Why has it become so cool to hate India

Kuttan
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 09 May 2003 01:55

On third thoughts, why don't all these people go drown?
Physics, Ashishji. To quote Dr. Winchester of M*A*S*H 4077:

Even in the sewers, the cream always rises to the top

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 09 May 2003 01:55

IMO the "wisdom" that had been taught to Indians (you are no good) has sunk in very deeply, and will take a generation to be shed. Like the old socialist policies have sunk in and are being shed slowly.

Very few people want to think for themselves what is good for them. What is the need to think when "wisdom" has been given, that too by the wealthy Lords of the Raj?

"There is nothing a man will not do to avoid thinking"
-Mark Twain

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 09 May 2003 01:57

N^3
:D :rotfl:

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby svinayak » 09 May 2003 01:59

Why does India have such one sided authors who most of the times have no supporting evidence, and more importantly,

What is the purpose of the article.
Who are the target audience.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JE Menon » 09 May 2003 02:04

>>I have just sent, upon specific request, my famous article on the LCA to a 12-year-old who was doing a comparison of various external and internal weapons-carriage options for fighter aircraft, and the implications for Stealth and performance. Will keep you informed if I get any reviews.

Keep us posted N, if there are no problems in doing so.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby bhavani » 09 May 2003 02:14

Originally posted by sbajwa:
What I don't understand is that

1. Political qualifications of Dilip D'Souza to call for foreign invitation.

2. Scientific qualifications of Vishal Thapar to dismiss LCA as non-indigeneous.

3. Technological qualifications of Praful Bidwai to dismiss India's IT successes as measly 3/1000.

These guys should at least try to learn something before writing or limit themselves to their area.

I think they are getting paid by ISI or CIA for such disinformation
i Liked what you said. these fools must first know what are thier qualifications and are they qualified to speak on every thing, from fighter jets to IT.
i think we dont need to waste bandwidth thinking about fools like arundhati roy, DDsuzi or whatever.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby James Bund » 09 May 2003 02:30

Untill India develops a 1 to 2 trillion dollar economy sab kuchh maya hai.Once that is done the Rupaiah will do more persuasive talking than the most eloquent and well-informed Indian.

You see the economy is needed to boost India's standing not with only the west but the pen-to-paper-bypassingthehemispheres-crowd.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Sunil » 09 May 2003 02:33

Some things that come to mind. These are observations and not suggestions.

Actually as Narayanan points out and as some people prove, so long as your writing style is forceful, you can make the argument stick. For example all over the internet you see a vast number of Pakistani sites that preach anti India hatred. This is mainly a way of making the message forceful. The same thing applies to hacker attacks, the main purpose is to portray a very visible reinforcement of a basic theme.

The `basic theme' is a fairly simple story that people can easily relate to. The Pakistanis have their "Home for Muslims in South Asia" concept which they lay maximum emphasis on. Similarly the Israeli writers use the Holocaust, American writers use things like `freedom' and `liberty' in their writings. The more seductive the core ideologically, the easier it is to put in any context.

The referencing etc... that usually increases the durability of the piece but its utility in perception management is quite poor, if you are looking for instant results.

As for people like Dilip Dsouza, Arundhati Roy etc.. pan-national agendas like human rights, global food projects, environmentalism, are replacing communism as the principal motivators of global subversives. So Dilip calling for Iraq style invasion of the US, is no different from other stalwarts in the Leftist press who called for a Chinese invasion of India. These people are tolerated because if you do get rid of them, their sponsors will simply find someone more subversive.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 09 May 2003 02:43

Couldn't agree more with Bajwaji here - consider the fact that the woman (Aparna Kalra) who wrote "Why I love Salman Khan" last week - essentially, a panygeric on Salman, has moved up in life this week. In TOI, she writes on the double-speak in the whole INdia-Pak issue.

Consequently and by extension, what is wrong with Bidwai writing on IT issues? :D :D


What I don't understand is that
1. Political qualifications of Dilip D'Souza to call for foreign invitation.
2. Scientific qualifications of Vishal Thapar to dismiss LCA as non-indigeneous.
3. Technological qualifications of Praful Bidwai to dismiss India's IT successes as measly 3/1000.
These guys should at least try to learn something before writing or limit themselves to their area.


