Why has it become so cool to hate India

Abhijit
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Abhijit » 15 May 2003 01:45

There was a very nice scene in 'Agnipath' where Mithun Chakravarty plays 'Krishnan Ayyar, Yem Ye' and defends his lungi dress and even does a number in it. At least Mumbai has come a long way in accepting white 'veshtis' - we Mumbaikars, though, prefer the checks on our lungis while the Punjoos seem to prefer the florals.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby manju » 15 May 2003 01:52

Looks like the "Lungi" has caughT many peoples intrest.....

By best freind's maama who is QUITE A reputed gymnastics coach in India had this to say about lungi and I completly agree with it..."it can be used as a Lungi :) , as towel (provided you have the desi kaacha on so you dont emabarass those around you with the bestern underwear), can use it as a pillow ( I have done this many times in my village and especially when travelling), use at as a blanket......and what not...

Recalling my school (11 and 12 class)days, our chemistry lecturer's unifrom was dhoti..he was one of those old professorw with excellent knowledge of the subject and quite strict but friendly.

There are many ramifications of this sartorial (desi dresses)affair...

I talk about this endlessly with my buddies, you know the ones who will listen to any kind of wierd ideas one has. I have seriously though about this and infact have been thinking of writing this up..

I had two of my friends (husband and wife) come for medical training in USA . The lady (like most desi women in her place) for some reason felt that she had to wear western dress. I was thinking about it...Would the same thing happen if a westener were to come to INDIA...No, I dont think so. Why this status quo were the default choice is "western"..And anyway nobody is forcing us to have this mindset but still we (our society) have this attitude: default dress code: "western". We had gora pair from Canada who came to volunteer with us-a vountary orgazination in Karnataka. The ladys "langa" (skirt) was just below the knee and also translucent and we had to tell the pair to be modest. I bet the boys in the residentail school would have had kick seeing through............ BUT it was all very embarassing for my colleagues who were running this school.

Also, I use Gandhiji's example where with one sweep- changing to KHADI dress- he changed the equation witht he british.

I feel a sartorial revolution will have far reaching consequences on the Indian pscyh and the ECONONMY $$$ (Like shutting of textile mills in Machester when Gandhi called for KHADI REVOLUTION..)

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Bhrigu » 15 May 2003 02:10

Originally posted by GGanesh:
Its one thing for a "hawa ka jhonka" lifting Marilyn Monroe's skirt to reveal pink underwear.

But a Tamilian wearing a lungi and the same "hawa ka jhonka", ......

Well, some things are best left unsaid.
ganesh,

lungis are aerodynamically constructed and worn NOT to behave like a skirt. Any amount of hawaa will never 'lift' the lungi to give anyone visual pleasure but will only do a tantalising revelation of the strong legs inside. OMG!! ;)

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 15 May 2003 06:13

No.

I WILL NOT merely post the link and ask you all to form your opinion. I will post my opinion and feed you with it just like the people that the news item talks about.

First - I have put the Pope and Jack the Ripper on the "sexual assault watch list" I agree that the Pope cannot be wholly guilty but nevertheless he has been seen wearing clothes of the same color as Jack the Ripper and making eye contact with a woman, just like Jack the Ripper.

Next I am putting several US cities on the "Lack of freedom of transportation" watch list, because people in some suburbs of those cities do not have the freedom to NOT own a car. They cannot decide to take a bus or walk to the nearest shopping mall. I agree that this lack of freedom has not spread to all US cities abut the US is slow to recognise and set right these inconsistencies.

The news?

India shares a place with Saudi pucking Arabia in a "religious freeeom watch list" made up by some egregious <a href="http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_253387,00050001.htm">materphiles</a>

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 15 May 2003 07:08

Excuse me for this rant folks - but I need to express myself and describe a thought I have had.

There is a particularly irritating psychological trick that you may have had played on you, and perhaps you are guilty of playing it yourself. People do it all the time - but it is educative to find influential groups and nations playing that trick. India and Indians with their passive "satyameva jayate" - all is open and visible lifestyles are particular suckers for this game.

The "game" or trick is to get a person on the defensive with an unprovoked accusation. The agenda and tone is set by the accuser and the passive personality goes on the defensive right from the start.

Let me explain. For clarity I will call it the "You farted" game

A group of people are sitting together - say 6 or 7 friends in a hostel room. Suddenly the foul smell of a fart wafts up.

An accuser personality (call him 'A') picks out a passive personality ('P') and says "Hey P, you farted"

P protests "No I did not"

A: "Yes you did"

P: "Shut up and stop accusing me"

A:"He Ha. It's OK. No need to cover your guilt by getting angry. I know you farted. We don't mind - just warn us next time.

