Why has it become so cool to hate India

Sai · Post by **Sai** » 11 May 2003 23:15

Originally posted by acharya:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=308958

Colliding barbarisms: Demystifying history

Anybody knows what is the "ethnicity" of Premen Addy? I mean from which subculture of India is he from?

debjani · Post by **debjani** » 11 May 2003 23:37

Originally posted by Sai:

Originally posted by acharya:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=308958

Colliding barbarisms: Demystifying history

Anybody knows what is the "ethnicity" of Premen Addy? I mean from which subculture of India is he from?

Bengali

Sanjay Joshi · Post by **Sanjay Joshi** » 11 May 2003 23:45

A "foreigner" like Mr Gautier and a "local" like Ms Roy. What a WORLD of a difference.

Originally posted by Nirdesh:
GAUTIER honored by PM-
Time to kick out Alex perrys-

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=NATION&file_name=nt8%2Et xt&counter_img=8

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 May 2003 00:04

Familiarity breeds excessive contempt

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 00:23

Two reasons why it is easier to consider India as a doormat and hence it is cool to hate it.
1)Parliamentarins from Pakistan visit India and many MP's from India including ex-PM's fall head over heel to please them. Nobody gives a two penny thought to ask them or bully them to go and offer their two minute silence at the Samadhi/ plaque of the cops who were killed in trying to protect INDIAN PARLIAMENT /MPs.Since, they are MPs from a country which instigated and plotted this. Do our MP's have any sense of personal gratitude to those cops,leave alone sense of pride in that great institution.
2) Afganistan has been " freed" and India offers buses / hospitals etc. Not a news item that we demanded and got the files regarding what happened during that IA hijacking episode when Rajdeep Sardesai was screaming in the star TV that our " govt was adament" and was instigating relatives of the passengers. I think, we { I mean Press/ Govt/ experts/] are not even keeping track of what happened to those hijackers. Should we not catch them where-ever they are or arrange to assasinate them after proclaimimg it openly.
Let us be clear, Indians are considered as a useless bunch of losers/whiners --some of the individual Indians of course are liked / respected as professionals in USA / UK.
Period.
Coupled with this we have the habit of self-flaggelation--AR,PB,Mishra et all
Because we are Masochistic a Sadistic Pakistan can prevail in the west as an embodiment of " peace and love" .

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 12 May 2003 03:01

Ray, are you sure Premen Addy is a Bengali name? Premen sounds very Mallu. Don't tell me it's another 50-50 joint venture like Arundhoti...

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 May 2003 04:22

These wounds are all self-inflicted.

Aside from the failed state of Pakiland, there is very little anti-Indian rhetoric in the world.

I've read nothing recently in the American papers that paint India or Indians in a bad light.

Now the DDM, that's another matter.

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 12 May 2003 05:40

May I reflect for a moment that the term "ddm" (proper usage is without capitalization) has now become part of desi angrezi?

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 05:55

What is ddm?

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 12 May 2003 06:00

desi dork media

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 06:03

Narayan
Thanks a lot--it is the most appropriate title for TOI, The Hindu etc
_____________

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 06:06

sorry narayanan--
it was unintentional to have shortened your nice name.

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 12 May 2003 06:20

Historical note from the Official BR Lexicon on "ddm"

ddm: noun descriptive. Usage: small letters at all times regardless of place in sentence.

origin: V. Bhosle slammed the "dorks" who wrote the usual garbage about the Indian Army during the Kargil war. Coined on BRF immediately thereafter in "honor" thereof.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 May 2003 06:43

We have a unique situation of a nation of 1 billion with a general observation that the educated elite of the nation has an influential core of naysayers and the constant India cursing bunch whose previously unopposed views are being called into question.

Where did these people, whose views are echoed by some in my father's generation and certainly some in my generation come from? Why do they exist?

