Why has it become so cool to hate India

debjani
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby debjani » 13 May 2003 10:01

Shiv,

Talking of army dress codes that you mentioned.

I had gone to a Cultural Soireee in my dhoti and kurta [the type you see in these Bengali zaminder movies]. I decided to drop in at the Commandant’s house, which was nearby since I had not ‘called on’ the lady. I clean forgot that I was in a dhoti and kurta, no mater how sophisticated a look that it may have been.

The Commandant opened the door. He was genuinely shocked.

‘Yes?’ he said.

‘Sir, I am calling on’.

‘Wonderful, but isn’t it a quaint dress that you have on?’ Senior officers never admonished you at home, they sort of gave a deflected rebuke, that was made official the next day in office in the form of a ‘kick’. Of course, I am not suggesting that seniors were donkeys, but the kick was as bad as that of a donkey.

I realised the faux pas. Now, I knew that I would be ‘had’ next morning and so I adopted a nonchalant air, of course with due deference. As the famous saying goes – if **** is inevitable, might as well lie down and enjoy it.

‘Oh this, sir? I was being mere ethnic. Remember sir you said - be proud to be an Indian?’

‘Ah yes’, said this tall Commandant of mine who by appearance looked a close kin of the demon kin Ravana, though he had one head. ‘Come in, old boy’ said the Ravana kin.

After sometime, he asked what drink I would have. Obviously at that hour it could only be whisky and calling on officially was just for 20 minutes!

‘Ah, a whisky? Sorry old fellow. With that dress, all I can offer is a nimbupani. Ethnic, did you say?’

So with an ethnic insipid drink, my calling on ended.

That’s what happens when you stray from the official line!

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Cybaru » 13 May 2003 10:09

Sire,

Can I have more writeups/stories, if you have any more to share like the last time ? I totally enjoyed the first one.

I will send you my email-id at your yahoo account. One with your nick name..

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 13 May 2003 10:21

Thanks for the compliment Ray - and I guess a man is as young as he feels though I am not all that youg chronologically

Your interesting comments about ethinc dress fit in really well with an incident that occured in Bangalore Club a (Foremrly called the "United Services Club" under the raj).

A Lawyer, dressed impeccably in a white Dhoti and Kurta was not allowed in by the doorman for not following dress regulation. This led to a big noise and news publicity.

The real facts are that the rule book clearly states that Indian clothes (neat and clean) are allowed as gora aadmi would accept a suit/tie.

The problem was that the poor doorman had the "ye olde" colonial enslved mindset and felt that clothes that HE would wear must be disallowed. He was wrong.

More about the club. Even today some of the older employees puff up their chests, snap to attention and answer with a smart "Yes massa" when addressed by Gora aadmi or gori mem saab guests. Us locals are not entitled to such a response. An enslaved mindset takes far longer to wash away than the actual slavery.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Atish » 13 May 2003 10:24

Ray,

Wasnt the attitude of the Demon King a little colonial in ur op? I wud be ****ed and would say so (in a civilian setup of course, the worst they can do is fire u big deal).

Shivji,

One thing that has been bugging me a little for a while. Are you sure that Rushdies' latest book is good stuff. I was surprised to see good review from u of all ppl.. I think his articles in mags are insufferable arrogant tripe. And the Satanic verses and Midnight children were just a pain to decipher in the first few pages, strange literary style and whatnot.

Cheers.
Atish

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby venkat_r » 13 May 2003 11:43

Shivji, Could not agree with you more on your observations. Looking at knowledge, maturity and clear thoughts in your posts consistantly, sometimes I wonder how much of extensive reading has been made or you might have lived outside of India for some time. Hats off to you.

I was kind of commentinig more on the changes in the last 20-15 years internally in India. And the changes that are coming about in India esp in Indian woman seem to be much broader than is being ack. For example my mother and some of my aunts being in the teaching profession used to comment on the dress wear of the girls in the schools. The dressing patterns of girls in "Telugu or Kannada Medium" differes from the "English Medium", from CBSE to ICSC schools (From very traditional to very modern). The classes were distinct and you can predict what the girl is studying from what she is wearing. But today, these distinctions blur very quickly as the acceptance and adaptability seem to be increasing very rapidly, mostly due to the TV factor.

