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Water: Linking major rivers in India

Katare
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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Katare » 04 Feb 2003 08:41

This saraswati thing has been discussed to death in history thread but looks like it's more of a economic and social value than historical and religious.....I just wonder how are they going to revive it? Are they gonna dig a canal and fill it with water or is there anyway they can revitalize natural source channel? Is there any other example anywhere in the world? Will Medha and clan will oppose it too? On what basis other than cost?

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Prateek » 05 Feb 2003 05:37

PM to launch 'Freshwater Year' on Wednesday
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/comp/articleshow?artid=36497614

Just about five decades ago, the per capita average annual freshwater availability in the country was 5,177 cubic metres. By 2001, it had come down to 1,869 cubic metres. By the year 2025, it is expected to plunge to an even more alarming level of 1,341 cubic metres and by 2050, it would have slid down even further to 1,140 cubic metres.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 05 Feb 2003 16:48

Originally posted by Raj Katare:
This saraswati thing has been discussed to death in history thread but looks like it's more of a economic and social value than historical and religious.....
Raj,

Are you pro-Saraswati or anti-Saraswati? Mind you, if you are anti-Saraswati, you are a pinko.

I am anti-Saraswati. The river is dead, and please let that river buried in peace. There can be 100s of under ground water currents, and yes, if we find them we can use them. But it is waste of time/GoI-money to search scriptures etc to search a buried water-stream.

Originally posted by muddur:
People like Medha Patkar are nothing but the obstacles to any countries progress to the future.
Can you show me how Medha etc were "obstacales" to India's progress specifically say Narmada dam? All Medha did was that she had filed a complaint in the Supreme Court, and it was the Dorkish SC-judges who issued a stay order, which stopped the contruction of years and years.

As far as I see, the judges were the obstacle to Narmada, and NOT Medha. If you still think that innocent Medha was responsible, please explain me how EXACTLY she stopped the GoGujarat from finishing the dam. AFAWAK (As far as WE ALL know) Medha does NOT have any powers, official or unofficial, over GoG.

Had this Colombia accident happened with India and ISRO, instead of USA and NASA, I could tell with certainty that India has many people like Medha Patkar, who would have already stormed into the ISRO premises and destroyed their assets, and there by halting the entire space missions into a grounding HALT.
This is truely outrageous, and WRONG allegation. Except for a few stray incidents, Medha etc have been 100% NON-VIOLENT. They might have demonstrated outside ISRO, but it WRONG to say that they would have used violence to stop ISRO or destroy property.

However, IMO, judges might have admitted PILs and blocked all flights. That may have happened, and in such cases, you would still blame poor complainer and NOT the judges.

... just to make a career as a critic in the media, is a disgrace for the people like Medha Patkar and her followers, and very unfortunate of the country which gave birth to people like them.
You may be right that it is BAD to curse projects merely on name of precautions, enviornment etc. But you are WRONG to say that these people block projects. They are 100% harmless, though they might be too noisy. Mostly, the roadblockers are the judges who issue stay orders and blanket bans WITHOUT fully understanding the issue; complainers are NOT at fault.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Saurabh » 05 Feb 2003 17:41

Originally posted by muddur:
From today's tragedy of Colombia, if we have one lesson to learn then it is for people like Medha to understand how nations progresses in to the future.

The way American community has taken the current accident is simply amazing. In a span of just around 15 years they have two major disaasters in the Challenger and now the Colombia. The Americans are not only condoning their people, but at the same time the Americans talk about continuing with the project by correcting the faults, in the mission. The kind of political and the public support the American scintific community and institutions enjoy is trully amazing and worth imitating by the Indians.

People like Medha Patkar are nothing but the obstacles to any countries progress to the future. Had this Colombia accident happened with India and ISRO, instead of USA and NASA, I could tell with certainty that India has many people like Medha Patkar, who would have already stormed into the ISRO premises and destroyed their assets, and there by halting the entire space missions into a grounding HALT. There is a living proof for what I am saying, if we care a little to take a look at the MARUT development.