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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby AshishN » 09 May 2003 02:47

IMO India's motto (the core around which we build arguments directed at educating US, people who look Indian but are not, the brainwashed etc) should be:

"India has always been tolerant to a fault. Indians think everything will be alright. Many people have taken advantage of this Indian ethos and many are actively engaged in coming up with novel ways of taking advantage while lining their own pockets, and building their own empires".

And then you give examples...

(I have exhausted my quota of thinking deeply for the day). :)

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby sujitb » 09 May 2003 02:50

check this out from BBC about an accident in rajasthan - idia hating at it's best!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3008829.stm

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nikhil Shah » 09 May 2003 03:00

Arindam, good stuff!

Narayanan, too many pot-shots may one day break the pot :)

Regarding your article to Kangress, is this the same one that was put together to signify and magnify the timeline?

Sunil - You are correct about forceful writing. Same as Advertisement and Brand Recognition. India has been lacking in these efforts simply because India has always stood for Truth. And instead of being modest about it, we should rub it in everybody's face. We are not home to the a particular community and neither are we chest-thumping-banner-raizing home for liberty or he-man style good vs evil. We are a home for TRUTH which is above good and evil. And GOD is where TRUTH is.

That is my story and I am sticking to it :)

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Prem » 09 May 2003 03:00

Untill India develops a 1 to 2 trillion dollar economy sab kuchh maya hai.Once that is done the Rupaiah will do more persuasive talking than the most eloquent and well-informed Indian.

You see the economy is needed to boost India's standing not with only the west but the pen-to-paper-bypassingthehemispheres-crowd.
--------------------------------------------------

Bund sahib, ur right,This is the key, with the trillion dollar economy we can have big pursuasive stick. With Money and Danda one dont need to be eloquent (GEorge Bush), every one get the right message when power talk. Till then one can talk and but cannot walk the talk.The power flow from $$$ barrel now a days. Once India get rich ,the empty handed, empty minded psuedo indians like Dinesh, fullfool, wagha wallas type will be the first to claim the pot and glory. Till then we just have to live with some namak-harams who has nothing postive to do but cause harm. Like some one said every dog has his day, let these dogs have their day now , they are of dying breed, hense getting desperate.
Just like our Northern neighbour, we just ought to make economy our priority ,and soon $$$ will be the only cool talk about India.

Prem

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Raman » 09 May 2003 03:25

Originally posted by bhavani:
...i think we dont need to waste bandwidth thinking about fools like arundhati roy, DDsuzi or whatever.
bhavani,

I used to follow your style of reasoning, but it's begining to dawn on me that these guys are not doing what they're doing due to lack of information/understanding. I believe that many Indians who have a self-defeatist attitude do so because that's the only thing they have been told --- they simply do not have access to information that shows otherwise. The post-colonial after-shock zeitgeist is minimal (in my opinion).

The SH!Ts, on the other hand, have access to any kind of information they can possibly want. Hell, they are in the information business. They could so easily access the facts and published it in a truly unbiased way. Instead, they deliberately malign what is Indian. Although it sounds like a conspiracy theory, when observed over time, the "reporting" of the Indian press definitely appears to be motivated by a subversive ideology.

The following point may be arguable, and Shiv may have something to say about this, but I blame the Indian print media for the self-defeatist malaise that plagues the Indian psyche.

Unfortunately, it appears that sitting back and watching is not going to make this problem go away. BRF and BRM are a huge asset in terms of intellectual capital and visibility in countering the schemes of the Indian press. I wish we could spread the word.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shashidhar » 09 May 2003 03:39

Yup, we talk about leftists,DDM etc etc.But have we reflected on whether some are really paid by phoren intel?Could it just be possible that phoren funds are running our media?Could it be that the Green card and $$$ could have the same effect on Indians as Iraqis :p

There is no dearth of those who sell their mothers in our nation as well.

But the key is what have we done??How about socially outcasting those a la Dixie chicks???