Also to Gayatri's point about Indian women being more Puja oriented, it is ture that Indians (both men and women) have a deeper anchor in their religion and family than many others and it is one of the most distinct features of Indians. It all goes back to having balance in thier lives. Only in India it is said that religion, customs and traditions, costumes, cusine, monsoon, festivals, business, language, planetary system, god, family... etc are so much interwoven that they often become inseparable.By the way even when selecting for crack commando teams anywhere they check to see if that person has an anchor in atleast one of the two(family or religion), else they fear they might be training a potential psychopath.

Also these habits of men and women differ and depend upon many other factors. For example it is very common for Indian women(working) not to wear "Mangalsutra" in US to work, where as even if you see some movies or TV serials, it is almost impossible to spot a scene ( how ever obscene or hip hop it is) to spot a woman with out the same.

Another observation is that it is amazing to see how the same woman who were very docile and tempered in India become very dynamic coming out of the India (the same goes for the woman coming from a rural background to a Urban area), well I tend to think that it is because they were never docile, but just performing their role according to their immediate society.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 13 May 2003 12:14

Given what this thread is about, what do people think of inviting the UN monitoring into India, as this person has done?


http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13151093

By P C Vinoj Kumar in Chennai
Tuesday, 13 May , 2003, 01:21

In a move fraught with far reaching consequences, the Tamil Nadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam (TMMK) president Professor M H Jawahirullah, has appealed for appointing an United Nations Special Rapporteur to India, and has invited the world body's Special Rapporteur on the Freedom of Religion and Belief to visit India.
The TMMK leader, who is in Geneva to attend the Untied Nations Working Group on Minorities, raised the Gujarat incidents, Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) leader Praveen Togadia's trident distribution spree, and the anti-conversion laws passed by the Tamil Nadu and Gujarat governments.

A statement released by the TMMK office in Chennai on Monday carried the complete text of Jawahirullah's speech on the minority situation in India in the Working Group.

Making an intervention about the "great threat to the life, honour, dignity and religious freedom of the Minorities in India," the TMMK leader alleged that the past decade has witnessed a number of unfortunate incidents, which, he said, had violated the rights of minorities specially the Muslims and Christians.

He said the VHP, "a militant right wing Hindu organization," was threatening to transform more than 35,000 mosques in the country into temples.

The Muslim leader regretted that the Government of India had not initiated any positive steps to instill confidence in the minds of the minorities about their security to life and honor in the aftermath of the "genocide in Gujarat."

Accusing the Gujarat government of discriminatory attitude towards Muslims, he quoted newspaper reports and alleged that some of the Muslims accused in the Godhra incident had been injected with a serum that dulled their senses.

He said Muslims faced a blanket social and economic boycott in Gujarat and accused the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal and the BJP of engaging in a hate campaign against the Muslims and the other minorities.

"There is no doubt that these acts are a blatant violation of Article 1.1 of the UN Declaration of Minority Rights as well as the Indian Penal Code. However the Government of India has not taken any steps to stall such hate campaigns which it is duty bound to do," he said.

While on the anti-conversion law issue, he said that the recent laws of the State government of Tamil Nadu and Gujarat on religious conversions were meant to restrict the freedom to convert to religion of one's choice.

He said these laws not only violated the freedom of Minorities like Muslims and Christians to propagate their religion but also that of Indian citizens who might want to adopt the religion of their choice.


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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby debjani » 13 May 2003 13:34

No, my Commandant was not wrong. If that was the rule, then I was wrong.

Discipline I reckon comes first, stupid that it may be. Thats why we win wars! Remember tht guy who would not climb Tololing because he might get killed? Valid point, but not so when you are in the Army.

MF Hussein walked into a Club barefooted in Cal and he got chucked out. I reckon, there has to be a line. Or else, a Digamber saint may walk in nude and some silly Westerner present may get ga ga causing a law and order problem!

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 13 May 2003 15:10

Originally posted by arindam:
Given what this thread is about, what do people think of inviting the UN monitoring into India, as this person has done?