Talking about CAUTION, with the new scientific projects is one thing, but calling the projects as useless and WASTE of money, without even understanding the projects, just to make a career as a critic in the media, is a disgrace for the people like Medha Patkar and her followers, and very unfortunate of the country which gave birth to people like them. I think people like her should be FORCED to talk to the likes of our current President in public, before even they open their wide mouth. Only then, their ignorance over the matters could be exposed to the people of India.
Muddur,
Without getting into the current controversy, I would suggest that you are in the danger of falling in the same trap, which you are warning us against. Medha Patkar has a long record of just and scientifically (read environmentally) sound protests (Re Narmada), so much so that the world bank has admitted to their mistakes and withdrawn from the Narmada projects. By virtue of her experience Medha Patkar is recognised as an expert in the field and as such her remarks should carry as much, if not more, weight than the President, whose background is nuclear science and not water management.

Having said the above I am not necessarily saying that I support Medha Patkar's viewpoints, all I am saying is that she is not necessarily wrong.

The trick to American sucess is not whole hearted support of half assed ideas but following a proper systems of checks and balances before propogating any major steps. All developement is not necessarily good developement. The western (read developed) world now has a legal requirement to have Environment Impact assesments before any major infrastructure projects are undertaken. The law also requires what is called public participation, in which the public (read you, me and Medha Patkar) are expected to put forward their concerns about any project. So not only do developed countries allow criticim by people like Medha Patkar, they actively encourage it.

Rgds

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby saint » 05 Feb 2003 18:20

raj and rahul.. perhaps you guys never heard of everglades in fla. that went a river dry-up to full fledged man assited natural vegetation now.

you asked, i said.

regarding medha:

she is not a moderate.. at least what i read in media. in person, I have not met her. her logics are prejudiced always.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Saurabh » 05 Feb 2003 19:20

Originally posted by Sai_NT:
raj and rahul.. perhaps you guys never heard of everglades in fla. that went a river dry-up to full fledged man assited natural vegetation now.

you asked, i said.

regarding medha:

she is not a moderate.. at least what i read in media. in person, I have not met her. her logics are prejudiced always.
Re Medha Patkar,

I agree she is not a moderate, but then neither was Gandhi. A perceived injustice has to be addressed by all means possible including Satyagrah. (I am not defending her cause - I don't know enough either - though my wife (who is a recognised industry expert) does tell me that her cause is just).
Now Arundhati Roy's utterances on the subject, I have an issue with.
However my point was - In response to Muddur - that regardless of whether we agree with Medha Patkar and her cronies, it is important for the process that independent voices be heard.

Rgds

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby saint » 05 Feb 2003 20:57

>>it is important for the process that independent voices be heard.

Sure, but the logical value that is derived out of these voices can't be taken at face value and applied to all or many issues on the same lines..

In india we deal with some logical value being applied to many, since the level of literacy is such.

Its better to modulate the voice makers rather go and correct the after effects of such voices.
< prevention mode >.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 05 Feb 2003 23:41

Originally posted by Sai_NT:
raj and rahul.. perhaps you guys never heard of everglades in fla. that went a river dry-up to full fledged man assited natural vegetation now.
I am ALL for digging out water from any underground water stream. But why so much fuss over this label "Saraswati"? If there is a water-stream below ground, sure .. use it. But any reason to bother where that stream was flowing say 5000 years ago and how great were the cities around around that river 5000 years ago? Is this knowlefge of history doing to add even one drop of extra water to that stream?

Re : Medha

IMO, here opposition to Narmada was waste-o-time, and Narmada and other boig dams are modern monuments. My point was that Medha has NEVER actually been an obstacle, though she may wished that she would become one. The REAL obstacle to Narmada was a stay order imposed by DD-SCjs. So am requesting anti-Medha BRites to drop the charge against her of being obstacle and add that charge on DD-SCjs.

Thats all; I have ZERO praise Medha/AR etc otherwise.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Saurabh » 06 Feb 2003 15:19

>>Sure, but the logical value that is derived out of these voices can't be taken at face value and applied to all or many issues on the same lines..

