gave has been lost.

My *belief* is that corruption and progress CANNOT go togather. Corruption will eventually ruin progress. Now can China fix its corruption problem, WITHOUT creating Western-style legislatures/admin/courts? So far, EVERYONE who tried to build nation WITHOUT copying Western style legislatures/admin/courts has failed. Lets see if China can suceed in killing corruption problem. So far, it has failed. We will soon see more.

Dynastic rule has served China well for 3000 years, and Emperor Jiang the fourth emperorof the communist dynasty continues in this tradition.
And what "service" did it do? The nation was so weak in 1800s and imperial powers had taken over most of the China by 1900.

Our 'elite' of course , in blindly copying current western fads manages to inflict un-needed pain. A few years ago, the corporation in bombay was quite succesfully eliminating stray dogs in the city. Ofcourse some soft-headed denizons of malaber hill/ cuffe parade stopped this in the name of animal rights. That the children in Dharavi and Sewree should be safe from rabid dogs weighed less on them than animal rights'.
Unfortunetaly, the problem is NOT that elite is copying the West --- it is OPPOSITE. Our elitemen/intellectuals are too egoistic and have too much fake/false pride in "Indian heritage" and so they bluntly refuse to copy the West. Otherwise, we would have had Western style legislature/admin/courts by now, and we would have been at least as better off as the West.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 31 May 2003 20:14

China admin is not low corruption.

Its high corruption but business friendly. big
business means more $$ for corrupt officials.

the CCP occasionaly shoots some officials but
they themselves live in leadership compounds ,
their kids study in america and drive bmws.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Kaushal » 31 May 2003 20:22

China remains a highly corrupt country, generally on the same level as India. There the CP and the high level bureaucracy live high on the hog. But they do not bother with the petty penny ante corruption (less than thousand rupees) that is more prevalent in India .

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Katare » 31 May 2003 21:10

Could some one explain how come Chinese has more economic freedom than Indians?

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 31 May 2003 21:18

Raj, their states have been given more powers to directly deal with foreign investors, build whatever is deemed fit and manage more of their money.

our problems are because many things need clearance from Central ministries where it gets bogged down inside tunnel or due to political problems. and finally it gets to CCS/PMO for pushing it to closure. I find it ridiculous that CCS has to clear FDI proposals worth say 50cr. this kind of $$ is peanuts and State industry ministers should be terminating the approval pyramid here.

secondly environmental and political oppostion is not present in China, so if factories, roads, ports need to be built there is virtually none to oppose -- no unions, no peaceniks, no CPIM.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Richard Masterson » 31 May 2003 21:28

Taiwan and South Korea both had periods of high economic growths in the 1960s, 80s and 90s, during which time they both had non-democratic,authoritarian and "strong" govts

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Arun A » 31 May 2003 21:40

Intellectual property in China: Guard it or lose it

Rampant piracy in China comes as a rude shock to most foreign companies. Put in place an intellectual property protection strategy, or don’t expect to see the fruits of your creativity.

Selwyn Kwok knows the dangers of protecting intellectual property (IP) in China—and has the scars to prove it. Two years ago, the 35-year-old Hong Kong native got his face slashed when his American company raided a factory near Dongguan, in southern China, that was churning out pirated copies of his employer’s brand-name apparel.

Welcome to 21st century China, where money counts more than most things, and where copying is the “greatest form of flattery”, as one middle-aged Chinese scholar proclaims. Intellectual property or assets belong to the world, he declares.

IP theft is having a tremendous impact on companies and individuals trying to do business in this promising market. From the humblest sundries to the sexiest high-tech set-ups, importers and manufacturers are seeing the fruits of their creativity and labour swallowed up, copied and regurgitated onto China’s domestic market, and even flooding international markets—all at a fraction of the original retail price.

In a country where pirated software is the rule rather than the exception, Microsoft knock-offs and pirated games can be bought openly for less than US$10.

World’s biggest copycat
According to US-based consulting firm International Planning & Research Corporation, close to 98 per cent of the China software market is pirated.