By P C Vinoj Kumar in Chennai
Tuesday, 13 May , 2003, 01:21

In a move fraught with far reaching consequences, the Tamil Nadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam (TMMK) president Professor M H Jawahirullah, has appealed for appointing an United Nations Special Rapporteur to India,
Hey Arindam - there are two issues here IMO

a)A crank saying all sorts of stuff

b)A ddm journo writing that this is a "move fraught with far reaching consequences"

I am not sure which one makes me laugh harder.
Prof wotzisname goes to phoren and has a rant. We have lots of cranks having such rants.(crants?)

Iam not sure how this crant can initaie a "move fraught with consequences" that the whole of Pakiland has not managed in 5 deacdes?

The business of appointing a "rapporteur" IMO can be wiped away in one swipe. The countryu is open as are its media and its politics. That is why a crank politician with a different view can go and have such a rant.

More interseting is exactly what this chap is upto. Hi sname is totally unknown as far as I can tell and he is a politician, Inviting attention like this can be dangerous for a politician unless theer is a serious ulterior motive. And the motive may be serious for him. Maybe he needs to get and stay abroad and is looking for a way to be persecuted and then ask for asylum. Maybe he is building up brownie points with soem segment of the electorate. Or maybe he is merely justufying a free trip abroad - when he comes back with goodies and talks about how much work he has done. That is what I would expect from a politican anyway.

I may be wrong - but I would perhaps laugh this "threat" off.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 13 May 2003 15:17

Originally posted by Atish:
Are you sure that Rushdies' latest book is good stuff.
Atish the book "Shame" makes a good read because it appears to indicate top echelon RAPE lifestyle and mindset in Pakistan. "Satanic Verses" is absolute rubbish. It would have been easier and taken less effort to just take out a full page ad against Islam in a paper rather than writing a whole boring book only to get a Fatwa.

Sorry to digress.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 13 May 2003 15:23

Shiv - I'm just beginning to chase down this story to see what I can find, but Hindu claims that he's connected to SIMI ...

Govt. watchful, but won't arrest all ex-SIMI men

However, the Government has so far not moved against the Tamil Nadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhagam, whose president, Prof. M.H. Jawahirullah, and treasurer, Mr. Bakker, are ex-SIMI office- bearers . Central intelligence agencies referred to the SIMI connections of the TMMK.

...

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Atish » 13 May 2003 20:32

sorry for the digressions.

Shiv, Thanks for the clarification. Rubbish is right for Satanic verses. Waste of time to proclaim a fatwa on it. Practically impossible to read thru that damn book.

And Ray, I did not realize there were explicit rules. Yup you deserved what u got all right :lol: .

Cheers.
Atish

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby svinayak » 13 May 2003 20:53

Even today some of the older employees puff up their chests, snap to attention and answer with a smart "Yes massa" when addressed by Gora aadmi or gori mem saab guests.
This is what the royals miss even today from the empire. They had found a perfect subject which they had to gove it away.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby R Vaidya » 13 May 2003 20:56

Shiv
____________
His name is totally unknown as far as I can tell and he is a politician, Inviting attention like this can be dangerous for a politician unless theer is a serious ulterior motive.
_____________

TMMK is a very well known political party in Tamil Nadu and it is off-shoot of original Muslim league. It is courted by both ADMK and DMK for political purposes.
It is currently in the front with DMK and rabid in its outlook and pro-Jehadi. It has very large young followers.Its leaders are unabashed about SIMI and NDF. I am surprised that the leader of these movements float in and out of the ****ry and even in UN meetings.
I would not just brush aside this demand for monitoring as some rantings by an unknown politician. Something more than meets the eye. Link it up with demand in the South Africa--Durban- racism meeting that Dalits are a race and there is a need to " monitor" their plight by UN agencies. Also link it up with the Chinoy { JNU] presentation before US commission on religious freedom about " minorities under threat and need to monitor it and indirectlly encouraging sanctions.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Rye » 13 May 2003 21:00

Originally posted by rvaidya:
Something more than meets the eye. Link it up with demand in the South Africa--Durban- racism meeting that Dalits are a race and there is a need to " monitor" their plight by UN agencies. Also link it up with the Chinoy { JNU] presentation before US commission on religious freedom about " minorities under threat and need to monitor it and indirectlly encouraging sanctions.
This ties in with the dubious "dalit" conference that Digvijay Singh was supposed to attend in Canada. He was denied permission to participate in that conference because of the "dubious nature" of the people conducting the conference. Given that www.dalitstan.org is actually a jihadi site (operated by some pakistani terrorist group: Hizbul Mujahideen or Lashkar-e-toiba, not sure which one), this move could very well have roots in some paki jihadi subplot.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 14 May 2003 00:35

Question: Suppose the Congress(G) (Genoa) wins the next elections. Won't all these ranters look really stupid? Because I assume that the Togadias and Modis will continue on their merry way, hawking Trishools or saffron shawls or whatever.