In india we deal with some logical value being applied to many, since the level of literacy is such.
---> I agree, values, judgements and solutions from one issue should not and cannot be applied to another similar issue. However the answer is not to gag all views. The problem with democracy is that with the logical will come the illogical. It is the job of the decision makers (and the citizenery) to seperate the noise from the chaff.

>>Its better to modulate the voice makers rather go and correct the after effects of such voices.

------> I strongly disagree "free speech and all that". By your argument BR would need to be modulated by a controlling agency (not just admins). After all we do use this forum to express our annoyance/ support for various government policies. What makes us so different from the opinionated "voice maker" on the streets ?

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 06 Feb 2003 19:47

Originally posted by Sai_NT:
.... Its better to modulate the voice makers rather go and correct the after effects of such voices.
Please see a related post in Misc Topics Thread

-Rahul

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby malnv » 07 Feb 2003 04:47

I am ALL for digging out water from any underground water stream. But why so much fuss over this label "Saraswati"?
If i am not mistaken, it was river Saraswati where most of our ancient civilization took place around. so going on the same plan might prove advantageous.
and moreover,IMO, there shouldn't be fuss on the other side either!!

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Katare » 07 Feb 2003 05:51

Rahul,

You are saying Medha shot a dam using Supreme Court as gun and now we should hang the Gun ‘till death’ not the shooter……..gun is guilty, not the shooter.

Anyway Supreme Court favored with the dam not with Medha but she takes her hoards to the construction site and forcibly stops construction. I am from MP and have seen tons of her pictures (in local media) standing in the water submerged till her chin (suicide threats) for hours in rain to stop authorities from filling reservoir. She also makes it impossible for MP and Gujrat govt to solve the problem by insisting on “land in return of land”…..both governments has repeatedly said they don’t have any agricultural land left and would like to pay in cash
Well I am not giving clean chit to MP govt or gujrat govt either but ………..

I am not pro or anti saraswati but I believe it’s most important of all the underground water current in Indian subcontinent. Because it’s largest lost part of our history and if that history is trustable it’s largest underwater current and passes through the most water-starved part of India making it economically most important too.

Saurabh

You said you don’t know enough about Narmada/medha but still you call her just and scientific. If I were you, either I would do little research before coming out with such conclusions or ask other members for help. I think She is an opportunistic politician who calls herself a social worker.

World Bank has pulled out of all major dam projects worldwide saying they can’t make sure that all the displaced are rehabilitated and paid fairly. WB is a commercial entity and they don’t like controversy and are prone to pressure, it’s understandable……..they never admitted any kind of guilt or wrong doing as far as I know.

If I am not wrong, river interlinking project doesn’t has any ultra size dam and it’s more on the line of what medha has said all along “create small dams all over the India” instead of large Dams.

What’s her problem now?

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby saint » 07 Feb 2003 05:58

I don't know if interlinking of rivers without dams is correct.. We need to control the flow whenever it is necessary.. for example, if we agree to BD that certain amount of water flow would be assured, then during drought times in south india, it should not make BD drought because india could not control the water flow.

Hence dam-ing is required along the water links.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Rudra » 07 Feb 2003 07:22

if we agree to BD that certain amount of water flow would be assured

why should we do that ?

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Prateek » 07 Feb 2003 07:27

I am not saying that critics from people like Medha are unwelcome. But when they claim that the water projects are 'plain useless and waste of money', what alternate do they suggest ? That's what concerns me, more than them being critical.

If one reads the recent reports about the water related problems, we must understand that we are dealing with a giant problem here. We must understand that, calling any idea's howsoever bright, as WASTE, with out giving a sound alternate can sometimes be politically motivated. I hate to see this happen.