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Gayatri » 09 May 2003 04:47

When I think about it, I feel the one thing that is drilled into our custom is "fate"/"grace"

anything good happens it is because of something external, not really because of your hardwork/intelligence, and you are not really praised nor really allowed to feel totally good...

for instance - good marks in exam -
you are told "I told you! see, if you go to Shiva temple on pradosham and place your exam entrance card on the lingam you are gauranteed success"

OR the other extreme -
"oh you could not get full marks ? why not ?"
"hmm, could've done better"

This can be extended to anything
- and my feeling is that we do this crap to ourselves and others (Indians) and thus cant really appreaciate .

I feel if we start it at home to ourselves, we will go a long way treating others with more respect and appreciation.
This of course is for the majority junta, bent upon beating themselves on their heads or sulking off in the corner after doing all the work.

For the traitors - I think once majority junta becomes emotionally stronger, these traitors would not dare to write such crap and get mowed by angry protests.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kaushal » 09 May 2003 05:30

I feel if we start it at home to ourselves, we will go a long way treating others with more respect and appreciation.

Very perceptive.

Start treating other Indians with courtesy, grace, dignity and respect and as individuals regardless of status. Address everybody as 'aap'- of course there is no equivalent in English . If we do that to ourselves, others will treat us with far more respect. For starters, the BR forum is a good place to start practicing.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Arvind » 09 May 2003 05:49

Originally posted by Gayatri Srinivasan:
When I think about it, I feel the one thing that is drilled into our custom is "fate"/"grace"
anything good happens it is because of something external, not really because of your hardwork/intelligence, and you are not really praised nor really allowed to feel totally good...
Many reasons for this: 1) Pride is not good especially in youngsters. A good report card may be used a display to show that you are better than your peers, when you really may no tbe better. Moderation is not a bad quality.

2) There is nothing wrong believing in fate- India is a country of great uncertainties where rewards for observation of certain protocols are not assured. More often than not frustration meets people and a few from the masses really succeed. So there is a pyschological mechanism to take failure in the masses.

3) We are defeated civilization on the slow and uncertain path of recovery, so some shakiness in attitudes may be expected.

Remember history can wreak havoc on the pysche: Al Biruni had said of the same Indians, 10 centuries ago that they were a self centered and arrogant lot. His patron had set the wheel rolling to crush the Indic self confidence. We came out of this bloodstained passage only 55 years ago and need sometime to recover.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby shiv » 09 May 2003 07:30

Originally posted by Gayatri Srinivasan:
When I think about it, I feel the one thing that is drilled into our custom is "fate"/"grace"

anything good happens it is because of something external, not really because of your hardwork/intelligence, and you are not really praised nor really allowed to feel totally good...
Excellent insight Gayatri - a true psychobabble worthy (IOW a qualified forum piskologist)

I have noticed another tendency in "curse and rant about all that is Indian" articles, and I am still struggling to make the mental links I require to describe it with a suitably illustrative analogy. I may be wrong - but it goes something like this:

There is a tendency among rant writers of whine articles of using good language control to dramatise and hype and emotionalise an issue beyond available evidence. They use the written word to play with emotions rather than sticking to dry facts and informing by reason. They seek to move by emotion.

"Available evidence" is a scientific concept of objectivity that does not allow dramatization. But evidence and objectivity are not requirements for dramatization.

Drama, as in "graphic, explicit and colorful and emotive" is a very Indian form of expression. Hindi movies are an example, and another example (for those who have seen both) are the 8 hour english play "Mahabharata" made by phoren (Can't recall now) - with no big colorful sets/costumes - but capturing the essence of the story. Compare withteh mega serial "Mahabharat" - same story much color and drama. Both had their appeal, but the latter was obviously very Indian in its appeal and could be described as "garish" in Western terms.

Indian writers tend to do that. They end up sounding like my grandmother who would actually shed tears and weep about starving people in Bengal or somewhere if I failed to eat every last bit of that horrible brinjal curry. The perspective is lost, and what is carried forward is misinformation.