What happens in this exchange is that the Accuser 'A' has the initiative all the time. He sets the pace, and he sets the Agenda. He may actually have farted himself, but he gets away giving the impression that "P" is guilty.

Note that this is a complex human exchange and not something that can be described in a few simple words.

Now see how this is applied by groups and nations. The trick is used by Amnesty, Greenpeace, Pakistan against India and a whole load of "Western" organizations use this against many others - but I am only interested in the way it is used against India.

The usual string of "accusations" we face are:

1)Pollution
2)Disease
3)Noise
4)Corruption
5)Religious freedom
6)Population
7)Wasting money on needless animosity vs Pakistan
8)Widesprad bride burning
9)Hindu fundamenatlists are raking up trouble for moderate Pakistan

Until science proved otherwise even diet was not exempt from this game. We were all taught that meat is "first class protein" and vegetable protein is "second class protein". We were also taught (in physiology) that "normal feces sinks in the pan" and "abnormal feces floats" until science (sense) showed that a vegetarian diet can often produce floating feces. Note how the game extends to "My sh1t is better".Other, older accusations were "laziness" . I have a LOT to say about that one - but will desist for now. The "You farted" game can take on any difference - even cultural/economic ones as the start off a game.

The sheer volume of accusations and insinuations, initiated by a wide variety of private organizations who have the leisure to sit and do these things itself is a serious example of psywar.

I do not want to wish away what is often true in the accusations - like corruption, but I wish to make the point that multiple pinpricks from alll quarters amounts to psywar and we need to draw the line somewhere and say what is psywar and unfair vs what is a "fair accusation"

We need to recognise instances of the "You farted" game being played. In general, less influential and less wealthy nations have fewer private groups who can play this game on behalf of their nations. Often these games are not "Govenment sponsored" - but they have a wink and a nod from their governments.

We can play this game too. And I know that some Indians do that - given the way some nations are pricked by our "moral high ground" :D

But it IS often a game and we need to play the game. We on here have all the qualifications. We have the leisure and we are non governmental.

"You farted"

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Ashutosh » 15 May 2003 11:31

Just came across this Yahoo! Group: Voice of India

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 15 May 2003 12:25

The 'you farted' game is a much simpler version of the'why did you fart ' or 'why do you beat your wife' or 'why dont you talk to your very reasonable nuclear rival Pakistan' or 'why do you have a Hindu nationalist party in power' game . Each of these questions is loaded , as they say in the courtroom , with facts or inferences not yet established by evidence to be true and designed to shift the conversation from a dubious premise to a foregone conclusion.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 15 May 2003 12:47

So well put by Kaushal that I shall quote in full:

Originally posted by Kaushal:
The 'you farted' game is a much simpler version of the'why did you fart ' or 'why do you beat your wife' or 'why dont you talk to your very reasonable nuclear rival Pakistan' or 'why do you have a Hindu nationalist party in power' game . <u>Each of these questions is loaded with, as they say in the courtroom , facts or inferences not yet established by evidence to be true and designed to shift the conversation from a dubious premise to a foregone conclusion.</u>
Super sentence construct - summarizing in a nutshell an abstract verbal trick that brings the victim up against a brick wall, with no argument or defence to offer.

Typically when it is done to India and Indians we immediately have a group of Indians who read the accusation, AGREE and ACCEPT that it must be correct on the basis of the fact that the accusation has been made by some nominal authority or has appeared in a medium of some repute. Depending on the personality of the Indian who believes it we then have someone who is angry and critical or someone who is anxious and whiny - and both these emotions are caused needlessly by "inferences not yet established by evidence to be true " as you have aptly put it.

The reason I coined the term "You farted" is to sow the "thought seed" or "idea virus" so that we may later be able to recognise and pin down the abstract sequence by that two word description. I agree that "Have you stopped beating your wife" or "Why did you fart" are equally good or perhaps better descriptions of actions that are used ALL THE TIME to smear India, among other nations.

Waking up to the reality of this idea is important.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Sai » 15 May 2003 15:59

Originally posted by shiv:
No.


India shares a place with Saudi pucking Arabia in a "religious freeeom watch list" made up by some egregious <a href="http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_253387,00050001.htm">materphiles</a>
Here's the dope on USCIRF:

The impetus to make the US government a crusader for religious liberty came from the Christian right, and the USCIRF -- despite its current multi-faith composition -- still bears the imprint of its evangelical and partisan origins. During its first year, in addition to Sudan and China, the commission focused on Russia, where the government limits the activities of Mormon and other missionaries. In the waning years of the Clinton administration, the USCIRF skirmished repeatedly with the State Department over the latter's refusal to expand the list of "countries of particular concern" or enforce tougher sanctions against the countries so designated. Heavily backed by Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and other deeply conservative Congressional Republicans, the USCIRF embarked on a public relations offensive last summer to accentuate its disagreements with the administration. Writing in the right-wing Washington Times on January 1, Abrams blasted the administration for not tightening "IRFA sanctions" on Sudan, China and Iran, and suggested that new IRFA measures target France. Commission member Nina Shea (who was not a member of the Cairo delegation) also works as director of the conservative Center for Religious Freedom, which focuses exclusively on Christian religious freedom. (The Center's website boasts that Newsweek credited Shea with making "Christian persecution Washington's hottest cause.") As George W. Bush is indebted to the religious right, the USCIRF hopes that phrasing concern for human rights as concern for religious freedom will find a more receptive audience than it did under Clinton.