Will the Central government jail anyone who picks up a "Trishul"? Millions of worshippers in Tamil Nadu during various festivals will have to be jailed.

It becoming clear to me that the more these people scream about persecution in India, the more their bratty hollowness becomes evident. Which is a pity, because I too would like conditions to become fair and calm again to focus some attention on modernizing the "trishul" types.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby R Vaidya » 14 May 2003 05:51

English Langauge Press may hate India but a French man loves it and due to that he has become persona-non-grata in his own Embassy-- He needs our cheers!!
Read on
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=OPED&file_name=opd1%2Etxt&counter_img=1

Nachiketa and India

Francois Gautier

Last Saturday, few of us were conferred the Nachiketa prize of journalism by the Prime Minister Vajpayee along with Deputy Prime Minister Advani. Because of time pressure, there was no space for individual speeches by the awardees. However, this is what I would have liked to say.
The story of Nachiketa is wonderful. Briefly, it runs thus: Nachiketa, on seeing his father, a Vedic Rishi, give daan (offerings) to the Gods asks: "What about me father? Who will you give me to?" The father answers, more in joke, "I will donate you to Yama (the God of Death)." But Nachiketa takes it seriously and goes to Yama, who is out roaming. When Yama returned after three days, he saw the youngster at his door and asked what he wanted. "I have been offered to you by my father." "Impossible," answers Yama, "your time has not come." Then, to placate him, he offers one boon to him. This is what Nachiketa asks Yama: "Some say that when one dies, one is; and others that one is not. What is the truth?" Yama, the mighty God of Death, answers, "Ask me for anything: Riches, happiness, a hundred years, but not this question." But Nachiketa refuses to relent. Yama's answer constitutes India's eternal truth, one which it alone holds today, and which has been repeated in many of India's sacred texts, including the Gita: "Only the body dies, O Nachiketa, the soul is immortal and is reborn life after life, till ones reaches perfection."

Thus Nachiketa stands for forthrightness, courage, and dedication to truth, which should be the hallmark of any journalist worth his salt. I would like to believe that my quest in India has been - even in a small degree - like Nachiketa's: "What is the real India, behind the cliches? What does India stand for? What can I do to help this great country? I discovered India by living it from within. I was privileged to spend my first seven years at the Sri Aurobindo Ashram, Pondicherry, where I met many times the Mother and read Sri Aurobindo's works. Sri Aurobindo, India's great revolutionary, philosopher, poet and yogi, has been the visible and invisible guidance behind my work. Today, I am also indebted to Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, founder of the Art of Living, because he embodies the ancient rishi's dedication to his country: His work is not only spirituality, but also to bring God into all realms of life, including politics, because in ancient India the rishis were also advisers to kings.
I nevertheless started my journalistic career with the usual cliches about India, which most foreign correspondents mouth: That only a "secular" government like that of the Congress can govern such a diverse country as India; that India's minorities are "persecuted"; that Hindus could "also" be fundamentalists... But I was again lucky: I began doing photo features in the South. There I discovered that India's genius, strength and soul lay in rural India; and not in its cities like Delhi where the intelligentsia is often totally cut-off from its roots. The truth I encountered in my travels and interaction with Indians was totally opposite of what I thought: The Congress had divided India along caste and religious lines to survive in power; India's minorities had taken advantage of a secular Government by getting more privileges than the majority community; Hindus are probably the most tolerant people in the world, not only accepting that God manifests Himself as Krishna, but also as Christ, Buddha, or even Mohammed; Hindus have ironically been the target of one of the most horrible genocides ever perpetrated upon mankind in the name of religion. I also saw that even today they are falling prey to jihadis: Witness the ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pandits, far more horrible than the one of the Bosnians; I saw too that Hindus have given shelter to all persecuted minorities in the world: Syrian Christians, Armenians, Parsis, Jews, in history, and the Tibetans today.