The reason for such a long post is to remind myself (and perhaps others too) to actively search for instances of undue dramatization for the sake of drama or prose, to an extent that objectivity is lost.

I wonder if people who teach "writing" inIndia are doing this.

Don't really know.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 09 May 2003 07:32

Hauma:

On a national scale, the perspectives such as "we need time to.." are appropriate. However, people like me deal with specifics, one human mind at a time. No sense in waiting around another half-century (which will in all probability go beyond the narayanan era, which defines my Event Horizon).

So we've got to act. Now. When opportunity presents, and we have to MAKE those opportunities.

A "column" like D'Souza appears - expose it as the stinking refuse that it is. Expose the low quality of writers like him. Hit (verbally, mind you!) while people still can see and remember what we're mad about.

Once in a while I may have time to come up and see if there are grander effects of such an action. But usually, we foot-soldiers are too busy taking aim at the individual enemies to have this luxury.

I see no reason why any individual Indian or Indian- XXXXX (fill in any country you want) should be negative about India, based on clear observation of our history and present. That's not "jingoism" as the D'Souzas claim - its careful observation of reality. Its also not any attempt to gloss over the huge remaining "Opportunities for Improvement" - starting with the removal of these damned traitors from positions of influence.

I am tired of the cynical lies about "Kashmir", "Pokhran", LCA, GSLV, DRDO, charitable agencies, Northeast, whatever. If the dorks attack India, attack them where it hurts. No reason for patience or grander perspective.

Like I said early on - Has REDIFF withdrawn that column and issued a clear apology? Has D'Souza? If the answer is "NO", then they deserve absolutely no consideration.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Arvind » 09 May 2003 12:08

Originally posted by narayanan:
So we've got to act. Now. When opportunity presents, and we have to MAKE those opportunities.
Agreed, I am not at all suggesting inaction. I was just stating that we should not be frustrated at the so called "fatalism" of Indians on an average. It was required in the past as a survival mechanism, and now that we have made it so far we may change our attitudes. But this cannot happen at the wave of a magical wand.

Like I said early on - Has REDIFF withdrawn that column and issued a clear apology? Has D'Souza? If the answer is "NO", then they deserve absolutely no consideration.
I am not all suggesting relenting in the fight against the traitors. Nor are we sitting and doing nothing with respect to the immediate issue. There many aspects to it and each may do their little bit that may not be seen by others. Of course I am only doing little things- but hey we are foot soldiers. At the risk of sounding stupid, I must say that I worked on my family, ex-batchmates, other Indian acquaintences to cleanse their mind of the delusions of Indian Abroad and to spot and prevent the agents of Bijugand from selling their crap. Of course these are small things, but then we also need people to analyze the more global picture. For example in course of such analysis it became apparent that DilipD, Saisuresh and Diwanji were traitors around two years ago when they were observed cosying up with elements from the terrorist state.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby jaikiran » 09 May 2003 12:34

i have no great insights on this topic "Why is it cool to hate India".neither have any snippets or articles to post.

can i add though that India's power at the table will and shall be her economic/moral/military strength.not what madam roy or messr bidwai write in some dailies.

my two cents!!!

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Tamang » 09 May 2003 13:53

another example...
Link

Isolate fundamentalists: Indian, Pak MPs

PTI[ FRIDAY, MAY 09, 2003 11:41:11 AM ]

NEW DELHI: Pakistani and Indian parliamentarians on Friday agreed to "isolate" fundamentalist forces in both countries in a bid to remove obstacles in the way of normalisation of bilateral relations, CPI-M leader Somnath Chatterjee said.

"Both sides agreed that fundamentalist forces existed in the two countries and were hampering the process of establishment of peace. These forces should be isolated," Chatterjee said after he hosted breakfast for the visiting 13-member Pakistani parliamentarian delegation which arrived here on Thursday.

"While the visiting delegation was led by Member of National Assembly Ishaq Khan Khakwani, the Indian side was represented among others by former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda, Congress leaders Shivraj Patil and Saifuddin Soz, Samajwadi Party chief Mulayam Singh Yadav and CPI(M) MPs Nilotpal Basu, Rupchand Pal, Hannan Mollah and A K Premajam."

ek se badkar ek!