China is the world’s biggest exporter of counterfeit products. In some market segments, China-originated counterfeit goods account for 90 per cent of the global total, according to Singapore-based IP consulting firm Intelleigen.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby kautilya » 31 May 2003 21:59

Following are in IMHO freedoms necessery for development and their availability in India (not an exhaustive list)--

a) freedom to do whatever business you want (not available in India untill 1990)
b) freedom to expand your business to whatever size you want ( not fully available in India yet, with some industries still reserved for small scale)

c) freedom to buy/beg/borrow/steal whatever technology you need to run your business efficiently especially when you are too small to do your own R &D. (not available till 1990, untill when you had to get a licence from he govt. to decide what tech to import)

d) freedom to resize/downsize your company -- basically hire and fire ( not available in India yet)

e) freedom to get inputs (like electricity etc.) free from the costs associated with cross-subsidization (not completely available yet)

f) freedom from corruption ( not available yet)

g) freedom from injustice/late justice ( for e.g. if I decalre fake bankruptcy it will take you/bank 10-15 years to recover money. This adds very heavily to cost of business.-- so not available yet)

h) freedom to make money with my own intellectual products. e.g. movies, innovative products etc. (not completely available yet in practice)

i) freedom to avail of opportunity ( for e.g. if I am capable and really interested in becoming a doctor I should be able to do so. This can only come as a result of complete literacy, and allowing private higher educaion with freely available loans/scholarship for education)

h) freedom to get information from govt. on it's functioning( important for accountability. right to information acts introduced by certain states and center are a step in the right direction. not completely available yet)

i) political freedom-- freedom to elect rulers

j) free press

k) freedom to disagree with the govt. etc. openly

IMHO scoring on a scale of 5, 5 being fully free India scores following on various aspects --

a) 4
b) 3
c) 4
d) 2.5
e) 2.5
f) 2.5
g) 2
h) 2.5
i) 2
j) 2.5
i) 4
j) 4
k) 4

Only when India is able to get scores >=4 on all of the above would India have real economic freedom. We have a long way to go, though we have come very far.
P.S. feel free to add to the list

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 01 Jun 2003 02:18

Corruption in China is many times higher than in India. For one thing, there is no codified civil law governing commerce. It is made up in each province, even perhaps in each SEZ as they go along. This, as can be imagined leads to unprecedented opportunities to steal for the people in charge. So why does not everything come to a grinding halt? How do these highways, airports etc get built? Human rights violations on a massive scale. Every once in a while an example is made of those whose corruption impedes in a blatant way , national goals. Farcical trials, with death sentences, keeps it from getting out of hand. Can this work for ever ? Hard to tell, but a strong ruthless central government is venerated in Chinese culture.
As for penny-ante corruption, yes the cities are remarkably free from it. Many city dwellers are not native , but have obtained permission to live there. Higher standard of living, a chance to make money in the unorganized private sector even if one is a government employee, cheap good housing, children’s education etc. But the right to live in a city can be taken away, which keeps these people in line. In smaller rural towns and villages , you can bet local functionaries get rich with petty bribes.

So given that the whole system works on brutal force, denial of right of free movement to it’s citizens , controlled by tiny doddering elite living in walled off enclaves where every luxury is available, how long can this last ?

China’s seemingly remorse less march to world power status can be brought to halt by any one these happening:

n ethnic regions (Tibet, XingJiang, Inner Mongolia, parts of Yunan) breaking away. These regions put together, are bigger than India (40% of china’s landmass ).
n Social Chaos from the rich-poor , rural urban gap , coupled with lack of democratic pressure valves.
n Rich coastal regions break away.

China’s demographics make works against independence of the it’s outlying imperial territories. Han Chinese constitute 93% of the population and in any crisis can simply overwhelm the minorities. Also these regions are poor relative to china proper and remote from foreign interference. By contrast, the erstwhile USSR had an ethnic Russian population of less than 50%, so drawing parallels from the break up of the USSR might be misleading.

Social chaos resulting from the extreme tensions generated by unequal economic development is perhaps more likely. However even the poor are better off than their parent’s generation, Chinese light industry becoming he world’s light industry draws off excess hands from the lands , the one child policy resulting in the absence of the youth bulge of many third world countries, peasants who now own their land (I think it yet not freehold, but something like a 50 year lease, virtual ownership, but again dependant on the communist party) can become wealthy. These factors reduce the chances of social chaos. There is no yearning for political rights within china’s peasants or industrial proletariat, they just want to be a little affluent and the system makes that possible.
Rich regions breaking away is the least likely occurrence. These depend on the poorer regions for raw materials, ‘cheap’ labour and also to an extent the poorer regions are market for ‘non export quality’ goods. Also the leadership of these parties are not local, but owe their positions to the central politburo and are often drawn from other regions.