The observation that vast swathes of Indian society had sunk into a total inward looking state with a strong ability to crtiticise itself and mock any attempt at looking up or out has been made very clearly by VS Naipaul. His first two India books are IMO essential reading for any Indian who can read english. You may not agree with all his observationns - but he speaks like a person steeped in Indian culture kept alive in a faraway land returning to find a defeated civilization. The books are "An area of darkness" and "India a wounded civilization"

But he offers no explanation - only observations.

I find many reasons for the overall impression among some Indians that "all is bad in India" and many are historic. None of these reasons have totally disapeared today - but many of the reasons are being swept away.

I don't have any doubt that much of the nation was perhaps sinking into decadence when it was assaulted and subjugated by the Mughal empire. But I believe that even that empire and its beneficiaries were eventually firmly and forcefully pushed into oblivion by the hyper-power of the day - the British empire. This empire had the economic dominance, global reach and military power of the US today, and they came and took over, one by one the culturally united but warring states of India.

Kaushal has referred to the "Macaulayization" of India. Macaulay represented the British and realized that Britain had a huge industrial economy that needed consumers for its expansion and survival. He suggested that India be "educated" to appreciate the goodness of such industrial output so that British goods could enjoy a vast new market.

He suggested that the language of education of India should be english, because he felt and said that all the existing literature in Indian languages did not have as much information as was there in a 3rd standard British textbook of his day. He also said that it would be impossible for the British to directly educate a vast mass of Indians and he suggested that a special class of educated Indians be created - a class of Indians who were British in their behaviour and outlook - brown sahibs essentially, who would then teach their fellow Indians about the good things industrial Britain was producing.

The British Government of India, starting from their strong presence in Calcuta did JUST that. Macaulay's idea is credited with having created the "Bengali babu" who was impeccably British in speech, taste and behaviour and held all things Indian in great contempt.

But this was only the "first layer/first generation" of people who held India and Indians in contempt.

The second layer is more recent, even post independence.

Gandhi used "economic sanctions" on Britain - and coaxed Indians to stop consuming British goods (esp textiles) to put British Industries out of business. Indians were told that it is cool to accept and use lower quality locally available stuff rather than the better quality imported maal. I guess that laid the seed of the thought that "Swadeshi can be and is low quality, videshi "phoren" is high quality". India's socialist self-denying post independence protectionist policies that allowed the FIAT 1100s and Ambbassadors to live on led to a second wave of people genuinely disgusted with Indian quality and competence.

That is changing only now. Literally and unbelieveably in the last 10 years. It's almost too good to believe. The choice of anything that Indians have has multiplied enrmously. 10 years is such a short time that it is difficult to believe that it can last - but I think an unstoppable wave has started.

Sorry this is so long, but one last word (by me) about Indian society in the light of Naipauls "wounded civilization" observation.

I believe that Indian society reacted to external assault by uniquely hiding and concentrating its culrure into the core family. Cultural values, religion, folklore, attire were protected and preserved by an inner circle of women, grandmothers, mothers and daughters, looking after the children, while the men went out and interacted with the incumbent rulers. The men subjugated themselves and changed themselves, adopted foreign languages and customs and dress in exchange for having his core family and custom left alone. And perhaps that explains how indic culture survived?

Even today one finds the Indian male switching into nonIndian dress and non Indians habits and lenguage, while the "core culture", including dress, remains with the inner circle - the women and children of the family. The boys are allowed to go out and change - but the girls are pushed into culture, music, dance and family values.

As the threat to the Indic civilization abates, that is set to change.

JMT.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 May 2003 07:34

Originally posted by Nirdesh:
GAUTIER honored by PM-

For me, the best part about Gautier is the fact that he too hails from a town in which holds a huge chunk of my heart - Pondicherry.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 12 May 2003 07:59

Originally posted by JE Menon:
Ray, are you sure Premen Addy is a Bengali name? Premen sounds very Mallu. Don't tell me it's another 50-50 joint venture like Arundhoti...