So at some point I realised that a marvellous majority like the Hindus, who have such a long tradition of tolerance, gentleness, spirituality and hospitality, needed a Government which reflected these qualities; not the successive governments which have come in since Independence, and have divided India along caste and religious lines, instituted corruption, statism and bureaucracy. And when Dr Murli Manohar Joshi went to Srinagar on August 15, 1990, to raise the Indian flag, I found this pretty courageous and I said so in my articles, although he was ridiculed by the entire Indian Press, particularly by Newstrack, the only news channel in those days. When Mr Advani began his Rath yatra, I thought it was a good idea, because it would rally the Hindus who tend to be politically amorphous, and I said it. At that time nobody - including me - believed that the BJP would ever come to power.

They have now. Nevertheless, it is lonely at the top. Of course, nobody from the French embassy was present at the award ceremony. Had it not been for Christopher Jaffrelot, the man who is most responsible for the bad image of India in France (he is THE world specialist on "Hindu fundamentalism", something which does not even exist), and partly accountable too for the fact that France is only the 11th largest investor in India, after all the overtures that have been made towards France by the BJP Government in the last five years, the entire embassy would have been present. But I am considered an outcaste by the French embassy and my advice is never sought, even though I have lived here for 34 years.
This raises an important question: Why is it that amongst the 300-odd Western correspondents sitting in New Delhi, there is nobody (that I know) who comes to the same logical conclusion that Hinduism is what makes this country great and that an Indian Christian or an Indian Muslim is different because of the softening influence of Hinduism? After all, many of these correspondents arrive here meaning well, with an aspiration to understand this complex country. Why is it that not only most of them leave in five years, not knowing India better, but that very often they end up hating it (isn't it, Miss Chipeaux?)? There is Mark Tully, of course, who genuinely likes India, but even he, maybe because he is British, is very muted and discreet when it comes to defending India. The only answer I can find is that it is only when the Indian English language press will become a little less negative, a little more proud of its roots, that the Western correspondents will be positively influenced. Because the first input they get when they open an Indian English language newspaper or switch on television news is negative: Everything is hopeless about this country, when India is a much better bet for the Western world than totalitarian China, or Islamic Pakistan.

Finally, I would like to say that I have donated the Nachiketa prize money to FACT (Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism), which is organising an exhibition on Hindu genocide through the ages, particularly the Kashmiri Pandits, with the backing of All-India Anti-Terrorism Front of Mr Maninderjit Singh Bitta - a courageous man who survived a most horrifying terrorism attack upon himself, to combat vigorously this international scourge.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 14 May 2003 06:02

I can see why Francois Gautier is an award-winning journalist and a decent human being at the same time - a combination which seems increasinlgy improbable when one looks at the ddm.

That article should be framed.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 14 May 2003 06:23

Originally posted by narayanan:

It becoming clear to me that the more these people scream about persecution in India, the more their bratty hollowness becomes evident. Which is a pity, because I too would like conditions to become fair and calm again to focus some attention on modernizing the "trishul" types.
N3 - permit me to sink into another of Naipaul's astute observations - this time regarding the Indian press.

The Indian press is not an active, dynamic, inquiring body that goes beyond bland reporting into causes and effects. For example you find one day in the Dorkan Herald, the news item "Newlywed suffers burns" - and the news suggests that this burning was based on non-payment of dowry. That it. The news item appears one day, and then its gone, forgotten. It will be replaced the next day by "Beggar done to death" and the thrid day by the News "City socialite meets fans" There is no depth. No review. Nobody ever goes back to that familiy where the bride was burned. Were they found guilty? What happened to the girl? How many reports of "bride burning" have ben there in the last 6 months. What is actually happening? No analysis. No increase in understanding. Only a silly parody of the western "press". This lack of maturity and inquiry has moved onto TV.