"The two sides felt there was "no reason" why peace, friendship and mutual cooperation between India and Pakistan could not be re-established, the CPI(M) leader said, adding they also sought increased people-to-people contacts."

Really Mr Chatterji....no reason?

Chatterjee said the discussions were "very friendly" and "we had a heart-to-heart talk" on various issues.

btw only English media publishes these kind of reports, whereas vernacular press is not...why?

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Raj Singh » 09 May 2003 18:11

Kaushal

Let me say at the outset that my intention is not to upset/offend and what I am saying is without any malice whatsoever. Intention is to convey a message/put a point across.

Start treating other Indians with courtesy, grace, dignity and respect and as individuals regardless of status. Address everybody as 'aap'- of course there is no equivalent in English . If we do that to ourselves, others will treat us with far more respect. For starters, the BR forum is a good place to start practicing.
There is a saying to the effect, preaching is easier than practice. Anyone can preach but when it comes to practice .......well, that seems to be the case here. Even in this particular instance, not only the person has not been addressed to directly whose words have been quoted by the writer but it has not been even acknowledged that who wrote the words which have been quoted. Some would say, among few other things, this is a height of arro..... and this is not the first time that it has happened. Even when the writer is addressed directly, the writer deliberately (?)refuses to acknowledge...is it that the writer has been doing for so long that he does not even know that what he is doing, in this respect and does not realise that what actually the writer is doing or should do ...or is it that it is being done deliberately? Well, perhaps we will know soon enough...

Would have been better had the writer/addressee led by example and practised what is being preached...

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Umrao » 09 May 2003 18:34

Pride, Humility, Self Confidence, Arrogance
Curtsy (aka Chamchagiri)are confused abstract nouns in modern India.

Especially Curtsy in public life or in trans actions between public and public servant is entirely screwed up.

But this very same curtsy swings back to its normal understanding when the individuals get to know each other.

When FOB from India it calls for tremendous adjustments and fine tuning on the part of the individual.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby venkat_r » 09 May 2003 19:47

Originally posted by Hauma Hamiddha:
[QBMany reasons for this: 1) Pride is not good especially in youngsters. A good report card may be used a display to show that you are better than your peers, when you really may no tbe better. Moderation is not a bad quality.
[/QB]
Well, I do not agree to this at all. In fact Pride is something that has to be instilled in the youngsters along with humility. Ego is bad, but they have to be taught how to take pride in many things especially about themselves. I think thats what keeps them going when they grow up.

I feel if we start it at home to ourselves, we will go a long way treating others with more respect and appreciation
Nice. Very important to understand what we can do to change things. Very good.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby VirenH » 09 May 2003 20:30

narayanan: see no reason why any individual Indian or Indian- XXXXX (fill in any country you want) should be negative about India, based on clear observation of our history and present.
Living in US, I've noticed that for some Indians, it has become cool to <strike>hate</strike> degrade India especially in front of the gora shaibs. Reminds me of a incident during my days as a MS student. Local ISA (Indian Students Association) had nominated one of the Indian students (good looks, vocabulary, public speaking skills etc) to represent India in a Q & A answer session meant for International students in US. To our horror while on stage all she could talk about India was sati, poverty, corruption etc. Mind you narayanan, this lady who represented India, had 2 Masters degree in India, very well 'educated' and the kind who kept herself upto date with current affairs. Needless to say, at end of the session, even the representative of Eithopia came across as more proud of his country then we Indians were!!

Another I can recall - couple years ago, while in a business meeting, a peer (known for his TSP leanings - apparently he was in Peshwar during 80s Afghan cold war) mocked me by asking if all Indians drink urine as he had heard that Indians did so. With a straight face, I asked him if all Americans were cannibals coz I had heard of one Jeffery Dalphmer who eat humans! Mind you this was in a business meeting with my boss and couple other members of our dept (all Americans). Guess my dealings with everyone in that room just got a bit better as they knew that I wouldn't brown nose (pun intended) anyone and don't take s*it from anyone one some issues close to heart.