We had an English teacher by the name of Addy. A Christian Bengali totally immersed in India. If there was ever a Hindu Christian, he was it.

debjani · Post by **debjani** » 12 May 2003 09:07

Premen and Auddy are both common names and surnames in Bengal. There was an Admiral called Auddy from the Submarine arm. He was in my car pool in Delhi.

Added Later

Though there are some Bengalis who falaciously calim the following:

1. Aduie Murphy, the film hero of 'To Hell and Back' is a Bengali.
2. Colin Cowdry, the MCC Captain, is actually Kalyan Chaudhuri and a Bengali

Keralites claim:
1. That Shakespeare is actually a Mopla who is in actuality, Sheik Pyare.

sanjay_chawla · Post by **sanjay_chawla** » 12 May 2003 09:57

Originally posted by shiv:
We have a unique situation of a nation of 1 billion with a general observation that the educated elite of the nation has an influential core of naysayers and the constant India cursing bunch whose previously unopposed views are being called into question.

I think there are some economic incentives to write material which is "condescending" of India and Indians in general. Why that is so is hard to explain but the solution is to have economic incentives in INDIA to do otherwise.

For example the New Republic and the Weekly Standard are platforms for the center-left and center-right in the US. Both of them are money-losing operations but invaluable in terms of influence. Some Indian industrialist needs to finance slick policy magazines which has a strong national security slant.

To be a famous Indian writer one has to sell their writings overseas. No Indian(including NRIs) would have cared if Arundhati Roy had not first won the Booker Prize.

If you read the biography of Swami Prabhupad, the founder of ISKCON, you get the impression that he also realised that to win over Indians you first have to win over foreigners and then the Indians will come in droves.

Sanjay

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 12 May 2003 17:45

>>Keralites claim:
1. That Shakespeare is actually a Mopla who is in actuality, Sheik Pyare.

Not to mention Cleopatra (Keralaputri), of the Nila Nadhi i.e. the Blue Nile -

someone shoot me before the "Aryans" do... :whine:

But in all honesty, Shakespeare has already been appropriated by Libya, with none other than Col Qadhafi (he of the Green Book and the Third Universal Theory) that Shakespeare is in fact a corruption of Shaikh Al Zubair... so there!!!

Seriously, Premen is a name in Kerala (means something like lover I think). There was a famous filmstar of yore with that name - dunno if he's still alive.

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 12 May 2003 17:54

That would be Prem Nazir? Or was there a predecessor? These days everything has been simplified to single-syllable names suitable for compatibility with the unisex Aryan nomenclature.

Surely everyone knows about Sheik Pyare or Keralaputri, but did u know Othello was "Oathill" and Shylock was stylized from "Shaji".

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 12 May 2003 18:07

N, I have no clue... Just that my parents used to go to the "Premen" movie at the Malayalee Samajam cinema in Abu Dhabi many moons ago. Must be the same. Unlikely there were two "heroes" with the same name.

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 12 May 2003 18:56

How can you guys forget the most famous bengali scientist ? Nutan/Nootan whose name is distorted and spelt as Newton. :p

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 21:08

Narayanan
I thought Shakespeare was actually Sekkapu Iyer{ red coloured Iyer} and A-braham was A-Brahmana { one who was an ex-communicated Brahmin] etc.
________
Incidentally when Sheperd { the umpire] visited Chennai he was facilitated by the Kurubaras { lamb/sheep grazers]--

You and Menon seems to have a different perspective!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 May 2003 21:10

Please cut down the non relevant stuff on here folks.

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 21:18

What a place to write about " anti Democratic tendencies in india"--The item taken from " the hindu" by the Daily Times.
Wonder if the Daily times has permission of The Hindu or do they have some understanding?

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=309179

Anti democratic tendencies in Indian politics and society

By Aruna Roy, Bela Bhatia, Jean Dreze, Nikhil Dey & Prashant Bhushan

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 12 May 2003 21:33

From the above sulekha article.

It is funny to see these anti-national traitors portraying themselves as the last line of defense against the "evil nationalistic hordes" that have a problem with people who kowtow to the pakistani agenda of creating divisions in Indian civil society.

