Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Richard Masterson
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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Richard Masterson » 02 Jun 2003 22:21

According to official accounts, the Ming Dynasty fell to the Manchus after a treacherous Chinese General (for personal reasons) opened one of the gates of the Great Wall to allow the Khitan (Manchu) army into China, and then into Beijing.The Manchus could not breach the Wall

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby svinayak » 02 Jun 2003 23:13

Chinese also have jaichands amongst them

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 02 Jun 2003 23:15

DeSouza has a point. indian kings in gangetic belt
first could have imported tough ponies from tibet
and built up the horse population to ensure mobility. huge snow-bred yaks could pull wagons in the cold northern regions. and we had the manpower.

a series of punishing scorched earth raids into
afghanistan and iran in phase AD800-1200 could have
disabused the raiders/adverturers/evangelists that
easy pickings were not to be bad.

instead we had infighting, sloth, lack of appreciation about the dire threat developing on the horizon and a willingness to fight only when danger had invaded the homeland. innovation was not encouraged greatly - methods to deal with mobile horse armies, greek fire, psyops were not exploited.

modern indian state too shows some remnants of these cultural weaknesses.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Katare » 02 Jun 2003 23:24

Well, we had a nice discussion (in one of the threads recently) about Indians not complaining or standing up against what they think is wrong…….conveniently assuming that nothing will happen……but BRFites showed “proofs” to contrary that complaining works……so here I go…….nothing personal against anybody……..but please show some respect (if possible at all) when you talk about one of the oldest and largest civilizations and one of the largest religions man kind have ever evolved……..healthy psychological/academic nudity is acceptable to most of us…….rhetorical nudity should be avoided at all cost……

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby svinayak » 02 Jun 2003 23:25

There is a theory floating out there that Islam's spread in South west Europe and China was held in check partly due to the restrictions on Pork consumption . Pork is part of the staple diet in these parts and it may been very diificult to wean potential converts away. I recall in the thread on Hinduism in Bali that Pork is consumed to keep Islam in check there.

This is true. Even in europe in Italy and other states near the mediteranean use pork a lot which increased during the middle ages. THis reduced the intermingling of the Islamic armies inside the local population.
Only when the populaiton of the european nation states increased after 1500 sufficiently; that they started eastwards and were able to trade with east( India/China) cicumventing the arabs that they were able to thrawt the assimilation.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Vick » 02 Jun 2003 23:25

Thankfully, the modern Indian nation-state is very different than from what was there before: Chiefly, there now exists a central decision making body that can and has mobilized the different peoples of the country into a goal oriented force. Not just militarily but also strategically. Not to a satisfactory level but it's a work in progress and the infrastructure is laid for future progress. Very different from what was there when the slew of invasions occured.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby adesouza » 02 Jun 2003 23:45

Well, we had a nice discussion (in one of the threads recently) about Indians not complaining or withstanding to what they think is wrong…….conveniently assuming that nothing will happen……but BRFites showed “proofs” to contrary that complaining works……so here I go…….nothing personal against anybody……..but please show some respect (if possible at all) when you talk about one of the oldest and largest civilizations and one of the largest religions man kind have ever evolved……..healthy psychological/academic nudity is acceptable to most of us…….rhetorical nudity should be avoided at all cost……
No disrespect has been shown here as far as i can see.
An attempt to understand behavioural patterns from the past and draw lessons applicable to the present is a healthy exercise.
As for academic vs rhetoric, most of us are not academcians.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby chola » 02 Jun 2003 23:55

Originally posted by acharya:
Chinese also have jaichands amongst them
There are jaichands everywhere.

The Chinese general who invited the Manchus was probably worse than Jaichand who, even were the story correct (many now think he never really did invite in the muslims), did so in a power struggle which was understandable to a degree.

The general who opened the gates of China did it for the sake of a woman!

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby JE Menon » 03 Jun 2003 00:43

He did it for love or lust (I'm not making any judgement on this :lol: ). Some might see that as a more acceptable motive than power...