Source:
<A href=http://www.merip.org/mero/mero032901.html> Frosty Reception for US Religious Freedom Commission in Egypt </A>

Indian sepoy Kamal Mitra Chenoy was a "witness" before the Commission's Gujarat "hearings" -- on the strength of which "witness", one presumes, the Commission decided that sanctions must be imposed on India.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Vaibhav » 15 May 2003 17:05

What to make UnCool Hating India?

Voilate Human Rights openly!!
Kill as many Minorities as possible!
Throw all anti Indian Government and Oposition in Jails for Eternity!
Make India a Dictatorial Rule!!!
:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Umrao » 15 May 2003 17:20

'why dont you talk to your very reasonable nuclear rival Pakistan'
Then why is Atalji playing the 'F' game?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 15 May 2003 19:06

Originally posted by John Umrao:
[b] 'why dont you talk to your very reasonable nuclear rival Pakistan'
Then why is Atalji playing the 'F' game?[/b]
In fact Jumrao you are yourself playing the "you farted" game here. You do it very often as a matter of habit, but you do it because you are a desh bhakt and you want to wake everyone up I suppose.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Umrao » 15 May 2003 19:14

In fact Jumrao you are yourself playing the "you farted" game here. You do it very often as a matter of habit, but you do it because you are a desh bhakt and you want to wake everyone up I suppose.
Shivji >> glad that you too joined the game. :)
If the 'desh bhakt' is that simple, Pakis would have vacated not only POK but entire 'Akhand Bharat'. Let me know in advance we will all do it together.
Very peaceful resolution indeed. :D

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby debjani » 15 May 2003 20:09

Breaking wind is not polite. But then it can't permeate through the web. :D

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby R Vaidya » 15 May 2003 21:09

SHIV
_____________

The reason I coined the term "You farted" is to sow the "thought seed" or "idea virus" so that we may later be able to recognise and pin down the abstract sequence by that two word description. I agree that "Have you stopped beating your wife" or "Why did you fart" are equally good or perhaps better descriptions of actions that are used ALL THE TIME to smear India, among other nations.

Waking up to the reality of this idea is important.
__________
Well said Shiv . It requires substantial coordinated action by several groupswho have the feeling for the concept of India.Over a very long period of time the press,think tanks,funding agencies,NGO's,University Departments,lobby groups etc-- in the West- have consistently adopted a posture of " you broke the wind" allegation-- and we took it as truth and always gave excuses.
It would take a lot of efforts by pvt groups to create a sense of self respect and a sense of injured innocence to " spring an attack" before anyone starts.Currently it is mostly apologetic rear gaurd action or mumbling some apology even when you have not " done" that.
Incidentally about breaking winds I am reminded of a story---during my school days.
It was a small group of pundits and prince discussing some issues. The prince broke wind and one pundit hit his son on his head for doing the same.
After the meeting the Prince presented gold coins to the pundit for his presence of mind.
The next day another greedy pundit [who was witnessing this] --took his son after feeding him with lots of ground nuts etc to the meeting and the boy broke wind several times and his father hit him on his head several times. But instead of appreciation the prince asked the pundit along with his son to leave the room.
Hence there are situations of being " pro active" like the first one in which we excell. In other words to cover up for the white man we rather jump and claim that it is we-- who did it!!
Long way---Million miles to go---

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby R Vaidya » 15 May 2003 21:34

Shiv
____________
Next I am putting several US cities on the "Lack of freedom of transportation" watch list, because people in some suburbs of those cities do not have the freedom to NOT own a car. They cannot decide to take a bus or walk to the nearest shopping mall. I agree that this lack of freedom has not spread to all US cities abut the US is slow to recognise and set right these inconsistencies.
____________