We must also understand that, unless the mother nature becomes extremely pleased and rains every year as per our wish, the water problem will grow. So at this point of time, any actions we take, will require huge amounts of money as an investment. Blocking a project with hunger strike will not solve any problems either.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2003 07:36

M,

THe alternatives are local dams and bandhs, enough local green cover to recharge and hold water..Good water shed management at a local level.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 07 Feb 2003 10:08

Originally posted by Raj Katare:
Rahul,

You are saying Medha shot a dam using Supreme Court as gun and now we should hang the Gun ‘till death’ not the shooter……..gun is guilty, not the shooter.
Gun is a dumb INANIMATE object with no reasoning-power. SCjs are NOT lifeless and they indeed DO have reasoning powers. It was DD-SCjs conscious decision to impose a stay order on dam. Forget that, DDjs imposed a stay order on siphoning out water from Narmada that was flowing into sea !

Solution to this DDness? Different topic.

Anyway Supreme Court favored with the dam ...
And how many years were lost due to SCjs delay? And other tribunals?

... not with Medha but she takes her hoards to the construction site and forcibly stops construction.
Such rhetorics wasted ONLY a few days, NOT even weeks. Compare this few days of wastage with YEARS of wastage caused by DD-SCj's stay orders.

I am from MP and have seen tons of her pictures (in local media) standing in the water submerged till her chin (suicide threats) for hours in rain to stop authorities from filling reservoir.
Media publicity is cheap.

In reality Medha delayed the Namrmada project ONLY by a few days. The SCjs's stay orders were the REAL reason.

She also makes it impossible for MP and Gujrat govt to solve the problem by insisting on “land in return of land”…..both governments has repeatedly said they don’t have any agricultural land left and would like to pay in cash
Well I am not giving clean chit to MP govt or gujrat govt either but ………..
And why didnt the SCjs reject this nonsense "land for land" demand? Nowhere in the world, EVEN in US which most protective of property rights, such land-4-land demand is entertained. Those who loose land are seldom given land. They are ONLY given cash or monthly doles to buy equilvalent land plus relocating cost plus some extra severance. It was DD-SCjs' fault that they kept looking into the matter of providing a "full package" consisting of land, schools, community space etc rather than one-time/monthly cash.

I am not pro or anti saraswati but I believe it’s most important of all the underground water current in Indian subcontinent. Because it’s largest lost part of our history and if that history is trustable it’s largest underwater current and passes through the most water-starved part of India making it economically most important too.
Originally posted by malnv:
If i am not mistaken, it was river Saraswati where most of our ancient civilization took place around. so going on the same plan might prove advantageous.
If it is a large underground river, I am 100% in favor of digging it out. But is there is any reason to attach "history" with that? Suppose it is merely a large water current with NO history attached to it. Does its importance reduce even by one drop? It doesnt. And does its glorious past, add even one drop extra today? It doesnt. So why dig the history? Just dig the river.

Basically, my point is that GoI should confine to HYDORLOGICAL importance of Saraswati and ignore its the historical importance.

Malv: and moreover,IMO, there shouldn't be fuss on the other side either!!
No one is fussing over digging out Saraswati. The irritation is over constant rambling of its historical importance. My ONLY request to pro-Saraswati folks is that "please dont mix Hydrology with history".

World Bank has pulled out of all major dam projects worldwide saying they can’t make sure that all the displaced are rehabilitated and paid fairly. ...
WB cant stand progress of 3rd world countries, perticularly when it makes them independent of gasoline etc. If electricity comes from dam, demand from naptha etc based power plant will drastically reduce, and oil companies' profits will also reduce. So the oil lobby of US/UK made sure that WB stops aiding Dams. QED.

Anyway, we MUST not cry over WB's decision. Shame on our neta/babu/experts, that they went to WB to beg for money for dams. ALL the money needed to build dam MUST be raised by taxation ONLY and NOT by loans be internal or external. Be dam or highway, we have NO right to create debt for coming generation. Too bad, we have forgotten this plain vanilla ethic :(

Originally posted by muddur:
I am not saying that critics from people like Medha are unwelcome. But when they claim that the water projects are 'plain useless and waste of money', what alternate do they suggest ? That's what concerns me, more than them being critical.
Mudder, how does a FALSE claim from medha make her a "road blocker" as you accuse her to be? The cold reality that she ONNLY spoke against the project, she NEVER actually used any physical force to block anyone, except a few stray incidents. The judges had used PHYSICAL/LEGAL force to block the engineers from working. Please explain why dont curse judges and instead curse Medha/AR/etc.