Just strengthens my resolve to let the DDMs know that they are a bunch of useless cretins every time they write an anti-India article.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 12 May 2003 21:53

Originally posted by shiv:

Even today one finds the Indian male switching into nonIndian dress and non Indians habits and lenguage, while the "core culture", including dress, remains with the inner circle - the women and children of the family. The boys are allowed to go out and change - but the girls are pushed into culture, music, dance and family values.

This is not entirely true or rather partially ture. It is true that men are adopting to the changes faster than woman, but if you see woman are no less behind. I think this has to do with the security that families (both men and woman) feel regarding the changes in the family (men, woman and kids). They do not get subjugated or threatened with these changes and if balance can be maintained (explains dance, music and culture), the changes can always be incorporated into the life. There is a greater acceptance of cultures among Indians - Culture, dresses, cusine, festivals crossing state borders (within India) very easily and finding acceptance than ever before. I think you are in the right direction when you said about the way Indic civilisation survived - by maintaining the balance.

Vijnan · Post by **Vijnan** » 12 May 2003 23:10

Originally posted by rvaidya:
What a place to write about " anti Democratic tendencies in india"--The item taken from " the hindu" by the Daily Times.
Wonder if the Daily times has permission of The Hindu or do they have some understanding?

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=309179

Anti democratic tendencies in Indian politics and society

By Aruna Roy, Bela Bhatia, Jean Dreze, Nikhil Dey & Prashant Bhushan

mong recent targets of the ideological police is Harsh Mander, who stirred the conscience of the nation last year with his early report on the Gujarat massacres. Ever since he dared to step out of line in this matter, Mr Mander has been troubled by state authorities, Hindutva organisations, and their supporters. Many attempts have been made to tarnish his reputation and thereby discredit his testimonies on Gujarat. In addition, he has been the target of a relentless e-mail campaign. Among other allegations, Mr Mander has been accused of distorting the facts, of acting on behalf of foreign interests, and of seeking publicity or other personal advantage in his incisive reports and subsequent quitting of the IAS. These charges are bound to sound patently absurd to anyone familiar with Mr Mander, his life and his values. Mr Mander is a person of exceptional selflessness and integrity, who strictly followed his conscience in this matter, as he had done throughout his eventful career as an IAS officer. This career often led him to confront powerful individuals and institutions as he stood unflinchingly on the side of the underprivileged. The system responded by transferring him 20 times in 18 years. Mr Mander was always ready to move, knowing that subordinating one’s conscience to the demands of power was the first step towards collaboration with authoritarianism. It is the same conviction that led him to speak out on Gujarat. In short, the real aim of these grave insinuations is not just to discredit Mr Mander as a person, but also to undermine the principles of equity, justice, humaneness and secularism that he has championed. The same applies to further calumnies that were subsequently aimed at individuals and organisations that stand in solidarity with Mr Mander and uphold similar values.

That still leaves me confused, did this selfless person oozing with integrity actually resign in protest or did the merely retire ( in protest???) with full benefits and what his salary is?

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 23:16

Another India Bashing--this time by New Hamshire assembly--Wa! Wa!
I thought New Hamshire is a one street place where smuggled cigarettes are sold!!
This after the chir travelled to Pakistan!!
________________
New Hampshire, a tiny east coast state, has passed a resolution condemning India for alleged atrocities in Jammu and Kashmir. House Concurrent Resolution (HCR) 16 was introduced in the state legislature by Republican House majority leader Paul Guida who visited Pakistan.
_______________________
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownewsdata.asp?newsno=19458&newscat=Top

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 12 May 2003 23:22

vijnan-Anand
________________

That still leaves me confused, did this selfless person oozing with integrity actually resign in protest or did the merely retire ( in protest???) with full benefits and what his salary is?
____________
It is very interesting that only after completing 20 years of service in Government--the minimum needed for full benefits-- these "rebels without a pause" come out and shout. Same thing with Mender--who waited for the mandatory period to be completed. Why is it conscience pricks only on the first day of 21st year of service? Anyone could explain?