Enough rambling……

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Jun 2003 03:36

TRIPS, etc is one area in which the West will always apply pressure on developing economies. PRC is the worst offender in trademark counterfeiting, copyright violations, and the smuggling of such goods into other countries. For example, it is estimated that smuggling of A-grade counterfeit cigarettes from China to the USA is worth about $1 billion a year. The legal penalty is a pittance.

The important thing is that counterfeiting and smuggling in China happens with the connivance of the state. Provincial govts in China often have a stake in the profits of such trade. Even in wholesale supermarkets in cities and towns, counterfeit goods can be bought over the counter. The role played by counterfeit manufacturing in the Chinese economy is significant.

Apart from huge domestic consumption of such counterfeit, A-grade fake stuff is smuggled to the USA and Europe, while the B- and C-grade maal is funnelled into developing countries in Asia, etc. India is one of them. Go to the north-east, for example.

The centres of gobal counterfeit manufacturing are in China, with distribution centers as far off as Russia and Eastern Europe.

Interestingly, after getting off to a good start by counterfeiting a Western trademark, some of these PRC manufacturers come out into the open and go legit, with their own brands, especially in developing country markets.

I don't have statistics on how India fares in this kind of illegal business and smuggling. Right now India is not a leading counterfeit manufacturing center, and is probably more of a consumer. OTOH, India is at the receiving end on the other side of the coin -- Western conglomerates (like in pharma) using patent laws to appropriate the traditional intellectual property of India. I haven't come across a Basmati-like case with China yet.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Jun 2003 03:41

About corruption in China:
One 'cultural' trait conducive to corruption is that of guanxi. Meaning, a 'personal' relationship with a customer, etc. It is part of the business culture in China to make guanxi with a supplier, or potential customer, or important bureaucrat before a deal is struck.

Recently, the Chinese double agent who was in the news made most of her dough as a fixer -- using her connections to make guanxi for her clients with those in her little log book.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EE27Ad02.html

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 01 Jun 2003 04:04

One 'cultural' trait conducive to corruption is that of guanxi. Meaning, a 'personal' relationship with a customer, etc.
It is often done with the help of little book with lots of mobile numbers.....

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Jun 2003 04:09

Originally posted by alan desouza:It is often done with the help of little book with lots of mobile numbers.....[/QB]
Alan, apparently there are many ways to complie such guanxi log books, as double agent Katrina Leung shouwed us :)
On her trips to China, she associated with the very top of the Chinese government. The sensational reporting flowing out of Los Angeles implies that Leung, a round-faced, bespectacled native of Guangdong province, must have been absolutely torrid in the boudoir. Several newspapers emphasized the fact that Yang Shangkun, who was president of China from 1988-93, "liked her". She was also said to be a "favorite" of other Chinese leaders.
Ditto with her American handlers.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 01 Jun 2003 10:00

another +ve source of money China has found is
taxing farm income. I heard local state officials have some freedom to decide whats the rate. there have been protests from farmers in areas where they are taxed heavily, but ultimately they either have to pay or migrate towards city.

maybe Ron Eaton can provide some details on the farming scene.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Jun 2003 10:37

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
another +ve source of money China has found is
taxing farm income.
GD, I don't know if this is a prime reason for low farm incomes. AFAIK, after the explosive initial growth in farm incomes, the fundamental cause for its stagnation and the widening of urban-rural income gaps and regional disparities is the continuing suppression of prices, especially of grain, cotton, and other natural resources.

Importantly, the farm-products for which prices are still suppressed and controlled are the main sources of income for farmers in central and western provinces, while the consumers are mostly in the eastern provinces. So basically, the east is being subsidized at the cost of the west and central region.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 01 Jun 2003 11:59

So basically, the east is being subsidized at the cost of the west and central region.
This is also the case for industrial raw materials , produced by the western and colonial provinces, consumed by coastal provinces)and a major complaint (one among many) for XinJiang [Sinkiang].