... Blocking a project with hunger strike will not solve any problems either.
How does hunger strike block a project? And was it hunger strike or the court's stay order that ACTUALLY blocked engineers from finishing Narmada Dam? It was stay order, NOT the hunger strike. So even if say that a hunger strike can POSSIBLY block a dam in theory, in reality it has NEVER happened. Whereas there are 100s of cases where DDj's rampant irrational stay orders blocked dams/highways and many other contruction projects.

I dont know why you keep cursing thse DD-leftists even when the ACTUAL crime of blocking engineers/workers was committed by DDjs, not DD-leftists.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Katare » 08 Feb 2003 05:53

Sai_NT,

There is very little information available on this project in open source but I believe River interlinking project (RIP) has several dozen dams for water storage and hydropower generation. My guess is that total number of dams (medium size) may range somewhere between 50 to 150 and small size dams/lakes may run into several hundreds if not in thousands. It will also link most of the existing dams (big and small) for optimum utilization of existing capacity. But I think they are not planning any dams of sardar sarovar size under this project. And this is the beauty of RIP, minimum impact on environment, minimum loss of fertile land, minimum displacement still reap the benefit of economy of scale!!

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Kakkaji » 09 Feb 2003 06:12


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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Prateek » 10 Feb 2003 05:13

Interlinking of rivers Earlier awards stay: Prabhu
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/feb10/ipra.asp

Chairman of the Task Force on Interlinking of Rivers Suresh P Prabhu, today said that the task force will not ‘unsettle’ awards in inter-state water disputes, including the Bachawat award and added that the Detailed Project Report pertaining to some river linkages would be finalised by the end of the year.

The project which is estimated to cost around Rs 5,65,000 crore was targeted to be completed in the year 2016. Stating that the task was achievable, he said the funds required worked out to less than one per cent of GDP every year.

Mr Prabhu also said that he would be meeting Indian Space Research Organisation Chairman K Kasturirangan shortly to discuss the satellite technology that could be used. Expertise of IITs in the areas of hydraulics would be tapped. :)

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Saurabh » 10 Feb 2003 15:55

Originally posted by Raj Katare:
[QB]Saurabh

You said you don’t know enough about Narmada/medha but still you call her just and scientific. QB]
Raj,

If you would re read my post you will notice I did not call her (Medha's) cause just. I did however quote my better half - who as I mentioned has done both research and knows enough on the topic to be an expert - as saying her cause is just.

I therefore resent your implication that I have not read up on the topic before posting as also the fact that you have misquoted me.

Thanks

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Sidd » 10 Feb 2003 19:23


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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby s_nick » 11 Feb 2003 00:54

Hi Guyz, i subscribe to india today, and they have an article on the river-linking project. Here are some of the important details:

India Today Magazine
20-1-2003

Project split into 2 =>

Himalayan Connection:
Links - 14
Major Dams - 9
Canal Length - 6099 km
Water to be diverted - 32 983 mill cm
Cost - Rs 184 929 crore *
Power - over 30000 MW

Southern Connection:
Links - 16
Major Dams - 27
Canal Length - 4777 km (incl. 94 km tunnels)
Water to be diverted: 141 288 mill cm
Cost - Rs 105 745 crore *
Power - over 4000 MW

* Total project cost includes Rs 269 326 crore for power projects.

They included a map with the links.
The transportation route is also covered (which rivers linked).

Hope this answers some questions. Personally, i dont see how the project can be financed.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby v_john » 11 Feb 2003 01:12

Originally posted by s_nick:
Personally, i dont see how the project can be financed.
I don't see why not- though when it was first proposed I used to think this was over the top. The cost (US $58 Billion) is over 10 years (I think). Even the recently concluded Global investor meet in Kerala fetched Rs. 30,000 crores in investments, not counting another 10,000 corores from the Centre for various infrastructure projects.