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby chola » 03 Jun 2003 00:55

Originally posted by JE Menon:
He did it for love or lust (I'm not making any judgement on this :lol: ). Some might see that as a more acceptable motive than power...
You know, on second thought, from a purely philosophical stance I have to agree. It would be a better motive.

But from a political/military one, it would be pretty messy if borders were protected by romantic gatekeepers. Of course, the girl of such attention would feel very special indeed.

"He gave up the nation for me!"

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 03 Jun 2003 01:20

Originally posted by Vick:
Thankfully, the modern Indian nation-state is very different than from what was there before: Chiefly, there now exists a central decision making body that can and has mobilized the different peoples of the country into a goal oriented force. Not just militarily but also strategically. [..]Very different from what was there when the slew of invasions occured.
Vick, this is debateable. The fact that Indian nationhood is itself at the center of violent political debate today is a sign that all is not as solid as it should be. The existence of communities within the body politic who segregate themselves and refuse to be assimilated causes the moral tone and cultural integrity of the nation to be depreciated.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Rudra » 03 Jun 2003 01:27

secondly there is a large set of do-nothing rebels
running around in areas like NE questioning the
basis in which states like manipur, nagaland et al
were 'forcibly integrated' with the Union. the ulfa
harks back to 1826 treaty of yandaboo between myanmar and british in their periodic barkings on the net. they want to discuss a new deal on the basis of perceived injustice in 1826 treaty wherein assamese were not a party!

a set a leftist 'thinkers' both in india and abroad emerge from their academic covens once in a while with diatribes and books to support these
separatist elements.

this gives credence to the western accusation and
sneering that India speaks in many voices! and is hence disunited and incapable of any progress

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby svinayak » 03 Jun 2003 01:27

The existence of communities within the body politic who segregate themselves and refuse to be assimilated causes the moral tone and cultural integrity of the nation to be depreciated

THis is because of the external influence. The Indian state has stood the test of time but other pwoers are testing it and will continue to test it.
The nation state has institutions manned by people who have enough brainpower to adapt to changing circumstance of the world to create policies, responses and events to remove the threat to the state and the people.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Arvind » 03 Jun 2003 06:03

General (for personal reasons) opened one of the gates of the Great Wall to allow the Khitan (Manchu) army into China, and then into Beijing.
Khitan and Manchu are different. Khitan are a Mongolic tribe and ruled China 907-1125 and were called teh Liao dynasty. They were a prelude to the Chingizid Mongols. Kitajgorod near Moscow as an ancient Western outpost of theirs.

The Manchu belong to the Tungoos tribes who were originally from the wooded Tunguskas of Siberia. Their are distantly related to the Mongols and Turks and lingusitically may actually constitute a Sprachebund with Uralo-Altaic. Their Shamanic religion also shows many Ural-Altaic features which may be of early Eurasian provenance. The first wave of Tungoosid invaders, of the Jurchen tribe. The lord, Yelue Abaji, conquered China in 1115 and ruled the Northern part after displacing the Khitan. They were finally destroyed completely by Ogodai the son of Chingiz. The Mongol generals greatly appreciated the valor of the Jurchen, even as they died fighting against the Chingizid war-machine. They developed a special script for translating the administrative papers from Chinese to their language.

The second wave of Tungoosids was under the lords Aishin Nurakhatsi and Giorro Abhakai of the Manchu branch. They represent the last great wave of Steppe conquerors to take China. They crossed the Wall through trickery, but the Chinese army was in any case no match to their ferocity. They routed the Mongols who were also trying to expand (but constantly in fighting) and shoved them out of History. They soon conquered the whole of China and started conquering Central Asia, taking Uighur, Mongol, and Turk lands. Their legacy was finally cleansed only with the return of the Communist empire. They took active steps not to mate with Han CHinese and preventing Han Chinese from settling in Manchuria and adopting the Mongol script (for the Tungoosid language) for administration. However, the modern imperialist Chinese got the central Asian conquests of the Manchus for free.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Arvind » 03 Jun 2003 06:05

General (for personal reasons) opened one of the gates of the Great Wall to allow the Khitan (Manchu) army into China, and then into Beijing.
Khitan and Manchu are different. Khitan are a Mongolic tribe and ruled China 907-1125 and were called teh Liao dynasty. They were a prelude to the Chingizid Mongols. Kitajgorod near Moscow as an ancient Western outpost of theirs.