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Richard Masterson » 01 Jun 2003 20:51

Sorry, Rudra, can't help you here

I am no expert on China's farm sector

What I know is what I read from journals and newspapers, magazines etc

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby member_5158 » 01 Jun 2003 21:07

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
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Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
another +ve source of money China has found is
taxing farm income.
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GD, I don't know if this is a prime reason for low farm incomes. AFAIK, after the explosive initial growth in farm incomes, the fundamental cause for its stagnation and the widening of urban-rural income gaps and regional disparities is the continuing suppression of prices, especially of grain, cotton, and other natural resources.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Growing up in a village in western region,
I have some different opinions regarding this matter. In the earlier 80s, the vast countryside of China went through a land reform: land owned collectively was divided to the individual family. Thus farmers had a great freedom regarding when and what to plant. Farmers enjoyed good harvests with bless of good weather. They sold grains back to the government at a price 53 cents per 500 grams (wheat), the government sold flour to the urban residents at 26 cents per 500 grams. It could be argued whether the government subsidized farmers or urban residents, that's another topic. In addition, many farmers started small business when they were not busy in the field. Selling meat, fish, vegetables, fruits and some industrial stuff to urban residents. In some villages, some farmers even started small business to manufacture cement, bricks and other construction materials. The income of most farmers rapidly increased. On the other hand, the city and other industrial regions stayed the same, still under the planned the economy. State-owned factories sold their products at a fixed price. Expenses for medicare and education largely remained the same as before. Despite of the collapse of co-operative Medicare system in the countryside due to the land reform, it had never become a problem then, since the expense of Medicare was so low.
Everything changed after 1992, when Deng went to Shenzhen, calling for faster economic reform and transition of planned economy to market economy. The development of Urban and industrial areas accelerated. Many small businesses in countryside went bankrupt due to competition; western region was especially hit hard. Wages of urban residents increased and so did prices for everything for everyone. Local tax is no longer enough to pay for local government officials and schoolteachers in the countryside. Working in the field is no longer profitable. Other incomes must be sought to make a living. Many farmers went to cities for temporary employment.

In short, farmers enjoyed an early increased income in 80s due to the land reform, but economical reform taking place in the urban areas makes the income of urban residents and southern regions far outpaced the rural and western regions. Creating employment opportunity for extra labors in the countryside and helping farmers to increase income has become an urgent task for the current government.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Arvind » 02 Jun 2003 00:28

China’s demographics make works against independence of the it’s outlying imperial territories. Han Chinese constitute 93% of the population and in any crisis can simply overwhelm the minorities
Well the leveraging of the Han population is one of China's most important traits. It is not merely demographic warfare but there is an additional cultural dimension associated with it. To understand this we need to take a look at China and India's historical dynamics.

The similarities:
-Both are ancient civilizations with a large base of urban populations with extensive cultural adaptation for technological capabilities.

-Both India and China have faced ferocious assaults from invaders from the North/NorthWest and have been defeated repeatedly by the invaders and conquered.

-Both have reasonable natural resources.

But then the differences creep in:

India while constantly exporting new ideas failed to project power. India culturally defeated China in Tibet (My post in the earlier History thread) but China still militarily overran Tibet. While China was beaten by invaders it always took the fight back to them. Now it occupies the very lands of these erstwhile invaders. Tai T'sung's ideal of military imperalism was never forgotten by the Chinese.

The second point is that the Chinese Han population has been a master of internalization of external influence. For example recently a China acquaintence provided me with a chinese version of Hindu deity kArttikeya. The deity was portrayed in a thoroughly Chinese form with slanting eyes etc. But the same deity in Java or Cambodia would be quite Indian. So just as the Indian ideas were completely Sinicized, Marxism too was completely internalized and blended with Tai T'sung's spirit. It is this trait that makes the Han demographic expansion really potent.

Unfortunately India faced Abrahmic invaders, unlike China. I wonder if Chinese civilization would survived the way it has if Timur's intended invasion of China had fructified (Imagine the horrors of an Islamic China :eek: ).

In short the differences between India and China are merely a function of their differential attitudes towards using their demographic power.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Champs » 02 Jun 2003 00:40

India while constantly exporting new ideas failed to project power. India culturally defeated China in Tibet (My post in the earlier History thread) but China still militarily overran Tibet. While China was beaten by invaders it always took the fight back to them. Now it occupies the very lands of these erstwhile invaders. Tai T'sung's ideal of military imperalism was never forgotten by the Chinese.