Any idea of which states may be covered under this project?

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Katare » 11 Feb 2003 07:42

s_nic

Is it possible for you to post the map for BR members? it would be great help!!

Thanks in advance!!
Raj

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby s_nick » 11 Feb 2003 13:52

v_john,
Actually the total cost is US $ 117 billion / 560, 000 crore.

With govt. deficits expected to continue.... where will the money come from? If we take loans, there will be huge interest payments! Wats the opportunity cost here (will money be better spent elsewhere)? Dont forget maintenance costs.

Half of the money ($56 billion) will be spent on building structres for power. So the power ministry should foot some part of the bill there.

Raj Katare,
I dont have a scanner, but i will see if i can scan it somewhere.

Some more nuggets:
Proposal - ......will use 56 million tonnes of cement and 2 million tonnes of steel.

Obj - deliver 173 bcm of water (1/4th of brahamputra) through 12500 km maze of canals to irrigate 34 million hectares of land and quench thirst in 101 districts and 5 metros.

Dividend - 34000 MW power and 37 million man-yrs of employment. (approx. how much money will workers get in total @ min wage?)

Rivers linked =>

Himalayan Connection:
From kosi, sarda, ghargra, gandak, manas, aie, raidak, torsa and jaldhaka rivers to Yamuna at Okhla, ganga at narora, sone baxin up to indrapuri barrage and kadwan dam and the yamuna
and ramganga sub-basins.

Southern Connection:
From mahanadi, gadavari, ken parbati, par, tapi and damanganga, pamba, achankovil, netravati and bedti rivers to the deficit basins of krishna, pennar, cauvery, vaigai and vaippar.

Lots of names i have never heard of.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Vishwajeet_th » 11 Feb 2003 17:52

hi guys
Regarding Saraswati

some of you are asking why a project of discovering any underground water stream is bieng linked to history? well as far as I can think it is for two reasons. Firstly the government is thinking that it is in the interest of the nation to discover these streams so to avoid any undue public protest and registering of any cases in supreme courts against spending money on such projects. As this river was in Northern India and given the literacy rate and thier love for ancient history this type of propaganda will bring out public support instead of criticism which is very important for projects of this magnitute. Second reason this will sell much better during election in India rether then saying that it is a project to find any underground water source.

Regarding narmada and Medha partker.

I don't know anything about Medha partker except that she is a very well known person in MP and currently is protesting against raising the height of Sardar Sarovar Dam. I have read many posts hear which says that supreme courts should be to blame for the delay of the project rather then Medha. Well I won;t comment on Medha but as far as Supreme court is concerned I don't think that they should be blamed as we very well know how many cases are filed each day in courts all over India as well as Supreme Court, while the number of judges are still very less. for any such hearing the judges require all the technical study conducted by the government as well as independantly conducted by person who is against it. Given the beauruecratic design of India we all know how much time such things take. Getting a stay order is much easier than actually getting the case solved as it just requires little or no prove. So before blaming the Court do take a note of the amount of work piled on them everyday.

Someone in his post said how a hunger strike can stop the execution of a project. well In India one can bring down a government with hunger strike given the fact he/she have public support. This was proved when U.P government was given to BJP again when vajpayee went on hunger strike. Although the nature was different. This was just an example. What I want to say here is Medha patker has a lot of public support so when someone like her goes on hunger strike it is more like a physical force bieng used to stop the execution of a project. And you all know that a hunger strike brings a lot of public support in India.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Rahul Mehta » 11 Feb 2003 20:29

Originally posted by Vishwajeet_th:
I have read many posts hear which says that supreme courts should be to blame for the delay of the project rather then Medha. Well I won;t comment on Medha but as far as Supreme court is concerned I don't think that they should be blamed as we very well know how many cases are filed each day in courts all over India as well as Supreme Court, while the number of judges are still very less.
Its judges' fault that they admit all TDH (TDH = Tom **** and Harry) type cases in SC. For that matter, US-SC has fewer judges than Indian SC and benches in US-Sc are larger which means there are fewer number of cases going on at a time. But proceeding are fast, as US-SCjs confine themselves to constitutional details ONLY and leave techinical details to lower courts.