The Manchu belong to the Tungoos tribes who were originally from the wooded Tunguskas of Siberia. Their are distantly related to the Mongols and Turks and lingusitically may actually constitute a Sprachebund with Uralo-Altaic. Their Shamanic religion also shows many Ural-Altaic features which may be of early Eurasian provenance. The first wave of Tungoosid invaders, of the Jurchen tribe. The lord, Yelue Abaji, conquered China in 1115 and ruled the Northern part after displacing the Khitan. They were finally destroyed completely by Ogodai the son of Chingiz. The Mongol generals greatly appreciated the valor of the Jurchen, even as they died fighting against the Chingizid war-machine. They developed a special script for translating the administrative papers from Chinese to their language.

The second wave of Tungoosids was under the lords Aishin Nurakhatsi and Giorro Abhakai of the Manchu branch. They represent the last great wave of Steppe conquerors to take China. They crossed the Wall through trickery, but the Chinese army was in any case no match to their ferocity. They routed the Mongols who were also trying to expand (but constantly in fighting) and shoved them out of History. They soon conquered the whole of China and started conquering Central Asia, taking Uighur, Mongol, and Turk lands. Their legacy was finally cleansed only with the return of the Communist empire. They took active steps not to mate with Han CHinese and preventing Han Chinese from settling in Manchuria and adopting the Mongol script (for the Tungoosid language) for administration. However, the modern imperialist Chinese got the central Asian conquests of the Manchus for free.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Richard Masterson » 03 Jun 2003 09:33

The Manchu, Ching (Qing) Dynasty was overthrown in 1911, by the Dr.Sun Yat-Sen's group of Han Chinese Nationalists, who formed the KMT

The Communists came to power only in 1949, after the Chinese civil war

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Agnimitra » 03 Jun 2003 21:48

Originally posted by Ron Eaton:
China's Bank's Bad loans

...because the Chinese Govt still own all the land in China, and that, in essense, the Chinese Govt thus possess a lot of fixed/solid assets, and this may provide a solution to China's Bank's bad loans
Can someone comment on this?

IMHO, the beauty of PRC's fortuitous timing of its reforms is that while, in growth stats, it has lead the rest of Asia, in the crucial imminent reforms (opening capital markets and financial sector reform) it can study and follow the examples of other Asian economies.

It can learn from the (east-)Asian financial crisis, and India's moderately successful experience in this area. From what I understand, the careful sequencing of reforms in the banking sector in tandem with opening capital markets is the key to stability.

Interesting to see how PRC deals with this. OTOH, India's manufacturing sector is bouncing back, and it will be interesting to see if we can now make a dent in PRCs share of the global market.

Guest

Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby Guest » 06 Jun 2003 13:28

chinese gov't only own part the of national lands that can be sold at will and other lands are leased to user within 30-70years(farmers are getting almost free averaged land for 30 years).I think that NPL in those state-owned banks only can be solved by two ways once and for all:selling those banks in chinese stock market and desovled NPL with the money and part of state's fiscal money step by step .in fact ,the chinese gov't are doing on this but lack of enough determination.

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Re: Shaping Reality: India vs. China

Postby A Bhushan » 06 Jun 2003 14:23

Originally posted by alan desouza:
private bungalows on lodhi road, malcha marg, aurangzeb road ....mindblowing size, cars, servants, mistresses, gardens, imported sharab
Rendevouz with mistresses and wild partying is probably at the farm house in Mehrauli.
Oh man!!Where in Mehrauli? I lived close by for 2 years..No idea at that time :(


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