The second point is that the Chinese Han population has been a master of internalization of external influence. For example recently a China acquaintence provided me with a chinese version of Hindu deity kArttikeya. The deity was portrayed in a thoroughly Chinese form with slanting eyes etc. But the same deity in Java or Cambodia would be quite Indian. So just as the Indian ideas were completely Sinicized, Marxism too was completely internalized and blended with Tai T'sung's spirit. It is this trait that makes the Han demographic expansion really potent.
Excellent HH excellent!!! You exceed yourself in this post... very succintly summarized the fundamental differences between the two civilizations. Incidentally, it might interest you that Ranbir Vohra also makes similar points while comparing India with China in Chapter 2(AFAIM) of his book on the modern history of India.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 02 Jun 2003 03:43

Hauma,
Didn't India also assimilate earlier pre-Islamic intruders? And didn't India also 'project power' in the north-west and south-east? For instance, the Turkic Shahi Hindu dynasty fought hard to defend against initial Islamic invaders. So would it be more correct to say that India also assimilated intruding races, but has (so far) failed to do so with the Islamics who have a heightened consciousness of cultural separateness?

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Champs » 02 Jun 2003 05:00

Carl

You brought up a good point and I think you are right. Islam retained its "separateness" and all the influence of Indian civilization failed to penetrate the iron curtain. Nevertheless, it should be mentioned that some cultural exchange did take place at the periphery giving rise to what is popularly known as "syncretic culture". However the truth stands that the Indian civilization couldn't penetrate the Islamic core and failed to "indianise" Islam.

Btw, I have always wondered why the story of "Shahi dynasty" who provided the most valiant resistance to the Ghazanvid invasion is so ignored in Indian history. For three generations, the Shahi kings fought tooth and nail never compromising with the invaders till their whole dynasty was wiped out. Perhaps the Shahi kings undertook it as their 'dharma' to resist the foreign occupation. Thus when Jayapala lost to Mahmud in the battle fought in Purushpur, he abdicated his throne in favor of his son Anandapala and climbed onto his own funeral pyre. Even Al-biruni one of the great Arab scholars praised the chivalarous resistance of Shahis.(Reference: John Keay).

al-Biruni:
The dynasty of the Hindu Shahis is now extinct, and of the whole house there is no longer the slightest remnant in existence. We must say that, in all their grandeur, they never slackened in the ardent desire of doing that which is good and right, and that they were men of noble sentiment and bearing
The resistance of the three generations of Shahis- Jayapala, Anandapala and Trilochanapala will survive in the memories of Indians for all times to come.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Arvind » 02 Jun 2003 05:09

Thanks Akash, but evidently I did not put the point accross well enough:
Originally posted by Carl:
Didn't India also assimilate earlier pre-Islamic intruders?
Yes, there is no disagreement here. The point I was trying to make was per say not about assimilation in our own territory but demographic war fare outside our center of gravity.

And didn't India also 'project power' in the north-west and south-east?
Agreed, we did project power on many occassions in history, and even against China. But these attempts were not consolidated by taking over occupied territories. A good example is the failure to take back what now forms the Terrorist state and Kashmir from the Moslem invaders. The difference I was trying to bring out is that we did not deposit our populations from the doabs or the banks of the Kaviri in captured territory the way, the fertile Han population is deposited all over the world. When we Indianized central Asia and the Far East in the historical past, there was a core Indian elite but the local population was infused to a very small extant with Indian genes.

By internalization of Marxism, I would say that the Chinas did not become brown Sahebs like many of us, but incorporated Marxism in their imperialistic dynastic world view.

Han China conciously reduced Indian and Iranian influences, however compatible and benign they were.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Champs » 02 Jun 2003 05:13

Admins

I realize that my above post, which basically deals with Shahi dynasty is more fit for the Indian history thread. Since I dont have the privilege, you might want to move this post to the relevant thread. Thanks.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 02 Jun 2003 06:38

> Imagine the horrors of an Islamic China

Oh my god, 1.5 billion madrassa trained monkeys surging all over the woodwork ? what a nightmare.