I think it is required to start in this forum systematically identify the major " faults"--huge ones in the western system and go on spreading the theme and let many Indians start internalising it.
I am a short term visitor to USA and don't won / hire a car. It is extremely unfriendly to people like me. It inflicts untold misery / violence against people like me by refusing to provide public transportation in many inner cities and outlying areas.It compels people to have one-way of living.Added to that credit cards are not given to non-citizens[ non-green cards] under recent INS dicta and it further inflicts violence since hiring vechicle / etc cannot be done without credit card.And large cash trancations are frowned upon.It is a very " violent" society in that sense on elderly and visitors and new immigrants and students and poor.
It also inflicts violence on very elderly ,since they cannot drive nor has any public transportation. But Indian press will not talk about these --
Not even about high school girls urinating on other junior girls and throwing human excretia on them in the name of "hazing" as part of graduation ceremony in a very posh school in Illinos. If it has happened in a god foresaken village in India then due to Reuters and AFP it would have become major news from India where it will be projected that all indian girls behave like that.
Indian press does not talkabout the fact that- when more than 40% of admissions in IVY league schools in USA are based on " legacy" that is sons and daughters of Alumnai who give huge " donations"--even when the kids do not have requisite scores-- --that is never discussed in the Indian press.
The Commision on religious freedom does not have Hindu or Buddhist members and it is not highlighted by the press.
I think it would be advantageous to run separate threads on each of the " you did first" thread and slowly spread the message that you guys are at fault and make many an Indian internalise it.The threads can be on many themes and covering many soicities / countries-- the theme is always " you did it" and "you are at fault"
Over a long period may be--- we will be successful in making others defensive.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby manju » 16 May 2003 00:39

The fart game- another example ..

Yesterday a pharmacy representatvie had some food brought to our clinic. We were chatting and then she asked about diet in India and then...she asked "why is that people in India who do eat meat don not eat it daily".... I told her "If you go to India and people will ask you Why you people have to eat meat everyday and what would you say to them", she said "Well, you know that is ....mumbled some inchoherent words.. and she got the message...

Similarly the other day when I was with a patient he says: You are not married right?
I say: no, that is not right, Why do you say that
he says: becas you dont have a wedding ring
I say: Why should I wear a ring if I am married.
He say: BECAs it is normal
I asked: What is normal?
He says: to wear a ring if you are married
I asked: who said so?
He says: it is normal in america (i guess he meant chrisitan)
I said: I am not from America but from India
He says: so, you dont guys wear wedding rings haa? very intresting.
I said: people are diff in different coutries and you should not assume that whatever is done in america is the only way to do things.

He agreed with me....

If I had had this encounter before I was "enlightened" I would have been on the defensive and making exucses for not having ring...I have also had expereinces wher people ask
"Why do you guys worhip so many Gods?,,,,etc
I think understanding their mindset and their religion and society helps a lot in making them realize that their thinking is very parochial (koopa mandooka)

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby sanjay_chawla » 16 May 2003 03:51

Originally posted by shiv:
[QB]
The usual string of "accusations" we face are:

1)Pollution
2)Disease
3)Noise
4)Corruption
5)Religious freedom
6)Population
7)Wasting money on needless animosity vs Pakistan
8)Widesprad bride burning
9)Hindu fundamenatlists are raking up trouble for moderate Pakistan
[QB]
The human mind works through generalization. For example if an Ethopian came to me and talked about the just fight against Eriterea(sp?) I would probably feel "Why don't these guys stop fighting and feed themselves first."

If a person makes a comment which is based on ignorance then one must rationalize that he or she is not aware of the situation. Infact the best response is to say "the situation|pattern is more complex than it appears."

So I don't think ignorant perceptions about India should be treated seriously. The fact that smart Indians are being affected, if I am allowed to generalize, suggests that their is deep anxiety to be respected by somebody who may not deserve the respect to respect your value-system.

On the other hand Indian society is riddled with social-evils like bride-burning and dowry. The best thing is our founding fathers were not ashamed of accepting that and have enunciated laws to get rid of these evils. This is the greatness of India.

Regards,

Sanjay

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby chola » 16 May 2003 04:22

Shiv, the "you farted" post is one of thoughtful and enjoyable commentaries I've read in a while.

Accusing someone and then putting that person repeatedly on the defensive is really a game that powerful nations play on weaker ones.

Just like on the playground, the big bullies would do this to others but if someone dares try to do it to them they would escalate to threats and then violence so the victims of this game are always the weak.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby manju » 16 May 2003 04:41


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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 16 May 2003 06:03

National anthem ignored in utltra-hit areas

Source said the Pakistan-based Lashker-e-Toiba (LeT) had imposed a ban on the singing of national anthem in Poonch district last year, while in Doda district the Hizbul-Mujahideen (HM) had forbidden the same in 1998.


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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 16 May 2003 06:15

Originally posted by sanjay_chawla:
Originally posted by shiv:
[

So I don't think ignorant perceptions about India should be treated seriously. The fact that smart Indians are being affected, if I am allowed to generalize, suggests that their is deep anxiety to be respected by somebody who may not deserve the respect to respect your value-system.
Great and insightful comment - although I do not entirely agree.