NDTV News. Barkha Dutt and Wotsiname present a weepy report about some starving village. It lasts 30 minutes, Gets some ad revenue. Seen and forgotten. Back to the 10 year continuing saga of "saas bhi kabhi bahu thi"

What happened to that starving vilage one year on? Are they still starving? What was done? Who did it? No answers to these questions. Between soaps we see whiny reports. Shed a tear and then say "balls". That is as deep as the Indian press is capable of going.

What is retained is the sour taste of that which is bad, with no effort to find out what was being done. A news item is a photograph, but a follow-up is a movie and the Indian press. by and large has never risen to that level.

What has this got to do with Trishuls etc? Well - we find the same reports of Togadia and his Trishuls. We never see anyone talking about the fact that the bugger was thrown in the jug for that. We find reports of whiners who whine about injsutice. Many of us are pained because we see that the whines are not necessarily just. But the media report those whines and rarely follow them up with support or rebuttals or analyses. A whiner who is given airtime automatically becomes right unles you can give airtime to a rebuttal.

This where WE come in. I think Arindam was dead right in picking up this whiny report. I was dead wrong in dismissing it.

If nobody else is going to come up with rebuttals WE need to do that. At least on here. It doesn't matter if we dont have "reach" (any reach we have is a bonus), but at least we can practise getting the lines right and the facts straight in the hope that our rebuttals to whines and unfair complaints can be aired sometime.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Gerard » 14 May 2003 06:32

The Hindustan Times has an online poll. It asks whether our favorite novelist Arundhati Roy should have been included on the list of the 50 best female writers.

It is 54 percent against right now...

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 14 May 2003 08:01

GERARD! URL!!!!!!

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Prof Raghu » 14 May 2003 08:06

N.,
Just go to the main page of HT --
http://www.hindustantimes.com
scroll down towards the bottom of the page, and you can do the honors.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Ashutosh » 14 May 2003 08:06

N guru it's on the first page, under the "Voice your Opinion" :eek: column ...

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Umrao » 14 May 2003 08:12

done

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby manju » 14 May 2003 08:28

it is 67% now.

about dresses worn by desi men and women. I concur with some of the explanations laid out by shiv.

I always felf comfortable in India dresses but never felt bold/comfortable enough until i matured and was able to think critically. As I became more confident about myself and got to know our culture and values the more comfortable I have become with desi dress.

For eg: I decided not to wear the "suit" for my wedding. I did buy one, but after the wedding and that too because I would need one here at work in phirangi desh.

Can you imagine some one wearing suit in the height of Indian summer when it atleat 40*C....I think it is ridiculous... I used this argument with people who would argue that western dress is comfortable... I think this bullcrap..

How is it comfortable to wear a three peice suit in the humid weather of Mumbai or Chennai? I think it is common sense that nothing would beat the LUNGI when it comes to comfort in the Indian summer.....

In fact I fing tucking the shrit in, wearing a belt, tying the noose aroung the neck very very stressful and I hated them when it was mandatory for me when I was in residency training....

It feels so good to be rid of all those things---like am flying to work....

Now I wear this lungi whenever I get a chance... like when I go in phirangi land- for after supper stroll, to religious functions ...

Last time I WAS HOME IN BHARAT I wore lungi when i went into the bazaar in my town...there were some eye brows raised...friends and others..

Well, as they say once your are winner...what ever you do looks good and cool to others... I have made max use of what ever success I have had in my professional life ( which is appreciated by my freind, relatives and conacts) into this enterprise.. Just think of it-if I am successful in my profession and am a decent person why would any body object if I WEAR the desi dress..

Off course, there will be those "mental slaves" who will sneer at them...but it should be easy to get back at them with oneliners I have picked up here on BRM.

My goal is to wear a lugni (or the more formal panchei or dhoti) to work in the clinic/hospital in India. I am pretty confident I will do this...I have taken this up as challenge for myself.............

shiv
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 14 May 2003 08:29

Originally posted by Sriman:
N.,
Just go to the main page of HT --
http://www.hindustantimes.com
scroll down towards the bottom of the page, and you can do the honors.
Originally posted by John Umrao:
done
ditto

Fellow Indians Arise and awake.

This is your duty. Your jihad.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Ashwin B » 14 May 2003 08:36

77.8% of votes screaming a resounding "NO"!

shiv
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 14 May 2003 08:39

Originally posted by manju:
[QB]
For eg: I decided not to wear the "suit" for my wedding.
In fact I fing tucking the shrit in, wearing a belt,
Good thinking Manju. It takes guts to be original in a society of sheeple.