Thank God for Mao! atleast more dangerous idelogies were rejected until Deng got situation under control.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby chola » 02 Jun 2003 07:22

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
> Imagine the horrors of an Islamic China

Oh my god, 1.5 billion madrassa trained monkeys surging all over the woodwork ? what a nightmare.
The original madrassas monkeys had clashed with the Dragon. Though, in this case the mohammedians probably did the world a favor.
http://www.printeroftheyear.sappi.com/home.asp?pid=18

"In 751 AD, an Arab army defeated a Chinese army at the battle of Talas River [near Iran]. Chinese papermakers were amongst the prisoners of war taken in this battle and so Chinese papermaking techniques spread across the world."

Besides losing the chance at paper, Central Asia, Persia and who knows what else might have turned Chinese if T'ang China was left unchecked.

Thank God for Mao! atleast more dangerous idelogies were rejected until Deng got situation under control.
Mao and Deng had nothing to do with stopping Islamisation of China because by their time, Islam was firmly put in its place. Unlike India where our humanity allowed this plague to persist without check, every Chinese dynasty from the T'ang onward killed their fair share of muslims to keep the scourge from spreading further east.

I find it ironic that the Pakis should call China friend. Of course, the Pakis create trouble for the Chinese in Xingjang too. It is highly conceivable that a Chinese designed nuke will eventually find its way back from Pakistan to China in the hands of a religious militant.

Now that would be a big chicken coming home to roost.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rahul Mehta » 02 Jun 2003 12:52

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
China admin is not low corruption.
It *is* NOT low corruption anymore, but in past (before say 1985-90), it was MUCH MUCH less corrupt than India was in those days.

The low corruption admin INCREASES effective freedom of the individual and also decreases the cost of starting and managing businesses.

Now since China is almost as high corrupt as India, it is a matter of few years before its economy goes down.

Its high corruption but business friendly. big business means more $$ for corrupt officials.
Corrupt people are ALWAYS friendly to anyone who bring money. But that "friendliness" later degenerates into extortionist attitutude. Soon the policemen/judges will also become corrupt and become freindly to criminals. Thats the point when economy strarts deteoriating.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rahul Mehta » 02 Jun 2003 13:14

Originally posted by alan desouza:
Corruption in China is many times higher than in India. For one thing, there is no codified civil law governing commerce. It is made up in each province, even perhaps in each SEZ as they go along. This, as can be imagined leads to unprecedented opportunities to steal for the people in charge. So why does not everything come to a grinding halt? How do these highways, airports etc get built? Human rights violations on a massive scale. Every once in a while an example is made of those whose corruption impedes in a blatant way , national goals. Farcical trials, with death sentences, keeps it from getting out of hand. Can this work for ever ?
No it cant work even for 10 years.

The reason why it worked so far was that PAST (say pre-1985) administrators were low-corrupt. So many people in China keep working without asking from bribe at each and every step. But soon, each and every one will start asking for bribe or else he will threaten to create a road block. Thats when things will come to a halt. eg Bihar. Whatever flawed system Brits created, it was low corrupt till 1960s. Then people at top started miniting cash. Then people at middle started minting cash. Now everyone wants bribe or else he wont deliver. No industralist can function in such enviornment where EVERYONE in babudom wants cash every now and then.

But the right to live in a city can be taken away, which keeps these people in line.
In such case, this power to deport the people back to villages will simply become ANOTHER means by which Chinese neta (i.e. Communist Party bosses) and babus will extract bribes.

If China's neta/babu have powers to deport people back to villages, then corruption will grow at a much faster rate and collapse will be faster than I think.

Need info: In China is the recruitment of lower/middle babus is done by OPEN EXAMS or by personal connections?

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 02 Jun 2003 14:02

Question:

Everyone talks of the "unsustainable" bad lending of state-owned banks in PRC and the crushing weight of non-performing loans (NPLs). But is it true that this is a more serious problem in India? I believe the public debt-to-GDP ratio is higher in India than in China.

Is it still illegal to close down bankrupt enterprises in India without govt. permission?

Greatly appreciate any help/links.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rahul Mehta » 02 Jun 2003 16:34

Originally posted by Carl:
Question:

Everyone talks of the "unsustainable" bad lending of state-owned banks in PRC and the crushing weight of non-performing loans (NPLs). But is it true that this is a more serious problem in India? I believe the public debt-to-GDP ratio is higher in India than in China.
China has high NPL=NPA, but Govt-debt is low.