It's not merely the question of "respect" about which you may well be entirely right, but it goes beyond that into the collective self image of society and the effect that constant criticism of "where you come from" reflects on the attitudes of young children who are not yet able to understand things like "shades of grey" or concepts like "It's more complex than that" These children watch TV, read the news and are exposed to older children and adults who constantly tell you "You are bullsh1t, and the place you come from is bullsh1t". While any young person realises that the statement may be partly correct he soon finds areas in which the statement seems wrong. But when he questions that the "proof" offered includes these "you farted" games played out in the media.

In any given year you will read about huindreds of "quality" indices and you will never find India ANYWHERE near the top of any positive indices. Some of these indices themselves are pure rubbish made up by questionable biased people who have no idea whatsoever of cultural value systems and differences. I disagree that we should ignore this.

How come we call for "press freedom" to help propagate skewed opinions and then ask that these opinions should then "be ignored"? They must not be ignored because we may not need the "respect" of undeserving people, but we need to inculcate self-respect and lack of contempt for EACH OTHER. Constant and frequently unfounded criticism does not help.

Theer is a degeree of self-image and pride in one's own ablities that children grow up with. That pride is systematically destroyed as Indian children grow and many end up with attitudes that boil down to "I may be good, but other Indians are all balls" The "proof" is all around., The noise. The pollution. The ineffciency' The corruption. The caste system. The bride burning. The riots. the minority killing. The starvation. Bad roads. Poor powers supply. Ambassador cars. Khadi gramodyog. You name it and if its bad, and "index" is made out of it and India's name is put near the bottom. That is not always correct.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 16 May 2003 06:16

What to make UnCool Hating India?
Voilate Human Rights openly!!
Kill as many Minorities as possible!
Throw all anti Indian Government and Oposition in Jails for Eternity!
Make India a Dictatorial Rule!!!
Ah! And I trust you are going ahead with this plan with expert advice from the experts your friends in Lahore?

You are "voilating" human rights "closedly" onlee now, I presume?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 16 May 2003 06:39

Originally posted by rvaidya:

I think it is required to start in this forum systematically identify the major " faults"--huge ones in the western system and go on spreading the theme and let many Indians start internalising it.
I would not "seriously" do this and I would not target ONLY the West. In many ways "the West" are good compared to China, Saudi and Japan.

ANYBODY should be fair game - especially groups that target India. And the reason I say that we must not take the game too seriously is because it is always based on questionable assumptions and not facts. Do it as fun. As a pastime to develop the mindset that gives you pride and confidence in yourself and helps you learn that the other guy has his weak spots. But the game must not be used as an excuse to cover genuine faults like Pakistan does. It needs to be an "aware, mature" game. But it must be played.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby A_Gupta » 16 May 2003 06:45

Originally posted by Kaushal:
. Each of these questions is loaded , as they say in the courtroom , with facts or inferences not yet established by evidence to be true and designed to shift the conversation from a dubious premise to a foregone conclusion.
I was reading this article, http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7747/view/print which makes similar points regarding the right and left in the US.

TP.c: You write that "liberalism has a view of discourse that puts it at a disadvantage." This brings to mind the often-heard notion that conservative talk shows, whether radio or TV, are effective in part because they put their arguments in black and white and in staccato, single-syllable terms.

Lakoff: [I]t's very important to know that if you take someone else's words or ideas and negate them, even if you are against the ideas... you support the ideas by negating them.

Now, this is how Fox News works. They will say, "We are fair and balanced. We will have a liberal and a conservative." But we have a conservative host! What the host does is, the host frames the questions, so that the liberal, even if he denies them, still supports the frame. For example, "Are you against the president's proposal for tax relief? What? You are against tax relief?"
Think about the framing of "tax relief." Relief says that taxation is an affliction, a burden that anybody who takes the affliction away is a hero and good, and anybody who is against it, wants people to suffer, right? You are against alleviating suffering?

You see how this works, and it works throughout. The conservative think tanks have worked for 40 years now, developing not just language, but modes of thought that the language fit. And they have learned it very well, and the folks at Fox News have learned it very well.

Liberals have no idea that language is not neutral, it is framed -- they walk into these things all the time. So, liberals have the idea that if you just tell people the facts, people will be rational, and reach the right conclusion. The facts will set you free. They won't! The facts unframed -- if not framed properly in the appropriate moral way, won't set you free! People won't reach the appropriate conclusions. It is very important that the facts be understood in some moral framework. The conservatives have understood that, and they frame everything they have in a moral framework....