Point I'm trying to make is as 'ordinary' Indians how many of us really view themselves as unoffical ambassadors of India in front of non-Indians? Yes we have problems (so does everyone else IMHO), but when you talk about India please keep in mind what the country has really achieved and contributed to this world and what it has offered you. If you see another Indian (be it friend, spouse or sibling), indulging in such behavior just for the sake of it, please educate / enlighten the poor soul. Eventually this message will bubble up to the paymasters of Dilip D'Souza, Pankaj Mishra etc.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Kuttan » 09 May 2003 22:58

With a straight face, I asked him if all Americans were cannibals coz I had heard of one Jeffery Dalphmer who eat humans!
Jeffrey Dahlmer Viren! Gotta keep these kinds of missiles handy.. :D

Long time back, there was an arrogant Virginian student who sat across from me and explained to my graduate school classmate that there was a good reason why Indians were so good in school - they studied when Americans were partying! I calmly explained that as Charles Bronson said in "Telefon", "Everyone should do what they do best".

The same worthy then tried to be even smarter. Asked me if it was true that in India there were cows walking all over the streets. I told them that as a child I used to go to school regularly riding on my pet tiger. Their eyes went wide as saucers - and I kept this up for a whole minute with a straight face ( at one minute there was a grave danger that my friend would burst out :rotfl: ) before explaining to them:

"Only way a small kid like me could avoid being run over by all the cows galloping on the road".

Red faces, glum expressions. Lots of laughter. End of harassment.

Any of us can relate to many such stories. Which is why my contempt level is rather high, for the "experts" like DDSouza who declare that none of REDIFF's North American readers are qualified to speak about India. The D'Souzas of this world will never understand what its like to live every day constantly reminded that one is INDIAN. Different. And its one's choice to decide whether that is good or bad. I decided decades ago that it was great.

Your pretty MS grad is probably a "South Asia Professor" today making a living smearing India.

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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby manju » 09 May 2003 23:10

Rajesh
Member
Member # 2816

posted 08 May 2003 01:22 PM

Bravo Arindam! It's imperative that the bias of these Self Hating Indian Toadies is continually and
consistently exposed. It's important to note how the filth printed by these SH!Ts is very conveniently
used to launch psy-ops against India.

Is this article published? Unfortunately, the only person whose refutations of such ridiculous claims
has wide coverage in the mass media is Varsha Bhosle. It would be great if some magazines gave
BRF a weekly or biweekly column to enable us to set the record straight and raise the public's
awareness of security and strategic issues --- a simpler and more widely-distributed version of BRM
for the common man. Any magazine editors lurking?
------------------------------------------------------------------

OR proably a newslwtter. To start with it could be a weekly or fortnightly...Initially we could all send it to our friends, relatives...To start with it could be small and we could all send it as attatchement. There is not dearth of talent and knwoledge here on the forum and people write very nicely. I have learnt a lot in the last year just by lurking here.

Eventually we could move on to having hard copies of the letters. I am willing to do whatever I can. At the present time I am willing to make a small financial contribution (monthly)...atleast $50/month as long as I am in US. This may not be much but I bet there will be many who will be willing to contribute in cash and kind ( write articles and co-ordinate).......

My dream... say in the next 3-5 years a news source (daily or a weekly magazine) with mass subscription....... and this will allow Indians and India lovers to concentrate on constructive things with real benefites rahter than trying it to put out fires set by the DDM arsonists...

svinayak
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby svinayak » 09 May 2003 23:25

With a straight face, I asked him if all Americans were cannibals coz I had heard of one Jeffery Dalphmer who eat humans!

I would love to see the faces at the moment.

The D'Souzas of this world will never understand what its like to live every day constantly reminded that one is INDIAN. Different.

mohankk
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby mohankk » 09 May 2003 23:41

Self-Hating Indians by Arindam is quite topcal. I have been living overseas for close to two decades now and have come across many educated and well settled Indians - in Oz - who in public talk down about India specifically - in front of non-Indians .The same worthies live and lead a perfectly Indian way of life at home & enjoy associating with Indian cultural events , may make - once a year visit to their relatives in India. However they for some unknown reason are pretty apologatic for being born Indian and having a skin color that makes them standout. I am unable to understand such people and where they are coming from - with this sort of attitude.