Kuttan · Post by **Kuttan** » 13 May 2003 00:18

Why is it conscience pricks only on the first day of 21st year of service? Anyone could explain?

You don't think ACTION AID would give the post of Managing Director (or whatever, equivalent to COAS) for India to a guy who was known for having a "conscience", do you?

You need to read those letters written by his assistant, Beena somebody, about the exact nature of his activities...

Vijnan · Post by **Vijnan** » 13 May 2003 00:35

Originally posted by narayanan:

Why is it conscience pricks only on the first day of 21st year of service? Anyone could explain?
You don't think ACTION AID would give the post of Managing Director (or whatever, equivalent to COAS) for India to a guy who was known for having a "conscience", do you?

You need to read those letters written by his assistant, Beena somebody, about the exact nature of his activities...

We had a thread about him remember, I wrote to him during that time, he didn't respond. Wonder why this honest person, oozing the milk of kindness from all the pores in his body keeps quiet and does not answer the inconvienient questions raised by the evil nationalists.

chola · Post by **chola** » 13 May 2003 01:43

Originally posted by narayanan:
May I reflect for a moment that the term "ddm" (proper usage is without capitalization) has now become part of desi angrezi?

I propose we keep the initials of the Desi Dork Media capitalized as the West once had known the USSR or the PRC. That is, as an acronym of the enemy.

The DDM is no small a threat to the health of Bharat that justifies low caps.

mohankk · Post by **mohankk** » 13 May 2003 02:06

originally posted by Sanjay_Chawla:If you read the biography of Swami Prabhupad, the founder of ISKCON, you get the impression that he also realised that to win over Indians you first have to win over foreigners and then the Indians will come in droves

Sanjay - That is very perceptive and true.
I believe - though, this tendancy - is gradually being replaced - as more and more Indian made products are succeding in the global markets. IT is playing a major role in this transformation. Soon enough it will be bio-tech and automobile parts flooding world markets.
Are you the same Sanjay_Chawla - who once enlightened me with a gem - " Paki Punjabi soldiers are brothers of Indian's across the border" ?

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 13 May 2003 02:33

Are you the same Sanjay_Chawla

A Beautiful Mind

Gayatri · Post by **Gayatri** » 13 May 2003 05:09

Hey Shiv- I totally agree with you.
and tracing the impact of british rule on it- it does make sense.
Venkat R - as a woman I see a lot of what Shiv is saying in real life - for eg , not just dress - take diet - many of the brahmin men take to meat/non veg food, but the most of the brahmin women remain strict vegetarians - both are raised vegetarians at home.

many men no longer wear punal/sacred thread or if they do, dont do sandhyavanandam but the women will do the lakshmi pujas, saraswati puja, krishna jayanti apart from daily pujas to the family's dieties.

Note, personally I am NOT a "modern" feminist and seeing women as martyrs in everything,
neither am I a die hard traditional conservative.

But I dont think it is a case of who "adapts to change faster" . I will however say that these days, with women getting more freedom with careers,education, monetary freedom, they get more CHOICE about which traditions they want to inculcate (subtle social pressure against this, is immense of course, and still there)

Sanjay Joshi · Post by **Sanjay Joshi** » 13 May 2003 05:25

Originally posted by Gayatri Srinivasan:
Hey Shiv- I totally agree with you.
and tracing the impact of british rule on it- it does make sense.
Venkat R - as a woman I see a lot of what Shiv is saying in real life - for eg , not just dress - take diet - many of the brahmin men take to meat/non veg food, but the most of the brahmin women remain strict vegetarians - both are raised vegetarians at home.

many men no longer wear punal/sacred thread or if they do, dont do sandhyavanandam but the women will do the lakshmi pujas, saraswati puja, krishna jayanti apart from daily pujas to the family's dieties.

Amazing insight!