But all liberals have a morality; it is a nurturing morality, and they haven't learned to talk in terms of that morality, and they haven't learned to frame their policies in terms of that morality....
and

P.c: We usually think of language as neutral, but you write that "the who, what, when, where and why of news reporting does not capture the complex partisan differences in metaphorical conceptual structure that lie behind the political positions of conservatives and liberals." What is it that puts liberals at a disadvantage?

Lakoff: It is not merely the language of news reporting. The conservatives understand that language is framed -- that it is not neutral, that it expresses ideas, that ideas are important, that ideas govern the way people act as well as the way they think. When they put out news releases or have interviews, they have learned to frame things very carefully.

Now, the news business, and liberals have not yet learned this -- they have not learned how to do this -- because they believe that language is neutral; that it can express neutral ideas; that simply the facts will set you free....

So the assumption is that news is objective, there is objective truth (who, what, when, where, why), that there is no particular framing that slants things one way or another, that episodes are neutral; that when you report simply one event, not looking at its context, that that is neutral, and that they are there for being fair and balanced -- whereas they very well may not be. The whole idea of news reporting, as it is taught in journalism schools, is that you can report things -- just the facts -- and get them out there: who, what, when, where, why, period.

What cognitive scientists have discovered is that this is never true. Conservatives have discovered it too. They discovered that everything has a point of view. That even the idea of episodic news, where you report the news without its context, that is a political decision on the part of the news room. That political decisions are made all the time, and they have gone out and started to make those decisions. They will put in their context on their stories. They will frame it in all sorts of ways by using appropriate language, and Fox News is completely slanted toward a conservative world-view....

Most people think that everything is neutral, and they don't notice the world-views they have, and how things are fitting in. So that the news business has not yet addressed the fact of framing, the fact of metaphorical thought, the fact that in this country you have two different conceptual systems for framing virtually every issue. They haven't tried to come to grips with it, and meanwhile, the conservatives have exploited it.
So, it is not just facts that need to be accumulated (as another thread is doing, for use in various encounters) but also the art of framing.

Further stuff at http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/7749

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby A_Gupta » 16 May 2003 08:46

The sportswriters are piling on India. Because Vijay Singh did not think that Annika S. should play on the men's tour, India and Hindus have come in for a pile of cr**; from Jon Saraceno in USA Today and now from Barker Davis in the Washington Times.

My letter to the editor :

Dear Editors,

It is wonderful how your sportswriters suddenly become experts on all kinds of sundry things. Take your Barker Davis, who in commenting on the Vijay Singh controversy, writes :

Nothing against India or Hinduism, but it's certainly
fair to say that culture hasn't been at the fore when it
comes to gender equity.

This in a country where the Augusta National Golf Club still
does not admit women members. India has had a woman head of state before the so-advanced United States, a woman supreme court justice before the so-advanced United States,a woman head of the opposition before the United States and more women heads of provincial governments than the so-advanced United States. In feminist literature, we read of Florence Kelley (1859 - 1932), one of the generation of women who first got access to higher education. She graduated from Cornell in 1882. Well, Calcutta University had its first two women graduates in 1883, Kadambini Ganguly and Chandramukhi Basu.

Please keep your sportswriters to within their sphere of competence.

Sincerely,
-Arun Gupta

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 16 May 2003 08:53

Originally posted by Arun_Gupta:

Nothing against India or Hinduism, but it's certainly
fair to say that culture hasn't been at the fore when it
comes to gender equity.
Good scathing letter Arun Gupta. You have picked up a classic game of "you farted" by these sportswrongers.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 16 May 2003 08:56

This morning at 77mph in the rain and jehadi traffic on I-85 I heard the Paki-based NPR expert Michael Sullivan's report on 34 people dying in that Golden Temple Express disaster.

Closing paragraph:

India has one of the largest railway systems in the world, carrying over 13 million people per day. But the system is antiquated, and the rails are poorly maintained, with hundreds of accidents each year
Ah! It was the poorly-maintained rails which failed to stop the train when it caught fire. Now I see.

This from a place where Amtrak trains, carrying all of a dozen passengers each, go off the rails with distressing frequency - and over 50,000 people die each year in accidents on the "large but antiquated system of roads, which are poorly maintained."

Rather than write letters, etc., or endanger other drivers and myself, I switched stations to Country Music to hear something really sophisticated for a change:

Down on the Chattachoochee...

Its hotter than hoochee-koochee...

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, baby baby baby baby baby babeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
Yesterday where I went to lunch, they were trying to GIVE AWAY copies of the Atlanta Constipation. With little luck. The only people who accepted copies were out-of-town visitors.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 16 May 2003 09:00

Nice, Arun! Everyone needs to be reminded : beating up on India, the country which has always been showing everyone the way, is both intellectually dishonest and also will not be tolerated.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Div » 16 May 2003 09:12

Does Vijay consider himself an Indian or Fijian?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 16 May 2003 09:53

This from a place where Amtrak trains, carrying all of a dozen passengers each, go off the rails with distressing frequency - and over 50,000 people die each year in accidents on the "large but antiquated system of roads, which are poorly maintained."