In India, NPA/NPL is low, but Govt-Debt (internal + external) is MUCh higher than in China.

Now, IMO, Govt-Debt is nothing but an NPA. Much of the loans that Govt took can be repaid ONLY after heavy taxation. And ditto for NPA --- eventually govts will have to pay the bank-depositors at least partially if not wholly and thus cover the NPA = NPL.

AFAIS, bothm GoI and GoChina are in deep deep financial mess.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Paul » 02 Jun 2003 17:19


Oh my god, 1.5 billion madrassa trained monkeys surging all over the woodwork ? what a nightmare.

Thank God for Mao! atleast more dangerous idelogies were rejected until Deng got situation under control.
There is a theory floating out there that Islam's spread in South west Europe and China was held in check partly due to the restrictions on Pork consumption ;) . Pork is part of the staple diet in these parts and it may been very diificult to wean potential converts away. I recall in the thread on Hinduism in Bali that Pork is consumed to keep Islam in check there.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 02 Jun 2003 18:11

there was a long conflict to defeat the Moors in Spain. It wasnt easy but the clergy were able to
rouse the rabble and gather coalitions to chase
the Moors out of their catholic turf.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 02 Jun 2003 19:45

For the chinese life is unthinkable without pork.
Plus there is an austerity at the heart of islam which is incompatible with the chinese approach.

The mainstay of the balkan economy was pig farming.

There is a mythical story that during russia's conversion to christianity, there were islamic scholars from bagdad who scored great points over the christian scholars in theological debate and the king and the court were leaning towards islam, when the bagdadis revealed the restrictions on alcohol, which resulted in them being thrown out and christianity being embraced.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 02 Jun 2003 20:12

was there ever a coalition between small indian
kings to face a external enemy simply on the basis of shared Hindu faith alone ?

I see that in europe there is a consistent record of very disparate elements coming together and willing to fight on the basis of faith-based appeals by clergy. The most prominent are the crusades.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Richard Masterson » 02 Jun 2003 20:58

China's Bank's Bad loans

I recall that an Indian Forumite (can't remember his name) had posted here in the BR a few months ago to suggest that, because the Chinese Govt still own all the land in China, and that, in essense, the Chinese Govt thus possess a lot of fixed/solid assets, and this may provide a solution to China's Bank's bad loans

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Adi » 02 Jun 2003 21:28

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:
was there ever a coalition between small indian
kings to face a external enemy simply on the basis of shared Hindu faith alone ?
It may be noted here that the disgraceful and criminal Nepali(Hindu) authorities recently deported 19 Tibetan Buddhist refugees to China, in order to be tortured and interrogated by the PLA. The refugees were transiting through Nepal in order to enter India.

Were the religion in question any different, the commonality of faith would have ensured that none of the refugees was deported.

Also note how the Nepalis have allowed their country to be infiltrated by the ISI, while the politicians continue to badmouth India.

On the other hand, it is ironical that in spite of India liberating Bangladesh from the clutches of its oppressor, the bhookanangadeshis are today tilting towards Pukeland based on the commonality of faith.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 02 Jun 2003 21:33

The failure of indian rulers to recognize an external existential threat and band together to defeat it is a consistent theme in the last thousand years.

In the 11th century the plains were repeatedly raided by afghan raiders entering through the north-estern passes, yet there is no recorded attempt to build a chain of forts at the passes.
An attempt to take the fight to the invaders home was never even considered. Given the economic disparity between the fertile indian plains and the barren southern afghanistan, a consolidated effort would have succeeded. Contrast this with the building of the great wall.
Why these raiders were not recognized as an existential threat is a mystery. Surely indian rulers knew of what was happening in Sind ?

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Vick » 02 Jun 2003 21:59

The Great Wall was of very little military utility as it turns out. Eventually, the Manchus who were outside of the wall, conquered the southern portion anyways. After which point the wall was pretty useless militarily becuase the people that were meant to be kept out were already in.

Which along with the Maginot Line and the Atlantic Wall only show that relying on static defenses without a proper organic force structure and a doctrine of riposte is fool's gold.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 02 Jun 2003 22:08

Deleted. Redundant.


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