VirenH
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby VirenH » 09 May 2003 23:41

narayanan:
>>North American readers are qualified to speak about India

My friends who visit me from India are surprised that I know more about India than them (Thanks BRF :) ). As one said, you can get out of India, but can't get India out of you.

>>manju: OR proably a newslwtter
Hey admins: How easy or difficult is it with your existing architecture to setup a listserver? There could be a monthly/fortnightly newsletter (kinda like BRM lite) which gets emailed to subscribers. This will keep print and distribution costs low. More later if this is possible.

JCage
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JCage » 10 May 2003 00:26

Bravo Arindam.
Beautiful article.Perhaps whats amazing is the conciseness with which several ( typical) examples of reportage have been elucidated and their insidiousness demonstrated.

In particular,really liked the bit about defending "xyz"'s right to free speech,but how these jokers had gone over the top.

At the end of the day calling a spade a spade and proving such worthies such as Akhila Raman,D'Souza,ARoy dishonest is worth its weight in gold.They may call us dirty plebeians "hindu fascists","nationalists","Rabid bigots" or this or that.Who the F*** cares.What matters is we show them to be what they are.All the time.Every time.

JCage
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby JCage » 10 May 2003 00:39

Made this comment about Fareed Zakaria in the US-India thread.
JUmrao noted that this might be relevant here

Fareed Zakaria.

First time i read his viewpoints i barfed.Chap is an articulate WASP wannabe.He thinks he's white-and no this isnt meant as a racist comment but as an indicator of his attitude-his body language,his tone of speech and comments indicate that he's superior.Hence white as in Lily white.Superior to the poor sods who are living over in india.Well,he's not Indian at any rate.

Hence given the Indian fascination for "our boys who make it big" this nobody was invited for some IToday meet -lots of speeches by intellectuals /global thinkers-Toffler etc and Zakaria was given a lot of weight,scope and "respect" etc.After all an Indian guy powerful in Videsh.Only problem.He doesnt think "he is one of the boys".As far as he is concerned,India is just another "third world country" and he's doing us a favour by telling us heathens whats wrong.in the meantime,he'll put in a word of praise for the brave,martial "leadership" of Pakistan which is putting order in place unlike the "anarchy" in India and the non functional "democracy".

People like Zakaria make me wary.What disgusts me is the way the Indian "thinkers" fete them and lick their toes.Servile bootlicking is perhaps the most odious remainant of our "colonial heritage";added to this the belief that "he's better,coz he's big over there." For Gods sake,there are enough NRI's who have done far more than such talking heads; heads who frankly dont give a sh1t for us,nor do they like us much.

A friend flipped through his book-latest one.Said it was full of the most debased cliches about India.Big surprise.
Frankly,instead of such types,India will do better by reinforcing its links with the "common NRI's" more.Most of whom care about their country far more than such jokers.And would -i believe-aid anyday wrt improving their nations image/ perception abroad.And act against 24/7 propoganda mounted by Pakis and Pakjabis.As well as their Cohenesque supporters.

Regards,
Nitin

Anindya
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Anindya » 10 May 2003 00:42

nitin, your post on the LCA helped get things rolling. thanx.

Gayatri
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Gayatri » 10 May 2003 01:01

Thanks guys!

I have thought about that ingredient, that thing in us that makes us so proud of our nation, patriotic and trying to chip in positively -
we were all born in the same country, similar society, educational setup, etc
but what is different about the minority that really care about India, whereas the majority is apathetic to downright traitorous ?