I have often wondered about the purpose of the ritual "reception" in its current format in Indian weddings.

The whole ceremony (in Hindu weddings) is based on ancient Vedic ritual and on other religious belief in non-hindu weddings. The overwhelming feeling is one of family, tradition and the dress code fits right in with that.

Then, suddenly - there is this "reception" where the groom metamorphoses into a "suited booted jentalmaan" and the bride merely retains traditional Indian finery.

I have wondered if the "reception" was modified to allow the gora aadmi boss to meet his employee in recognisable costume and take one look at his wife who would thereafter be hidden away. In other words - the Indian "reception" is a "Westernized presentation" of an Indian ceremony that we were too ashamed to present undisguised to our superiors and masters - both white and worse, the macaulayized disdainful brown ones.

Just my thoughts.

PS: A shirt and tie is a lovely and smart costume for a cold nation in which the sun is seen once a year over Stonehenge. The tie seals in the warmth inside the shirt. For India? Hmmm. . .

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby BSR Murthy » 14 May 2003 09:05

Originally posted by narayanan:
I can see why Francois Gautier is an award-winning journalist and a decent human being at the same time - a combination which seems increasinlgy improbable when one looks at the ddm.

That article should be framed.
I ditto that!

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 14 May 2003 09:21

Folks, write some pithy comments (copyright O'Reilly, c/o FOX, the most powerful name in Cable News, Amen) by clicking on the 'Have Your Say' (or something) button next to that Rolls Royce of a Poll.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 14 May 2003 22:28

Last time I WAS HOME IN BHARAT I wore lungi when i went into the bazaar in my town...there were some eye brows raised...friends and others..
Manju: when I was a teenager in Kerala that (+ flip-flops ) was my standard costume .. and these days when I go to Kerala (well... after I get there) that is my costume. Yes, there are a lot of silly people there who wear tight pants and black shoes and white socks in central Kerala's 100% humidity and red dust..

Only exception was when I got REAL mad in 1987 or so ... and wore full western battledress (black blazer and tie etc.) to deal with the "Cochin Airport Customs" bozos. Had its effect, and left quite a few bruised Babu Egos behind, but I nearly died of the heat.

Right, there are lots of disapproving people. I try to respect their sense of propriety by wearing a nice white dhoti when visiting homes or formal occasions. Never had much respect myself for the hippies who walked around our towns in their underwear - or those asses who emulate them now to show that they are "cool" "bheshternized Amreeki-returned onlee".

But I suspect that the people in the neighborhood have decided that "Atlanta" must be only halfway across the Atlantic, not all the way to Detroit or some such REAL Amreeki city where there is heavy snowfall in 120-degree desert heat.

Supreme HQ get a much bigger kick out of appearing in town with exactly the "fashion" and style she had when she was a Malayalee teenager in the days when we looked to Kerala for sensible fashion.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby chola » 14 May 2003 22:36

I am tempted repeatedly to wear a lungi and sandals during the summer in New York City. The place is like a concrete oven.

chola
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby chola » 14 May 2003 22:48

I see that African costumes are quite popular among African-Americans and it seems to enhance their pride. I wonder if wearing traditional dress wouldn't do the same for desis.

Of course, in America, the greatest resistance to me going around in a dhoti (without the shirt) would probably be relatives.

The sari has caught on here and our girls and women wear them in public as a mark of their culture. There is nothing for the men though. It seems we are somehow restricted to westen dress.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Bhrigu » 14 May 2003 22:51

When I was in Grad school in Iowa City where it gets real hot in the summers, we had a tamilian friend who went out in lungi in broad day light. We had lotsa fun with 'gora log' ka expressions.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Amber G. » 14 May 2003 23:17

Last time I WAS HOME IN BHARAT I wore lungi when i went into the bazaar in my town...there were some eye brows raised...friends and others..
I think in 30’s or 40’s S. Chandresekahar ( Nobel Prize winning Physicist) was returning home (Tamil Nadu) from Bengal. This was after a successful seminar in Physics where many physics- big shots thought very highly of his lectures, so he was very happy. But the happiness did not last long when a particularly rude British couple entered his Train compartment. To put it mildly, the couple was not even aware that they were traveling with a really brilliant young scientist. The woman particularly did not like the fact that she has to share that First-class compartment with a native, but finally, remarking something like, “at least he is wearing proper clothes” , she was calmed down by her companion.
(S. C. was wearing suit and tie..)