In India, DD-SCjs have habit of duplicating EVERY work done by admin and lower courts. Given this foolhardy way of doing work, they will get cases resolved in time.

Also, in specific Narmada case, judges could have admitted the complaint the compensation was too low. But there was no need to impose a stay order on the construction and halt the project. No SCs in US/UK etc behave so irrationally. Also, judge wasted a lot of courts as well as GoGujarat's time by insisting that Govt should give land/houses for lost land/houses. This is nonsense. One time cash and monthly payments are the ONLY things victims round the world get. But judges decide to spend time in nitty gritty details of the "package" that was to be offered to tribals --- eg will the village have a community park, will the park have enough benches, will the village have a building for school etc etc. The whole issue could have been short-cicuited by just giving them one-tiume cash and monthly payments for say X years.

So indeed DD-SCjs have dealt with the rehab case in the most foolish way and thus delayed the project.

for any such hearing the judges require all the technical study conducted by the government as well as independantly conducted by person who is against it.
Why is there a need for techinical study? All you need to check is whether GoGujarat was paying MORE than what tribals were loosing. Thats it.

Someone in his post said how a hunger strike can stop the execution of a project. well In India one can bring down a government with hunger strike given the fact he/she have public support.
Hunger strikes dont casuse ANY sound AT ALL. "If you ever plan to go on hunger strike, let me know, I shall come and eat your share of food" is the repsonse of typical Nbj these days to hunger strikers.

-Rahul Mehta

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Kakkaji » 11 Feb 2003 23:30

Govt to seek pvt sector help in river-linking

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_159867,0008.htm

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby v_john » 12 Feb 2003 00:28

Originally posted by s_nick:
v_john,
Actually the total cost is US $ 117 billion / 560, 000 crore.

With govt. deficits expected to continue.... where will the money come from? If we take loans, there will be huge interest payments! Wats the opportunity cost here (will money be better spent elsewhere)? Dont forget maintenance costs.


Take a look at this article:

India's forex kitty swells on illegal dollar inflow

Rough estimates suggest that Indian businessmen and politicians have over $150 billion parked in numbered accounts in countries such as Switzerland, Luxembourg and the Cayman Islands. Most of this money has been taken out of the country through under-invoicing of exports and over-invoicing of imports, which is now slowly coming back to India, primarily through over-invoicing of exports. A part of it, bankers guess, may also have returned as foreign currency gifts which can be maintained in foreign currency (domestic) accounts that were recently permitted by the reserve bank.
Private participation in such projects comes through people with money not yet declared. If, as this article suggests, Resident Indians hold $150 billion abroad, and some of it is indeed coming back, then why not offer a greater incentive to park it in infrastructure projects, instead of getting it simply taxed? Besides, money that just flows in and is not invested, would trigger a massive inflation.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Feb 2003 01:06


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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Feb 2003 03:50

River link-up plan in Delhi pipeline

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1030212/asp/nation/story_1662369.asp

Lot of details

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby saint » 12 Feb 2003 05:04

Originally posted by RajeevT:
Private fund may be sought to link rivers

Rs. 5,600 billion 34,000 MW power [16.5 crores per megawatt approx].. is it cheap?? how correct are these estimations? someone?

and he says, the feasibility report is ready and perfected by satellite imagery.

can some one with links throw more light!! including maps, images etc.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby malnv » 12 Feb 2003 05:13

Its not all about Power!
Main purpose is getting water to remote areas - for the purpose of drinking,irrigation etc.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Vick » 12 Feb 2003 06:51

Government puts its weight behind river project

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EB12Df05.html

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Katare » 12 Feb 2003 07:49

Sai_NT

5600 billions is the cost of total project, power component will cost 2693 billion i.e. is 7.25 crore/MW. Capital cost for hydro projects are much higher compared to Thermal power plants but operating cost is much less because fuel cost, fuel transportation cost, maintenance cost and ash disposal cost is almost zero. That makes it easier to recover capital cost quicker than in thermal plants.