I have ridden the Amtrak between Oakland and Seattle.I am not enthusiastic about riding it again. The cars sway sideways far too much. The coaches are not kept clean, there is far too much debris. There are too many people scampering up and down the aisle for any kind of privacy. Sleeping in the reclining chair is only slightly more comfortable than in a plane. Food is lousy.Finally it costs more than airtravel. Give me a 2nd AC anyday over amtrak.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 16 May 2003 12:11

Does Vijay consider himself an Indian

My roots are in India: Vijay Singh
By QAISER MOHAMMAD ALI

World No. 7 player wins Skins title, mesmerizes audiences on his 2-day visit to India

NEW DELHI: Fijian golfer Vijay Singh, the world No. 7 who was here on a two-day visit in the second week of November, said that coming to India was like “coming home.”

“A lot has been said about me not recognizing my roots, which is not true,” the 2000 Augusta Master winner told reporters, referring to his Indian ancestry, before heading to Gurgaon, a town in the adjoining Haryana state, to play in a pro-am tournament with some of India’s top golfers, legendary cricketer Kapil Dev and corporate heads on Nov. 9.

“I am an Indian and my roots are Indian. My nationality is Fijian, but I am of Indian origin. Coming here is, in a sense, like coming home,” said the 39-year-old, who won three titles during the just-ended season. despite suffering from a foot injury. Singh was in India on a two-day visit, which included a pro-am competition and the more serious BILT Skins with Randhawa, Kahlon and Dev.

Singh said that when he plays, he plays seriously. “When I tee up, I expect to win every hole. That’s the way I play my game. It’s (Skins) not a Major, but it’s a big event.”

Singh had every reason to say so, as up for grabs was the highest money on offer in India’s golfing history —— $45,000. In a skins event, the players compete for prize money at each hole and one must win a hole outright to win the amount on offer. If two or more players tie, the money at a particular hole is carried forward to the next.

Ballarpur Industries Limited (BILT) had sponsored Singh’s trip and the featured show on Nov. 10 was named BILT Skins Golf with Vijay Singh. For the record, Singh won the Skins title and $21,500, Randhawa finished with a purse of $13,500, Kahlon earned $8,500 and Dev, a keen golfer, collected $1,500.

Singh, who said he knows a few of the top Indian golfers like Jeev Milkha Singh, hoped more class players would emerge from this country and Asia as a whole. “Jyoti (Randhawa) is a tremendous player, and he’s got a lot of success in Asia,” said the 6 feet, 2 inch tall Fijian.

Singh was born in Fiji but moved out of the country at 17 to seek golfing glory. He learned his golf from his father, an aircraft technician, and was lucky to have a golf course near his house on the tiny Pacific island. “He was very strict and apart from golf and hard work, I learnt discipline from him,” Singh recalled. “He taught me how to play golf.”

Although Singh rarely visits Fiji since joining the PGA Tour in 1993, as he is based in Florida with his wife Ardena Seth and 12-year-old son Qass, he said he has not forgotten his country.

Singh spoke on a wide variety of subjects, ranging from racism to his goals and from charity to his love for dogs and DVDs. He said he had never countered racism while playing, though he admitted that people in the West “look at you a little differently and say ‘what is he doing here?’”

He said his goal during the next year is to win the prestigious British Open and the U.S. Open championships. “I really don’t have to do anything else to contend for the No. 1 spot,” said the man who is fourth on the career money leaders’ list with $18.28 million.

Singh said although the USPGA Tour itself is all about charity, he runs his own charity back in the U.S. And what does he do when he isn’t playing golf? He either watches DVDs from his 2,000-strong collection or plays with his six dogs, besides indulging with son Qass, who is already a “decent golfer” at 12.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby chola » 16 May 2003 13:14

Like everyone else I've been a big fan of Vijay for years but this time I wished he had thought before he spoke.

I feel he had come out on the side of intolerance.

What if a white man had said he would not play with an Indian because he has taken the spot of another caucasian? What if he said to Vijay that he should stay in Asia because the prize money in the PGA tour is reserved for westerners?

This is not quite a "you farted" game. Vijay drew attention to himself in a very public way because he wanted to make a point. I'm glad he's not a wilting willow like most NRIs when asked about their opinions. But making such a strong point here by actually saying that he'll refuse to play with the female golfer is very troubling.