So naturally Chandra got up, went to the bathroom, changed into lungi etc… The woman actually pulled the chain and made the train stop and raised a big racket in front of the train officials etc..(The official(s) could not do a thing as Chandra politely showed no interest in moving, when requested ….The lady was hysterical and made a real fool of herself and had to give in by moving (to another compartment .. in 2nd class…)

(No one would suspect that such a polite and proper “Dr. Chandra” could be mischievous too..)

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Umrao » 14 May 2003 23:30

we had a tamilian friend who went out in lungi in broad day light.
Imagine that lungi in flower color prints , you have victoria's secret out on the street...
:rotfl:

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Bhrigu » 14 May 2003 23:37

Originally posted by John Umrao:
we had a tamilian friend who went out in lungi in broad day light.
Imagine that lungi in flower color prints , you have victoria's secret out on the street...
:rotfl:
JU kaka,

that WAS in the 'checks' format (famous in apun ka hyd) made eternal by all those mallik cartoons of thieves wearing them. Come to think of it, some of the 60s movies actually had thieves in such attires - checks lungi, thick color banian, black 'goggles' covering eyes and a thick moustache. FUN. :rotfl:

George J

Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby George J » 15 May 2003 00:09

Originally posted by Harish:
When I was in Grad school in Iowa City where it gets real hot in the summers, we had a tamilian friend who went out in lungi in broad day light. We had lotsa fun with 'gora log' ka expressions.
Wow you folks in IA are really something. In the not too distant past:
1) My roomie would play cricket in a mundu (not a lungi) in GA.
2) He would even go out shopping to Kroger in one too.
3) I have TA'ed in Chappals.
4) Attended Grad classes (Seminar) in Khadi Kurta/Jeans and Chappals.

Even now at the height of chicago summer I have conducted meetings wearing Khakis and chappals prompting one of my caucasian female co-workers to comment on my hairy toes. :D

There is nothing indecent/inappropriate/risque about wearing Indian clothing and footware in an occidental society. Its all a matter of perception.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JE Menon » 15 May 2003 01:15

Yeah, yeah boast about your courage in good ol' US of A where there are hundreds of thousands of desis...for back up...

Here I am alone on a small European island state where maybe if I stretch it there are a 1,000 or so Indians... OK I wear the lungi only at home, but I don't give a flying fick who's visiting... especially in summer when it can go into the low 40s centigrade.

Plenty of comments, from all and sundry - beginning with my inlaws who had never seen a man wearing a skirt before, that too a multi-coloured (boys, my favourite has a psychedelic-type print, looks like one of those windows default screensavers) thing with absolutely no sense of colour combination; who makes this stuff :lol: ? That was first about 10 years ago. Now the bloody thing is in fashion, as the south-east asian "Sarong". Plenty of young chaps wearing it on the beaches...

But I bet they'll still be shocked if I wear it Kerala style, crisp ironed shirt unbuttoned to the waist literally, lungi double-folded and hitched up to make it almost a "mini", and a bit of swagger to go with the "Hawaii" chappals. Tag on a beedi and you're in business!

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby GGanesh » 15 May 2003 01:33

Its one thing for a "hawa ka jhonka" lifting Marilyn Monroe's skirt to reveal pink underwear.

But a Tamilian wearing a lungi and the same "hawa ka jhonka", ......

Well, some things are best left unsaid.

George J

Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby George J » 15 May 2003 01:38

Originally posted by GGanesh:
Its one thing for a "hawa ka jhonka" lifting Marilyn Monroe's skirt to reveal pink underwear.

But a Tamilian wearing a lungi and the same "hawa ka jhonka", ......

Well, some things are best left unsaid.
Have you not seen Mohanlal and Mammooty fight in their lungis and you are worried about a little wind? :D I am telling you lungi-fighting should be elevated to a martial art....lets see Jackie Chan fight in one.


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