And very true too, especially in my case

R Vaidya · Post by **R Vaidya** » 13 May 2003 05:48

Gayatri Srinivasan
_____________________
But I dont think it is a case of who "adapts to change faster" . I will however say that these days, with women getting more freedom with careers,education, monetary freedom, they get more CHOICE about which traditions they want to inculcate ________
very correct.
The woman's ability to traverse to and fro the "Madisar" Pudavai { Saree] to Madison Avenue
is the critical thing. Men move in a uni-directional way whileas woman can be " traversing" [ back and forth]without worry or unwanted concerns. Basically Indian woman are more " rooted" and "confident" than men.
They are not easily swayed by appearances I have seen it in many Pattis[ grannys] who are not taken in by the apperances in /of USA.
That is why perhaps-- interestingly from Rama Krishna Parahamsa to Mahatma thought that india is safe in the hands of woman / woman power
Another thing is women have more longer term perspective than the average man.It is because most of the woman who are in their forties/ fifties today--- are the ones who grew up in a rationed economy where coffee powder to wheat to rice were bought standing in queues if one has grown up in India of the fifties and sixties and woman stood in those queues.So they are more cautious and have longer term perspective.
I am not sure of girls in their teens.
Anyhow--
three cheers to them

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2003 06:34

Originally posted by Venkat R:

Originally posted by shiv:

Even today one finds the Indian male switching into nonIndian dress and non Indians habits and lenguage, while the "core culture", including dress, remains with the inner circle - the women and children of the family. The boys are allowed to go out and change - but the girls are pushed into culture, music, dance and family values.

This is not entirely true or rather partially ture. It is true that men are adopting to the changes faster than woman, but if you see woman are no less behind. I think this has to do with the security that families (both men and woman) feel regarding the changes in the family (men, woman and kids). They do not get subjugated or threatened with these changes and if balance can be maintained (explains dance, music and culture), the changes can always be incorporated into the life.

There is a very distinct and noticable Indian tendency to split family life from work-life. And "Work-life" as in "work away from home to earn a living" has been male dominated in Indian (if not most) societies.

The first description in literature I saw about this phenomenon (family life and behaviour very different from workplace culture) was in Robert Kanigel's biography of the mathematician Ramanujam, where the author could well have been talking about my grandfather without changing any words.

I was reminded of this schizophrenic existence recently when I was invited, here in Bangalore to a party of a large circle of friends - mostly doctors and their families (RAPE equivalent of Bangalore) and we were asked to appear in "Indian ethnic costumes". This "light-hearted, fun" idea only meant that THE MEN needed to find smart sherwani type stuff to wear to make change from their shirt-tie type workwear. For the women, it meant nothing. At work or at home in India the women wear the same type of clothes - either sarees or salwar kameez. Only recently have I seen the younger generation of Indian women comfortably switching out of this.

But Indian women "going out to work" is a relatively recent phenomenon - except for female Indian domestic workers ("servants") in feudal set-ups. So if we go back a hundred or two hundred years ..

Why did Indian men change their appearance and habits at the workplace only to return to the "womb" at home. For army personnel under the British perhaps a dress code was esential.

But for civilians? Could it be Macaulayization?

It could well have been Macaulayization or Westernization, but that change was only a "put-on" - a pretence for harmony at the workplace. Back at home everything was back to nornal. Nothing was allowed to change at home - and that kept a very old culture alive.

I am not saying that this was all good. While retaining "Indian practices" at home, Indians also retained "Indian prejucies and bigotry" at home - which were actually removed at the workplace. So its a mixed bag.

As modern day Indians it is upto us to remove the wheat from the chaff and to keep the "good" that was protected in the core family culture and reject what was "bad, prejudiced, bigoted or plain superstitious"

debjani · Post by **debjani** » 13 May 2003 09:36

Shiv,

Its a great pleasure to read your posts.

It could be that I am as young as you are and so it appeals. Actually, I don't know your age but the thoughts and maturity would not come from the hip hop lot.

OK, the hip hop lot, I am sure you will haul me over the coals. I asked for it and so I must grin and bear it!