But here is the trick, a lot of this power will be used to lift the water in the canals over the mountains. They better start talking to Kokan railway and western Petro/mining companies to learn modern drilling technologies, especially horizontal/lateral/inclined drilling. US companies have drilled up to 5 mile horizontally in Alaska also Canadian mining companies has one of the most advanced deep and remote drilling technologies. We need to do it right and do it right at first place, I hope they won’t get in the indigenous technology trap but go global.

Funding will be difficult, but power ministry can finance a huge portion for power plants. An independent authority/regulator like NHAI with full commercial power can arrange funds. Also some part of the machinery/power plants can be imported on the bilateral concessional foreign loans (like Delhi metro/Japan). Private companies can be roped in on BOOT basis for major waterways and metro water supply systems (like NHDP). Some part of it should come from World Bank and ADB (Pakistan received huge loans for developing Indus basin). Planning commission can finance some of the project cost from it's kitty. Also PSU’s like BHEL/NHDP/NTPC etc can be asked to take some equity in the commercially viable part of the project for supplying machinery/material/expertise (like dabhol/GE/Beachtel). LIC/Govt Mutual funds can be roped in on commercial basis by subscribing long term bonds. NRI, philanthropists and angel investors can bring in their pennies too. User charges should be imposed to generate at least maintenance and operating cost. Finally central and benefiting state govts. can finance non commercial parts of the project with budgetary support or by water Tax/levy.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Vishwajeet_th » 12 Feb 2003 11:33

Rahul
You may be right about the working of the US judges. i can't argue on that as I don't know anything about it. Whereas India is concerned in India if the SC gives its verdict on the bases of what u have said then if it goes according to wishes of the activists its good else they start mass protest, strike and other stuffs if u use physical force to stop them u r supressing human rights. If you are not then after a week or two it takes a political shape. where all the political parties wants to cash on it. Secondly the SC judges did gave an order i think in the manner what you were describing above in CNG case what was the result Sheela Dixit goes public and says she is ready to go to jail but she won't follow the verdict. what was it for vote bank. Verdicts like those can be good in US where there is mass awareness wide public debate but not in India. Its a different thing that we all here want the SC to follow that course of line but for that we have to make the masses aware. While all we are doing is giving our views here. which is good but then it has a very low reach. I can't say about me as I am not on my feets yet and secondly I am not in India as well. But if u can then please do it. we might in the near future may be able to evolve such a system. I have got no plans to go on hunger strike yet but u are always welcome to have my share of food whenever u want.

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Feb 2003 00:43


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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Vishwajeet_th » 13 Feb 2003 16:16

Given the fact that many of the rivers in India are filing up of garbage and other harmful chemicals. E.G yamuna in Delhi. Wouldn't river linking would make it a country wide problem rather than a problem in one area. Hope this problem is also addressed along with the additional amount of land that will be irrigated and power generated. I am mainly looking for any information that you guys can provide on this issue. thanks

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Re: Water: Linking major rivers in India

Postby Kakkaji » 14 Feb 2003 21:27

From 'Hindu News Update' of Feb. 14, 2003
(link is temporary)

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/01141806.htm

**************
River linking project to start by 2004: Prabhu

Pune, Feb. 14. (PTI): Stating that there was no opposition to the national river linking project from any quarters, chairman of the National River-linking Task Force, Suresh Prabhu, has said that the work on the project will commence by 2004.

"The feasibility report is nearing completion. Also the Chief Ministers of several States and all major political parties, including the BJP, Congress, Shiv Sena and the TDP, have given green signal for the project," Prabhu told reporters on the sidelines of a book release function here yesterday.

Claiming that the project will be environment-friendly, Prabhu said the task force will use satellite imagery before finalising the proposed river links. The project will take at least 15 years, he said and added money will not be a problem.

The Government would raise the required money through loans, taxes and user charges, Prabhu added.
*************


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