Some things I notice is
a)knowledge - outside of India and Indian society

b)knowledge of Vedic heritage and Indian history - the precious ancestral treasure that we have full of gems, lessons, intricate knowledge in various fields that has been woven into our traditions.

c)a sharp brain
that is good in analysing and looking at the bottomline and big picture
[this is across social strata, profession etc]

and lastly because of a), b) and c),
produces
d)Self confidence and a healthy sense of Identity

in a lighter, dreamier mood - sometimes I fantasise that some of the passionate patriotic Indians in these modern times are freedom fighters reborn to save our India once again -wouldn't that be cool :) )

---------------------------------------
I want to tell you all one incident in NY:
One day my boss was talking to me, and I said . "oh yes,I saw her in the lift"
he looked a bit confused and then said "oh ya, that is british for elevator - you were colonies right ?"
Immediately, I sat erect, looked him in the eye and said in a firm tone "We drove them away"
and he replied smiling "we drove them away too"
then we both had twinkling eyes ;)
-------------------------------------

GGanesh
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby GGanesh » 10 May 2003 01:10

This idi0t doesnt realize that his ancestors, Konkani Brahmins like mine were subjected to all sorts of torture
The Inquisition by the Catholic (a misnomer, if ever there was one) clergy in Goa on innocent hindus, including cutting breasts of women in front of their husbands and children so that they could "see the mercy of their Lord Jesus Christ", is significant for two reasons:

(1) Its barbarism surpasses anything that even islamic invaders of yore perpetrated on innocent hindus and
(2) To a man, the Goan christian refuses to acknowledge these atrocities.

Nikhil Shah
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nikhil Shah » 10 May 2003 01:25

Gayatri:

I wonder who would I be :)

Regarding the comment about what drives some of Indians to say silly things when in public about Indian ways but are perfpectly normal with Indian crowd, I believe I can contribute towards the explaination. It is a combination of saying things without thinking too much about it without any malice in heart, trying to be cool by making fun of self/country - joker category, a feeling that stating opposite of stereotype may make them unpopular or even be targetted for their ethnicity, simple lack of understanding amoung others about the world outside US and subsequent lack of discussions on realistic scenarios. Ofcourse there are those who are full of contempt for their own country because of their personal lack of achievevent and low self-esteem. Somehow blaming it on India which is 10000 miles away gives them an escape.

I think BR and articles like Arndam has a great role to play in this regard.

Prateek
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Prateek » 10 May 2003 01:51

Why has it become so cool to hate India

The simple reasoning is that You can talk anything to your mother and still escape!

The tolerance limit for the mother with her children is like that! It's up to the mother to decide when to draw the line and when not to. Not punishing the acts like this in the very begining can lead to the disasters. Such acts should be contained by the law, otherwise such mother will be called a bad mother. But sadly, india has been a slightly BAD mother.

India is like our mother nation. Ba$....s (Sorry, IMO, only these scums can call a foreign invasion on their very own motherland, however intelligently they spin it!) like DD'souza know that they can say anything against their own mother nation and still live on, infact become popular. In a country where the likes of Phoolan Devi, who was supposed to spend the rest of her lifetime in the jail, can become an MP or a minister, articles like these from teh Dilips, Roy's and the Bidwais are expected. Sad, but it is a fact.

Today they call for the foreign invasion. Tomorrow many people notice it and some more may join their voice with these scums. This feeble voice can tomorrow become a strong voice asking for an independent Christian nation in Goa or Tripura (just an example). But if the things are let go off the hook early, this may happen. This is how the separatist moves sprout and begin to take shape. GOI, should bringin the STRICT laws to draw a line as to what can be said against India and what can not be said, and implement them.

Anyone remember that the recent election constitution amendment wanted the contestants to declare more details about the contestant, there was a BIG hangama in the Parliament. Our own law makers, decided to give the eligibility to the contestant even if he has one severe conviction in criminal cases. Our law makers can be Criminals ! In such an environment one has to ponder as to what's wrong with idiots like these and what they write.

Lots of internal interospection and the cleaning up of thoughts needs to be done among the Indians and especially the voters who elect their representatives.

Nandu
BRF Oldie
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Re: Why has it become so cool to hate India

Postby Nandu » 10 May 2003 01:51

Hi, I wasn't aware that Barry Bearak had tracked down one of the Chattisinghpora mass murderers to Pakistan. Can I have a link to or copy of this article? Googling didn't help. Thanks in advance.


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