I am most uncomfortable with this, to say the least. I actually found myself defending Vijay Singh yesterday with a white female colleague while in my heart I felt his stance was wrong.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby A_Gupta » 16 May 2003 18:22

What Vijay Singh seems to upset about, apart from any possibility of playing against a woman or being beaten by her, is that this woman has not had to come through qualifying rounds. Annika Sorenstam received a sponsor's exemption (but apparently some men get these exemptions too).

"Nick Price, the defending champion at Colonial, has said Sorenstam's presence ''reeks of publicity.'' He thinks she ought to qualify if she wants to prove herself at the highest level. "

So, it is not just Vijay Singh. I don't approve of his attitude or his comments, but to convert this into a discussion of India, Hinduism, that Vijay Singh is the descendant of indentured laborers, etc., is simply too much.

But take a look at the stories :

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=309395
http://washingtontimes.com/sports/20030515-17286986.htm
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=309391

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 16 May 2003 18:32

I have ridden the Amtrak between Oakland and Seattle.I am not enthusiastic about riding it again. The cars sway sideways far too much. The coaches are not kept clean, there is far too much debris. There are too many people scampering up and down the aisle for any kind of privacy. Sleeping in the reclining chair is only slightly more comfortable than in a plane. Food is lousy.Finally it costs more than airtravel. Give me a 2nd AC anyday over amtrak.
I know a young man who got a PhD in Aerospace engineering. In the process he learned a great deal about how planes are built, and perhaps this had something to do with his firm determination not to fly. He was called by the famous "Skunk Works" for a job interview, and he demanded a week's time to get there, because he had to ride the train.

He came back a firm believer in taking planes. Kaushal here obviously missed one of the other great benefits of train travel in America - a carriage empty except for yourself and one other passenger. Especially when said passenger stretches, yawns, and says:

Ah need a woman! I ain't had one in over twenty years - bin in danged prison
At least on planes they put the hardened criminals and other ENRON type executives in Business Class...

Now WHY am I writing this sort of garbage from my "collection"?

(Come to think of it: 2000 DVDs? I wonder if V. Singh has heard of www.netflix.com ? )

Perhaps because I have decided to "relax some restraints". That report with the totally gratuitous, hate-filled closing paragraph from Michael Sullivan did it.

Every time you refer to Britain or America, remember to close with a paragraph like these oiseules like Sullivan use with those sanctimonious nasal tones.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Guest » 16 May 2003 18:37

You're exxagerating I think. It is the ability to laugh at yourself and at your own country. You're opening yourself to other views.

The English and most other European countries have this, like many progressive people in the Western world. It is a sign of maturity and willingness to attempt to look at your own nation in an objective manner.

Nationalism is a scary thing, "My country, right or wrong", is a very scary attitude to have and most nationalist probably cannot even fathom that their country might be wrong... No real discussion is possible if this is the case. And the only means to solve the matter would be by other means to decide who is the strongest and not who is in the right...

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 16 May 2003 19:36

Forget about Vijay Singh, there has not been a single high ranking male golfer say out loud 'that this is a wonderful thing' (that annike sorenstam is playing with the men). Most dont want to be politically incorrect but feel she wont rank in the top ten. They hem and haw when asked the question. Reminds me of the Billie jean King tennis match against a 50 year old hustler, 30 years ago.These events are gimmicks to part you with your money.

I dont understand why some women see the need to compete with men and go through all the hassle (pumping iron etc.) instead of being who they are - different.Women in sports are interesting to watch in their own right and dont have to compete with men. Good luck to annike but this is a tempest in a teapot and now it has degenerated into racist comments about Hinduism.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 16 May 2003 19:59

Yes, Vijay should have kept his mouth shut and went along just to be PC. He had no business saying anything about Sorenstam.

But when the Western media takes anger against Vijay Singh's remarks out on India as a whole, that crosses the line. Blast the guy for what he said, not India. GoI etc did *not* issue any statement about Annika. So why anger against India.

Is it because its the accepted thing to do?

So its up to us to let the media know that it is no longer accepted or tolerated. Did India call US a child molesting country just because some priest here in US did it? No.

So media, that's the point. See?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 16 May 2003 21:02

Most American sports writers and commentators (with some notable exceptions) in the US have the cultural awareness of a tribesman from Borneo (I dont mean to insult Borneo tribesman). Best to let this whole thing blow over.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby A_Gupta » 16 May 2003 21:25

Originally posted by esenes:
You're exxagerating I think. It is the ability to laugh at yourself and at your own country. You're opening yourself to other views.

The English and most other European countries have this, like many progressive people in the Western world. It is a sign of maturity and willingness to attempt to look at your own nation in an objective manner.
First, laughing at yourself is somewhat different from others laughing at you. Second laughing with others at yourself is different when you are an equal with the others (it is maturity) and when you are less than equal (it is then demeaning).


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